"The video-game industry has a dress code - driven by a lack of diversity"
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Aaronrules380
Member
Yeah it's easier. THat doesn't make it more effective in this circumstance. The issue is the people who will be reading this are largely the same audience she's talking about lacking diversity. So saying her point in a manner that will single out a large number of the readers is simply not smart nor effective
sorry for being a man in industry that had a comment made to them about wearing clothes that were too formal.
Industrialist
Member
In which case, she is wrong.
There is no "unspoken dress code." Shirts and jeans are comfortable. What am I supposed to do? Dress in - what would be to me - an uncomfortable suit so that I don't feel like I'm contributing to the idea that there is an "unspoken dress code"?
She wants to be dressy. The people around her are more concerned with their work than constantly worrying about how they look to other people in the office. She disliked how she felt when she went dressy in a casual environment. Whenever I wear a suit because I have a meeting or whatever, I get people commenting on it as well.
I don't see how that means that "the industry" has a problem.
She also complains about someone telling her that they didn't want her too dressed up on camera as they didn't want to be perceived as "selling sex." I may have it totally wrong, but surely this is actually 100x better than "quick, we're on in ten minutes...have you got any low cut shirts with you that show off your boobs more?"
I'd love for her to look down her nose more at people wearing t-shirts with slogans on them, too. You know, as a "games journalist" she's only insulting 80% of her audience with those comments. Pro.
To me it reads like someone who wants to be in the fashion industry has somehow fallen into the games industry, if I'm honest. If that makes me a dinosaur, so be it.
Why would artists and programmers wear dress clothes to work? That isn't a gendered...thing. That bolded text in the first post is just false, and casts a very wide net. Talking about the tv side of things...that's different from a development environment.
Putting on a suit or a dress isn't going to make someone 'more' creative, it's going to make them worry about ripping some fabric if they lean back too hard. Saying that dressing better will make their games better...that sounds like a judgmental parent trying to force change on their kids. (not to mention sounding totally clueless)
I completely disagree with this article's assertions. I also find parts of it slightly upsetting to read, as an artist. Restrictive clothes are a pain and a huge hassle. I hate wearing something that fights me and forces me to think about IT instead of what I'm creating.
Putting on a suit or a dress isn't going to make someone 'more' creative, it's going to make them worry about ripping some fabric if they lean back too hard. Saying that dressing better will make their games better...that sounds like a judgmental parent trying to force change on their kids. (not to mention sounding totally clueless)
I completely disagree with this article's assertions. I also find parts of it slightly upsetting to read, as an artist. Restrictive clothes are a pain and a huge hassle. I hate wearing something that fights me and forces me to think about IT instead of what I'm creating.
MrCunningham
Member
We need to go back to the IBM days when programmers went to work in suits and ties.
But it was really Atari in the 1970's that changed the industry expectations with their lax nonexistent dress codes and hippy counter culture attitudes:
Things haven't really changed since then.
But it was really Atari in the 1970's that changed the industry expectations with their lax nonexistent dress codes and hippy counter culture attitudes:
Things haven't really changed since then.
Startropic1
Banned
Gaming has been inclusive for women from the beginning. For starters go learn about Roberta Williams, not only did she create King's Quest, among other classic games, but she created the graphic adventure game genre with Mystery House and is the FOUNDER of Sierra, one of the most prolific PC gaming developers in history.
That's just one of many examples I can give of women impacting video game history. The whole feminist gaming thing is a crock, and doing just a little research proves it.
Get out of here, there is a real problem with inclusiveness in the industry. Just because you can name a few names doesnt change that like 2-3% of people in the games industry are women, and thats a problem that limits the creative pool for games.
though the problem is more an overall culture issue of tech based industrys not being "for women" when that is fixed then everything else should follow.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
EDIT: Nevermind, misunderstood a comment.
PaulBizkit
Member
pro-tip: wear shorts, they are comfy and easy to wear.
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
damn, almost caught the "something something you guys act like they're trying to cut your penis off" comment
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Hey, the president of the United States is black, racism is over!!!!!!
I think you have completely misread what she is saying
She is saying this is a symptom of lack of diversity, and concludes with she is not conforming because the industry could use some diversity
She is saying if she acts/dresses as she would, she would stand out for doing so, for being herself
In the same way as someone from a legal firm dressing in a suit and then going to a gaming event would stand out, despite the suit being what they're comfortable in (in a work environment)
Aaronrules380
Member
My issue with this article is that it's just rambling about an issue that most are honestly aware of in a manner that not only presents no solutions, but also seems to target the exact same group of people who are likely to end up reading the article.
