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[George Oscar Bluth II]

When I was younger and hadn't watched RotJ, I used to just think that Leia was just Force sensitive and that's how she told Lando that they had to go back for Luke. I also guessed that Vader felt that she was Force sensitive. Then I find out she's Luke's sister, which I didn't actually like all that much.

 

[MattyG]

I mean, wouldn't he feel the force though?
And on a side note, why would Luke keep the Skywalker name. Someone must've thought it was a bad idea to keep the name of a famous Jedi when every other Jedi got murdered.

I don't think the general public knew what Anakin had done. They saw Anakin as a hero of the Clone Wars, but they didn't know that he became Darth Vader

Spoiler

and... killed... younglings.

 

[JeffZero]

Dark Horse opinion (couldn't resist) but I have always liked Maul dying at the end of Episode I. McGregor's Obi-Wan stepping up to the plate like that, the clean cut in two and subsequent look on Maul's face... it's good stuff. Maybe my having seen the movie when I was like 11 helps, but really, I've rewatched it over a dozen times and never really changed my mind. I am still lukewarm on his being brought back for Clone Wars, heh.

 

[curb]

Dark Horse opinion (couldn't resist) but I have always liked Maul dying at the end of Episode I. McGregor's Obi-Wan stepping up to the plate like that, the clean cut in two and subsequent look on Maul's face... it's good stuff. Maybe my having seen the movie when I was like 11 helps, but really, I've rewatched it over a dozen times and never really changed my mind. I am still lukewarm on his being brought back for Clone Wars, heh.

My only problem with Maul's end in Phantom Menace was how he barely seemed to react. He just kinda stands there and watches Obi-Wan flip over him. I know it's super picky but I would have thought he'd at least try attempt to defend himself. Raise his lightsaber or something...

Maul's return in Clone Wars grew on me by the end which is why I think I'm okay with his short stint in the prequels. I know he was lacking in personality in Phantom Menace but I personally think he had the potential to be more interesting than Dooku.

 

[brandonh83]

Maul returning for Clone Wars, which is canon, has been pretty cool (I'm still making my way through season 5) but my god is it dumb as fucccckkk. I don't care what kind of Force space magic shenanigan bullshit you pull out of your ass, he was not walking away from that.

 

[Gravidee]

I think killing off Maul was a bad idea. They should've kept him as a revenge plot for Obi Wan AT THE LEAST. It would've been awesome.

They thought it was such a bad idea killing him off that they brought him back to life in The Clone Wars. Yeah, this is canon too.

...But surprisingly I think they actually did a pretty good job with his arc and character.

 

[Cheebo]

When I first heard what they were doing with bringing Maul back I was very wary, but they pulled it off.

 

[JeffZero]

I know he was lacking in personality in Phantom Menace but I personally think he had the potential to be more interesting than Dooku.

I can definitely agree with this assessment. Maul, for all his quiet fury, somehow managed to come across as far more appealing in his film than anything Dooku ever did until Dooku's very last scene. (The look on Christopher Lee's face as he realizes his fate is just so. Good.)

 

[curb]

When I first heard what they were doing with bringing Maul back I was very wary, but they pulled it off.

Personally, the name "Savage Opress" made me more wary than any reservations I ever had about bringing Maul back.

I can definitely agree with this assessment. Maul, for all his quiet fury, somehow managed to come across as far more appealing in his film than anything Dooku ever did until Dooku's very last scene. (The look on Christopher Lee's face as he realizes his fate is just so. Good.)

As I think about it, Clone Wars Dooku was pretty decent too but in the end, I think I would have rather seen more Maul in the prequels.

