Support NeoGAF

[Slayven]

Unless there is a refrigerator involve I see no problem.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Honestly, I'm surprised that Babs and Joker haven't really faced off against each other again. Has potential to be a powerful story.

Faced off in new 52 or before that? Cause they have faced off before that. She's beat him up before as Oracle.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Has Spider-Man ever been crying on a cover? It would surprise me if he hasn't in some form, Peter cries more than basically every other male superhero.

 

[Mesoian]

But in this story the characters don't react like the faux Batgirl is crazy and completely disgusting for dressing like Batgirl. I don't really think that was the sole point either.

Then when you consider that the book has a trans character who isn't a joke and isn't negative I think it's more likely it was innocent and not transphobic.

Sure. I'm not saying that this story is transphobic. I see 0 problems with that cover.

Has Spider-Man ever been crying on a cover? It would surprise me if he hasn't in some form, Peter cries more than basically every other male superhero.

It's implied that hes crying on that cover where mary jane is dead from years of radioactive semen.

Comics you guys.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

So, there's apparently a Change.org petition going around to have the cover pulled. Does anyone think we're we gonna have a Milo Manara situation happen?

It is a variant cover for a comic that likely won't reach a significant amount of people. The attention they're giving it will likely garner more than it would otherwise.

 

[Parallax]

Has Spider-Man ever been crying on a cover? It would surprise me if he hasn't in some form, Peter cries more than basically every other male superhero.

....yes

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Has Spider-Man ever been crying on a cover? It would surprise me if he hasn't in some form, Peter cries more than basically every other male superhero.

Well he wears a mask so it would be hard to tell

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

So, there's apparently a Change.org petition going around to have the cover pulled. Does anyone think we're we gonna have a Milo Manara situation happen?

UGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Faced off in new 52 or before that? Cause they have faced off before that. She's beat him up before as Oracle.

I was thinking New 52, but honestly I haven't read that story.

 

[GringoSuave89]

bruce has constantly faced the result of his rape in his son though. dick was distant from tarantula despite her thinking there was something there between them.

Again, not in a way that depowers/emasculates him, which is the difference. The Dick one is a great example though, especially in terms of male rape, which (aside from comedic/male-male situations) is seldom brought up

She was sexually assaulted by Joker?

Yup
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5253/5530939261_7f3487d460_z.jpg (second to last panel is the start)
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma7zhhTbsG1rryoefo1_500.jpg

The forced removal of clothing is sexual assault.

Yeah, I can see why people are unhappy

And for me, personally, that's all I want people to get. I'm not gonna have a petition to remove it or tweet DC how disgusted I am with them. I just want people to get it's kinda fucked, and is pretty evocative of a person facing a sexual attacker from a place of weakness.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Has Spider-Man ever been crying on a cover? It would surprise me if he hasn't in some form, Peter cries more than basically every other male superhero.

Literally the first Google Image result when you search "Spiderman covers"

 

[ginger ninja]

Its a call back to the fucked up shit that happened in The Killing Joke. It makes perfect sense for Batgirl to be scared when the Joker has a gun to her head.

Umm, bruce has had plenty of trauma too.

But Batman has never been in a similar situation to Barbara...his traumatic event was when he was a child, and his whole character is living through that. I can hardly think of any male heroes who have similar relationships with popular villains, mainly because they were already heroes before they met same villains.

Besides, not everyone has to be a emotionless baddy beating machine. Vulnerabilities and fears don't make someone weaker

They wouldn't because Batman isn't the same as Batgirl. Babs isn't like Bruce Wayne. She isn't a stone cold badass and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. She is still a hero.

If Wonder Woman was in this position then it'd be super weird.

Well doesn't that kinda goes with what I was saying, for me this doesn't have anything to do with barbara's history but the fact that they would be less likely to show a male hero in such a weak position(fear, tears) on the cover.

 

[not_so_special]

For example.

your post history on these type of threads is a good example too,i love the "Holier-than-thou" attitude some of you have on this forum

yeah..whe know..we are ignorant ,etc etc

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

Well doesn't that kinda goes with what I was saying, for me this doesn't have anything to do with barbara's history but the fact that they would be less likely to show a male hero in such a weak position(fear, tears) on the cover.

