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[DevilFox]

Might be spoiler for some people

Spoiler

The Order 1886 reuses the same QTE boss battle for both Chapter 4 and Chapter 16 (Final Boss).

https://twitter.com/TheRazorRex/status/567520353552187392

Omg please stop.

Spoiler

It's a QTE fight and some attacks (animations) will be repeated, it depends on your timing and the context, like in every game on this earth that uses QTE or contextual animations,

like GoW or RE4 or Yakuza and its heat actions, like 47 vs Sanchez in Absolution etc.

 

[Chû Totoro]

This game typifies the current AAA landscape to me. That doesn't mean it's bad -- that's a different topic -- but rather that this is the natural end point of this sort of game development.

If you want more story, you'll need less gameplay and less choice; if you want more special effects, you'll need a more contained, corridor-ish experience, as well as a shorter game, unless you're one of the few well established studios (e.g. Rockstar) for whom the budget is essentially unlimited.

Again, to emphasize: this doesn't mean the game is bad. I'm just saying this game shows what sacrifices need to be made to achieve this particular style of game design.

God your tag is well deserved I hate it...

But yeah it's something we have to accept I guess. Compromises have to be made so if unluckily it doesn't match our standards it's just that they've been made for another part of the gaming community.

You're saying discussing about it being bad or not is another topic but I'm not sure because a lot of time we see the same keywords coming from threads about exclusives. Exclusives only make things more obvious because it's material for trolls and console "wars" (I hate it but no other word available...) but at the end it may be another way to make a market segmentation. Maybe discussing this would help people defining categories they're feeling close to and then less people would try to convince others that their way to define good games is better.

I personally hate a lot of casual games (not accessible, casual like I play this game but I have no attachment to the brand and video games won't probably be a thing I'll still play in a few months) but I'm now ok with it being a part of gaming even if it's not what I enjoy. I just want the industry not to forget people with my tastes... if one day it ends it'll simply be because there is no market there : only me lol

 

[Shadow_FFVI]

Tlou had a good mix of gameplay and storytelling. The actual mechanics and scenarios were top notch. It was also a really long campaign. The gameplay to cutscene mix is not good in the order, the mechanics are good but the gameplay scenarios are boring. Also there is too much reliance on qte for the "epic" parts of the gameplay. Tlou is far more enjoyable in just about every way.

I know, It's just that in the context of what Opiate posted it really brings to light just exactly what Naughty Dog managed to deliver with The Last of Us. Extremely impressive in hindsight.

 

[Dragonborn]

I wonder what time it unlocks. I kinda feel like switching my preorder from best buy to PSN, but at the same time, I would love to have it physically

 

[Maxim726X]

This game typifies the current AAA landscape to me. That doesn't mean it's bad -- that's a different topic -- but rather that this is the natural end point of this sort of game development.

If you want more story, you'll need less gameplay and less choice; if you want more special effects, you'll need a more contained, corridor-ish experience, as well as a shorter game, unless you're one of the few well established studios (e.g. Rockstar) for whom the budget is essentially unlimited.

Again, to emphasize: this doesn't mean the game is bad. I'm just saying this game shows what sacrifices need to be made to achieve this particular style of game design.

AAA games largely mirror big budget summer action movies at this point, and I think devs will have to re-imagine the way they make these games because honestly a savvy consumer (like myself and many others here) will just wait a few months and pick up the title used for ~20 dollars. With all of the competition today in the gaming market, it's tough to justify spending 60 dollars on a very limited experience.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Was this discussed somewhere?

http://www.develop-online.net/inter...y-at-dawn-talks-quality-over-quantity/0203245

"We have this uncanny 'haterade' for our game no matter what. People are looking for something to throw at our game, some reason to hate it. I'm excited to hear what people who have actually played the game think about it, how do they feel about the quality and the quantity? I think by and large that most people are going to be satisfied."

That's a decent interview and probably deserves its own thread. I don't know if the forum can handle another Order thread tho, lol.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

.

 

[TheCanisDirus]

AAA games largely mirror big budget summer action movies at this point, and I think devs will have to re-imagine the way they make these games because honestly a savvy consumer (like myself and many others here) will just wait a few months and pick up the title used for ~20 dollars. With all of the competition today in the gaming market, it's tough to justify spending 60 dollars on a very limited experience.

