KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
I'm of the same mind. It looks like the character models have done nothing but improved since they were revealed, but other things seem scaled back. But hey that's just how optimization works.
Witcher 3 downgrade arguments in here and nowhere else
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Who? All of the developers and publishers that have been guilty of downgrading graphics from early promotional material. Yeah, there is plenty. It isn't hard to find.
Is this what it has come to? We now have people that are trying to carry water for every developer and publisher that has been guilty of providing the public false promotional material? My post last night is not just looking more and more accurate but unfortunately somewhat prophetic.
Have fun with that crusade.
Your logic is completely wrong and ill tell you why.
First of all, Sony consulted over 30 Devs to see what GPU, CPU and RAM to put I side the PS4.
So if we are going by your logic that means every little downgrade this GEN is the 30+ devs fault.
Shame on you devs, shame on you...
CDPR weren't forced to downgrade the game, they could have kept all of old assets, textures ETC for the ultra setting of TW3.
A 980 would have handled the old footage like a champ with at least a solid 30fps.
But alas, they CHOSE to take it out.
For sure. However:
1) the new image is a crappy YT capture. It is so smudged you can't get an accurate representation of what it really looks like.
2) Some things have been removed, like the smoke and the mountains aren't as apparent.
There is no way to state without a doubt that these things haven't been done for artistic reasons or technical ones. Yeah some people like the original more, but until people can do like for like comparisons with good image quality then there is no way absolutely state one way or another.
Eh, I think this comes pretty close.
Did he just say shit mountain? hahahahaha
It seems the one with a crusade here is you buddy, whatever...
Who to believe Consoles Hardware Spec (concrete numbers)? or... Tinfoil Speculation..
mmm ..
biglittleps
Member
Driveclub has the best weather effects in a racing game we have seen so far and the landscapes of the tracks across 6 countries are beautiful using dynamic lighting, volumetric clouds (I love this when they move and change lighting) and close to realistic weather for me.
jim2point0
Banned
Who are you to be able to state that with such certainty?
swazzyswess
Member
Arguments like this somehow manage to ignore the realities for both console and PC game development. The reasons for TW3's "downgrade" and the choices driving the PS4/Xbone's power overlap in at least one critical area: the market for people who demand the highest-end graphics and are willing to pay to achieve that is out of line with the development cost and effort a developer must undertake in order to reach a level of graphical fidelity sufficient to satisfy the most graphics-obsessed gamers.
The "consoles are holding graphics back" argument might be technically true in terms of sheer computing power, but it misses the most important realities of AAA game development in 2015. Developers will only aim for that market after the financial risk of such an endeavor is minimal.
Practically speaking, I think the argument about Bloodborne, for example, being a bad-looking game because NPC's mouths don't move is a vivid example of this tradeoff. If From feels that it's not worth the time/money/effort to animate mouths, but not doing so contributes to them releasing great game after game, that's a sacrifice I'm more than willing to endure. For a lot of people in this thread, it seems like they'd rather have a studio sacrifice their own well-being so a scant few percentage of AAA gamers (across consoles and PC) can put their machines to full use.
(and I say this as someone who has no interest in TW3 and actively disliked TW2, so I'm not naturally inclined to defend CDPR in the slightest)
I have no proof, nor a list, nor concrete information about how was the PS4 engineered, but if so... yeah those 30+ devs picked up pretty shitty hardware specs
When you have $300 PCs already outperforming consoles... damnn... We are up to a 10 year cycle of downgrades.
It blows my mind that there are people actually trying to make a big deal out of that castle corner thing. That little cap of extra geometry would have a very negligible impact on performance, it's almost certainly a change made for artistic reasons. They probably decided they didn't want the city of Novigrad to look that much in disrepair.
When you see the full length of the wall you see that the added cap of bricks is kind of shoddily pasted over the original corner and only goes up about half the wall anyway.