And your proof is?

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Well doesn't that kinda goes with what I was saying, for me this doesn't have anything to do with barbara's history but the fact that they would be less likely to show a male hero in such a weak position(fear, tears) on the cover.

Spiderman has covers where he's crying and afraid as have other male superheroes...

 

[Parallax]

Again, not in a way that depowers/emasculates him, which is the difference. The Dick one is a great example though, especially in terms of male rape, which (aside from comedic/male-male situations) is seldom brought up

how is raising the son that reminds you of your rape not emasculation?

 

[GringoSuave89]

Well doesn't that kinda goes with what I was saying, for me this doesn't have anything to do with barbara's history but the fact that they would be less likely to show a male hero in such a weak position(fear, tears) on the cover.

Why does she have to be in a weak position? Cause she's a girl? Because that's all I'm seeing from this argument. Why can't she just look pissed/agitated? Why does she have to be in tears? That's what equal representation in comics is. That's what "social crusaders" (people around here seem to love to hate) are asking for.

how is raising the son that reminds you of your rape not emasculation?

The fact that writers don't dedicate pages of content to that is the difference.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

your post history on these type of threads is a good example too,i love the "Holier-than-thou" attitude some of you have on this forum

yeah..whe know..we are ignorant ,etc etc

Instead of speaking for me and others, why not just be thoughtfully interested in perspectives different than your own?

I appreciate the posts in here pointing out Batgirl and Joker's history, which informs the cover's intent. I don't understand the people who are just like "lol sjws being offended at everything" when they could at least use the opportunity to learn more, even if they don't agree.

 

[The Adder]

You know what DOES really bother me about this cover, and a lot of the Killing Joke references?

Joker never shot Batgirl.

He shot a Barbara Gordon who had already retired from the superhero life some time ago.

I think it's a shitty thing to do to put her in the costume and reference TKJ. That's not the Babs he shot. That Babs wouldn't have let it happen. And even if she did the costume represents you as somethiing more than yourself. It is an aegis against your fears as a civilian. If they HAD to make her Batgirl again (they shouldn't have), I would have prefered they explore that idea than the "Oh I must get over this trauma!" bullshit.

 

[WrenchNinja]

UGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH



I was thinking New 52, but honestly I haven't read that story.

Beat him up is more of exaggeration, but she put up a decent fight despite being in a wheel chair.

Birds of Prey #124

 

[ginger ninja]

And your proof is?

I don't have any, that's just what i thought when i first looked at the cover.
I don't read enough comics to have seen it first hand. Perhaps someone here can post a bunch of covers with batman in a really compromising cover ?

 

[DoktorEvil]

I'm not understanding what's so controversial about that cover...

The Joker is a sociopath. Unbridled chaos in villain form. He's caught Batgirl in a compromising position and she's terrified.

Where is this implication that there is anything sexual about this? The gun laying against her chest pointed down? The finger gun in her cheek? His sadistic smile?

 

[GringoSuave89]

Instead of speaking for me and others, why not just be thoughtfully interested in perspectives different than your own?

I appreciate the posts in here pointing out Batgirl and Joker's history, which informs the cover's intent. I don't understand the people who are just like "lol sjws being offended at everything" when they could at least use the opportunity to learn more, even if they don't agree.

You know what DOES really bother me about this cover, and a lot of the Killing Joke references?

Joker never shot Batgirl.

He shot a Barbara Gordon who had already retired from the superhero life some time ago.

I think it's a shitty thing to do to put her in the costume and reference TKJ. That's not the Babs he shot. That Babs wouldn't have let it happen. And even if she did the costume represents you as somethiing more than yourself. It is an aegis against your fears as a civilian. If they HAD to make her Batgirl again (they shouldn't have), I would have prefered they explore that idea than the "Oh I must get over this trauma!" bullshit.

You two are cool. Keep being cool.

 

[bryanee]

Umm, bruce has had plenty of trauma too.

