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[Theanine3D]

As someone who has published quite a few Steam Workshop addons in the past but received not a single cent from any of them, and then had to watch as server owners who hosted my work in Gmod/TF2 raked in hundreds of dollars in donation money.... This is a welcome change.

It's about time that this happened. There will be inevitable whining and complaining in the beginning, because of the unfortunately common idea that artists should work for free (which is complete, utter, bullshit). People have just never truly valued the effort that goes into mods, and that's going to have to change now. It will be gradual and painful, but it needs to happen.

Yes there are crap mods out there that don't deserve a cent. But there are also great mods, and mods that could be greater if the authors had to spend less time worrying about paying their bills and more time pouring love into their work.

edit: hadn't seen the 75% royalty. That's insanely high and needs to lower, not really fair that Valve is getting the bulk of the money for content creators' work.

 

[Zel3]

Valve has been having users create content for their games for years now.

Hey if I can get free mod drops from playing skyrim I'm all for it lol

 

[MrHoot]

I don't like for two reasons:

First, and the obvious: that HORRIBLE cut given to the content creators. It's just laughable. Not even apple, who takes a substantial cut, is that bad on their store. Also apparently (?) CCs don't get their part until they've reached 100$ sold ? That is just shameful.

Second, i just really REALLY just dislike the model at play here. I don't think it will encourage modders. Modding was always some sort of grassroots thing. Most of it, it was small little things that took a modder an afternoon (new weapon, reskin of an armor, some stuff like that). And it encouraged a genuien creative force just for the heck of it. To bring a little bit more to the game, to participate in a showcase of your talent and whatnot.

Now it's a business. Like every fucking thing in the industry these days it seems. People won't make mod for fun of being creative or bringing something new. It's gonna become the job. And it will directly influence the community behind the game too, and behind the modding scene. I see this doing more harm than good to the diversity of modding. It also sets a dangerous precedent for business practices. "Hey, people are willing to pay for mods. Why not make it MANDATORY"

Just have a tip jar option for crying out loud. There's alraedy that on some modders's website when they do huge projects. And cut your fucking percentage cut, SHAME on that.

 

[BennyBlanco]

So, you can get a refund for a mod within 24 hrs. Fair enough.

But what if mod problems aren’t recognizable right away? For example, I had the multiple follower mod installed in New Vegas like 80 hours and several months ago. Last month I discovered that it breaks the games ability to detect if you have any companions before starting the Honest Hearts DLC. So Boone, Veronica, and ED-E were present, but didn’t do anything.

Now, this was minor inconvenience, easily fixed by going back to my save right before the DLC and dismissing everyone manually. But it illustrates my point. What if a mod breaks something a week, two weeks a month from when you bought it? And its not as easily fixed/worked around like my example? Just hope for an update? Or are you just out the 4.99, buyer beware, should have read the reviews first herp, derp?

Guessing those refunds are for steam wallet only, unless you're in europe.

 

[Juniez]

maybe desura should have the same option except with less of a aw shoot. desura was stomped out by steam

 

[tuxfool]

I don't like for two reasons:

First, and the obvious: that HORRIBLE cut given to the content creators. It's just laughable. Not even apple, who takes a substantial cut, is that bad on their store. Also apparently (?) CCs don't get their part until they've reached 100$ sold ? That is just shameful.

Not 100$ sold. 100$ in their account. And in this particular case since it is 25-75 split. They need to sell 400$ before they see that 100$ cut.

 

[MUnited83]

I don't like for two reasons:

First, and the obvious: that HORRIBLE cut given to the content creators. It's just laughable. Not even apple, who takes a substantial cut, is that bad on their store. Also apparently (?) CCs don't get their part until they've reached 100$ sold ? That is just shameful.

Second, i just really REALLY just dislike the model at play here. I don't think it will encourage modders. Modding was always some sort of grassroots thing. Most of it, it was small little things that took a modder an afternoon (new weapon, reskin of an armor, some stuff like that). And it encouraged a genuien creative force just for the heck of it. To bring a little bit more to the game, to participate in a showcase of your talent and whatnot.