You can also easily point out that the grass is denser and not so patchy in the supposedly newer version. But we don't really know what build that screenshot came from. It could possibly look different in the finished game anyway.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
It depends on what you mean by downgrade. If you are referring to individual elements that have undergone changes for the worse then, yes, there are some downgrades. But if you are referring to a generalized or overall downgrade then, no, that hasn't been demonstrated at all. Not even close. Much of the evidence, in fact, seems to contradict that claim.
Looks damned good. Different in places, but damned good.
And this is a huge, open world game.
Im not the one trying to blame the construction company that built the stores building for the occupants deciding to market and sell inferior goods under the false label that they are a more premium product.
Your argument may be the most awful attempt at deflection I have witnessed in this thread so far. And the fact you are trying to exonerate all of the guilty developers and publishers who have engaged in this behavior for years now is staggeringly depressing.
PLASTICA-MAN
Member
DriveClub uses Simul Truesky a weather and sky system that allows realtime sky and clouds control not only to look pretty but to intervene in gameplay i.e when volumetric clouds obstruct light from the sun when they pass over it and when they uncover the sun you get suddenly dazzled ingame which interferes in the gameplay. It is good they got inspiration from Driveclub but I doubt they used such advanced system in their game (such tool has been used in Arma 3 and supports UE4 too). That is why The Witcher 3 devs took inspiration from it. Just type: The Witcher 3 Artist: Driveclubs Weather Was a Huge Inspiration; Has Fantastic Weather Effects
Also DriveClub is one of the rarest games released to include fully dynamic GI with color bleeding and double layered foliage lighting with back-scattering, that is why everyone is impressed by its realistic foliage looking.
Gormenghast
Member
It's also possible that grass in the game is placed procedurally, while in the trailers and screenshots it has been manually composed.
This is VERY often the case, it's not a new practice.
WordsintheWater
Member
It depends on what you mean by downgrade. If you are referring to individual elements that have undergone changes for the worse then, yes, there are some downgrades. But if you are referring to a generalized or overall downgrade then, no, that hasn't been demonstrated at all. Not even close. Much of the evidence, in fact, seems to contradict that claim.
Didn't even see these, so it seems improved in some areas, but not others? I think maybe we should wait until more viable comparisons can be made when more people have their hands on the game. Oh and I also like the more colorful look of the recent build.
Sorry, I forgot you can't be critical of Console Makers... they are obviously benevolent benefactors of gamers (specially if they make your console of choice)
Its all about that scum... game developers, uughh disgusting...
I think you have beaten enough straw out of that man, perhaps lay off him for a bit.
I mean sure this kinda topic, basically anything TW3 related, is going to blow up more and more closer we get to release date. In sense what is being posted in this thread I'm not really seeing that much "new", a lot of this has been said and pics posted already before.
That said tuxfool and Dictator93 have made posts that I find interesting read.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
And I think your first reason is nonsense (sorry). It's pretty easy to see what's missing and what isn't. If we were judging off of 360p thumbnails, you would have a point, but we're not doing that.
As for your second point, I think that's the more reasonable line of defense. Things change in development. As I mentioned in my comment above, I think the character models have improved over time. Perhaps CDPR decided that more resources should go into that, over vegetation. In that case, there's no overall "downgrade" just an optimization choice, that some people might not agree with.
My point is your argument should be on that basis, not on telling people that their eyes are lying to them, when they clearly see things missing.
Once you provide a tangible proof, even the sightless about CD Project maliciously, consciously lying about The Witcher 3 visuals I'll be happy to agree with you
until then, numbers.
Did you strap that straw man to some moving goal posts when you started beating him? It would appear so.
Some people would say claiming a intent of malice without proof is actually defamation, but hey this is video games.
we are all about ethics
This is basically my take as well. We need the final game to directly compare since the time of day and locations for all of the footage have been dramatically different but the gut reaction I've had for all of the 2015 footage is that it doesn't look the same as it once did and for a company that prides itself on honesty and transparancy, I'd just like to see that called out. Sometimes trade offs like that can even be for gameplay purposes, too dense of foliage obscuring paths or hiding items so a change was made. I wish we could get those sorts of answers instead of constantly hearing "no change". It also could have been a trade off between better characters or better foliage, in which case I think they made the right decision. We just don't know and, while lots of replies are hyperbolic, I want to see devs start being more open about these changes. I just wish the discourse around it was a bit more mature (although with stuff like Dark Souls 2 and Ubi games I can understand why they aren't). These adjustments are interesting to me and if they were done in the name of making the game play better, no one will get angry.