 

[Blader]

I agree. I mean, I get the hate--Yub Nub is cheese of the highest order--but it isn't out of place for the direction of the film as a whole (say what you will about the ewoks, but they are there, they happened). More importantly, the original ending has a certain fun/triumphant rhythm to it and I'm talking about more than just the song. The way it is cut and how the characters interact is very rhythmic and complements the music, which is largely lost with Victory Celebration. The new song is good IMO, but it doesn't fit the context of the scene very well and feels tonally removed from the rest of the film (and the OT as a whole, really). The awkward cuts to the other planets do not help and just further break that rhythm, which makes it feel flat in comparison.

See, I actually think just the opposite. I always found that Victory Celebration was cued better with what was happening on screening (whether it's the characters hugging and shaking hands, to the Ewoks playing drums with the imperial helmets) better than Yub Nub did.

The cuts to different planets occurs before the song starts anyway. And outside of the Gungan "weesa free!" I never minded the montage either. Like the song itself, it better reflects the "holy shit this win was a big deal!" of the ending.

So quick question regarding empires.

How come Vader doesn't realize Leia is a Skywalker? I mean I get that in A new hope it was never planned for Leia and Luke to be related but it's weird he doesn't care about her in empires.

Or maybe he did and ignored it? Idk

Vader didn't know he had two kids. No one knew Padme was pregnant with twins until she gave birth.

 

[Mr. RHC]

Imma let you finish but Qui-Gon Jinn is one of my favourite Star Wars characters of all time. Such a pitty he got #rekt.

Not even sure if people mentioned him here or in the other thread, thought I'd let you know.
Such a boss.

 

[curb]

Imma let you finish but Qui-Gon Jinn is one of my favourite Star Wars characters of all time. Such a pitty he got #rekt.

Not even sure if people mentioned him here or in the other thread, thought I'd let you know.
Such a boss.

I just rewatched the prequels recently and was reminded about how much I liked his character. I would love a comic or some kind of stories of him as Dooku's apprentice.

 

[Ushojax]

My only problem with Maul's end in Phantom Menace was how he barely seemed to react. He just kinda stands there and watches Obi-Wan flip over him. I know it's super picky but I would have thought he'd at least try attempt to defend himself. Raise his lightsaber or something...

Maul's return in Clone Wars grew on me by the end which is why I think I'm okay with his short stint in the prequels. I know he was lacking in personality in Phantom Menace but I personally think he had the potential to be more interesting than Dooku.

Dooku could have been great, especially if we had seen him in TPM so we'd see a Jedi fall to the dark side before Anakin. He could have been on the council when Qui-Gon brings Anakin and argued in favour of him being trained, before leaving the order after Qui-Gon dies.

Of course Lucas didn't really plan ahead when writing the prequels so he just appears out of nowhere and we hear about his backstory in dull expository scenes. I really liked Christopher Lee's performance and the character had a lot of potential to his relationships with Yoda and Qui-Gon. Like many things in the prequels it was a failure to execute a good idea. Seeing Yoda's apprentice fall to the dark side on screen would have added a lot to the saga.

 

[curb]

Dooku could have been great, especially if we had seen him in TPM so we'd see a Jedi fall to the dark side before Anakin. He could have been on the council when Qui-Gon brings Anakin and argued in favour of him being trained, before leaving the order after Qui-Gon dies.

Actually yeah, that sounds pretty good.

 

[CitizenVectron]

I hate how Lucas clearly didn't have an idea for all 3 movies when he started TPM. They are so disjointed, there is no flow. It's fine to have new characters added over time, but it's like the 3 movies don't even really work together.

 

[brandonh83]

Of course Lucas didn't really plan ahead when writing the prequels so he just appears out of nowhere and we hear about his backstory in dull expository scenes. I really liked Christopher Lee's performance and the character had a lot of potential to his relationships with Yoda and Qui-Gon. Like many things in the prequels it was a failure to execute a good idea. Seeing Yoda's apprentice fall to the dark side on screen would have added a lot to the saga.

Agreed, but I still liked him a lot and fortunately the Clone Wars series really gives him a lot of development. That series really did make the prequels better in some ways.

