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[Izuna]

How can we tell what's social conditioning and whats inherent to sexuality regarding attractiveness? People are born with different traits such as sexuality and gender, but does society play a role in shaping what we find attractive? Are your genes deciding whether you like factors such as weight, height, skin tone, and biological identity, or is it social conditions that effect your perceptions?

If it's inherently genetic and in reality its something no one can control then I agree with you it doesn't matter. If it's born from societal conditions, then in reality it may be slightly problematic, and it would need to be analysed further.

I fucking hear you man.

My girlfriend did not find black men so attractive, and even being asked out by many she hadn't said yes. I didn't find chubby Japanese girls attractive. After a certain event in our relationship she opened up an OKcupid years after dating me, and her preferences changed to looking for black men.

But just because something IS nurtured, doesn't make it horrible. When the world gets more mixed people will have a broader range of preferences. There is no need to force this and make everyone who doesn't have a broad range of preferences because media and geolocation feel bad for being racist or something.

 

[Newt]

Yeah, I think OP is right and a contradiction definitely does exist. Like for people who are ragging on the dude who said that a man will always be a man and a woman always a woman (not that I necessarily agree with him), I wonder how they would feel if they started dating someone and midway through the relationship they found that the person was transgender. According to their logic it shouldn't be too much of a big deal, but I'm sure their reactions would be much different.

 

[FLAguy954]

Well preferences. Just because you prefer not to date someone does not mean you don't respect them and support their right not to be treated like shit.

Pretty much how I feel as well.

 

[esms]

If somebody won't fully accept you the way you are, they aren't worth your time.

Sexuality isn't only penis and vagina btw.
Here's one of the many brain scans that reveal the differences between men and (trans-) women, it's very easy to understand.
BSTc is the Stria Terminalis wich is a part of the brain for anxiety and stress.

This is fascinating. Thank you.

 

[Kinsei]

Yeah, I think OP is right and a contradiction definitely does exist. Like for people who are ragging on the dude who said that a man will always be a man and a woman always a woman (not that I necessarily agree with him), I wonder how they would feel if they started dating someone and midway through the relationship they found that the person was transgender. According to their logic it shouldn't be too much of a big deal, but I'm sure their reactions would be much different.

I can honestly say it would make no difference at all to me. Though I would feel hurt if they didn;t trust me enough to reveal it before sex.

 

[khamsinvera]

You can at least pretend to be a decent person asshole.

Why? There are enough fake people in the world. He's being honest about how he feels - the world would be a better place with people speaking their minds.

 

[Griss]

If somebody won't fully accept you the way you are, they aren't worth your time.

Sexuality isn't only penis and vagina btw.
Here's one of the many brain scans that reveal the differences between men and (trans-) women, it's very easy to understand.
BSTc is the Stria Terminalis wich is a part of the brain for anxiety and stress.

This is interesting. I'm going to go read this study, I just pulled it up.

However, I will say that you can't define what sexuality is for other people. For me and many others penis in vagina sex is 95% of it. I mean, shit, the thought of anal sex even with a woman is gross to me. No interest in it at all. P in V all the way, that's what it's about to me personally. And I have every right to define my own sexuality just as gay people and transgender people and any group of human beings do. I have every right to be completely sexually boring if that's what I want and what turns me on.

 

[Nesotenso]

I can separate out being in favor of someone's basic rights and my attraction to someone.

 

[lifa-cobex]

It's not his opinion. To call a trans woman a man is factually wrong.

Religion, Science.
Good, Bad
Belief, Disbelief
Spaghetti monsters.

If he believes trans women are men, Then that's what he believes.
I'm Agnostic but if Jesus comes knocking on my door, Who the hell am I to argue

 

[M0nochromatic]

I'm either the 1% or you have grossly underestimated the amount of people who prioritize the pleasure of their girlfriend over their own. I intentionally drag out sex until she's about to pass out and then I finish. I'm sure I'm not alone.

