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[The Adder]

Reading through the thread, I'm still finding it very difficult to find a footing for the argument against the use of this cover.

Did you read:

You know what DOES really bother me about this cover, and a lot of the Killing Joke references?

Joker never shot Batgirl.

He shot a Barbara Gordon who had already retired from the superhero life some time ago.

I think it's a shitty thing to do to put her in the costume and reference TKJ. That's not the Babs he shot. That Babs wouldn't have let it happen. And even if she did the costume represents you as something more than yourself. It is an aegis against your fears as a civilian. If they HAD to make her Batgirl again (they shouldn't have), I would have preferred they explore that idea than the "Oh I must get over this trauma!" bullshit.

 

[MHWilliams]

What do the other covers look like?

 

[Kinyou]

I'd also be against a cover that rehashes any poorly written sexual assault with any victim. If batman was tied up and crying while Talia was gloating over him, I'd be just as angry

Yeah, but this isn't that. This isn't the Joker taking pictures of a naked batgirl. That this is a reference to him shooting her more than to what happened afterwards seems pretty clear to me.

 

[Angelus Errare]

As others have noted because Barbara Batgirl has been marketed toward females now. They've moved past her recovery, ptsd and survivors guilt (mirrorman) toward whatever she is now.

A shit variation of Stephanie Brown because they didn't know what to do with Barbara who's a teen again because reasons.

 

[Popnbake]

she wont get what she wants from the encounter. even paralyzed, joker will have won, and would be laughing in the end. honestly the only person i can think that really pissed the joker off was lex luthor

and what did he do to achieve that?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

What do the other covers look like?

They're mostly jokey, with some cool abstract imagery.

This Yahoo post collects most of them.

This really does seem like it's the only one trying to be overtly disturbing/scary.

 

[WrenchNinja]

and what did he do to achieve that?

Alex Luthor didn't invited him for the big villain team up during Infinite Crisis

 

[Kinyou]

What do the other covers look like?

You can see them here

Edit: beaten

 

[Balphon]

I don't know much about Batgirl, but I would imagine that portraying her as weak and victimized is generally inconsistent with her character, given that she is a superhero. To say nothing of the fact that similar depictions of prominent male superheroes seem to be rare bordering on nonexistent.

 

[Opto]

oh...i think if anyone is showing the colors here are you...and please this is not the first time i see you use the "you are mra" angle with a poster who is having a argument with you

way to ignore other posters who are calling you in your obvious contradictions

Usually because I get into arguments with MRAs

 

[Sibersk Esto]

What do the other covers look like?

http://www.newsarama.com/23802-dc-comics-shows-off-june-2015-joker-variant-covers.html

 

[IrishNinja]

Joker is promoting Run The Jewels

this was my takeaway too, yeah

No, that's Marvel:

thatsthejoke.jpg but for real, i need both those covers

 

[not_so_special]

Usually because I get into arguments with MRAs

to you anyone in this forum who dont pledge to you point of view its a mra,so...

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

I don't know much about Batgirl, but I would imagine that portraying her as weak and victimized is generally inconsistent with her character, given that she is a superhero. To say nothing of the fact that similar depictions of prominent male superheroes seem to be rare bordering on nonexistent.

Which isn't true...unless we're only limiting our discussion to covers, and more specifically Batman covers. In the stories every character has moments of weakness and being the victim. Spiderman has covers where he's shown crying or being in such situations.

 

[Parallax]

and what did he do to achieve that?

taunted him about how although he chases batman, batman will never see him the same way

 

[Sibersk Esto]

and what did he do to achieve that?

 

[ZoddGutts]

Well this thread went to certain places as expected. Oh and DC staying edgy as ever to stay relevant.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Damn.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

The thing to remember here is this:

The people getting upset over this are not the everyday joe and josephine. There is a metric shit-load of history and backstory not only of Batman but of how DC treats their female employees and fictional female superheroes to take in if you want the full context.

So, knowing the history behind this story and the metaphor of this cover, I can strongly say that I'm very much conflicted over this.

On one hand: it's just a villain being a douche.
On the other hand: it's DC very transparently stirring the pot by implying rape of an underage female hero.

I mean, this is DC we're talking about here. They made the "Rape Pages". They obviously know what they are doing.

 

[Balphon]

Which isn't true...unless we're only limiting our discussion to covers, and more specifically Batman covers. In the stories every character has moments of weakness and being the victim. Spiderman has covers where he's shown crying or being in such situations.

I'm not versed in superhero comics, but I find it hard to believe that depictions of superheroes crying in fear of super villains are common. It seems entirely antithetical to the concept of a superhero.

 

[Messi]

They're mostly jokey, with some cool abstract imagery.

This Yahoo post collects most of them.

This really does seem like it's the only one trying to be overtly disturbing/scary.