My sentiments exactly. I went from being extremely excited for The Order during/around its reveal to completely... "Meh, it's a movie I'll wait for when it hits On Demand".

 

[Chû Totoro]

That's a decent interview and probably deserves its own thread. I don't know if the forum can handle another Order thread tho, lol.

Interview is from yeterday. People are going to say that the "hate no matter what" is not true. Hate almost always has been focus on the "cinematic" approach (black bars, QTE, length...).

I think a new thread would make a lot of new bans :/

Edit :

AAA has to die, then. Let it be reborn as something better.

It doesn't have to die. Now like I said in my other post it's just important that other ways of making games still be here. And even if AAA get all the media attention, a lot of other games get attention too. Especially here in NeoGAF.

But clearly AAA games shouldn't get all the attention they get here... it's just hate and controversy. Also except for quick news I'm almost certain most of people are not coming here for AAA discussion. Maybe it's what made GAF less pleasant, AAA saturation.

 

[OccamsLightsaber]

the youtube account that originally posted the 5h30min playthrough said it wasn't a speed run:

"I didn't know fanboys would get so worked up"

Says the guy who broke street date by more than a week on a controversial title.

 

[semiconscious]

hopefully some of you will get a laugh out of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-u5tvQC34

amazing! made checking this thread worth it (& i'm someone actually looking forward to the game )...

 

[Primethius]

Ugh... I don't know why I hovered over the spoiler bar thinking it was a minor spoiler.

 

[Dali]

GAF shoutout LOL
"we have a joke where someone will post on the website NeoGAF something like "Sony released new screenshots of The Order" and we place bets on what post number we think is going to be the first one where someone says something unfoundedly negative. Like 'oh looks like it's going to be failboat' or something like that, and we'll guess 'maybe it's going to be post 20' and we'll see how close we are."

When will developers learn to just stfu? They just sound like butt hurt losers when they lash out like that. The people that like the game will sing its praises from on high and the people that don't will also speak their mind. If the likes outnumber the dislikes then the game will go down in history as being good. No amount of shilling or pleads or denigrating will change this.

 

[thebloo]

Ugh... I don't know why I hovered over the spoiler bar thinking it was a minor spoiler.

Apparently it's not such a big spoiler, or even a spoiler.

Omg please stop.

Spoiler

It's a QTE fight and some attacks (animations) will be repeated, it depends on your timing and the context, like in every game on this earth that uses QTE or contextual animations,

like GoW or RE4 or Yakuza and its heat actions, like 47 vs Sanchez in Absolution etc.

 

[shandy706]

Might be spoiler for some people

Spoiler

The Order 1886 reuses the same QTE boss battle for both Chapter 4 and Chapter 16 (Final Boss).

https://twitter.com/TheRazorRex/status/567520353552187392

Omg please stop.

Spoiler

It's a QTE fight and some attacks (animations) will be repeated, it depends on your timing and the context, like in every game on this earth that uses QTE or contextual animations,

like GoW or RE4 or Yakuza and its heat actions, like 47 vs Sanchez in Absolution etc.

Sorry DevilFox, but that does seem a bit silly to use the EXACT same animations in a QTE in 2 "boss" fights.

I can see it in repetitive "minion/base enemy" fights...I mean you can't have infinite animations, but the exact same QTE attacks/reactions with 2 major encounters...that's kind of silly.

I'm surprised no-one else has said anything. (It's possible I missed it if they did) Also, that's not really a spoiler I wouldn't think. It doesn't give way any details to the story/characters/encounters.

 

[Dragonborn]

AAA has to die, then. Let it be reborn as something better.

I find this better so let's go ahead and keep it "dead"....opinions, right?

 

[Interfectum]

When will developers learn to just stfu? They just sound like butt hurt losers when they lash out like that. The people that like the game will sing its praises from on high and the people that don't will also speak their mind. If the likes outnumber the dislikes then the game will go down in history as being good. No amount of shilling or pleads or denigrating will change this.

This is the kind of gross negativity they are talking about. Is telling the the devs to "shut the fuck up" and calling them "butt hurt losers" really necessary?

 

[Opiate]

AAA has to die, then. Let it be reborn as something better.

I don't think that's necessary; a utopian world would allow for all types of games.