 

[Asami208]

The problem with the PT villains is that they all just kind of appeared out of nowhere with very little to any buildup, and none were developed enough. You could say that Sheev was the overarching villain, but he was mostly scheming behind the scenes. He didn't openly come out as a villain until midway through the third movie. Contrast that with Vader, who was out there doing stuff in all three movies. The PT needed a villain like that. And Maul was the best option imo. Hell he killed Obi Wan's mentor right in front of him (and his former lover as well in TCW). There's a great basis for a rivalry right there. But no, it gets resolved like 5 minutes later, lame.

 

[curb]

Agreed, but I still liked him a lot and fortunately the Clone Wars series really gives him a lot of development. That series really did make the prequels better in some ways.

I agree on this. It redeemed certain aspects of the prequels for me in a way that allows me to enjoy them for what they are, not what they are not. As a whole I don't think they are overly great films but I can find enjoyment in the nonetheless.

 

[brandonh83]

The problem with the PT villains is that they all just kind of appeared out of nowhere with very little to any buildup, and none were developed enough.

You kind of have to look at them as pawns that he had lined up to use whenever he needed to his advantage. Having Dooku in Episode I wouldn't have worked because of Maul and there only being two at a time, and it makes sense for Sheeev to have worked at Dooku after the events of Episode I since Maul skinned his knee. There's a ten year gap between the first two, and that's a lot of time for new things to come into play.

I agree with Usho in that I think Lucas could have had Dooku be present in Episode I though with some seeds planted toward his role in II and III, but nonetheless it still makes sense.

 

[Asami208]

Maul returning for Clone Wars, which is canon, has been pretty cool (I'm still making my way through season 5) but my god is it dumb as fucccckkk. I don't care what kind of Force space magic shenanigan bullshit you pull out of your ass, he was not walking away from that.

He's an alien, maybe his physiology is different. It makes more sense than Anakin (a human) getting all of his limbs cut off and then burned to a crisp by lava (btw, the same lava that conveniently didn't burn either him or Obi Wan mere minutes before, when they were CLOSER to it) and somehow surviving.

 

[TheKaeptain]

Imma let you finish but Qui-Gon Jinn is one of my favourite Star Wars characters of all time. Such a pitty he got #rekt.

Not even sure if people mentioned him here or in the other thread, thought I'd let you know.
Such a boss.

He was the mentor of the greatest Jedi of all time Obi-Wan so Qui-Gon is the shit in my eyes.

 

[curb]

I never knew Palpatine had a first name. Of course he did, why wouldn't I know that.

 

[brandonh83]

He's an alien, maybe his physiology is different. It makes more sense than Anakin (a human) getting all of his limbs cut off and then burned to a crisp by lava (btw, the same lava that conveniently didn't burn either him or Obi Wan mere minutes before, when they were CLOSER to it) and somehow surviving.

I don't usually strain myself too hard thinking about stuff like this, but I seriously don't buy him surviving that at all. But it's all in good fun so whatever.

 

[Slixshot]

Are we not allowed to post the Rogue One leak on here?

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Another problem with the PT villains is that they were all pawns of Darth Sidious. It gets old, even if they could have been good villains.

The OT had Grand Moff Tarkin, Boba Fett, and Jabba the Hutt. All varied characters who expanded the Star Wars universe instead fitting a repetitive formula.

 

[JeffZero]

I love the idea of having Dooku as a Jedi in Episode I. That would have gone a log way.

 

[inky]

Are we not allowed to post the Rogue One leak on here?

You are allowed to PM it to me. I haven't seen it yet

 

[brandonh83]

Another problem with the PT villains is that they were all pawns of Darth Sidious. It gets old, even if they were good villains.

The OT had Grand Moff Tarkin, Boba Fett, and Jabba the Hutt. All varied characters who expanded the Star Wars universe instead fitting a repetitive formula.

Uh... I'm not sure I would use those three in offense of the prequel villains.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Uh... I'm not sure I would use those three in offense of the prequel villains.