Now it's a business. Like every fucking thing in the industry these days it seems. People won't make mod for fun of being creative or bringing something new. It's gonna become the job. And it will directly influence the community behind the game too, and behind the modding scene. I see this doing more harm than good to the diversity of modding. It also sets a dangerous precedent for business practices. "Hey, people are willing to pay for mods. Why not make it MANDATORY"

Just have a tip jar option for crying out loud. There's alraedy that on some modders's website when they do huge projects. And cut your fucking percentage cut, SHAME on that.

I still have to see a single compelling argument as to free mods not existing anymore.

 

[JC Lately]

You get refunded in steam credit.

Is this the same for games? I've never tried a refund from steam.

This doesn’t bother me so much. If I spent $4.99 on Steam, its was because I had $4.99 to spend on Steam. If the initial purchase didn’t pan out, I’m happy to roll it in to another purchase; that money was already spent anyway.

 

[BennyBlanco]

maybe desura should have the same option except with less of a aw shoot. desura was stomped out by steam

desure is still around, it's just.... not very good.

GOG isn't going anywhere and aren't they launching a steam like program themselves?

 

[Falcs]

I don't like where this is going.
Just a matter of time before we see the workshop filled with shitty mods that add nothing just because modders want some cash.
And they'll add in DLC for mods.. micro transactions... season pass for mods...

 

[mugwhump]

I'd be more on board with this if the modder's cut wasn't a measly 25%. That's total shit.

 

[VandalD]

This whole situation is very interesting. Can't see myself ever paying for a mod on Steam though. I can understand modders wanting a bit of compensation for their work, but the lack of QA and the 25% margin makes it look like a crap deal for everyone but Valve. But maybe it's better than having a donate button and hoping people are generous. I wonder how this will go.

 

[Bornstellar]

I don't like where this is going.
Just a matter of time before we see the workshop filled with shitty mods that add nothing just because modders want some cash.
And they'll add in DLC for mods.. micro transactions... season pass for mods...

They're already selling a $30 bundle.

 

[Juniez]

desure is still around, it's just.... not very good.

GOG isn't going anywhere and aren't they launching a steam like program themselves?

there's probably no way they'll be able to work out similiar licensing agreements with these big guys

 

[Maniac]

I think

that I really am not liking these licensing terms and they would have to be very much improved in order for me to consider it and if I do end up putting it on the workshop to be paid content, i'm not going to go out of my way to support a free version: if you really feel that you deserve that content for free, I have no power to stop you from pirating it, it'd be really easy for what is essentially loose assets. a flashier donation page doesn't convince me at all because:

Juniez: how much have you gotten as of now [after requesting paypal donations]
[the animator]: well
[the animator]: nothing after that 62 bucks

that's pretty lol

e: BUT YOU KNOW ME. I HATE VALVE AND EVERYTHING VALVE

On Facepunch we all hate Valve.

Over here though, we gobble up everything that drips from their bum. Except for in the dedicated Steam thread... Which is possibly odd as hell.

I digress, wish you all the best. Hope some donations pop up whenever BM is out and some of your stuff is released.

 

[Cronox]

Modders' cuts of the sale should be 50%, given that Bethesda does no work at all for this and Steam just hosts the files. More than 25% anyway, that's just silly.

 

[Zolo]

This whole situation is very interesting. Can't see myself ever paying for a mod on Steam though. I can understand modders wanting a bit of compensation for their work, but the lack of QA and the 25% margin makes it look like a crap deal for everyone but Valve. But maybe it's better than having a donate button and hoping people are generous. I wonder how this will go.

Bethesda also takes part of the money in that 75% right? In that case, I'm not surprised by the cut.

 

[tuxfool]

This doesn’t bother me so much. If I spent $4.99 on Steam, its was because I had $4.99 to spend on Steam. If the initial purchase didn’t pan out, I’m happy to roll it in to another purchase; that money was already spent anyway.

That isn't the case for everyone, however.

Also, I think it is the case that you can't discount from the steam wallet in conjunction with other items. So you'd need to spend that 4.99 on something else of that value or less, or top up the wallet with fixed amounts etc.

Honestly, I don't think it is a refund if you don't get fungible currency that you put in.

 

[draetenth]

desure is still around, it's just.... not very good.

GOG isn't going anywhere and aren't they launching a steam like program themselves?

