SpinningBirdKick
Banned
The shitty clothes people wear in the games industry is the least of its problems.
"The video-game industry has a dress code - driven by a lack of diversity"
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meltingparappa
Member
Add that she's 19 and at her first launch party, critiquing co-workers for not spending more more time in their 16-hour crunch days contemplating fashion and somehow that self-selection stifles creativity in creative people for not conforming to someone else wanting them to dress up at work.
This is something that endemic of of every societal and professional group known to man, from the expensive lawyers mentioned earlier to your garden variety punk rocker at your local college.
I'd say the average person views journalism as an exterior element of the games industry, with the term commonly applied to developers, publishers, and "that side of the fence". I'd probably have to say I agree with that viewpoint. Journalism is sort of it's own industry.
Like, I wouldn't say movie critics are a part of the film industry. That sort of thing.
julzillamilitia
Banned
Are journalist that report on crime part of the police, or part of the criminal entities they report upon?
Are the journalists reporting on the financial sector part of the financial industry? I'm talking people who have done an internship at a newspaper. Would they regard attending their first PR/presser enough to deem them part of the finance industry?
No they are journalists. their job is to investigate and report. Not to mingle and become emotionally invested in the subjects of said journalism.
edit: so on topic= if I'm a journalist i wouldn't care what a clique of people think. And this lovely lady shouldn't have given a shit either. I'm not there to become part of them. I am not them.
Stallion Dan
Member
Really not seeing why a gender issue being brought up because a guy wanting to look a bit smarter would have the same issues.
And to be honest this sounds like a 'in your head only' issue more than a real thing, especially since it ends with a line pretty much making this apparent.
And to be honest this sounds like a 'in your head only' issue more than a real thing, especially since it ends with a line pretty much making this apparent.
I wasn't really trying to dismiss it, but I can see how I might have. I just don't see the correlation with a lack of creativity in the gaming industry men wearing casual clothes.
As for her level of discomfort in as a woman in the gaming industry, how do we reconcile this with the conclusion of the article?
She becomes comfortable as she talks to other women who inspire her to be herself. She then states that this is what the gaming industry needs. Basically stating that what she was doing before (dressing up like a boy) was not what the gaming industry needs.
I honestly doubt that she's not still getting inflammatory internet comments. I would also assume that the same fellow female coworkers who told her that she is too flashy probably still have the same opinion. She's probably getting all the same issues she encountered before, the only difference is not letting it have a pronounced effect on her anymore.
Now ignoring internet commentors (for obvious reasons), I'll ask you fellow GAFers (because I cannot relate to most of this), but would the best solution to come out of this be?:
-That upper execs would not tell women that they are trying to sell sex? (I can agree with this one)
-That everyone in the gaming industry dressed up a bit more so that all women would feel more comfortable at events?
-That her fellow female coworkers would not feel the need to tell her that she is too flashy?
-That there would be more women in the gaming industry in general?
I just wonder, going through what she was gone through, would she now tell other women like her to ignore the haters and wear what they want to wear? Or would that be like turning a blind eye to matter at hand?
I'm sincerely asking, because I really don't know (parts of this or just foreign to me). The vast majority of the women who work at my company (a software company) out-dress the men twenty-fold and have no qualms about it. And the vast majority of my fellow male co-workers could care less. If you are in a killer dress, they will still wear their "I am your Father" Star Wars t-shirt the Monday after Father's Day.
I'd say a journalist CAN get "emotionally invested" or "involved/embedded" in a story and still call themselves a journalist. But that's just it! As I said in my post, they're part of the journalist industry. It's its own thing.
I feel she is in no position to be so critical of her coworkers and her profession. This is a person at the literal start of her career projecting her personal feelings and beliefs to everyone else. If she were older and wiser she would know that etiquette and norms exist at every work place regardless of career choice. This is not a problem that pertains to sexism. Personally I think she's worse for implying that the people around her should be in tune with fashion like her and appease her personal tastes. Proclaiming personal discomfort borne from ignorance and inexperience is not a valid call to arms for widespread change in an industry's culture.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
She's a unique snowflake.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Journalism is its own industry. I wouldn't say sports journalists are part of the sports industry. They report on the sports industry.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I don't even know if it's always "like to dress alike." I own a bunch of plaid shirts and jeans that I wear. It's just what I like to wear. It's also what's in the stores, so it's one of the first options for me to see when I'm there. People just get drawn in by what is the trend of the day. Me suddenly wearing something different and "unique" wouldn't mean I'm suddenly adding "diversity" to my job.