They're not "counterparts" of the prequel villains. Vader and the Emperor fit that role. They serve to expand the fictional universe, however.

Whereas Maul, Dooku and Grievous do nothing to expand the universe. They just play "the pawn of Darth Sidious". It's the same role all three times.

 

[brandonh83]

Whereas Maul, Dooku and Grievous do nothing to expand the universe. They just play "the pawn of Darth Sidious". It's the same role every time.

Boba Fett takes Han Solo to Jabba and dies in comedic fashion. That's literally less than what Darth Maul contributes to the story, which is killing Qui-Gon which leads to Qui-Gon discovering how to live on through the Force. Maul also represents the Sith presence and how dangerous it is. Jabba is just an asshole that sits back and blabbers and got strangled by Leia-- barely contributed anything to... anything. Jabba existed to have the characters in a perilous situation at the beginning of VI. Tarkin is in A New Hope for just a bit and doesn't really do anything either and blows up along with the Death Star.

So I'm not really seeing how the villains in the originals are so much better. I wouldn't even call Boba Fett some major villain. The characters you listed are just as much side characters as the ones in the prequels that serve a purpose in context to their movies. You may like what revolves around those characters in the originals more, but when it comes to development and story contribution, yeah...

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Boba Fett takes Han Solo to Jabba and dies in comedic fashion. That's literally less than what Darth Maul contributes to the story, which is killing Qui-Gon which leads to Qui-Gon discovering how to live on through the Force. Maul also represents the Sith presence and how dangerous it is. Jabba is just an asshole that sits back and blabbers and got strangled by Leia-- barely contributed anything to... anything. Jabba existed to have the characters in a perilous situation at the beginning of VI. Tarkin is in A New Hope for just a bit and doesn't really do anything either and blows up along with the Death Star.

So I'm not really seeing how the villains in the originals are so much better. I wouldn't even call Boba Fett some major villain. The characters you listed are just as much side characters as the ones in the prequels that serve a purpose in context to their movies. You may like what revolves around those characters in the originals more, but when it comes to development and story contribution, yeah...

The thing that makes them all better characters is the execution, not the concept.

On a conceptual level Jar Jar plays a bigger role in the PT story than Chewbacca in the OT, since he's the one to bring up the vote for emergency powers to the chancellor, whereas Chewie is just a copilot.

That example should make it 100% clear that concept isn't what matters most.

 

[brandonh83]

That example should make it 100% clear that concept isn't what matters most.

I simply disagree that those characters played less of a role or weren't as important as the likes of Boba Fett. We can argue subjectivity all day. I thought Dooku was a hell of a lot more interesting than Tarkin or Boba Fett for example but that's just an opinion coming from a guy that never gave a shit about Tarkin or Boba Fett. Just because they're Sidious' pawns doesn't make them lesser. Tarkin could be considered a throwaway Sidious pawn if we really wanted to get down to it.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I simply disagree that those characters played less of a role or weren't as important as the likes of Boba Fett. We can argue subjectivity all day. I thought Dooku was a hell of a lot more interesting than Tarkin or Boba Fett for example but that's just an opinion coming from a guy that never gave a shit about Tarkin or Boba Fett. Just because they're Sidious' pawns doesn't make them lesser. Tarkin could be considered a throwaway Sidious pawn if we really wanted to get down to it.

You're still missing the point. What makes certain characters memorable is the performances behind them, and not whether or not they played a pivotal part in the story.

 

[Bucket Mouse]

I like the Yub Nub ending, it's the original and it works.

However, the new Victory Theme music is one of the rare SE changes that has some feeling of legitimacy by virtue of it being a lush Williams track and not this weird psych freakout ditty written by his son from Toto. The way it crescendos as the force ghosts appear is great. The galactic celebration inserts are out of place, however.

 

[brandonh83]

You're still missing the point. What makes certain characters memorable is the performances behind them, and not whether or not they played a pivotal part in the story.