Yes, GOG Galaxy (or something like that).

 

[Future PhaZe]

new era

paid mods incoming damn

 

[Branson]

Gophers thoughts on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt2wSvb6rhw

 

[Drazgul]

This is the worst thing that could have happened to Skyrim modding, the worst. Fuck.

This will ruin FO4 modding from the get go.

 

[Falcs]

They're already selling a $30 bundle.

 

[MUnited83]

That isn't the case for everyone, however.

Also, I think it is the case that you can't discount from the steam wallet in conjunction with other items. So you'd need to spend that 4.99 on something else of that value or less, or top up the wallet with fixed amounts etc.

Honestly, I don't think it is a refund if you don't get fungible currency that you put in.

At least in Europe you can use your Steam Wallet and other method of payment to cover what isn't totally covered by the Wallet.

 

[Gaz_RB]

What a joke. PC gaming is being slowly whittled down to a shadow of its former self.

 

[Nzyme32]

This whole situation is very interesting. Can't see myself ever paying for a mod on Steam though. I can understand modders wanting a bit of compensation for their work, but the lack of QA and the 25% margin makes it look like a crap deal for everyone but Valve. But maybe it's better than having a donate button and hoping people are generous. I wonder how this will go.

This is the big problem. Determining how trust worth and well supported a mod will be. It's like early access levels of scepticism. I know there will be good stuff, but there a lot of effort / word of mouth needed to determine that, which thus means I will be waiting for many months to decide what is worth paying for.

I am more than happy to pay modders, if I can be sure what I am getting is worth it, well supported and developed over time

 

[Fantastical]

This is the worst thing that could have happened to Skyrim modding, the worst. Fuck.

This will ruin FO4 modding from the get go.

Ah, fuck. Didn't even think about that.

 

[tuxfool]

At least in Europe you can use your Steam Wallet and other method of payment to cover what isn't totally covered by the Wallet.

Ah, that's interesting. The appearance of the scroll box in the payment method doesn't make that clear.

 

[MasterOfPastures]

My opinion is that a donate button should be enough. I would say that I would never believe that someone would donate money for anything user created, but people donate to fucking streamers or Let's Plays, so.... yeah.
But this? Nah.

 

[The Crimson Beast]

I'd be more on board with this if the modder's cut wasn't a measly 25%. That's total shit.

wow its only 25%? I'll avoid it and donate directly if I can. To be honest though, If I was a content creator I'd take that 25%. Like somebody mentioned earlier he was making nothing off his content.

 

[MomoPufflet]

BLOG PIECE: Modding as a hobby versus modding as a career, and the position of the Nexus

That should be read. Its very well thought out.

Really good read and a pretty classy take on the situation as a whole.

 

[TouchMyBox]

What a joke. PC gaming is being slowly whittled down to a shadow of its former self.

Remember when Steam came around and made it possible for people making fun flash games to step up their game and get paid for their work? It sucks that we live in a world where there are no longer and small fun free games on the internet anymore.

People are acting like this is some mandatory shit, when it's just adding an option which has existed previously, just in a clunky form.

 

[WhiskeyDiver]

Paid items under review: Lol at horse genitals mod for $99.99. Well done to whoever submitted that one. It's obviously fake, but the price and the name of the mod had me laughing.

I'm honestly not fond of paying for mods made by the player base, but there are some shining jewels out there I would consider buying if they were to charge money for them. Hell. I'm a cheapo when it comes to buying official dlc for games. I still have base Skyrim after all these years. I usually wait for the complete editions to drop to $10 or less.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Remember when Steam came around and made it possible for people making fun flash games to step up their game and get paid for their work? It sucks that we live in a world where there are no longer and small fun free games on the internet anymore.

People are acting like this is some mandatory shit, when it's just adding an option which has existed previously, just in a clunky form.

i had to buy super hot to play it not that long ago

sucks free stuff doesn't come out

 

[A More Normal Bird]

yes
if they somehow make it through the review section with stolen content and then get caught you don't get your money and Valve has all your bank and personal information to hold you responsible

this has already occurred in the dota scene

it was resolved

Sorry, but no, "this" has not already happened in the DOTA scene. As someone who has released a few mods myself and enjoys creating content as a hobby I'm not opposed to financial reward for modders, but this is a very different game to the comparatively simple field of Dota/TF2 content creation, where mod types are limited and the Workshop maintains a (near?) monopoly on mod distribution.

