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[Arkage]

Where?!

The only pack that seems expensive is a collection of mods the Valve and Bethesda have selected. The mods of that pack remain available as their old versions, free via the workshop (or at least that is still the case for Wet & Cold). The choice is in the users hands, no one has to pay for them, and that will push them to either lower the prices, follow the "pay what you want" option which scales to free if the creator chooses it, or they can offer more meaningful content to justify the price.

I agree with some of the pricing being wrong and even pointless compared to the scale of the updates to them, hence why you shouldn't bother with them - but this is early days and everyone is experimenting with pricing. It will be months before it stabilises into something where users and creators agree, and I'm betting the "pay what you want" style of pricing that scales to free, will be the most predominant and only the few mods that have the biggest following / large scale / collaboration and provide regular support, updates and content AND are priced very reasonably, will see any success and agreement with users.

Pretty sure you know exactly which pack I'm talking about, but OK. In any case, you apparently missed the entire meaning of my post. I said I might be fine with the pricing if the money mostly went to the mod creators, but they're only getting a 25% cut, which makes it absurd to pay for mods through this service. Because you're not really paying the creators for the mods, you're paying Bethesda and Valve for creating the game and the distribution service.

 

[MUnited83]

So the profits arent given to modders until they hit 400.00.

Even then it can only go into their steam wallet.

So really, Valve gets all 100% of the money in the end because the only place you can use that money is on steam.

Is this how it works? If so, thats pretty scumbaggy.

? It doesn't go to the steam wallet at all. They are paid on their bank accounts.

I dont know about you but not all artists make things with the goal of getting paid. They make things because its their passion and their dream to do so.

As a musician, i dont make music to get paid. I do it because i love it and i enjoy it. If it makes me money, then cool. But i dont think id ever shit on my fans because they "take take take".

It's not about that. It's about people feeling entitled to all your work for free, no matter what your take is on it. You should have the option to have your content being sold if you want to do so. People who do it for the reason you said can still release mods for free if they want. But people don't have the right to say that you MUST give away your content for free.

 

[Ganzlinger]

no this is a hobby for someone like you only plays games. this is a career and decades worth of work and research and study for me.

releasing work is an important step in the growth of the developer. my work was released to the development community at large not to consumers.

If you see this as a career I understand your point.

that's prohibited in many tools' licenses

Hmm. Didn't know about that.

 

[RK9039]

It really is. The last four paragraphs are a great summation of the whole for the scanning kind.

That Sunday League analogy is on point.

And this:

My main concern now is the DRMification and closing down of free and open modding, the concept that modding can only take place if it's done through one official platform to the detriment of all others. Because up until now that's definitely not what modding has been about at all.

 

[Dinda]

Don't know if it was already posted, but SureAI, the makers of the Oblivion Mod Nehrim (which was actually a better game than Oblivion) who will soon be releasing the total conversion (a completely new game with the Skyrim Engine) Enderal stated that nothing will change and they will release the game for free. They would like donations of course, but only from those who like to pay, they won't sell it on the Steam store.

Enderal is pretty much the only really big total conversion where you can be sure that it will actually be released. And it will this year.
http://sureai.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=136&t=7057

 

[YuShtink]

no this is a hobby for someone like you only plays games. this is a career and decades worth of work and research and study for me.

I hope you make a profit dude. From what I know of you and your work, you are one of the few that would truly deserve the fruits of this. I wish you nothing but success. Personally I think Valve should have bought you guys up or something, because your mod is top notch. For serious, meaty conversions I think donations/profits are appropriate. That's not what I'm upset about. It's the charging for every little miniscule mod that will hurt what was a really good-natured, pure kind of scene.

 

[Bluth54]

i am fairly sure item contributions net more than that

Well you would be wrong then because it's been 25% since day 1.
You can read it here in an Interview with TF2 creator Robin Walker :

Can you tell us how you split the revenue?

Yep, we offer contributors 25% of the sales of their items.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

It's been 50-50 for the Valve stuff. I think he meant the in game items

I'm a contributor... it's 25%...

 

[Gurrry]

My mod is currently free.

So then were in agreement then. This isnt about making money, its about making something you love and sharing it with the world.

Getting paid on the side is cool. But being an artist is pretty much always going to be give give give.

I think the work modders do shouldnt go unrecognized. But i think the system implemented here is dangerous and can become super slimy.

 

[Qassim]

I dont know about you but not all artists make things with the goal of getting paid. They make things because its their passion and their dream to do so.