I think the only issue right now is that AAA is so dominant on consoles in particular. Contrary to popular opinion, the consoles are now pretty narrow in the offerings they provide, and they subsequently appeal to a pretty limited demographic within the now much larger gaming landscape. Consoles were once the place where all gamers came (EA estimated that consoles were ~80% of all gaming revenue in the early 2000s), but that is no longer the case.

I think it's fine for AAA to exist as long as there is room for other types of games to breathe. Right now, that's not meaningfully the case on consoles.

 

[Freeman]

That's a decent interview and probably deserves its own thread. I don't know if the forum can handle another Order thread tho, lol.

Mod probably can't handle another thread for this game, my bet is that it would get locked.

When will developers learn to just stfu? They just sound like butt hurt losers when they lash out like that. The people that like the game will sing its praises from on high and the people that don't will also speak their mind. If the likes outnumber the dislikes then the game will go down in history as being good. No amount of shilling or pleads or denigrating will change this.

Lets all pretend this game is not enticing a impressive amount of hatred by people who never played it.

AAA games largely mirror big budget summer action movies at this point, and I think devs will have to re-imagine the way they make these games because honestly a savvy consumer (like myself and many others here) will just wait a few months and pick up the title used for ~20 dollars. With all of the competition today in the gaming market, it's tough to justify spending 60 dollars on a very limited experience.

They probably take that into account, they are aware that many people will have reservations about spending 60$ on this game. The the thing is lowering the price of your game has other implications, if it was 40$ is would probably affect the perception on how valuable the game is negatively, it's a weird characteristic of this industry.

I wish that they would come up with a more bold business plan like all retail version being limited editions and digital copies being 20$ cheaper.

 

[RoboPlato]

I don't think that's necessary. I think it suggests there is room for all types of games.

I think the only issue right now is that AAA is so dominant on consoles in particular. Contrary to popular opinion, the consoles are now pretty narrow in the offerings they provide. They were once the place where all gamers came (EA estimated that consoles were ~80% of all gaming revenue in the early 2000s), but that is no longer the case.

I think it's fine for AAA to exist as long as there is room for other types of games to breathe. Right now, that's not meaningfully the case on consoles.

Indie presence and variety has picked up on consoles by a dramatic amount in the past few years.

 

[Roddslayer]

Sounds like a great game to rent over a weekend, I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Maxim726X]

My sentiments exactly. I went from being extremely excited for The Order during/around its reveal to completely... "Meh, it's a movie I'll wait for when it hits On Demand".

There's just too much exposure to huge releases at this point, anyone who was interested in the game knows about it's length now. I'm not saying that it's going to destroy potential sales, but there are absolutely some people who are going to look at the value proposition that this game offers and just decide to wait.

 

[DevilFox]

This game typifies the current AAA landscape to me. That doesn't mean it's bad -- that's a different topic -- but rather that this is the natural end point of this sort of game development.

If you want more story, you'll need less gameplay and less choice; if you want more special effects, you'll need a more contained, corridor-ish experience, as well as a shorter game, unless you're one of the few well established studios (e.g. Rockstar) for whom the budget is essentially unlimited.

Again, to emphasize: this doesn't mean the game is bad. I'm just saying this game shows what sacrifices need to be made to achieve this particular style of game design.

I disagree. The Order isn't the results of cuts and sacrifices, I would easily notice that. It's a perfectly consistent product made this way for a very precise goal. This is what they wanted to do from the beginning, it's not the end point of anything, it's a possible road to take with this medium like there are many others.

 

[MercuryLS]

I know, It's just that in the context of what Opiate posted it really brings to light just exactly what Naughty Dog managed to deliver with The Last of Us. Extremely impressive in hindsight.

Yeah, its difficult to make a cinematic game that still feels like a great game from a gameplay standpoint. Getting the balance between gameplay and story is really hard, it's also really hard to make the big epic setpieces feel meaningful and properly interactive (rather than qtes). The Order kinda reminds me of a Quantic Dream game with Gears of War-like action. It's a cool experience, but it ultimately feels a bit hollow.

 

[Servbot24]

GAF shoutout LOL
"we have a joke where someone will post on the website NeoGAF something like "Sony released new screenshots of The Order" and we place bets on what post number we think is going to be the first one where someone says something unfoundedly negative. Like 'oh looks like it's going to be failboat' or something like that, and we'll guess 'maybe it's going to be post 20' and we'll see how close we are."