Valve already has contact and financial details of everyone who has a Steam account, but it has not prevented the issues I mentioned in my earlier post. The direct link to personal finances may dissuade some but the problem will not be eliminated without a significant increase in monitoring resources.

There are many more factors to consider too. There is considerable "cross-pollination" in TES/Fallout mods. At what point does the author (or publisher) no longer get to claim a work as derivative? What about compatibility patches? There are high profile instances of mods that "patch" another mod being taken down by moderators due to false/sketchy claims of plagiarism: what happens when there are financial consequences? Are Valve/Bethesda going to employ people to actually analyse the files in disputed mods or are they going to use the same knee-jerk "he said she said" system they do currently? What about mods based on resource packs, utilities or frameworks? What if those frameworks/utilities are unable to be distributed on Steam due to file-system limitations (SKSE, ENB etc...)? What if a mod not available on Steam, which legally remains the property of Bethesda/Zenimax, is stolen and distributed on Steam for profit?

Laygecko's post in the Skyrim modding thread also contains some important points:

Here are some further potential issues that worry me:

The curation, or lack thereof, on the workshop. The level of moderation I've seen on the workshop in the past has already been pretty sloppy and lax compared to Nexus IMO (and even they aren't that great from my own experience. Reported mods that stole my own assets and provided proof but nothing was done about it). I see the potential for a lot of shady shit going on here, with mods being sold that use unauthorized assets whether they are stolen from other mod authors, or Creative Commons noncommercial assets (I've used plenty of these in my own mods which disqualifies them from being sold. I sincerely doubt most others have that amount of foresight though), or just flat out ripped from other games etc... How are they going to effectively police that stuff?

Secondly I foresee a lot of drama and temper tantrums with regards to stability/crashes/problems and the ability to refund your mod purchase. Skyrim's stability even without any mods is just barely hanging in there, and even a moderately modded install is going to tip that balance. It's well known that people have a tendency to jump to conclusions and believe that some specific mod is breaking their install, when it in reality is an insanely complex issue with a ton of different related or unrelated factors that are causing the issue. I think this stuff is going to be greatly exasperated with the introduction of paid mods.

In relation to this I honestly think Bethesda has more of a responsibility now to keep supporting Skyrim and update the game (and the editor) with bug and stability fixes.

It's worth adding to the second point of that post that the Steam Workshop is largely incompatible with/makes it more difficult to use the utilities required to make the modded game stable/eliminate conflicts.

I'll just reiterate my earlier point: this is a much more complicated (and convoluted) situation than that of Dota2/TF2/CS:GO. If this system were being launched with a new title and there was evidence of a significant increase in resources devoted to moderating the Workshop then some (not all) of these concerns would be lessened, but as it is there is a lot to be cautious about.

 

[MUnited83]

Ah, that's interesting. The appearance of the scroll box in the payment method doesn't make that clear.

Yeah, you need to try to pay with wallet first, it will say that you don't have enough and that you can pay whatever's left with other payment method.

 

[Generalpsyduck]

Why not just do a donate option?

yup this

 

[VandalD]

Bethesda also takes part of the money in that 75% right? In that case, I'm not surprised by the cut.

I didn't see that, but it's totally possible I missed it somewhere in this whole mess. I suppose I shouldn't pretend to know what's "fair" in this case, but getting 25% out of something you created that enriches the base game sounds like a raw deal to me.

This is the big problem. Determining how trust worth and well supported a mod will be. It's like early access levels of scepticism. I know there will be good stuff, but there a lot of effort / word of mouth needed to determine that, which thus means I will be waiting for many months to decide what is worth paying for.

I am more than happy to pay modders, if I can be sure what I am getting is worth it, well supported and developed over time

No doubt, mod coverage and reviews will be necessary before people are going to want to pay for them (or at least I'd like to think so.) There are very few games I buy day one at full price, and I for damn sure am not going to buy an unknown mod just to try it out, even if there were a more generous refund policy. Too much hassle, especially for a game like Skyrim where mod compatibility itself is a giant mess.

