MatrixMan.EXE
Member
Er, what is happening? Amazon just sent me an email saying I should now expect the game to be in my hands on May 6th. For what it's worth, I live in the UK. I thought this was still a June release.
Operation Abyss: New Tokyo Legacy (Vita) launches on June 9 (USA), June 5 (EU)
- Thread starter Zhao_Yun
- Start date
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
Thats odd considering that the EU NISA site still says June 5th, 2015.
http://store.nisaeurope.com/products/operation-abyss-new-tokyo-legacy-limited-edition
You might want to email them and ask for confirmation on that?
YianGaruga
Banned
Seems like a mixup with the date format (6/5 <-> 5/6). Most other places still list June 5th.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
Yeah which is what I mean by having him reconfirm with amazon. To let them know that potentially their system is incorrect. Simple email to the customer support should get things squared away.
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
Nah, I'm not over dungeon crawlers. Just weary of games that use outmoded conventions because That's How It's Done. Can you imagine if most console shooters still played like the PS1 port of Dark Force or Doom on SNES out of tradition, even though Perfect Dark and Halo existed? Or if post Super Mario Bros. 3, most platformers still played like pre-SMB1 platformers with simple physics and tiny levels full of obtuse secrets? No thanks...
Also, I don't mind all the design elements I mentioned. Leveling up on rest and spell tiers are legitimate design choices. I was just pointing them out to say, "This game is hardcore about being old." Some old things still work, some don't, and I'd like this game a lot more if the designers had taken a little more time to winnow out the latter. But if you're into it, you'll enjoy it. It's a hell of a lot less slow to start up than Class of Heroes or Elminage.
vagabondarts
Member
I totally understand. I can't stand that mentality with businesses and organizations in the real world, I guess I'm a bit more lenient when it comes to game design.
I love Class of Heroes and Elminage, too. Yeah, they are slow to start.
How does it compare to Demon Gaze by the same developer? That was a pretty streamlined setup for a dungeon crawler. (I had a blast with it which is the main reason I'm so interested in this game)
Seems pretty telling to me that your example is famously poor ports of great games, games which are frequently far more fun and more interesting than their descendants.
vagabondarts
Member
He's comparing FPS from an era with shoulder buttons and dpad with the revelatory analog free view that came afterwards.
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
Come on. Let's not do the Internet thing and nitpick particulars in order to ignore the bigger discussion here. I named well-known titles for convenience. Go ahead replace Doom and Dark Forces with Code Name: Tenka and Turok, then. Would you really rather play Turok over, say, a Half-Life sequel?
The point I was trying to make was: Old design ideas are not inherently superior. Neither are they inherently inferior. There's good to be had by looking backward to classics and adopting ideas, but there needs to be some adapting to go along with it. Games like Operation Abyss are best served when their designers take the elements they're building off of on a case-by-case basis in the service of making a better game experience overall. You can change details and still remain faithful to your inspiration. You can create a challenging game without leaning on obtuse conventions that waste players' time. Axiom Verge is a great example of a game that feels incredibly true to the games the inspired it, but also feels refreshingly inventive and minimizes time-wasting nonsense without holding your hand.
It's fine that Operation Abyss exists, and clearly based on comments here people are clamoring for it! But I've seen a LOT of games EXACTLY like this from the Starfish/Experience/5pb group in recent years and wish they'd change up more than just the art style every once in a while. In any case, I said I'm going to keep playing and give it a fair shake, but the preview was meant to let potential players know what they're in for, whether those things appeal to them or not.
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
I haven't had the chance to play Demon's Gaze, but playing Operation Abyss definitely makes me curious to try it out.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
While the basic mechanics of are the same it actually has things like MP which you had issues with the more traditional Wizardry numerical values per spell tier system.
Though you will not start out with a full party and will just be 2 + 1 demon summon until you can scrape together cash to rent out another room in the inn you are living at which gives you another party character. Each room costs more $$$ too till you have the full 5 member party.
Instead of getting equipment from the random chests that are dropped by enemies, there are specific locations where you need to use gems (separated by various categories) to get monsters to appear in the circle which you fight and after defeating them they drop equipment type related to said gem set. Also the purpose of clearing all of these summoning circles is to get the boss demon to appear which is the goal for clearing each of the dungeons you adventure in.
That one has more updated gameplay features as it was made from the ground up, where as Op Abyss is just a remake of the original PC title where the system has not changed at all, which was done on purpose.
The stuff with Demon Gaze's summoning circles comes from the trap system that they had used in the Students of Round game that was like their first major title, which was released on the PC -> X360 -> PSP. Though more simplified and less of a pain in the ass.