As a musician, i dont make music to get paid. I do it because i love it and i enjoy it. If it makes me money, then cool. But i dont think id ever shit on my fans because they "take take take".

Exactly! That's totally cool, people are still free to do that on Steam workshop (and outside). Those people, if their intentions are truly as you describe, will continue to release their work for free.

But who on earth has the right to tell someone that if they're going to create something, using their own time, utilising skills and experience they have spent time developing, that they must give it away for free, they have no right to charge for you work.

I hope you make a profit dude. From what I know of you and your work, you are one of the few that would truly deserve the fruits of this. I wish you nothing but success. Personally I think Valve should have bought you guys up or something, because your mod is top notch. For serious, meaty conversions I think donations/profits are appropriate. That's not what I'm upset about. It's the charging for every little miniscule mod that will hurt what was a really good-natured, pure kind of scene.

If they're not valuable then people won't buy them. Many people will quickly realise that people won't pay for something it isn't worth that money in any significant numbers, you see it in all markets. Just because people are trying to charge for something, it doesn't mean they'll be successful.

I'm sure during this initial period people will test the waters by seeing what the market will accept, if the market isn't happy with what they're charging for what content, or if they're charging at all, then it'll stabalise and even out. Mods that are deserving of a good revenue stream will get it, others won't, some mod developers will realise some people won't pay for their mods or they don't want to charge for it anyway and will release it for free.

 

[thelatestmodel]

Literally the worst thing Valve have ever done. This needs to be rescinded yesterday.

 

[Karak]

Don't know if it was already posted, but SureAI, the makers of the Oblivion Mod Nehrim (which was actually a better game than Oblivion) who will soon be releasing the total conversion (a completely new game with the Skyrim Engine) Enderal stated that nothing will change and they will release the game for free. They would like donations of course, but only from those who like to pay, they won't sell it on the Steam store.

Enderal is pretty much the only really big total conversion where you can be sure that it will actually be released. And it will this year.
http://sureai.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=136&t=7057

These guys are a simple cut above man. Bravo to that team

 

[justjim89]

You act like you were forced to go into this line of "business." It's a fucking hobbyist scene man. People love you for your work, give feedback, say thanks, and you also have a bevy of other free mods from other members of the community to use freely the same way others use yours. Why the hell should it suddenly be profit driven when it hasn't been for 30+ years? And why are gamers supposed to be happy about it?

Clearly just because mods have been free forever until today, doesn't mean you should have grown accustomed to getting them for free. You're not allowed to be troubled by the long-term implications such a venture for you as a consumer. It makes you a bad person! How dare you!

Modders are perfectly entitled to compensation for their work, undoubtedly. I have dozens of mods for Skyrim and they all make the game a much better experience. But I take severe issue with Bethesda and Valve profiting off of the mod scene under the guise of making it about supporting content creators. Time will tell how this plays out, but don't act like those of us with reservations about it are simply entitled children who want everything for free.

 

[The Llama]

But who on earth has the right to tell someone that if they're going to create something, using their own time, utilising skills and experience they have spent time developing, that they must give it away for free, they have no right to charge for you work.

I don't think anyone is saying this though.

 

[Gurrry]

? It doesn't go to the steam wallet at all. They are paid on their bank accounts.

Yeah my mistake. I misread a previous post.

Its much better that they can actually use the money outside of the steam infrastructure. If it was the steam wallet, Id understand why people are as angry as they are.

 

[Nzyme32]

Valve does a 25-75 with their own games, don't they? Or am I mistaken?

I could easily be mistaken. I recall a big argument on here ages ago, with people saying they should get more than 50%.

Edit - I'm wrong apparently. My mistake, no idea where I am getting 50% so vividly from

I... Can't help but hope the SKSE team gets properly credited and contributor-status for every single mod that relies on their mod.

Because then they'd make bank, and they certainly deserve to.

Yeah totally. I think that would only happen if those apps are also paid and use that paid version of the mod rather than the free one (which is still available on the workshop). Personally I would be more likely to buy a mod if the price was reasonable and they could demonstrate that it will be well supported and updated with content over time OR they just give the option to donate for extra features or something. What some of the guys are doing, just putting the same free version up as paid, is futile to me since the free ones are still around and likely always will.

 

[antisoulless]

This is very good. The financial incentives might encourage people to create awesome add ons perhaps....

Maybe...

Wish they'd re release Skyrim on ps4 and allow mods. Unreal tournament 3 on ps3 allowed it kind of. So it's not impossible. They could create an easy to navigate store and whatnot... Could be really good.