I'm in the same camp. It's better to give then to receive, they say.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Neither of them are solely based on physical preference.

Right, but no one has a problem with gay men saying that they're not attracted to an entire gender. No one is saying that gay men are sexist for not dating women because enough of what attracts us to other people is based on how they look physically. It's a driving factor in what makes someone attracted to another person. I don't see why it's alright for a gay man to say he's not attracted to a whole gender based on their physical make up, but someone saying they aren't attracted to Asian people based on their physical make up is suddenly a racist.

People keep saying because of how varied people of that race look that you should be able to find someone of that race that you're attracted to. But by that logic shouldn't gay men be able to find a woman to be attracted to? They're eliminating a whole gender from their dating pool based on the fact that they aren't attracted to them. Why should they be allowed to do that and not be called sexist, but someone not being attracted to one race makes them a racist? Surely the pool of every woman on Earth is more varied then the pool of Asian women, so if someone who isn't attracted to Asian woman should be able to find an Asian woman to be attracted to, shouldn't the gay man be able to find a woman to be attracted to? If sexual preferences are so easy for the straight man to just change what he's attracted to on a whim, shouldn't gay men be able to do the same?

 

[Izuna]

Do you like your girlfriend because she's asian, or do you like her because she has traits you find attractive, and these traits just tend to be more common in asian women?

Please for the love of god, people are not talking about whether or not a white man is really black by blood or something. He is clearly, when he says he finds asian women cute, talking about how they look.

Unless you really think people actually seriously belong to separate breeds of human. All of what we indentify when we talk about ethnic groups is looks.

It becomes more fascinating when you talk about it from a medical perspective. That certain races tend to smell differently or have different levels of chemicals in their blood or whatever. But we are all here talking about races in terms of how they look when they say they have a preference.

 

[Currygan]

yeah, preferences is the right answer. Respect has nothing to do with it

 

[studyguy]

I'd like to have my own biological children so it's a nonstarter to begin with for me. As far as where I stand on transgendered. Whatever they're just people that deserve the same respect anyone else does.

 

[jasonng]

OK, seriously, can people not see the issue with saying "I won't date X" as a definitive and absolute statement? It is making huge assumptions and paints the entire group X with a broad brush and are totally ignoring individuals. This is the difference between an employer saying "I won't hire women" and "I'd hire any woman that could meet the requirements, but I haven't seen any". If you want to say "I'm generally not attracted to X and find it highly unlikely I'd ever date X" or "I don't think I could date X" then it's a different story because you're leaving yourself open to exceptions.

It definitely is a hard mental block to overcome it seems. Unfortunately that is my issue as well. However comparing to dating preferences to fundamental rights such as equal opportunity work is unfair. I fully support the rights of transgender, such as the right to use the desired bathroom.

Your point is to not fully dismiss an individual with broad assumptions to which that I can agree with. I want to say that I don't want to date a transgender woman but if I ever made a strong connection with one I would probably reconsider my stance. It truly is a hard mental block to overcome. But again, that's my issue.

Edit: Blah, I misread your post.

 

[WaffleTaco]

This is interesting. I'm going to go read this study, I just pulled it up.

However, I will say that you can't define what sexuality is for other people. For me and many others penis in vagina sex is 95% of it. I mean, shit, the thought of anal sex even with a woman is gross to me. No interest in it at all. P in V all the way, that's what it's about to me personally. And I have every right to define my own sexuality just as gay people and transgender people and any group of human beings do. I have every right to be completely sexually boring if that's what I want and what turns me on.

So would you date a post-op trans woman? One that has a vagina?

 

[dokish]

Religion, Science.
Good, Bad
Belief, Disbelief
Spaghetti monsters.

If he believes trans women are men, Then that's what he believes.
I'm Agnostic but if Jesus comes knocking on my door, Who the hell am I to argue

If I believe that unicorns exist, yes it is a belief but not a fact.