"Failboat"? Is that a thing?

 

[Shengar]

I think the only issue right now is that AAA is so dominant on consoles in particular. Contrary to popular opinion, the consoles are now pretty narrow in the offerings they provide. They were once the place where all gamers came (EA estimated that consoles were ~80% of all gaming revenue in the early 2000s), but that is no longer the case.

I think it's fine for AAA to exist as long as there is room for other types of games to breathe. Right now, that's not meaningfully the case on consoles.

Yeah, I think the 5th and 6th generation consoles are amazing in that regard, offering the widest game library available. From cinematic game experience to wacky crazy puzzle, it's all there. I wonder what makes the console industry turned into AAA fest.

 

[Fisty]

Im at work, anybody know if preload is live in US yet?

 

[Ricky Ricardo]

GAF shoutout LOL
"we have a joke where someone will post on the website NeoGAF something like "Sony released new screenshots of The Order" and we place bets on what post number we think is going to be the first one where someone says something unfoundedly negative. Like 'oh looks like it's going to be failboat' or something like that, and we'll guess 'maybe it's going to be post 20' and we'll see how close we are."

This sounds like the dev has a weak chin

 

[Opiate]

Indie presence and variety has picked up on consoles by a dramatic amount in the past few years.

It's better than zero, but consoles are still enormously far behind virtually anything else; the indie presence on PC, on iOS, on Android, and on browsers dwarf the console presence. There are more indie games released on PC or iOS in a month than will be released on PS4 for a full year or more.

 

[TwoDurans]

"I didn't know fanboys would get so worked up"

Says the guy who broke street date by more than a week on a controversial title.

Prior to this, what was the controversy exactly?

This sounds like the dev has a weak chin

I'm not going to badmouth the dev, but this (and their previous title list) shows how immature a developer they really are. Most seasoned Devs know better than to take anything written on GAF personally. TLoU was arguably one of the best games of the previous generation and there were plenty of people that hated it. Opinions are welcome, being childish about them (dev or fan) isn't.

 

[Alienous]

Was this discussed somewhere?

http://www.develop-online.net/inter...y-at-dawn-talks-quality-over-quantity/0203245

"We have this uncanny 'haterade' for our game no matter what. People are looking for something to throw at our game, some reason to hate it. I'm excited to hear what people who have actually played the game think about it, how do they feel about the quality and the quantity? I think by and large that most people are going to be satisfied."

A youTuber has played through [The Order: 1886] and finished it in five-and-a-half hours.
Garret Foster: That's a quick time... he beat my best time. Obviously as a programmer you've got to get to areas quickly to diagnose the area. So the last build of the game I speed ran through and I wasn't even close to that time -- I needed to play through the game from beginning to end before we sent it to manufacturing, right!?

Really?

 

[thebloo]

I don't think that's necessary. I think it suggests there is room for all types of games.

I think the only issue right now is that AAA is so dominant on consoles in particular. Contrary to popular opinion, the consoles are now pretty narrow in the offerings they provide. They were once the place where all gamers came (EA estimated that consoles were ~80% of all gaming revenue in the early 2000s), but that is no longer the case.

I think it's fine for AAA to exist as long as there is room for other types of games to breathe. Right now, that's not meaningfully the case on consoles.

I disagree, I guess I'm the popular opinion. There's such a wide variety of games(and price points) available on the consoles right now that I would have not imagined a few years ago. I can go play Destiny, Assassins Creed, Driveclub, FIFA, Infamous (5 different AAA games) and then delve into Transistor, Apotheon, Rogue Legacy, Terraria and so on.

But I would think that this is for another thread, another time.

 

[suedester]

When will developers learn to just stfu? They just sound like butt hurt losers when they lash out like that. The people that like the game will sing its praises from on high and the people that don't will also speak their mind. If the likes outnumber the dislikes then the game will go down in history as being good. No amount of shilling or pleads or denigrating will change this.

The irony here is pretty impressive. Bravo, Sir.

 

[Dragonborn]

When will developers learn to just stfu? They just sound like butt hurt losers when they lash out like that. The people that like the game will sing its praises from on high and the people that don't will also speak their mind. If the likes outnumber the dislikes then the game will go down in history as being good. No amount of shilling or pleads or denigrating will change this.