I don't recall saying he hadn't.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Instead of speaking for me and others, why not just be thoughtfully interested in perspectives different than your own?

People get too heated on both sides for a rational discussion to emerge.

 

[not_so_special]

Instead of speaking for me and others, why not just be thoughtfully interested in perspectives different than your own?

well,thats the problem..i love perspectives..but people like the ones offended with everything dont want perspectives..they only want to validate their point of view..no matter what

pls dont act like these kind of people want discussion.i have seen this kind of people many many times and years

You two are cool. Keep being cool.

yeah..they are cool because they shared your point of view..thats called echo chamber...

 

[captainpat]

But in this story the characters don't react like the faux Batgirl is crazy and completely disgusting for dressing like Batgirl. I don't really think that was the sole point either.

Then when you consider that the book has a trans character who isn't a joke and isn't negative I think it's more likely it was innocent and not transphobic.

Pretty sure it's a little that just coincidence that a lot of characters who crossdress also happen to be sociopaths even if it's unrelated to their crossdressing.

And just because there is a non-joke trans character doesn't mean they can't do stuff that isn't transphobic. They probably didn't intend to but that's still not an excuse.

 

[Ahasverus]

Just a Joker theme for the month. He's not in the actual storyline.

Varients are generally unrelated to content.

Dissapointing. I guess they're saving their confrontation for an special event, though it's very easy to guess how it will turn out.

 

[n00bsauce87]

I'm pretty sure these are the same people who said the spider woman variant cover was bad. So to avoid concern trolling, when should one be outraged?

 

[Kinyou]

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5253/5530939261_7f3487d460_z.jpg (second to last panel is the start)
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma7zhhTbsG1rryoefo1_500.jpg

The forced removal of clothing is sexual assault..

Okay, I actually didn't know about that scene. So now I understand what you mean. However, I wonder how many of those outraged are actually thinking of that scene. That Barbara was paralyzed is always one of the most prominent things about the killing joke. To me it seems like the intent was to reference that, not what happened afterwards.
I mean, the Joker is also carrying the gun he shot her with, not a camera.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Dissapointing. I guess they're saving their confrontation for an special event, though it's very easy to guess how it will turn out.

Did you read death of the family?

 

[Ganzlinger]

Yup
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5253/5530939261_7f3487d460_z.jpg (second to last panel is the start)
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma7zhhTbsG1rryoefo1_500.jpg

The forced removal of clothing is sexual assault.

I see. I don't read comics but I watched a lot of superheroes cartoons and movies throughout my life so I call myself a superhero enthusiast not an expert. But it seems the comics has a lot of sexual content (rape, radioactive semen). I wonder if they are rated for a specific audience? And sorry if this is a stupid question, but you know, there are a lot of kids worldwide playing with toys and stuff from these heroes (including myself while I was a kid).

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Why does she have to be in a weak position? Cause she's a girl? Because that's all I'm seeing from this argument. Why can't she just look pissed/agitated? Why does she have to be in tears? That's what equal representation in comics is. That's what "social crusaders" (people around here seem to love to hate) are asking for.

Because it happens to everyone regardless of gender? how is it equal representation if there are a whole bunch of subjects/topics/themes that you aren't allowed to have a women portray?

 

[WrenchNinja]

Dissapointing. I guess they're saving their confrontation for an special event, though it's very easy to guess how it will turn out.

They've already confronted each other during Death of the Family

 

[ginger ninja]

Why does she have to be in a weak position? Cause she's a girl? Because that's all I'm seeing from this argument. Why can't she just look pissed/agitated? Why does she have to be in tears? That's what equal representation in comics is. That's what "social crusaders" (people around here seem to love to hate) are asking for.

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. She looks to be in weak position because it seems like she being held against her will on gun point and certainly hurting. And i just feel i am less likely to see a male superhero in the same position.

 

[Jaeger]

This reminds me of the raging due to Chris Redfield killing African zombies in Africa.

 

[GringoSuave89]

Dissapointing. I guess they're saving their confrontation for an special event, though it's very easy to guess how it will turn out.