Because that is the kind of art he does. Look at his Batwoman covers.

 

[Terrell]

The "controversy" is probably faux outrage, manufactured to raise interest, it's standard for Joker to be like that.

This isn't about what's expected of Joker. It's about what's expected of Barbara.
Seriously, people on this forum will rail against Metroid Other M for Samus' portrayal but somehow when confronted with what can be considered the exact same problem in another medium, the response is "ehh, whatev".

 

[nintendork666]

I don't understand what's supposed to be offensive?

 

[Sandfox]

The thing to remember here is this:

The people getting upset over this are not the everyday joe and josephine. There is a metric shit-load of history and backstory not only of Batman but of how DC treats their female employees and fictional female superheroes to take in if you want the full context.

So, knowing the history behind this story and the metaphor of this cover, I can strongly say that I'm very much conflicted over this.

On one hand: it's just a villain being a douche.
On the other hand: it's DC very transparently stirring the pot by implying rape of an underage female hero.

I mean, this is DC we're talking about here. They made the "Rape Pages". They obviously know what they are doing.

And then you're going into the debate over whether its ok to portray rape/sexual assault in stories.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

I'm not versed in superhero comics, but I find it hard to believe that depictions of superheroes crying in fear of super villains are common.

Nor is a cover like this common. So what's your point?

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I don't understand what's supposed to be offensive?

It's a callback to a story where it is heavily implied Joker raped Barbara Gordon.

And then you're going into the debate over whether its ok to portray rape/sexual assault in stories.

Or at least in what context, and in what style, etc.

Comics have never done sexual assault "well" at all.

 

[Volimar]

Which isn't true...unless we're only limiting our discussion to covers, and more specifically Batman covers. In the stories every character has moments of weakness and being the victim. Spiderman has covers where he's shown crying or being in such situations.

Crying over the loss of a loved one, or sorrow in general is very different than being terrified and helpless. Forgetting the callback for a moment, Batgirl has faced armed assailants and the Joker loads of times. There's no reason she should be that afraid, except that the artist wanted her to be. Now, taking into account the callback it makes some sense except where it doesn't as stated previously in the thread.

 

[Opto]

to you anyone in this forum who dont pledge to you point of view its a mra,so...

or willfully ignorant sexists that don't subscribe to the most basic of feminist theory, which would at least give you a modicum of understanding on people would be upset by this kind of cover.

 

[Mael]

And then you're going into the debate over whether its ok to portray rape/sexual assault in stories.

I don't think there's a problem with depicting that kind of stuff in any medium.
The problem is how they're treated and what it brings to the story.
If it's for shock value or some crap like that, it's better to do anything else at all.

 

[not_so_special]

or willfully ignorant sexists that don't subscribe to the most basic of feminist theory,.

and you were talking about showing colors....oh the irony

 

[AuthenticM]

What's wrong ? It's the joker torturing someone in the bat familly, like he always did. Stop making this an gender issue

I think some people are fucking stupid. Not in an opinionated, based on your perspective, sort of way, but in an objective, "you're actually a dumbass" sort of way

.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

I'm not versed in superhero comics, but I find it hard to believe that depictions of superheroes crying in fear of super villains are common. It seems entirely antithetical to the concept of a superhero.

Superheroes crying over traumatic events IS common. The fact that it's Joker allows you guys to make this into a "she's crying over facing the Joker" issue, when it's really her crying over a callback to something traumatic that occurred

And read Invisibles. A male character

Spoiler

gets raped and anytime he sees the rapist he's visibly spooked by her

 

[Opto]

and you were talking about showing colors....oh the irony

being a feminist is a bad color?

 

[Balphon]

Nor is a cover like this common. So what's your point?

That a male character likely wouldn't be depicted in this manner. It would come off as absurd.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Because that is the kind of art he does.

Which goes to my initial point that maybe taking a lighthearted book and a lighthearted character to put the only intentionally disturbing variant out of 25 on maybe wasn't the best call, and executing the concept in another manner (and maybe with a different artist, if Albuquerque didn't want to modify it) might have sidestepped a lot of this reaction entirely.

And then the argument becomes is the image in and of itself strong enough to not only withstand, but justify that choice?

Which is probably what the argument SHOULD be as opposed to how many rapes we can tally on the Superhero Rape Leaderboard as a means to establish "fairness" in the discussion.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I don't think there's a problem with depicting that kind of stuff in any medium.
The problem is how they're treated and what it brings to the story.
If it's for shock value or some crap like that, it's better to do anything else at all.

Killing Stephanie Brown with a power drill because Dan DiDio doesn't want to scare off the male readers with a female Robin.

.

I don't get it. Are you showcasing the stupidity of those posts or are you actually agreeing that anyone who partakes in gender discussion is just stupid as dirt?