Egh, they're not wrong. The whole lead up to release has been amazing. Never before have I seen a game get so much hate and such a dedicated minority of gamers getting together to make sure that every thread got derailed, that no time went by before they popped in to say how they didn't like it.

It's just that now, with this whole controversy over playtime, those same haters have some more tangible ammo to use and by God they are using it.

At this point, we know exactly what we're getting so why does this minority feel the need to still race to every order thread to try and harsh the mellow. It gets annoying. RAD had a very clear vision of what they wanted, and they were very open about it from day 1 yet people still complain that the game doesn't cater to their particular interest. Well, no duh, not every game is going to be tailor made for you.

If you don't like what it offers, how about not derailing threads? it's a cinematic, filmic title that perhaps doesn't have the longest length ever. We know this. I'm still buying it as are hundreds of thousands of people. If you don't like it, go talk about something else or wait till the game actually comes out and try it.

It'd be like me, someone who doesn't like Sports games, going into a FIFA thread and complaining that the game shouldn't exist or that it should be something else just because I personally don't like it.

 

[TheCanisDirus]

There's just too much exposure to huge releases at this point, anyone who was interested in the game knows about it's length now. I'm not saying that it's going to destroy potential sales, but there are absolutely some people who are going to look at the value proposition that this game offers and just decide to wait.

Exactly what I'll be doing. For me, and what I personally get out of video games... This isn't near worth $60.

Take the beautifully done graphics and intricate details and tone them down if that allows you to create a longer, more complex, rewarding and replayable game.

Too much focus/time/money is spent on visuals with most AAA franchises. The industry needs a refocus on core gameplay, story, game-world etc. (all just my worthless opinion though)

 

[Chû Totoro]

When will developers learn to just stfu? They just sound like butt hurt losers when they lash out like that. The people that like the game will sing its praises from on high and the people that don't will also speak their mind. If the likes outnumber the dislikes then the game will go down in history as being good. No amount of shilling or pleads or denigrating will change this.

God that sounds awful.. Really Ready at Dawn, when devs will learn?

 

[cripterion]

The people who watched his playthrough said he was breezing through the game ignoring side content

You say side content like it's side quests or something

 

[Crossing Eden]

Omg please stop.

Spoiler

It's a QTE fight and some attacks (animations) will be repeated, it depends on your timing and the context, like in every game on this earth that uses QTE or contextual animations,

like GoW or RE4 or Yakuza and its heat actions, like 47 vs Sanchez in Absolution etc.

Pretty sure that

Spoiler

every animation during the QTE for Boss fights in the GOW games are unique. And that every big boss has their own unique animations.

 

[Opiate]

I disagree. The Order isn't the results of cuts and sacrifices, I would easily notice that. It's a perfectly consistent product made this way for a very precise goal. This is what they wanted to do from the beginning, it's not the end point of anything, it's a possible road to take with this medium like there are many others.

Every game is the result of "cuts and sacrifices;" I'm not trying to pick on The Order in particular here.

My point, again, is that no game can do everything at once. Making a choice to do X means you can't do Y; choosing to make a competitive multiplayer game, for instance, may increase the skill cap of your game significantly but also limit the potential story telling options.

I want to make it clear that no game can do everything games are capable of all at once.

 

[Interfectum]

It's better than zero, but consoles are still enormously far behind virtually anything else; the indie presence on PC, on iOS, on Android, and on browsers dwarf the console presence. There are more indie games released on PC or iOS in a month than will be released on PS4 for a full year or more.

I dunno, PS4 seems to be picking up a lot of the good indie games on Steam that are controller friendly. And I don't think anyone wants to see an iOS floodgate situation on consoles... sometimes having a gate keeper or barrier to entry is a good thing.

 

[Abounder]

I'm an enthusiast and I do not lament it. In fact, I welcome these types of games with open arms and hope for more. You don't speak for everyone

I expect The Order to sell well but it's still the type of game that enthusiasts aren't fans of; much like how Ryse is bashed compared to Bayonetta. It's shaping up to be a classic case of focusing on style over substance; even though everyone's favorite PS4 launch title was arguably a modern version of an arcade classic in Resogun

this. it really does seem like the game took almost everything that felt like an anathema to gaming and rolled it into a single product: limited player agency, super linear, large amount of cutscenes (that can't be skipped), quick time events, is another shooter and not a lot of gameplay. i'm sure once the dust settles/there are other exclusives this will be forgotten by most

I agree and it will be interesting to see how the market responds

 

[JAYSIMPLE]

Omg please stop.