It sucks that she felt singled out, and it sucks that the game industry isn't diverse. But complaining about the fact that the people who currently work there like to wear a certain type of clothes changes nothing. It won't encourage a more diverse audience to join the industry. It won't make people change what they like to wear so what is currently a small minority in the industry feel better. It won't gain sympathy from the readers, most of whom are unlikely to understand the issue, especially as it was presented, and as such nothing is achieved
It sucks that she felt singled out, and it sucks that the game industry isn't diverse. But complaining about the fact that the people who currently work there like to wear a certain type of clothes changes nothing. It won't encourage a more diverse audience to join the industry. It won't make people change what they like to wear so what is currently a small minority in the industry feel better. It won't gain sympathy from the readers, most of whom are unlikely to understand the issue, especially as it was presented, and as such nothing is achieved
pants
Member
The guy who sits at the desk behind me does this. I always feel like he's taunting me with his calf muscles
Yeah the whole gamergate thing undermines your point
Yes there have been amazing woman in gaming, that doesn't mean gaming is either representative or a welcoming place for woman in general
You may actually want to do some of that research you're telling other people to do.
Both are equally bad. She's a woman, not a child. She should be able to dress how she wants on camera.
Yeah that line is very dinosaur-esque.
TheSpoiler
Member
Super edit: I'll just write a whole new post.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
It's not gender specific because men can easily walk into a room and feel ill dressed for the situation. Especially in a business environment. Granted, I don't know what it feels like to be in a dress while everyone else is wearing pants, but I absolutely know what it feels like to be in a room and be under dressed compared to everyone around me and feel like people are judging me for it. Men can get discriminated for the way they dress in business environments just like any woman can. This isn't even close to being a problem unique to females.
no casual Fridays?
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
But it was really Atari in the 1970's that changed the industry expectations with their lax nonexistent dress codes and hippy counter culture attitudes:
Things haven't really changed since then.
They smoked weed and drank lots of liquor while they worked. They had to fight for their cut of the profits, but they had fun making games for quite some time.
Watch the documentary Once Upon Atari. It's pretty good.
Aaronrules380
Member
That's fine. But what does that actually achieve? Good for her, she isn't conforming. But that still doesn't make this article any more productive. You can complain about people missing the point all you want, but if most of the people reading an article don't grasp the point it's trying to make, than part of the fault of that is clearly on the writer. It's the writer's job to effectively convey their points, not the readers
Dr. Black Jack
Member
depths20XX
Member
I totally get where she's coming from.
I try to bring a little class to the office space by wearing my fedora and trenchcoat ("cake is a lie shirt" underneath). It only results in me being ostracized by my casual dress co-workers.
I try to bring a little class to the office space by wearing my fedora and trenchcoat ("cake is a lie shirt" underneath). It only results in me being ostracized by my casual dress co-workers.
Alx
Member
I think he's half right though. I don't remember the exact statistics, but in the early years of computing, there was almost a 50/50 ratio of men/women in the industry. A few decades later, women are by far a minority. So it's very probable gaming has been inclusive for women at the beginning, only it's not so much any more.
Sticky&Sweet
Banned
I hated it. There was a lot of pressure to look good.
Now I work in an office where I can wear what I want, it's fab.
Startropic1
Banned
So, you think there is a problem with inclusiveness for women, yet in a time that by your logic would have been the worst for women in gaming, a woman was not only able to create an entire genre, but she was able to start a highly successful game development company. This ONE case highly contradicts your logic. If this inclusiveness problem really existed, her ventures should have been a complete failure, but they were in fact highly successful.
This isn't about you, no one is asking you to change, no one is asking anything of you, she is not saying everyone should dress in suits
She is saying a de faco dress code is the symptom of a lack of diversity in the industry, and saying if there were more woman in the industry, being (and dressing like) a woman wouldn't seem like something that was so unusual
Imagine you're dressed in a suit and at a house party where everyone else is dressed causally, how would you feel? Self conscious? Like you stand out? Would you feel welcomed?
That is her point, being herself and dressing as she likes draws attention to her, and that is uncomfortable, because woman are unrepresented in the industry
That's about what I got from it. Since the industry is not diverse you get a non spoken dress code. And even though it's no formal code, people still fall into that same standard styles and when you stand out you feel uncomfortable.
Having worked at Cryptic Studios, Linden Lab and Wargaming America, I can tell you that I dressed however the hell I wanted. Granted, I'm a latino male, but people used to ask me if I was interviewing whenever I would wear a collared shirt that was tucked in or a sports blazer.
Here's the thing; I'm secure enough to not give a shit what other people think is "normal". This is the type of behavior that is going to change the industry. We just need more people that will be comfortable being who they are and not bow to the pressure that comes from trying to conform to the group.