Stranger of Sword City uses a fairly simple but similar system with a slight twist.
Curry-Hakase
Member
I'm debating on getting this game for a friend that likes EO.
Do you guys recommend it?
Do you guys recommend it?
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
The major difference will be that character advancement is all broken up by segmented level reqs rather than EO where it is the player puts in skill points into what they learn.
Though if your friend just likes dungeon crawlers in general, they might find it enjoyable.
vagabondarts
Member
I know Experience is working on an ip with Bandai where they mix things up and modernize a lot. I don't remember the name but there are three party members each at wildly different distances from the enemy. Parakeetman would know the name.
Anyway, my radar is on anything Experience is making.
Part of the (Experience, Starfish, Acquire) adherence to outdated mechanics might be due to their bread and butter in Japan being that hardcore wizardry player.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
Yeah thats Bandai Namco + Experience = Ray Gigant
vagabondarts
Member
I do hope this turns out fun. Though if Demon Gaze was made AFTER this maybe I might be better off holding my expectations in check. I really want that Stranger in the Sword City game though. May end up picking it up no matter what just to hope that comes out here! and Ray Gigant.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
Marketing Id imagine.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
Well Operation Abyss is based off of literally the very first series that Experience has made, just that they updated some story bits, monster and character art. Then Operation Babel is the other half of the series.
You have an over/under on Stranger in Sword City coming here? Think its likely?
YianGaruga
Banned
I just recently started Demon Gaze and I'm horribly addicted to it. Hearing that Operation Abyss is a bit more "hardcore" and doesn't include some of the conveniences of DG is a bit disappointing but I'm still really looking forward to the release.
the vita is basically dead. getting an exclusive in 2015 is pretty good. getting an exclusive in 2016 is like finding an endangered animal. still not like spotting the unicorn that is a wii exclusive or psp exclusive in 2015 though.
autoduelist
Member
Oh c'mon. We're clearly knee deep in a localization renaissance. The chances have never been better, because despite some claiming it's 'dead', software sales tell a different story.
At least NISA doesn't have any other platform to focus on right now. There aren't enough PS4 games, the PS3 fanbase has mostly moved on and other platforms aren't that viable besides the 3DS, although NISA doesn't have a lot of options there either.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
With how much attention the title has gotten and more overall interest I would like to imagine that most def NISA already has it secured. But would be the title after Operation Abyss. Although for a launch window not sure on what they would do considering that Op Abyss is delayed till June. Could not imagine them releasing another DRPG in less than half a years time and doing it out in 2016 would be a bit of a waste too. Kinda threw off the initial prediction about how if it was still on the April track then they would have released the game around the holidays possibly to keep everything within 2015.
That is pretty nice for those who do not want the CE, but yet wanted something a little extra. Hopefully will move more sales for the title.
Honestly dont listen to that preview.
vagabondarts
Member
That's awesome! I preordered the collectors edition because I need that art book.
I dig the artists they have for these games.
YianGaruga
Banned
I bought Demon Gaze a long time ago but your championing of it was a big reason for moving it up in my backlog so thanks for that
I shouldn't have read that preview anyway since I plan on going in mostly blind. Pre-order is locked in and I'll see for myself.
I wonder if EU will get a similar launch edition but I'm not betting on it.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
Here is another Operation Abyss preview.
lazyproblems
Member
This is good to see. Between this and the 5 hour demos they sent out, it looks like NISA is finally giving this game more of a push. Hopefully this ends up selling well for them.
3ds, ps4, and steam are going to be far better options in 2016 onward. vita might get a game or two, but the focus is going to shift pretty hard.
the vita will probably do worse in 2015 than it did in 2014 in america. and in america, it sold 300,000 units of hardware last year. the kinds of vita games that are being localized now will probably wind up on ps4, mobile, and 3ds/nx. it's better to slowly phase out one kind of hardware and start supporting a new one. if you look at what they did in 2014 versus what they have in 2015, it seems to be the case. 2016 feels like it's really unlikely to have a lot of exclusive vita games in the west.