Despite all this, these feelings only reflect Ultra PC settings which I won't be experiencing anyway. From what I've seen on PS4, that version looks and runs better than I ever expected and I'm ecstatic about that. Even stuff I was expecting to be cut back for consoles, foliage density and water effects specifically, are intact. It bodes very well for the future of large scale, visually impressive open world games built from the ground up for new hardware.
Admiral Woofington
Member
jesus these threads always bring the ugly side of GAF.
Back to beating that straw man I see. You seem to either suffer severe reading comprehension issues are you are incapable of maintaining the details of what a conversation was about for more then 60 seconds.
Calm down, go re-read my posts. Then start this again with something that is relevant to the points I made and the conversation you started that I responded to.
viveks86
Member
As always, you show way too much conviction in these posts. What if we find out that the downgraded shot in question, which has since been taken down, is actually a really old version that was posted by mistake and the "shoddily pasted" version is actually the new improved version? Do you plan to turn this all back and start praising the new "artistic decision"?
I really wish people would stop criticizing or defending shots that are taken down. You are wasting your time over potentially obsolete material.
Still writing assumptions as facts? I see
Considering there is strong direct lighting in the newer version and basically none in the older version (it doesn't show any shadows from direct lighting), yes, that makes it very difficult to form solid conclusions.
But even if the smoke has been dialed back, would that signify an overall downgrade of the game? What about things such as the improved water shaders or skin shaders the devs have talked about and that we can easily see for ourselves? Wouldn't those be considered upgrades? I suspect that the number of times we encounter a burning village will be much less than the amount of time we will spend looking at water or the faces of various characters.
Feel free to qualify all this any time.
......I'll paste this again:
You seem to either suffer severe reading comprehension issues are you are incapable of maintaining the details of what a conversation was about for more then 60 seconds.
Calm down, go re-read my posts. Then start this again with something that is relevant to the points I made and the conversation you started that I responded to.
viveks86
Member
Well said. Especially the recent leaks look fantastic. At the very least, the console versions seem to be exceeding expectations.
xXCrazyCostaXX
Member
No shit, things like this make me not want to visit this site. Game looks great. Did the demo look better? Sure, but it's a demo. Confined space and confined game compared to the finished product with everything running. It's a wonder that any of these people complaining have ever finished any game ever. No game is perfect and I literally mean no game. Just like no music, no film, and no painting because different strokes for different folks. If grass clipping through a rock makes you hate a game then you might as well find a new hobby.
I study Game design at University.
We work with 980's and 970's and they are extremely capable Graphics Cards.
The lists are there on Google, search Mark Cerny talks and you'll find the list.
Or Google PS4 reveal.
I will agree that they are under powered though
DealWithIt
Member
People think Bloodborne is a bad game because it lacks mouth animations? Priorities are different between gamers in weird ways. Some of the best gameplay ever, but no mouth animations is just too much to bear.
The key like you're saying is *why* the devs make graphical changes like this, if there is one.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
- On the one hand: game still looks really, really good, and most of those lost details would likely have gone unnoticed during gameplay. The annotated screenshots with MS paint red arrows always crack me up in how anal they can be. And yeah, compressed gifs and stuff isn't really solid material for good comparisons.
- On the other hand... devs really need to stop doing that. Really, please, devs and publiushers, just stop promising graphics that you can't deliver. It's like an epidemic, come on. I understand that dev cycles can be complicated and all, and that's why many games have a "work in progress" disclaimer in their footage, so why couldn't they do at least that? (If they did, then this whole complaining is rather moot, IMO.)
- On the other hand... devs really need to stop doing that. Really, please, devs and publiushers, just stop promising graphics that you can't deliver. It's like an epidemic, come on. I understand that dev cycles can be complicated and all, and that's why many games have a "work in progress" disclaimer in their footage, so why couldn't they do at least that? (If they did, then this whole complaining is rather moot, IMO.)