 

[Izuna]

So would you date a post-op trans woman? One that has a vagina?

Do these post-op pussys work exactly the same?

 

[Petrie]

Do these post-op pussys work exactly the same?

No.

And as someone who loves to eat pussy, no fucking thank you.

 

[cryptic]

I'm a man but feel more sensitive and weak then most men.
Due to societal pressures I don't feel like a typical man, and transitioning seems more common/accepted.
Should I transition as men like me aren't accepted, even though I like myself as I am?

This isn't bait, just a question.
I just want to be accepted and loved by someone.

 

[PhoenixDark]

It's not his opinion. To call a trans woman a man is factually wrong.

They're genetically male. I agree it would be ignorant to call a trans woman a man though.

I think it's disingenuous to act like there's no difference between a trans woman and a genetic/biological woman. The same applies to this idea that a straight man who doesn't want to date someone who has or had a penis=discrimination. Frankly I'm tired of it. The vast majority of straight men wouldn't date a trans woman. I see no discrimination in that, or a comparison to not dating a woman due to race.

 

[genjiZERO]

I wouldn't date a transgender. I only want to date XX females. So both sex and gender are important in who I decide to date. But I wouldn't treat that person differently in society. That's fucked up.

 

[collige]

Do these post-op pussys work exactly the same?

What do you mean by "exactly the same"? I mean, you won't be seeing any babies coming out of them, but they can generally look and feel the part.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

That's a perfectly fair point and I agree with you, but ultimately it's not for you or me to decide what limitations people put on their dating pool.

I know a guy who only dates blondes. That, to me, is dumb as fuck, since who cares about hair colour

Spoiler

and brunettes are hot as fuck anyway. (That pale skin contrasted with black hair... hnnnggg)

But this means that there aren't gonna be any black or Asian women on his list, you know? It's dumb to me, but I'm not going to cast aspersions on his character because of this arbitrary preference he has - when it comes to dating, you can be as dumb as you want to be because only you know what gets you hard. And if that's blonde hair, so be it.

Well the only problem there is, technically there can be blond black and Asian women. Naturally? Yeah, that may be a bit of stretch (happens, but very very rare). But dying their hair blond is completely possible. So then if it's blondes they prefer, it's going to have to be either that or natural-blondes. If it's natural blondes then yes it's reasonable to not expect many (or any) black or Asian women on that list.

Ultimately I agree with you on that we can't judge people too harshly for their choices. They have the right to those choices. But as a fellow person I also won't shy in trying to educate and maybe correct on what I feel are shallow or bigoted notions. And who's to say my own assumptions are fail-proof?

Having said that, all I can hope is it gets other people to reconsider a few things; ultimately their preferences aren't a problem. It's the "how" and "why" leading to them that can be problematic.

Me too.

It's a small club :/

 

[kmax]

You should read some of my other posts on why it's absolutely not okay.

Equating physical features to entire ethnicities, and then ignoring people of an ethnicity who may individually have those physical traits anyway? Yeah, that's a big problem.

People are free to be attracted to whoever they like. If that happens to be certain races, genders or what have you, then so be it. I'm not going to judge people on that fact alone since being attracted to someone is something out of your control. So why judge anyone on it? Seems stupid to me. I might not agree with some (like those who prefer dating within their own race), or have the same sexual preference as others, but I sure as heck won't judge them for it.

Like I said, we need to separate who we are attracted to, to how we perceive others. Those are vastly different.

 

[bms2993]

Honestly GAF, I used to be a HUGE bigot towards anyone who was not straight. (Grew up in a southern Baptist church and family) But then I went to a convention with a friend and another who was... I can't remember blast it. : Anyways just asking questions about his views on the way to the convention was all I needed to start treating everyone regardless of gender, sex, identity the very same. Equality for all! Also, yeah I'm still not sure about dating transgender. Personal preference is a thing.

 

[Anastasia]

Why? There are enough fake people in the world. He's being honest about how he feels - the world would be a better place with people speaking their minds.