 

[mugwhump]

Paid items under review: Lol at horse genitals mod for $99.99. Well done to whoever submitted that one. It's obviously fake, but the price and the name of the mod had me laughing.

I'm honestly not fond of paying for mods made by the player base, but there are some shining jewels out there I would consider buying if they were to charge money for them. Hell. I'm a cheapo when it comes to buying official dlc for games. I still have base Skyrim after all these years. I usually wait for the complete editions to drop to $10 or less.

Is valve actually gonna allow porn mods?

 

[JC Lately]

Ah, fuck. Didn't even think about that.

Really? That's like the first thing I thought off. Skyrim has had its day in the sun, and aside from SKSE updates and maybe some choice Lovers Lab mods when I’m feeling silly, I’m satisfied with my mod load out in that game.

Its when I have to pay five bucks for whatever the MTUI equivalent will be in Fallout 4 that I will lose my shit.

 

[Netherscourge]

Paid items under review: Lol at horse genitals mod for $99.99. Well done to whoever submitted that one. It's obviously fake, but the price and the name of the mod had me laughing.

I'm honestly not fond of paying for mods made by the player base, but there are some shining jewels out there I would consider buying if they were to charge money for them. Hell. I'm a cheapo when it comes to buying official dlc for games. I still have base Skyrim after all these years. I usually wait for the complete editions to drop to $10 or less.

I like the "Rubbish" mod that's up for paid review:

$2.49

Category: Joke
File Size:
Posted:
0.001 MB
Apr 23 @ 12:56pm
1 change note ( view )

This mod adds rubbish to skyrim.

Features:
Three exciting pieces of rubbish are added to The Bannered Bare floor as you enter!
These items inculde:
- blood rag
- soul gem shard
- plate

*This is the first mod I have made and took me 30 mins to learn creation kit, add items and upload to steam, please don't acctually subscribe to this.

 

[justjim89]

Really? That's like the first thing I thought off. Skyrim has had its day in the sun, and aside from SKSE updates and maybe some choice Lovers Lab mods when I’m feeling silly, I’m satisfied with my mod load out in that game.

Its when I have to my five bucks for whatever the MTUI equivalent will be in Fallout 4 that I will lose my shit.

Yep, I can already see it at E3 in Bethesda's conference.

DAY 1 PREMIUM MOD SUPPORT!

BEST OF THE MOD SCENE SEASON PASS!

 

[SteveWinwood]

Sorry, but no, "this" has not already happened in the DOTA scene. As someone who has released a few mods myself and enjoys creating content as a hobby I'm not opposed to financial reward for modders, but this is a very different game to the comparatively simple field of Dota/TF2 content creation, where mod types are limited and the Workshop maintains a (near?) monopoly on mod distribution.

Valve already has contact and financial details of everyone who has a Steam account, but it has not prevented the issues I mentioned in my earlier post. The direct link to personal finances may dissuade some but the problem will not be eliminated without a significant increase in monitoring resources.

There are many more factors to consider too. There is considerable "cross-pollination" in TES/Fallout mods. At what point does the author (or publisher) no longer get to claim a work as derivative? What about compatibility patches? There are high profile instances of mods that "patch" another mod being taken down by moderators due to false/sketchy claims of plagiarism: what happens when there are financial consequences? Are Valve/Bethesda going to employ people to actually analyse the files in disputed mods or are they going to use the same knee-jerk "he said she said" system they do currently? What about mods based on resource packs, utilities or frameworks? What if those frameworks/utilities are unable to be distributed on Steam due to file-system limitations (SKSE, ENB etc...)? What if a mod not available on Steam, which legally remains the property of Bethesda/Zenimax, is stolen and distributed on Steam for profit?

Laygecko's post in the Skyrim modding thread also contains some important points:

It's worth adding to the second point of that post that the Steam Workshop is largely incompatible with/makes it more difficult to use the utilities required to make the modded game stable/eliminate conflicts.