They've kinda faced off already in the New 52. I doubt we'll get an actual "face off" as it relates to TKJ, only because that would me the Joker knows Barbara Gordon is Batgirl.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I don't imagine we'd ever see Batman with a terrified look in his face and a tear coming out of his eye no matter what situation Joker managed to put him in.

 

[GringoSuave89]

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. She looks to be in weak position because it seems like she being held against her will on gun point and certainly hurting. And i just feel i am less likely to see a male superhero in the same position.

It was an agreeing position, I just quoted so people know where my stance came from conversation-wise

I don't imagine we'd ever see Batman with a terrified look in his face and a tear coming out of his eye no matter what situation Joker managed to put him in.

Nope. Crying is apparently a girl thing.

 

[Parallax]

The fact that writers don't dedicate pages of content to that is the difference.

except that hes faced the encounter when he met talia. and even if not, just because he isnt talking about it, it doesnt change what it is.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

Why does she have to be in a weak position? Cause she's a girl? Because that's all I'm seeing from this argument. Why can't she just look pissed/agitated? Why does she have to be in tears? That's what equal representation in comics is. That's what "social crusaders" (people around here seem to love to hate) are asking for.

The fact that writers don't dedicate pages of content to that is the difference.

No, not because she is a girl. Because she is younger, less experienced, less driven and less emotionally cold than Bruce Wayne. Equal representation in all characters is boring. Babs being an amateur hero, a college girl who is doing this on her own is what makes her interesting. There is definitely a place for a badass heroine that's just as hard as Batman but it doesn't need to be Batgirl.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Personally, I don't feel the cover, in a vacuum, is offensive. It's a reference to a previous story, and an iconic one that defined the character.

The problem, is that the events of the killing joke were allowed to define her, and unlike other, male heroes, she is continually characterized as being a victim.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

I don't imagine we'd ever see Batman with a terrified look in his face and a tear coming out of his eye no matter what situation Joker managed to put him in.

There was that storyline when a reality warping joker tortured Batman so bad that batman was BEGGING Superman to kill him.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Because it happens to everyone regardless of gender? how is it equal representation if there are a whole bunch of subjects/topics/themes that you aren't allowed to have a women portray?

Yeah, that's not really supporting your point.

Guys are allowed to mourn the death of friends.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Personally, I don't feel the cover, in a vacuum, is offensive. It's a reference to a previous story, and an iconic one that defined the character.

The problem, is that the events of the killing joke were allowed to define her, and unlike other, male heroes, she is continually characterized as being a victim.

A lot of these characters - both male and female - are frozen in time in many respects with their traumatic origins defining them for an eternity (I'm looking at you Batman).

I don't imagine we'd ever see Batman with a terrified look in his face and a tear coming out of his eye no matter what situation Joker managed to put him in.

You won't see that because Batman famously internalises his fear and rage. That's part and parcel of the Batman character.

 

[Slayven]

Personally, I don't feel the cover, in a vacuum, is offensive. It's a reference to a previous story, and an iconic one that defined the character.

The problem, is that the events of the killing joke were allowed to define her, and unlike other, male heroes, she is continually characterized as being a victim.

Blame DC for reconning Oracle.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Joker has always been an equal opportunity killer, Batgirl could be easily be swapped with a teen Robin and the variant cover would still work.

 

[Beerman462]

No, not because she is a girl. Because she is younger, less experienced, less driven and less emotionally cold than Bruce Wayne. Equal representation in all characters is boring. Babs being an amateur hero, a college girl who is doing this on her own is what makes her interesting. There is definitely a place for a badass heroine that's just as hard as Batman but it doesn't need to be Batgirl.

Bingo

 

[Fuzzy]

I like it.

 

[Mudcrab]

Nope. Crying is apparently a girl thing.

C'mon.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Joker has always been an equal opportunity killer, Batgirl could be easily be swapped with a teen Robin and the variant cover would still work.

Replace the gun with a crowbar, whabam!

Did Babs and Dick ever have a thing in the New 52?