 

[Krejlooc]

I hope you make a profit dude. From what I know of you and your work, you are one of the few that would truly deserve the fruits of this. I wish you nothing but success. Personally I think Valve should have bought you guys up or something, because your mod is top notch. For serious, meaty conversions I think donations/profits are appropriate. That's not what I'm upset about. It's the charging for every little miniscule mod that will hurt what was a really good-natured, pure kind of scene.

there should not be an arbiter of what is or is not worthy of being sold on a market level. all you should be able to decide is whether or not something is worth paying for to you. do I think a sword is worth $25? not to me personally. But I sure as hell don't want someone coming around telling me that I can't charge $25 for my sword.working value as a proposition between consumer and provider.

 

[Crimson Kopite]

I hope you make a profit dude. From what I know of you and your work, you are one of the few that would truly deserve the fruits of this. I wish you nothing but success. Personally I think Valve should have bought you guys up or something, because your mod is top notch. For serious, meaty conversions I think donations/profits are appropriate. That's not what I'm upset about. It's the charging for every little miniscule mod that will hurt what was a really good-natured, pure kind of scene.

Could you please provide a list of mod makers that 'deserve' to make a profit and the ones that don't 'deserve' it?

 

[Gurrry]

there should not be an arbiter of what is or is not worthy of being sold on a market level. all you should be able to decide is whether or not something is worth paying for to you. do I think a sword is worth $25? not to me personally. But I sure as hell don't want someone coming around telling me that I can't charge $25 for my sword.working value as a proposition between consumer and provider.

To be fair, it was a really kick ass sword.

 

[thelatestmodel]

This is very good. The financial incentives might encourage people to create awesome add ons perhaps....

Maybe...

Wish they'd re release Skyrim on ps4 and allow mods. Unreal tournament 3 on ps3 allowed it kind of. So it's not impossible. They could create an easy to navigate store and whatnot... Could be really good.

Please explain how people stealing other's mods, uploading them as their own, and trying to profit off them is a good thing.

 

[Crimson Kopite]

But I take severe issue with Bethesda and Valve profiting off of the mod scene under the guise of making it about supporting content creators.

When Bethesda and Valve are profiting off the mod scene... you're supporting content creators.

 

[SteveWinwood]

there should not be an arbiter of what is or is not worthy of being sold on a market level. all you should be able to decide is whether or not something is worth paying for to you. do I think a sword is worth $25? not to me personally. But I sure as hell don't want someone coming around telling me that I can't charge $25 for my sword.working value as a proposition between consumer and provider.

i own 100 dollar dota hats

 

[Qassim]

I don't think anyone is saying this though.

People are arguing against Valve providing that option. They're arguing that creators should not be given the option to charge for their work.

That's exactly what they're saying.

 

[Juniez]

Well you would be wrong then because it's been 25% since day 1.
You can read it here in an Interview with TF2 creator Robin Walker :

They don't. They get 25%

shoot, that's not a lot

 

[The Llama]

People are arguing against Valve providing that option. They're arguing that creators should not be given the option to charge for their work.

That's exactly what they're saying.

I don't think anyone is saying "that they must give it away for free, they have no right to charge for you work," that all mods must be free forever. Maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but I really don't think that's the concern and the problem here.

 

[SteveWinwood]

I don't think anyone is saying "that they must give it away for free, they have no right to charge for you work," that all mods must be free forever. Maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but I really don't think that's the concern and the problem here.

there are people on this page saying that

that modding is a hobby and it should never be anything else

 

[Maniac]

Don't know if it was already posted, but SureAI, the makers of the Oblivion Mod Nehrim (which was actually a better game than Oblivion) who will soon be releasing the total conversion (a completely new game with the Skyrim Engine) Enderal stated that nothing will change and they will release the game for free. They would like donations of course, but only from those who like to pay, they won't sell it on the Steam store.

Enderal is pretty much the only really big total conversion where you can be sure that it will actually be released. And it will this year.
http://sureai.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=136&t=7057

Cool to hear, although I think all of this is all made somewhat more problematic by the fact that you can't simply have "pay what you want" with a slider that goes all the way to 0, or 0.1 or whatever. If that was the case, I doubt people would be making *as* big a deal as they are now, but right now, you have to add individual price-steps to PWYW, instead of being able to simply offer it for free (or a really low price) all the way up to an arbitrary amount, on the same mod-page.

Hopefully that'll change though.

 

[Qassim]

I don't think anyone is saying "that they must give it away for free, they have no right to charge for you work," that all mods must be free forever. Maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but I really don't think that's the concern and the problem here.