Spoiler

It's a QTE fight and some attacks (animations) will be repeated, it depends on your timing and the context, like in every game on this earth that uses QTE or contextual animations,

like GoW or RE4 or Yakuza and its heat actions, like 47 vs Sanchez in Absolution etc.

So your saying God of war uses the same animation and pretty much fight. Same models etc for its final boss as well as a mid way boss? I've watched both fights and I don't believe you. It is pretty much identical in the order. I don't know why you are defending it

 

[Maxim726X]

Exactly what I'll be doing. For me, and what I personally get out of video games... This isn't near worth $60.

Take the beautifully done graphics and intricate details and tone them down if that allows you to create a longer, more complex, rewarding and replayable game.

Too much focus/time/money is spent on visuals with most AAA franchises. The industry needs a refocus on core gameplay, story, game-world etc. (all just my worthless opinion though)

Well, this is an enthusiast forum... I, and I'm sure many other people, agree with you on that one.

But as it's been proven over and over again, marketing and pretty visuals can drive sales in the mass market. Pachter is apparently on the record saying that this game will sell 5 million units by the end of the year. Personally I think that's crazy talk, but maybe he's right. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Freeman]

It's better than zero, but consoles are still enormously far behind virtually anything else; the indie presence on PC, on iOS, on Android, and on browsers dwarf the console presence. There are more indie games released on PC or iOS in a month than will be released on PS4 for a full year or more.

Console are a more curated experience, I don't think it would be beneficial to have as many indies as PC, it becomes overwhelming at some point.

 

[Gestault]

"I didn't know fanboys would get so worked up"

Says the guy who broke street date by more than a week on a controversial title.

Street date is the obligation of retailers and press members who make agreements to get early access to a title. My understanding is that he's neither.

And yeah, people saying that a video showing the entire playthrough of a game isn't an accurate measure of its length are pretty off-base.

 

[mercenar1e]

for anyone not aware a $50 Sony PlayStation Network Card is selling for $40. today only.

http://deals.ebay.com/5001888848__50_Sony_Playstation_Gift_Card_for__40?customid=3b42f0e1e5304f28ae3bc3791e901a13&pub=5574652453&afepn=5335869999&campid=5335869999&icep_id=117&ipn=icep&afepn=5335869999&rmvSB=true

 

[Delt31]

wait.....I don't mind a 5 hour gameplay experience but is it true the game only has 1.5/2 hours of true real gameplay? GAF please tell me now b/c if so, I'm cancelling PO.

 

[Ralemont]

I think you might be surprised with The Witcher 3.

I very much doubt it. The Witcher 3 is, I think, going to be a very good to great game, but it's subject to the same design opportunity cost as anything else. Expect either lots of open space with no content or lots of fetch quests, a la Dragon Age Inquisition.

 

[despire]

wait.....I don't mind a 5 hour gameplay experience but is it true the game only has 1.5/2 hours of true real gameplay? GAF please tell me now b/c if so, I'm cancelling PO.

GAF average playthrough time is over 10hr.

 

[Opiate]

I dunno, PS4 seems to be picking up a lot of the good indie games on Steam that are controller friendly. And I don't think anyone wants to see an iOS floodgate situation on consoles... sometimes having a gate keeper or barrier to entry is a good thing.

This may be the reason that consoles have lost their dominant position.

The consoles were, at one point, the place where the "floodgates" were opened; while there were ~1000 PS3 games, there were ~2500 PS2 games, and the list of PS4 games looks like to shrink further from the PS3 era (it has so far, at least).

Console are a more curated experience, I don't think it would be beneficial to have as many indies as PC, it becomes overwhelming at some point.

Well, it's important to note that consoles seem to have become increasingly "curated" over time, as release lists relentlessly dwindle. During the same time that the release lists have been dwindling, the PC, iOS and browser spaces have exploded in popularity, with enormous support from a wide variety of grass roots developers.

I'm not saying you have to want or like this, but the correlation is pretty compelling.