CyberPunked
Member
Supersampling increases the density and variety of grass does it?
BlackNinja
Banned
These two images aren't in the same lighting conditions. One is using direct lighting (sunlight) and the other is in shadow and using environment lighting. The lack of shadows in environment lighting is a problem with every game I've played to date right now. The ambient occlusion and self-shadowing while not in direct sunlight is subpar or missing entirely.
I agree with you, but I did already address that possibility in my comment. It may very well not be the final version. But I'm not going to change my opinion on it. I think it would have a negligible impact on performance and I honestly think it's a fairly incidental detail that won't bother me either way. I don't think that end cap of geometry was integrated particularly well, but it's not horrible either. I'm ok with both versions. I'm sure the devs likely had a good reason for whatever version they decided on. I'm sorry if I annoyed you.
Obviously different time of day and weather, we need a better comparison, but the sailing through storms shown in the 2013-2014 trailers with that kind of water is what I was looking forward too most.
If the final version on PC and PS4 doesn't end up being close, then that would be truly disappointing.
Glad I'm not as nitpicky as some here. Who cares how the game looked then? It looked better before in theory and it still looks very good now. That's the graphical fidelity they managed to pull off with a good framerate. No need to wish for anything else. Also, don't trust any early footage
and keep your expectations in check.
except Nintendo's
Amazes me that people are saying *Other developers do it!* *The game industry has always been like this!* Like these excuses somehow make it all fine and dandy and that we should all be happy to be even given a CHANCE to play a game like this, we should kiss the ground they walk on.
Haven't pre ordered a game since I was 15 because I don't like like supporting a Practice of buying something before you even see/test the product, that seems like a perfectly sane reason but when it comes to video games its somehow ok and even encouraged by not only developers but other buyers as well.
Fairly disgusting how the Industry treats its consumers by outright lying and false advertise their products but guess according to some people its ok, due to their own impatience because they can't wait and have to buy the game day one. Or don't care about being lied to and will continue to support the Developer.
Downgrade has hurt my trust in CDProject and any future titles they might be working on, if they outright said *Well we had to downgrade the game sorry guys!* It would still be a big deal but at least they didn't outright lie and continue on saying *No downgrade guys everything is fine keep pre ordering the game* While pushing out their expansion pass. Love how people defended it as well, *Nah its cool buy the Expansion Pass you can totally trust CDProject!*
Most people seem to wrapped up in the Idea that people are refusing to buy the game because there is a graphical downgrade, some maybe but personally I think its more because the company lied and continued to hand wave any mention that the game was downgraded. Its not because of the graphics its because a once trustworthy developer as now joined the ranks as so many have, and sadly I now have to be a cynical prick when it comes to CDProject because I can't trust any footage of future games they show or what they say.
Haven't pre ordered a game since I was 15 because I don't like like supporting a Practice of buying something before you even see/test the product, that seems like a perfectly sane reason but when it comes to video games its somehow ok and even encouraged by not only developers but other buyers as well.
Fairly disgusting how the Industry treats its consumers by outright lying and false advertise their products but guess according to some people its ok, due to their own impatience because they can't wait and have to buy the game day one. Or don't care about being lied to and will continue to support the Developer.
Downgrade has hurt my trust in CDProject and any future titles they might be working on, if they outright said *Well we had to downgrade the game sorry guys!* It would still be a big deal but at least they didn't outright lie and continue on saying *No downgrade guys everything is fine keep pre ordering the game* While pushing out their expansion pass. Love how people defended it as well, *Nah its cool buy the Expansion Pass you can totally trust CDProject!*
Most people seem to wrapped up in the Idea that people are refusing to buy the game because there is a graphical downgrade, some maybe but personally I think its more because the company lied and continued to hand wave any mention that the game was downgraded. Its not because of the graphics its because a once trustworthy developer as now joined the ranks as so many have, and sadly I now have to be a cynical prick when it comes to CDProject because I can't trust any footage of future games they show or what they say.
uncleniccius
Member
This is completely hyperbolic. You may be right, but wait until we have completely like for like screenshots and more high quality footage.
viveks86
Member
Haha. No I'm not annoyed. We've just been through so many pages that it seems counter productive to bring up that particular comparison under any context. Not many people are aware that they were taken down and it leads to uninformed discussions. We have enough of those as it is
That much is true, its hard not to be cynical when no developer gives you reason not to be.