I think the world would be a better place if there wasn't as much transphobia, homophobia, and racism, just to list a few.

It's one thing to state your mind, but another to be hateful. If he had just said, "This is how I feel but I admit I don't really know about the topic and would like to learn more," that's very different from asserting being trans is not a real thing, and disrespecting the identity of those who are. If I made a post on this forum saying there's no such thing as being gay and those who are gay are wrong, I would get torn to shreds, and rightfully so. If someone wants to think hateful things then of course that person has every right to, but it's probably better to leave those things unsaid.

 

[WaffleTaco]

Do these post-op pussys work exactly the same?

Define, what you mean by the same?

 

[Izuna]

No.

And as someone who loves to eat pussy, no fucking thank you.

Man, eating pussy is like the best thing ever.

Define, what you mean by the same?

Might be the most graphic post ever so I hid in a NSFW spoiler.

Spoiler

That they are so magnificently beautiful by design. Get it wet here, pee hole is there, the clit erecting a little... The taste (generally) and the way they just hug the fuck out of a dick after an orgasm.

--

 

[Newt]

I feel like this personal preference augment is like an attempt to avoid cognitive dissonance. Like lets come up with a theoretical situation. You go to a bar, meet a nice and girl and hit it off. A few hours down the road, the girl tells you that she was a born a man. You tell her that, "oh sorry I can't have a relationship with you, I prefer cisgendered woman". Does this really sound correct here?

 

[Unbounded]

I mean... what's the difference? One sounds more sensitive than the other, but i'm not really going to find Asian traits and features in say a black or white woman.

The difference is that you're attracted to the characteristics, not the race itself, and it's an important distinction.

To be attracted to a race is messed up. To be attracted to features ,( even those that tend to show up on one race rather than another), is not.

The reason it matters is because as stated multiple times, there isn't really anything you can pin down on a race. Not all black people, Asian people, White people, etc etc have the same traits even within their own race.

 

[esms]

Define, what you mean by the same?

I'm actually curious about this as well. Can they orgasm?

 

[crimzonflame]

Because they're both based on physical preferences.

So what about blind people?

 

[Simply Sarah]

It definitely is a hard mental block to overcome it seems. Unfortunately that is my issue as well. However comparing to dating preferences to fundamental rights such as equal opportunity work is unfair. I fully support the rights of transgender, such as the right to use the desired bathroom.

Your point is to not fully dismiss an individual with broad assumptions to which that I can agree with. I want to say that I don't want to date a transgender woman but if I ever made a strong connection with one I would probably reconsider my stance. It truly is a hard mental block to overcome. But again, that's my issue.

First off, I perhaps should have been more careful with my analogy. I had wished to make clear what I saw as the distinction and I probably could have found something less charged.

In any case, I'm quite aware it's a huge thing for many people. I can't deny that and I can't force anyone to change. I mostly just wish for people to be open to the idea of change. Which brings me, in reverse, to:

I think that's a bit silly. Aren't we all taking it for a given that no one is speaking in absolute terms making statements that they could never ever betray? I mean, if I say, "I won't date a smoker", I mean it to the extent that I can control. If I meet some wonderful person who I fall head over heels for and fall in love with and she happens to smoke, I'm not going to throw it away because, "honey, I love you but I swore I'd never date smokers so goodbye forever!"

Everything is subject to the exceptions that life throws at us. I don't think we have to qualify everything we say to understand that.

Yes, it's true that preferences are often phrased in English as absolutes when not intended to actually mean as such, but around this type of issue especially I tend to see stuff that is entirely dismissive to outright scary that seems to indicate no desire to even consider an exception. I admit I'm coming, in part, from a place of fear due to anti-trans violence being relatively common (when looked at relative to the number of trans people and similar violence), including "trans panic" type situations where the attacker basically tries to justify their actions as coming from a negative reaction to discovering someone was trans. I admit this is conflating things a bit.