I didn't say they weren't memorable, but people also thought Maul, Dooku and Grievous were memorable. I certainly did. And by performances... what do you mean exactly? Cushing's performance as Tarkin was obviously good, but Boba Fett or Jabba?

 

[Blader]

Uh... I'm not sure I would use those three in offense of the prequel villains.

I think what he's saying is that they serve different functions in the story: Tarkin is a governor within the Empire, while Boba Fett is just a hired gun and Jabba is a completely independent gangster who has nothing to do with any of them. They represent new parts of the Star Wars universe (or in Tarkin's case, within the Empire). Whereas Maul, Dooku, and Grievous are all part of the same fold: two are Sith apprentices, two are Separatist generals, all three are Sidious pawns.

 

[brandonh83]

I think what he's saying is that they serve different functions in the story: Tarkin is a governor within the Empire, while Boba Fett is just a hired gun and Jabba is a completely independent gangster who has nothing to do with any of them. They represent new parts of the Star Wars universe (or in Tarkin's case, within the Empire). Whereas Maul, Dooku, and Grievous are all part of the same fold: two are Sith apprentices, two are Separatist generals, all three are Sidious pawns.

Grievous and Dooku played massive roles in the clone wars. They were still individual characters with their own personalities and served functions in their stories as well. Tarkin and Darth Vader are also Sidious pawns. Every single everyone in the Empire are pawns of Sidious. I don't see how that makes them lesser characters. But I didn't hate the prequels or these characters so maybe you guys just aren't making points that I can personally relate to. I always thought Fett was disposable as hell. Kind of like the writers.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I didn't say they weren't memorable, but people also thought Maul, Dooku and Grievous were memorable. I certainly did. And by performances... what do you mean exactly? Cushing's performance as Tarkin was obviously good, but Boba Fett or Jabba?

It's really simple. Looking at Maul, Grievous and Dooku, what is it that made those characters memorable? How much is due to the costumes, visual design and acrobatics, and how much is due to actual lines spoken by the characters that reflect an interesting personality? Or by how other characters in the films react to those personalities?

 

[Blader]

Grievous and Dooku played massive roles in the clone wars. They were still individual characters with their own personalities and served functions in their stories as well. Tarkin and Darth Vader are also Sidious pawns. Every single everyone in the Empire are pawns of Sidious. I don't see how that makes them lesser characters. But I didn't hate the prequels or these characters so maybe you guys just aren't making points that I can personally relate to. I always thought Fett was disposable as hell.

again, he's not saying how big or small they are to the story, but what kind of character they are. Maul is a lightsaber-wielding Sith, Dooku is a lightsaber-wielding Sith, Grievous is a lightsaber-wielding...thing. They all march in Sidious' army.

Tarkin, while also in the Empire, is more political; he's not a combatant, he doesn't fight anyone, and he represents what ends up being a pretty unique role in the Empire (since all other major bad guys are all Siths). Boba Fett and Jabba aren't even part of the Empire, they have their own backgrounds, their own allegiances (or lack thereof) and are brought in tangentially to the story.

Maul and Dooku play bigger roles in the saga than Fett or Jabba, but I think his point is that Fett and Jabba introduced new archetypes into the series while Maul and Dooku and Grievous were more retreads on the same basic model. It's not a matter of who did more/less or who was better than who, but how different they are from one another.

 

[brandonh83]

It's really simple. Looking at Maul, Grievous and Dooku, what is it that made those characters memorable? How much is due to the costumes, visual design and acrobatics, and how much is due to actual lines spoken by the characters that reflect an interesting personality?

And that couldn't be applied to Boba Fett as well? The only reason people like Boba Fett is because he looked cool.

 

[Deadly]

Really surprised at the Yub-Nub lovers here. I thought you were more of a minority but most post seem to indicate Yub-Nub is preferred to Victory Celebration.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

And that couldn't be applied to Boba Fett as well? The only reason people like Boba Fett is because he looked cool.