 

[not_so_special]

being a feminist is a bad color?

no..being totally agressive,calling names,insulting me,etc etc

 

[Parallax]

Killing Stephanie Brown with a power drill because Dan DiDio doesn't want to scare off the male readers with a female Robin.

stephanie brown has always been a garbage character.

 

[The Adder]

Usually because I get into arguments with MRAs

Alternatively you're perceiving people who simply don't agree with your viewpoints as vicious enemies in order to devalue their opinions and feel better about your inability to sway them to your point of view.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Which goes to my initial point that maybe taking a lighthearted book and a lighthearted character to put the only intentionally disturbing variant on maybe wasn't the best call, and executing the concept in another manner might have sidestepped a lot of this reaction entirely.

And then the argument becomes is the image in and of itself strong enough to not only withstand, but justify that choice?

Which is probably what the argument SHOULD be as opposed to how many rapes we can tally on the Superhero Rape Leaderboard as a means to establish "fairness" in the discussion.

Variant covers have never had to be justified before. Why would they suddenly have to be now? The point is that they're not necessarily related to the current comic events. They're simply covers using the characters. Why should it matter if they're darker/lighter than the current story? That's completely irrelevant

 

[Opto]

no..being totally agressive,calling names,insulting me,etc etc

hey dude, it was your choice to get offended

 

[not_so_special]

hey dude, it was your choice to get offended

‘I’ve been called worse things by better people' so no..im not offended,im used to people like you

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Variant covers have never had to be justified before. Why would they suddenly have to be now? The point is that they're not necessarily related to the current comic events. They're simply covers using the characters. Why should it matter if they're darker/lighter than the current story? That's completely irrelevant

It's not irrelevant due to the nature of variants, which are typically subverting the straight-faced/serious subject matter of the book, or are simply excuses to showcase pinups/cool scenes/visuals for the sake of showcasing them. It's not all that common, I don't think, for a variant to take a lighthearted book and imagine it as scary/disturbing. Is it? Because I can't come up with any, and so far (I'm sure there's some people googling for examples, considering how many straight up comics scholars there are here) nobody's posted any.

And also, going to "it's a variant, it doesn't need to justify itself" while simultaneously pursuing the line of discussion that tries to justify it by pointing out how many male superheroes have been raped and nobody made a big deal is contradictory, isn't it?

Basically - if there are examples of a variant taking something good natured and making it disturbing and nobody made a fuss, I wanna see those examples, and those examples might make more of a point.

 

[Balphon]

Superheroes crying over traumatic events IS common. The fact that it's Joker allows you guys to make this into a "she's crying over facing the Joker" issue, when it's really her crying over a callback to something traumatic that occurred

And read Invisibles. A male character

Spoiler

gets raped and anytime he sees the rapist he's visibly spooked by her

Now I have one of you telling me this is common and another telling me it isn't.

I will go ahead and say that a similar image portraying Nightwing or whoever would come off as ridiculous, and that likely reveals the issue people have with it.

Honestly, though, I am not invested in this enough to argue with you.

 

[Maximo]

being a feminist is a bad color?

Your really throwing that Comment at him, like really ?

 

[Mael]

Killing Stephanie Brown with a power drill because Dan DiDio doesn't want to scare off the male readers with a female Robin.

I read my share of stupid thing, I mean I still read Bleach ffs
That's a questionable reason to do something stupid.

oh and not_so_special and opto, get a room.

 

[Kinyou]

Variant covers have never had to be justified before. Why would they suddenly have to be now? The point is that they're not necessarily related to the current comic events. They're simply covers using the characters. Why should it matter if they're darker/lighter than the current story? That's completely irrelevant

Aren't there also serious books that get the super cutsey variant cover treatment? I mean, I can understand that someone might ask why they didn't take a step back and wonder if this is an actual fit, but at the same time I understand why they wouldn't.

 

[Opto]

Alternatively you're perceiving people who simply don't agree with your viewpoints as vicious enemies in order to devalue their opinions and feel better about your inability to sway them to your point of view.

Or rather I get upset when people don't see how this can really make someone upset, even after it's explained again and again on why something can be sexist.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

Now I have one of you telling me this is common and another telling me it isn't.

I will go ahead and say that a similar image portraying Nightwing or whoever would come off as ridiculous, and that likely reveals the issue people have with it.

Honestly, though, I am not invested in this enough to argue with you.

I meant in cover form. Plenty of male characters have had traumatic, fear, vulnerable, or plain victimized in comics before.

 

[not_so_special]

Or rather I get upset when people don't see how this can really make someone upset, even after it's explained again and again on why something can be sexist.

can i remember your first post in this thread?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=155864104&postcount=258

yuo..that one...you said about explain again and again?