 

[Griss]

So would you date a post-op trans woman? One that has a vagina?

No, because he thought that the vagina is artificial and made from a penis would be too much of a mental hurdle for me to clear when there's any one 99% of women with natural vaginas I could date instead. And that's just assuming that the vulva is perfectly indistinguishable from a natural, non-constructed one. If that's not the case (and I've never seen a MtF vulva) then that would be a 100% deal-breaker immediately anyway. Even just the idea that there's no uterus or the rest of the female sexual reproductive organs there would put me off hugely, to be honest. I wouldn't feel like I was putting my dick into a woman with that knowledge in my head, no matter what she looked like. That would be a 'male abdomen', even if on a person I had been dating as a woman and considered a woman.

This biological stuff matters to me sexually and I certainly feel no shame about saying it. I think by saying it, in fact, it might help some people who aren't so biologically-minded understand the reluctance of some of us to date trans people.

 

[Union Carbine]

Ultimately, attraction isn't logical.

 

[Lost Fragment]

The idea that I'm obligated to find every type of person on this earth a worthy romantic partner or else I'm a redneck bigot yokel is ridiculous. Everyone in the world who isn't an asshole is obligated to respect and basic human decency, but they are not obligated to my romantic interest.

I'm happy that there are non-trans people who would date trans people because being trans is a pretty rough road, but that's not me, so don't judge me because my sexuality doesn't line up with what you think it should be. You are not better than me.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

So what about blind people?

Blind people can still feel peoples physical features and get a sense of what they look like. It's not like a gay blind man is going to accidentally have sex with a bunch of women because he didn't know any better. They're blind, not oblivious.

 

[Izuna]

I feel like this personal preference augment is like an attempt to avoid cognitive dissonance. Like lets come up with a theoretical situation. You go to a bar, meet a nice and girl and hit it off. A few hours down the road, the girl tells you that she was a born a man. You tell her that, "oh sorry I can't have a relationship with you, I prefer cisgendered woman". Does this really sound correct here?

I wouldn't ask but I would check google if they can have babies yet.

I would also wonder if she looked as good as she did without makeup and if her boobs were real. Which would be awful to ask and simulatenously kill any mood there is for something casual.

So I'd say, "I'm not sure if I am comfortable". Because I'm not.

 

[WaffleTaco]

I'm actually curious about this as well. Can they orgasm?

Well, it's like this. They feel just like a regular vagaina, some even say they are tighter. I belive they have a g-spot. They have a clitoris and lips I think, though there may another surgery for that. Some trans women can get wet naturally, depending on the surgeon, though I belive most you have to use lube. Yes they can orgasm.

 

[TimorousPanda]

I wouldn't date a transgender. I only want to date XX females. So both sex and gender are important in who I decide to date. But I wouldn't treat that person differently in society. That's fucked up.

Yeah, this is where I fall.

 

[Izuna]

The difference is that you're attracted to the characteristics, not the race itself, and it's an important distinction.

To be attracted to a race is messed up. To be attracted to features ,( even those that tend to show up on one race rather than another), is not.

The reason it matters is because as stated multiple times, there isn't really anything you can pin down on a race. Not all black people, Asian people, White people, etc etc have the same traits even within their own race.

So you wanted to teach him semantics from the beginning but refused to do so.

So why are you being so general by saying black, white, and asian and not the actual enthic descriptions?

 

[lifa-cobex]

If I believe that unicorns exist, yes it is a belief but not a fact.

But your open minded to the premise that they might exist?
Basically by denouncing the facts. So that would mean you don't believe in the hard evidence provided.
If that be your uneducated, more educated or could provide another possibility that argues both statements.

If you follow that evidence says they don't exist, then you don't believe unicorns exist

lol unicorns

It just comes down to who this person is. He has a right to argue something by his own belief.
Even if hard evidence disagrees.

At one point in time, People thought the world was flat.