Here's the thing; I'm secure enough to not give a shit what other people think is "normal". This is the type of behavior that is going to change the industry. We just need more people that will be comfortable being who they are and not bow to the pressure that comes from trying to conform to the group.
So happy with this conclusion tbh
I have a female co-worker (We work as programmers) who fought for like 2 years with management to allow her to wear skirts (Our dress code says PANTS EVERYONE!) and she is incredible happy now...
That being said I like uniforms since that spare me the thought of having to match clothes and avoid repeats everyday =D
EDIT: Oh, I see this tread is starting to get messy... smh...
Exactly, especially the bolded part. I'm a Systems Analyst for a software company in Dallas and I wear button downs and slacks often. My male co-workers wear Avengers and Star Wars Tshirts. They will never ever find me at work wearing a T-shirt. Just No.
Some of my female coworkers have the exact same attitude. They say things like "I'm at work, not at home, I'm going to look professional." This article is just strange to me because from my own anecdotal experience, women dress up for themselves, not for their "Hulk Smash" T-shirt-wearing male peers.
I have yet to see one of my female coworkers dress down because "All of you IT guys are in T-shirts"
I'm openly admitting that I don't understand this problem. If you dress up once, people might look at you funny, but if you dress up everyday, people will just be like, "Oh, that's just how she dresses for work."
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
And if racism still existed Obama wouldn't be president.
Your logic is completely flawed.
What, no it doesn't. Should I post all of the incidents that prove there is an inclusiveness issue in this industry (from both the people that work in it and the people that play games), or will you stick your fingers in your ears and refuse to listen?
I agree with you but also I can see how not everybody is comfortable as you were. It's a hard thing
Industrialist
Member
Indeed. And if I'm running the show and she's appearing in front of MY cameras, affecting the perception of MY brand, whilst being paid by ME, and I feel that she's showing off too much boob, then she can either cover up or quit. Same goes for if a man was doing the job and had his shirt unbuttoned to his navel. If he refused to do up a few buttons, he'd be out.
She was streaming on Ginx, for crying out loud. It's basically aimed at 10 year olds. Then she's upset when she's asked to wear something a little more conservative.
It can't just be "I'm going to do whatever I want otherwise I'm being oppressed."
"I don't feel like doing these reports today, it's sunny outside." "We need them today." "YOU'RE OPPRESSING ME!" is utter crap. To have total control over what you do, you have to own the company. If you don't, then you have to toe the line or find another job. It's absolutely nothing to do with sex.
zeorhymer
Member
I don't get this article. What does being creative have to do with what you are wearing? Are there no creative ideas when wearing a suit? Does creativity have to come from jeans and t-shirts? What does it matter what type of clothes you are wearing to get the job done? The idea that there is a "dress code" in the industry is silly. Yes, I think you need to dress formal when making business deals to show that you are serious, but you can also dress formal and be serious when coding or animating or anything else for that matter.
Your logic is completely flawed. One case does not refute my point.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
If no one is looking at you weird or making you feel bad about wearing a suit to the casual party, why would you give a shit? I've had friends that work at offices come to parties and still be dressed in business attire, and no one makes them feel bad about it, so they just go with the flow and don't care. At that point the only reason you feel awkward is because you're self imposing this awkwardness on yourself.
Barkley's Justice
Member
At least it's not sports jacket and jeans. That shit is the worst. It simultaneously says, "I'm not fancy enough to wear a full-on suit and I'm also lazy enough to mix these two opposing garments."
Industrialist
Member
As I mentioned, this happens pretty much every time I dress up for meetings that other people in the company aren't attending. Males and females make comments. "What are you, off to a funeral or something?" is heard an awful lot. I don't feel that they're threatening to remove my power or that they're oppressing me. I just ignore it or tell them to go and f*ck themselves. It's part of the conversation. I can either stand there and cry about it, or I can join in with it and FEEL INCLUDED by ALLOWING MYSELF to be included.
I'm not looking for things to cry on my blog about, and I certainly don't run around claiming that every person in the industry is a scruffy mess who only wears one type of clothes because of it.
There are MANY reasons why we need more diversity in the video game industry. This really, really isn't one of them.
Aaronrules380
Member
Part of the issue with this article is that nobody ever tried to make her feel like she shouldn't be wearing the clothes she liked. That feeling came entirely from her own insecurity at not fitting in. It's true the game industry isn't diverse at the moment, and that it'd be nice if it was more so. And it's nice that she ultimately realized she should dress how she likes rather than conform. But at the end of this day, most of the article doesn't come across as anyone wronging her, it doesn't effectively convey that more diversity is needed in the industry to it's audience because it's too entrenched in an issue that few in the audience will care about, and it's ultimate message is the same "be yourself and don't give in to peer pressure" that's been regurgitated so many times that, while it's a good message, it doesn't impact people much