Are people not arguing against Valve providing the option for mod developers to charge for their work in this thread?

 

[FyreWulff]

People seem to be in denial that there is more than just the "Developer" and "Hobbyist" category. Gaming is big enough now that people want to make the jump from one to the other, and can be in the middle as an aftermarket supplier of sorts.

And since the industry is still wild west as shit, the best way to start out is just making content and selling it running under another game. This is how Certain Affinity got their start, all they did was sign an exclusive contract with Microsoft to make Halo maps to sell instead of using a standardized pipeline like this. Same result, different contract.

 

[EVIL]

Yikes, the item creators are getting hate mail now. This is pretty insane!

edit:got this image from a buddy who got this today (he made one of the paid mods)

 

[yuraya]

Why?

Valve made the store and all the infrastructure that goes along with it.

Bethesda paid for and made the entire world your mod interacts with, that makes your mod worth something instead of just a bunch of models and sounds, and spent millions and millions making the engine your mod runs on.

Mods are a derivative work of the the original game and derivative works splitting their revenue with the original work's creator is so standard in every other single industry that there are entire companies who solely deal with royalty payments (Harry Fox, etc).

They have assumed the majority of the risk of your development, so they get the majority of each sale. If you want a bigger cut, you take on more of the risk.

They charged people $60 for it when it launched. Than charged like additional $50 for dlc after the fact for several years. Sorry but single player games should never cost so much money. They ended support for the game. Its not multiplayer so they have no server/maintenance cost. At what point does it end? Should games cost more money than the gpu you buy for your pc? More than an entire console? At the rate the current industry is going...10 years from now games are gonna cost $500 and people gonna defend that shit with flying colors.

I'm completely okay in supporting programmers, artists and designers who work independently. But the majority of this money isn't going to them. Its going to a company who is enlarging its ego as its collecting money from you. And testing waters to see how much they can possibly milk from people from the get go when Fallout 4 and Elder 6 comes out. That is all what this is about. Its not about content makers at all. If it was they would give them higher split. This move is pure greed. Modders are unknowingly working for Bethesda and not for themselves. Its a scam.

 

[Crimson Kopite]

But who on earth has the right to tell someone that if they're going to create something, using their own time, utilising skills and experience they have spent time developing, that they must give it away for free, they have no right to charge for you work.

I do. I think monetization will undermine the beauty of the mod scene and Valve will take too much of a cut from Content Creators, which isn't fair to Content Creators because they should be well compensated except for Content Creators who create mods, then that should stay free (but be supported)

*loads up uTorrent to check latest game of thrones download*

 

[Mithos]

So many updates over at nexus going on.

So many "you may not use my stuff, if you are going to charge/monetize of it" combos being added to the descriptions.

 

[Dwalls]

This is the death of modding and the birth of third party created DLC.

 

[justjim89]

If they're not valuable then people won't buy them. Many people will quickly realise that people won't pay for something it isn't worth that money in any significant numbers, you see it in all markets. Just because people are trying to charge for something, it doesn't mean they'll be successful.

I'm sure during this initial period people will test the waters by seeing what the market will accept, if the market isn't happy with what they're charging for what content, or if they're charging at all, then it'll stabalise and even out. Mods that are deserving of a good revenue stream will get it, others won't, some mod developers will realise some people won't pay for their mods or they don't want to charge for it anyway and will release it for free.

What about the litany of customers that won't get their money back in their bank account when they buy a mod that either doesn't work with their set up or doesn't satisfy them for the asking price? Getting Steam Wallet money back as a refund is terrible.

 

[MUnited83]

I don't think anyone is saying this though.

Erm, doesn't take much to find people saying exactly that.

 

[thelatestmodel]

People are arguing against Valve providing that option. They're arguing that creators should not be given the option to charge for their work.

That's exactly what they're saying.

Right, but it opens a huge can of worms in the worst way possible.

What if the game updates and it breaks the mod? The author is obligated to make it work again or provide refunds! It's a mess!

 

[Bornstellar]

Something else to consider - previously a lot of mods gave full permission for users to modify/use assets/redistribute as they saw fit. If that mod is now paid, that kind of sharing simply won't happen any more.

 

[Qassim]

What about the litany of customers that won't get their money back in their bank account when they buy a mod that either doesn't work with their set up or doesn't satisfy them for the asking price? Getting Steam Wallet money back as a refund is terrible.

That's a problem with the infrastructure of steam, the same problems apply to games bought from steam. That's not a problem unique to paid mods.