![[Asmodean]](/data/avatars/m/123/123312.jpg?1526393694){kind=avatar}
[Asmodean]
Member
Some of the comparisons going on in this thread, have me genuinely concerned for people's eye sight.
I'm literally baffled at what some people consider 'higher detail'.
But, I'm also convinced that the internet feeds on fud, so w/e I guess.
I'm literally baffled at what some people consider 'higher detail'.
But, I'm also convinced that the internet feeds on fud, so w/e I guess.
Not surprised this thread got massive lol.
TW3 is the best looking open world game yet. And I'm also glad they dropped the art style of the earlier footage. Colours are great, I wish more games used them. But yes, the game has been downgraded in a few ways. As many have pointed out, the draw distance and foliage quality have taken a big hit. A shame that this had to be done for PC as well, but hopefully the modding tools are strong enough so that those issues can be addressed.
The 35 min gameplay demo was imo the best the game has looked (even though that was when most people were first noticing the "downgrades"). I suggest people watch the uncompressed footage again. The main thing I notice is the lighting engine, especially how it interacts with foliage.
Hard to explain, but the bottom image doesn't seem to give the same impression of sunlight and how the foliage is highlighted by the sun. Shadows are also darker and don't seem to use GI (not sure if that's the correct term) like the top image.
There were other things that might have just been in my head like better DOF in conversations, better interior lighting, etc but that stuff is pretty difficult to compare until we have the game.
Even though the game still looks amazing, it's not a reason why we can't be disappointed with how CDPR have handled things. Saying things like "there were no downgrades" or "ultra settings will be a slap to the face" is really not something the fans want to hear from a company that has in the past been pretty honest. With that said, I think most of the comparisons the fans have done are fucking nonsense. Like completely idiotic. I see something like this
and I just laugh because anyone with half a brain knows that screenshot is such a poor representation of the game. Saying things like how TW3 looks worse than TW2 just makes you look like a moron. It'll be interesting to see if CDPR eventually responds to this because they do care about their image to the fans and this subject has generated so much attention.
TW3 is the best looking open world game yet. And I'm also glad they dropped the art style of the earlier footage. Colours are great, I wish more games used them. But yes, the game has been downgraded in a few ways. As many have pointed out, the draw distance and foliage quality have taken a big hit. A shame that this had to be done for PC as well, but hopefully the modding tools are strong enough so that those issues can be addressed.
The 35 min gameplay demo was imo the best the game has looked (even though that was when most people were first noticing the "downgrades"). I suggest people watch the uncompressed footage again. The main thing I notice is the lighting engine, especially how it interacts with foliage.
Hard to explain, but the bottom image doesn't seem to give the same impression of sunlight and how the foliage is highlighted by the sun. Shadows are also darker and don't seem to use GI (not sure if that's the correct term) like the top image.
There were other things that might have just been in my head like better DOF in conversations, better interior lighting, etc but that stuff is pretty difficult to compare until we have the game.
Even though the game still looks amazing, it's not a reason why we can't be disappointed with how CDPR have handled things. Saying things like "there were no downgrades" or "ultra settings will be a slap to the face" is really not something the fans want to hear from a company that has in the past been pretty honest. With that said, I think most of the comparisons the fans have done are fucking nonsense. Like completely idiotic. I see something like this
and I just laugh because anyone with half a brain knows that screenshot is such a poor representation of the game. Saying things like how TW3 looks worse than TW2 just makes you look like a moron. It'll be interesting to see if CDPR eventually responds to this because they do care about their image to the fans and this subject has generated so much attention.
Sanctuary
Member
Boy, that imaginary dollar amount just keeps getting lower each year doesn't it?
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