 

[ampere]

Transgender people definitely deserve rights and respect and to be addressed as their identifying gender, but I'm not sure I would be comfortable dating a trans woman. There is definitely a mental roadblock for me, even if the operation were a 100% conversion to the other biological sex.

 

[scotcheggz]

I'm a man but feel more sensitive and weak then most men.
Due to societal pressures I don't feel like a typical man, and transitioning seems more common/accepted.
Should I transition as men like me aren't accepted, even though I like myself as I am?

This isn't bait, just a question.
I just want to be accepted and loved by someone.

You should probably do some deep soul searching and figure that one out I'd guess. Everyone is different, I'm not a typical manly man imo, I'm a hairstylist and ponce about with hair all day long, I have a small build, I do skincare, I'm sensitive etc etc. but you might be suprised. It's often just the way we percieve ourselves. My ex actually told me once or twice that I was very masculine and it was for some of the reasons which I felt were not 'masculine' traits at all.

Having said that, take with a pinch of salt since I've not gone through any of the trials I can imagine entail a transition, but you should probably come to the conclusion based on what you want for yourself, not for anyone else. Love yourself and treat yourself as such first and foremost dude. Sorry if any of that sounded patronising.

 

[wildfire]

If we want to define humans by biology, you would have a huge crash with culture. By biological ways, a woman is ready to conceive when she get her first period. Varies by individual, but usually around 11 or 12 years old. Following biology, a 11 year old could have sex with whoever the fucks she want. But culture interventions say NO and the cultural layer is put on top of the biological one, where culture dictates when and how a woman should engage in intercourse. We create excuses like "She's not mentality ready" and shit like this.

Studies have increasingly proven that mental maturity takes a lot longer than puberty.

 

[esms]

Well, it's like this. They feel just like a regular vagaina, some even say they are tighter. I belive they have a g-spot. They have a clitoris and lips I think, though there may another surgery for that. Some trans women can get wet naturally, depending on the surgeon, though I belive most you have to use lube. Yes they can orgasm.

I'm learning so much today, I love it. Appreciate the info, brotha.

 

[Takuan]

If somebody won't fully accept you the way you are, they aren't worth your time.

Sexuality isn't only penis and vagina btw.
Here's one of the many brain scans that reveal the differences between men and (trans-) women, it's very easy to understand.
BSTc is the Stria Terminalis wich is a part of the brain for anxiety and stress.

Is there a scan that shows the MtF individual prior to transition? Presumably, hormone therapy might affect the distribution.

 

[Platy]

I don't understand "i would not date a black girl" or "I would not date a trans girl".

I can undertand "I find large noses unatractive" or "I find broad shoulders unatractive", but there are lots of both trans and black women of all shapes and sizes and skin colors.

Seeing "I would not date a black girl" as "I would not date someone that has black cromossomes" kinda makes it hard to avoid seeing the person as racist in the same way that saing "I would not date someone that has male chromossomes" would make the person transphobic....unless you ask for background checks that includes karyotype tests and family trees for every person you date =P

For the "would not date a gay would make me homophobic" ... you WOULD date a lesbian if she discovered herself bisexual =P

Is there a scan that shows the MtF individual prior to transition? Presumably, hormone therapy might affect the distribution.

Studies made on people that commited suicide because they could not transiition show the same brain stuff shown in transitioned people

 

[WaffleTaco]

I wouldn't ask but I would check google if they can have babies yet.

I would also wonder if she looked as good as she did without makeup and if her boobs were real. Which would be awful to ask and simulatenously kill any mood there is for something casual.

So I'd say, "I'm not sure if I am comfortable". Because I'm not.

Trans Women cannot have babies yet. And hormones can make a trans woman, look like a cis woman. Would you date a cis woman if they didn't look good with makeup? Boobs are a tricky subject, and I would say most are real, but they are some who fill the desire to want bigger boobs if they only ended with up an A cup, the same with cis women.