I'll just reiterate my earlier point: this is a much more complicated (and convoluted) situation than that of Dota2/TF2/CS:GO. If this system were being launched with a new title and there was evidence of a significant increase in resources devoted to moderating the Workshop then some (not all) of these concerns would be lessened, but as it is there is a lot to be cautious about.

they have dealt with copyright and plagiarism issues with amounts of money involved in the past yes

this is just a larger scale

there will be growing pains and for a lot of that the only answer is "we'll see!"

but too many people are claiming the bloody sky is falling

 

[Deleted member 17706]

new era

paid mods incoming damn

The best part is that "early access" is built right into the model!

 

[Abinash117]

They're already selling a $30 bundle.

Yup
http://steamcommunity.com//sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=428651577

 

[tuxfool]

I didn't see that, but it's totally possible I missed it somewhere in this whole mess. I suppose I shouldn't pretend to know what's "fair" in this case, but getting 25% out of something you created that enriches the base game sounds like a raw deal to me.

Quite so. Mods are a value-add, they should be a reason for more people to buy the base game. Alternatively, Bethesda should be reinvesting money to the upkeep of the game/mods.

 

[TouchMyBox]

I just want to close with this:

When Unreal Tournament 4 was announced along with the modding marketplace where players can create and sell mods, where Epic takes a significant cut of the sales, the reception among all of you was "Aww yeah! UT is back, baby! Glory days of PC Gaming!"

When Valve announces that they are implementing the exact same system into steam, the reception is "WTF PC GAMING IS DEAD FUCK VALVE"

The only difference being that Epic launched their platform with a free game, whereas Valve launched their platform with a paid game (which everyone who is interested already paid for long ago). Is this the sole reason for the outrage? If they launched it with a free game would everyone be sipping Pina Coladas right now? Or would the reaction be the same because people get all angry at every valve announcement to some degree for some reason?

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I don't understand how anyone at all could support this unless you gain to make money. Its ridiculous. I know that if this continues I won't buy anymore games on Steam.

Its already happening where people who already have these mods downloaded before they are put behind a paywall are putting them up on Nexus and posting the links all over the comments of the paid Workshop versions. I applaud them.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Modders' cuts of the sale should be 50%, given that Bethesda does no work at all for this and Steam just hosts the files. More than 25% anyway, that's just silly.

Except that they spent millions making the game and also decided to make it easily moddable.

If you want to make money selling content for someone else's game, you're going to have to do it on their terms.

I just want to close with this:

When Unreal Tournament 4 was announced along with the modding marketplace where players can create and sell mods, where Epic takes a significant cut of the sales, the reception among all of you was "Aww yeah! UT is back, baby! Glory days of PC Gaming!"

When Valve announces that they are implementing the exact same system into steam, the reception is "WTF PC GAMING IS DEAD FUCK VALVE"

The only difference being that Epic launched their platform with a free game, whereas Valve launched their platform with a paid game (which everyone who is interested already paid for long ago). Is this the sole reason for the outrage? If they launched it with a free game would everyone be sipping Pina Coladas right now? Or would the reaction be the same because people get all angry at every valve announcement to some degree for some reason?

The other difference is that modding has already been alive and strong with Skyrim for many years and we're already seeing people (a person?) take down free versions of their mods that were free up until yesterday and replacing them with paid versions.

No one really gives a shit about Unreal Tournament 4 yet, because it's still in a pre-alpha state. It's being built with this paid modding support in mind, so that's part of the initial offer. People who aren't interested can just ignore it. It's not like this, where a long existing arrangement is suddenly changing.

 

[BennyBlanco]

I just want to close with this:

When Unreal Tournament 4 was announced along with the modding marketplace where players can create and sell mods, where Epic takes a significant cut of the sales, the reception among all of you was "Aww yeah! UT is back, baby! Glory days of PC Gaming!"

When Valve announces that they are implementing the exact same system into steam, the reception is "WTF PC GAMING IS DEAD FUCK VALVE"

The only difference being that Epic launched their platform with a free game, whereas Valve launched their platform with a paid game (which everyone who is interested already paid for long ago). Is this the sole reason for the outrage? If they launched it with a free game would everyone be sipping Pina Coladas right now? Or would the reaction be the same because people get all angry at every valve announcement to some degree for some reason?

It's a false equivalence. UT4 is one game, this has the potential to be used for any game on steam going forward. It's obviously going in any bethesda games.