Kresnik258
Member
Really? I could see it basically being flat YoY in the USA this year. It's had a much better Q1:
- Jan 2015 = Vita TV ~ 6.6k + PSV 39% of 3DS vs. Jan 2014 < 20k
- Feb 2015 = Vita TV > 30k + PSV < 30k vs. Feb 2014 ~ 24k
- March 2015 = no numbers, vs. March 2014 ~ 10k (shouldn't be hard to beat)
Not much happened in the rest of the year iirc. We got Vita2000 in May which helped and then Black Friday & Christmas in November/December, but two of those things are going to happen this year too
I'm not saying the numbers are so substantially better that NISA'd be stupid not to be making Vita exclusives, of course, but just that the console isn't in any worse a position this year than it was last year. And if they're viable this year and the kinds of games that get picked up by NISA/XSEED/Aksys are still being made for Japan, then they would be viable into 2016 too.
The pessimist in me agrees with you. If it were my localization company, if I were working on Vita games I'd be making sure they had a PS4 counterpart (such as Ys 8; Estival Versus) in anticipation of a fall in 2016. But I think we'll be hard pressed not to see any localized exclusives in that year, and if we do, I don't think it'll be because 2015 will be so far down on 2014 because it won't be
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
Hey, so, eventually I was able to bring up a dungeon map with square button... not sure how that happened, since in the first two dungeons the square button did nothing, but this greatly mitigates my frustration with the game. I still hate the fact that I dragged around three useless characters for several hours, but this definitely seems to be in the school of "the first few hours are horrible and then it turns pretty good" design. I told you I'd give it a fair shake.
You think you will do a full review for it? Or are you just playing enough to give some basic opinions on it?
I'm not saying the numbers are so substantially better that NISA'd be stupid not to be making Vita exclusives, of course, but just that the console isn't in any worse a position this year than it was last year. And if they're viable this year and the kinds of games that get picked up by NISA/XSEED/Aksys are still being made for Japan, then they would be viable into 2016 too.
The pessimist in me agrees with you. If it were my localization company, if I were working on Vita games I'd be making sure they had a PS4 counterpart (such as Ys 8; Estival Versus) in anticipation of a fall in 2016. But I think we'll be hard pressed not to see any localized exclusives in that year, and if we do, I don't think it'll be because 2015 will be so far down on 2014 because it won't be
my feeling is that without the mid-year boost the vita 2000 gave last year's sales, things are going to dip below last year's rather quickly.
we're at the point where retailers are just going to get rid of the system. have you gone into a best buy or target recently? the most space i've seen dedicated to vita has been two shelves and maybe ten games total, and all of them are western-based titles that are several months old. gamestop has the most prominent placement for the machine and it's a single rack of new and used games in the middle of the store. if you're nisa, xseed, or aksys, your game is most likely only selling on online versions of brick and mortar stores, and probably at gamestop proper.
the vita's gone on quite a bit longer than it should have to be honest. we're almost a year out from sony announcing they were done supporting the system with new big titles. in 2015 they only have one physical release: a looney tunes sports game.
2015's going to be fun. enjoy it as a last hurrah of sorts. dancing all night, danganronpa, the neptunia games, and whatever else comes over should be a decent send off for the system. but it's not going to convince publishers to give it more support in 2016, exclusively.
now what you might see in 2016 and later are games published for the vita and the ps4. games that were previously strong vita franchises will be turned into ps4 titles too - in japan to complement vita sales with ps4 sales, and around the rest of the world to complement ps4 sales with vita sales. you might also see a few exclusive vita games, but consider them rarities.
YianGaruga
Banned
I feel like the Vita is serving a niche market that just doesn't get love anywhere else. It's obviously not big and it doesn't matter at retail, but it's there. Where is that going to be when the Vita is no more? PC? PS4? 3DS? (which also isn't the most "alive" console these days). It's just not the same.
I'll just stick my fingers in my ears and hope that we'll get localizations forever. But it will probably be another PSP situation where a mountain of good games just never gets localized.
I'll just stick my fingers in my ears and hope that we'll get localizations forever. But it will probably be another PSP situation where a mountain of good games just never gets localized.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
If anything just expect more digital only titles.
YianGaruga
Banned
I would be perfectly happy with that.
JoeyJungle
Banned
Thanks for the updated! Glad it's looking better now. I was wondering, how is the exp divided? Is it one person gets an equal portion of the total EXP (so if you had 3 party members and 12 total exp, they would each get 4 xp), or if the total exp is 12 then everyone gets 12? If it's the first, then a smaller party would level up faster. Maybe you're supposed to start the game with 3 front row members, level them up a little bit, then after you get those members some basic gear you'll be able to grind fast enough to get some long range weapon users started pretty quickly?
Also, does this game have an auto-attack/turbo speed? Ever since I saw that in the PSP FFIV I'm a little disappointed with any jrpg that doesn't have that.