I added another point in an edit to address that, namely how other characters react to these characters. In the cases of Tarkin and Fett, we get to see each of them in a discussion with Vader, and in each case we get to see that Vader (the meanest dude in the galaxy who doesn't think twice about force choking anyone who slightly gets on his nerves) respects them. That's huge, as far as sending a message to the audience about who these guys are. It's much more powerful than just having them perform fancy acrobatics.

 

[rekameohs]

Really surprised at the Yub-Nub lovers here. I thought you were more of a minority but most post seem to indicate Yub-Nub is preferred to Victory Celebration.

I don't think it is. We're just a vocal minority.

 

[BrokenFiction]

It's really simple. Looking at Maul, Grievous and Dooku, what is it that made those characters memorable? How much is due to the costumes, visual design and acrobatics, and how much is due to actual lines spoken by the characters that reflect an interesting personality? Or by how other characters in the films react to those personalities?

Maul had one line that should have kicked off a great movie, but they went nowhere with it. "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have our revenge."

So much potential wasted in those two little sentences. Plus, I love how Peter Fucking Serafinowicz's voice was so quiet and measured, compared to the look of Maul. Critical fail with this character.

 

[brandonh83]

I added another point in an edit to address that, namely how other characters react to these characters. In the cases of Tarkin and Fett, we get to see each of them in a discussion with Vader, and in each case we get to see that Vader (the meanest dude in the galaxy) respects them. That's huge, as far as sending a message to the audience about who these guys are. It's much more powerful than just having them perform fancy acrobatics.

Maul and Palpatine have alone bro time in Episode I so I guess that makes Maul super important too, and Vader is "much more forgiving" than Palpatine. We'll just have to agree to disagree. The points you're making may justify why you think so, personally, but they're not doing anything for me. Simply saying that "because they talk to Vader" doesn't mean anything significant to me, but if it does for you that's cool.

 

[phazedplasma]

Maul had one line that should have kicked off a great movie, but they went nowhere with it. "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have our revenge."

So much potential wasted in those two little sentences. Plus, I love how Peter Fucking Serafinowicz's voice was so quiet and measured, compared to the look of Maul. Critical fail with this character.

Yeah but considering the people making the decisions surrounding the prequels was there really and potential to waste to begin with?

 

[injurai]

Imma let you finish but Qui-Gon Jinn is one of my favourite Star Wars characters of all time. Such a pitty he got #rekt.

Not even sure if people mentioned him here or in the other thread, thought I'd let you know.
Such a boss.

Loved his character in Clone Wars (2003-2005)

For how irrelevant ep1 is I still really enjoy it as a movie.

I don't think it is. We're just a vocal minority.

This is the first thread I've come to know people that prefer the victory celebration.

 

[BrokenFiction]

Yeah but considering the people making the decisions surrounding the prequels was there really and potential to waste to begin with?

That's my point. The character had a great look, a great physical actor, a great vocal actor, and an interesting setup.

Then he ran into the Lucas buzzsaw of mediocrity.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Maul and Palpatine have alone bro time in Episode I so I guess that makes Maul super important too, and Vader is "much more forgiving" than Palpatine. We'll just have to agree to disagree. The points you're making may justify why you think so, personally, but they're not doing anything for me. Simply saying that "because they talk to Vader" doesn't mean anything significant to me, but if it does for you that's cool.

It's not "because they talk to Vader", it's because of how they talk to him and how he reacts.
They question his authority, they put their foot down, and he concedes. Where else does Vader ever concede to anybody in the OT who isn't the emperor or Luke?

More importantly, can you provide any exampleof similar behavior with regard to Maul, Dooku or Grievous? All we ever see or hear from them is following orders. Where are the scenes that demonstrate that these characters are feared and revered in their own right?

 

[Asami208]

Grevious sure as Hell isn't. The Jedi dismiss him as a "coward" out of hand.