 

[The Llama]

Are people not arguing against Valve providing the option for mod developers to charge for their work in this thread?

The way I see it, that's different from what you said.

 

[FyreWulff]

This is the death of modding and the birth of third party created DLC.

Yeah, absolutely nobody does free work on cars or gives away fab parts for free, people only buy spoilers and running lights for their honda civic only from garages that specialize in car modifications.

Absolutely no hobbyist car people exist anymore.

Yep.

 

[YuShtink]

Could you please provide a list of mod makers that 'deserve' to make a profit and the ones that don't 'deserve' it?

Charging for small items and stuff like that is bogus, I'm sorry. Just as bad as nickel and dime dlc from any major publisher. I sure as hell won't bite. Just get out of mods if that's your mentality (imo).

 

[MJLord]

Yikes, the item creators are getting hate mail now. This is pretty insane!

edit:got this image from a buddy who got this today (he made one of the paid mods)

Why do people bother with sending that shit. It's tragic.

 

[Qassim]

The way I see it, that's different from what you said.

Are you going to explain?

 

[Karak]

Holy crap at that cut. That does indeed seem to be 100% motivated by Valve wanting more cash and in no way assisting mod communities. Didn't know its been that low for all creators. I thought youtube partners were thieves.

 

[Nzyme32]

This is the death of modding and the birth of third party created DLC.

Will pick up on this thread this time next year to see how accurate you are. I'm feel certain free mods are not going anywhere, but of course there will be people who would like either the ability to choose a "pay what you want" method that scales to free, or would like to be paid for their time and effort. We'll see

 

[Branson]

there should not be an arbiter of what is or is not worthy of being sold on a market level. all you should be able to decide is whether or not something is worth paying for to you. do I think a sword is worth $25? not to me personally. But I sure as hell don't want someone coming around telling me that I can't charge $25 for my sword.working value as a proposition between consumer and provider.

I don't think a normal person would think that a damn sword is worth $25. Even if they made it lol. But for real I'm not against modders getting paid for their work.

Best case scenario:

Valve or Bethesda have a modding program that tells you if the mod that you paid for is compatible with every other one that you have. If you are paying for a mod, it damn better work with everything you want to throw at it. (yes I know LOOT). They have already found a way around this with the refund.

Modders put more effort than they already are into bug testing, QA, care, and devotion to a "product" they are releasing to make sure it is worth the time of the people that are actually paying for thier work. Making it stand above the rest with an affordable price and quality. A fight for the top so to speak.

Whats going to happen:

A sword thats $25 and is a reskin of a Vanilla sword that didnt have any effort put into it. Or a mod that adds one NPC for $5. GREAT STUFF.

Sorry but this whole thing might end poorly. If this is going to happen, I want mod quality to go through the roof. Falskaar is a good example of a mod that deserves compensation for their work. I want that level of quality.

 

[YuShtink]

Exactly!
If they're not valuable then people won't buy them. Many people will quickly realise that people won't pay for something it isn't worth that money in any significant numbers, you see it in all markets. Just because people are trying to charge for something, it doesn't mean they'll be successful.

I'm sure during this initial period people will test the waters by seeing what the market will accept, if the market isn't happy with what they're charging for what content, or if they're charging at all, then it'll stabalise and even out. Mods that are deserving of a good revenue stream will get it, others won't, some mod developers will realise some people won't pay for their mods or they don't want to charge for it anyway and will release it for free.

Not true. Just look at the mobile games scene...

 

[Maniac]

I could easily be mistaken. I recall a big argument on here ages ago, with people saying they should get more than 50%.

Edit - I'm wrong apparently. My mistake, no idea where I am getting 50% so vividly from



Yeah totally. I think that would only happen if those apps are also paid and use that paid version of the mod rather than the free one (which is still available on the workshop). Personally I would be more likely to buy a mod if the price was reasonable and they could demonstrate that it will be well supported and updated with content over time OR they just give the option to donate for extra features or something. What some of the guys are doing, just putting the same free version up as paid, is futile to me since the free ones are still around and likely always will.

Sadly there's already several mods that I've used that're now only available as paid mods. The old version was removed from the Workshop aswell as Skyrim Nexus. :/

If someone does that, they're... Kind of cheeky cunts, in my opinion.

i own 100 dollar dota hats

Atleast you get to show those off and sell them at a later date, unlike these Skyrim hats and (rather overpowered) weapons that you pay for whilst you don't get any tangible valuable that you yourself could trade or sell later.

So again, I think it's... Very different from the paid UGC seen in Valve games up to this point.