YianGaruga
Banned
In Demon Gaze you can repeat your previous actions by pressing triangle and hold any button to just fast forward through attacks. I hope this game has something similar as it's VERY convenient.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
Its not exactly smart to have a smaller party, sides if you know what you are doing getting exp isnt that hard. Even more so if you have a samurai with the right gear. The game uses a system which the longer you stay and fight the higher the risk meter goes which means more exp and chance for better items as the enemies are stronger. That and the game says that the specific amount of exp earned is distributed to everyone. So that keeps the whole exp gaining fairly simple and using the risk system helps you gain more by fighting stronger enemies.
Starting equipment is pretty bad but thankfully this game is easier to get loot due to how the drop system works, then just going back to the base and creating new stuff. For the most part out side of 1 or 2 enemies the starting dungeon is fairly safe unless you get real unlucky and a large number of a particular type shows up. That or the floor boss lol.
Yes there is a sped up battle command, but depending on what you are fighting do not recommend using it all the time if you are in someplace new. Unless you like having characters die instantly, which can happen.
JP gameplay footage of me playing on the first real dungeon, though word of warning is you will see what the whole floor plan looks like as I have the map completely filled out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-ZEM0UC6lM
Do you have access to the full game or just the beginning? Are you going for the full ride, completing the game?
Kresnik258
Member
I thought you might say this, and I think you're mis-remembering what actually happened with Vita in the USA last year:
May 2014 (Borderlands 2 + Vita2000) ~ 57k
June 2014 ~ 15k
July 2014 ~ 16k
August 2014 < 6k
September 2014 ~ 20k
Just to refresh your memory: Vita2000 released in May, provided a spike for the month, and then Sony barely shipped any more units. I don't live in the USA myself but I remember people complaining on numerous forums I posted on that you literally couldn't find the console anywhere some months (looking at those numbers I just linked, it was presumably August).
And point being, anyway, that despite a 2014 where there were periods where the consoles literally wasn't being sold, we're still here in 2015 with a slate full of Vita retail titles coming, a fair few of them exclusive.
I can't comment on that unfortunately because I don't like in the USA. All I can say is what happened in the UK. Here, Vita titles were pulled from supermarkets in mid-2013 ish. Soul Sacrifice didn't get stocked at all. You'll occasionally see Vita games in stock in my local Tesco - they got some copies of Tearaway in when that launched, for example. Currently they have 4 games in stock - FIFA 15; God of War Collection; Minecraft; Borderlands 2. Nothing else, hasn't been for at least a year.
For dedicated gaming retailers - these tend to get stock of pretty much everything in on launch day. I can go to Grainger Games to pick up Neptunia; or GAME to pick up Toukiden if I wanted (but I don't, because I order online).
It's been like this since at least mid-2013. So again, the only thing I can say is it doesn't feel like there's been any more erosion over the past few months than was already happening a long, long time ago. Perhaps it's different for the USA.
But I have to ask - is Target or Best Buy removing these games really affecting NISA/Aksys/Atlus etc.? Were their games being stocked anyway? Because it sounds like it was just the more mainstream stuff that was stocked in them
My overall point, anyway, is that the Vita has been in a horrible position in the west for at least 2 years now, yet we have a 2015 with a release schedule full of localizations, including a large amount of Vita exclusives. I don't see how things are suddenly changing now.
What I think will slow the localizations down is if the small crowd who currently buy them stop. Look at it this way - Vita sold 24k in the USA in February last year and 300k for the year as a whole, but Demon Gaze (which only sold ~6k in the USA in launch month, outside of NISA's store) did well enough for us to get Operation Abyss. DanganRonpa: Trigger Happy Havoc did well enough for us to get Another Episode. If the content is still being bought in the west, and still being made in Japan, then it'll still come to the west as long as the console isn't dead.
And right now Vita isn't. It's in a rubbish position, but no worse than it was last year (or the year before, really).
(I do think, however, that once PS4 properly roots itself in the Japanese otaku-developer fanbase - probably some time during 2016 - that things are going to slow to a halt for Vita)
Do you really consider the early part of the game "horrible" because your casters have limited spell use? They're far from useless, and I would argue that they're even more important early on in case you get into a bad spot before your melee (or archer) get their special abilities. I also don't see how it's that different than any game where your characters start out weak.
It has I think the same thing as Demon Gaze to speed things up, and you can either repeat the last turn with animations sped up or skip the animations entirely.
open pandora is your best friend . in particular in labyrinth cross blood and maybe operation babel....with a wizard/healer main and wizard/healer sub. it's just so op. lol.
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