I wore traditional clothing from my homeland once to an interview. I felt awkward and out of place, they were all wearing suits. I didn't get the job. I guess people were just not creative/diverse enough to deal with it.
This is actually a true story, being 19 is... well... being 19
Exactly. She is thinking about this waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than any of those guys are. They aren't like "I need to wear plaid to sit a the cool table. I need to conform to my workplace!"
They are probably like, "Sniff Sniff, this shirt smells clean, off to work"
CastorTroy
Member
Yeah, wtf.
VibratingDonkey
Member
https://youtu.be/diYAc7gB-0A?t=1m46s
I'm not an American game developer, but I'd like to think no one really cares if you don't dress according to some perceived norm, because that's what casual means, right? You don't particularly give a shit?
I'm not an American game developer, but I'd like to think no one really cares if you don't dress according to some perceived norm, because that's what casual means, right? You don't particularly give a shit?
I don't see the big deal. If she wants to dress up then that's fine....do that. If there's no real dress code, you.....complain?
Maybe I'm not being understanding to her plight or whatever, but if I didn't have a dress code, I'd be PERFECTLY fine with that cause I can wear what I want and be comfortable and work in peace instead of worrying about rubbing my shirt cuff against a dirty desk or something like that, which would take a little focus away from you know....working.
If your style of dress makes you stand out then so what? If that's how you want to dress then don't worry about what people think or view you cause your place of business isn't a fashion show. Sounds to me she has a slight self esteem issue
Maybe I'm not being understanding to her plight or whatever, but if I didn't have a dress code, I'd be PERFECTLY fine with that cause I can wear what I want and be comfortable and work in peace instead of worrying about rubbing my shirt cuff against a dirty desk or something like that, which would take a little focus away from you know....working.
If your style of dress makes you stand out then so what? If that's how you want to dress then don't worry about what people think or view you cause your place of business isn't a fashion show. Sounds to me she has a slight self esteem issue
ab.aeterno
Member
I guess by your response here that your objection to the word idiot is a genuine one, and you wouldn't just be using it to imply someone's using ablist language to try and run them out of the discussion because they don't agree with you. That would be kinda shitty, huh?
Oh. I guess it's only ok for you to call other people, in your words, another "name for a mentaly handicapped person." My bad.
It's not necessarily about whether a character is dressed or portrayed sexually, but the context of it and the reasoning for doing so.
And unless I missed it, she didn't say everyone there was sexist, so you might try not putting words in her mouth unless she said that.
Lastly, it's not as if all people who object to the first example are the exact same people who agree with the author. Not sure why you present it this way except to tilt at windmills.
Gender is being brought up because they're very specifically clickbaiting identity politics in the headline -- "Driven by a lack of diversity".
The implication seems to be that if the games industry had more women, then not everyone would dress so sloppy. Which seems like kind of a sexist assumption to start with, but whatever.
[QUOTE="D";164352696]I don't see the big deal. If she wants to dress up then that's fine....do that. If there's no real dress code, you.....complain?
Maybe I'm not being understanding to her plight or whatever, but if I didn't have a dress code, I'd be PERFECTLY fine with that cause I can wear what I want and be comfortable and work in peace instead of worrying about rubbing my shirt cuff against a dirty desk or something like that, which would take a little focus away from you know....working.
If your style of dress makes you stand out then so what? If that's how you want to dress then don't worry about what people think or view you cause your place of business isn't a fashion show. Sounds to me she has a slight self esteem issue[/QUOTE]
Exactly. They dont have a dress code, she's like, wtf you guys are all dressing alike... Its almost like... like you dont have a dress code. I guess you guys are implicitly forcing me to dress like a you because, if I dont, I'll stand out too much.
I have an analogy for this I think...
The same thing happens in school when you have a class with no seating assignments. And you happen to sit next to someone who is just... bad. Maybe they annoy you, maybe they smell, maybe they snore. But for whatever reason they make you uncomfortable.
You could move (you have that option), but no one else moves, everyone else just sits in the same seat even though its not assigned. They are just comfortable there. If you move to an empty seat, you will stand out for moving. You are uncomfortable with standing out, so there is a problem with the class. Everyone should switch it up, be more diverse, show more creativity with their seating choices, so you don't feel awkward when you are the only one who moves.
Maybe I'm not being understanding to her plight or whatever, but if I didn't have a dress code, I'd be PERFECTLY fine with that cause I can wear what I want and be comfortable and work in peace instead of worrying about rubbing my shirt cuff against a dirty desk or something like that, which would take a little focus away from you know....working.
If your style of dress makes you stand out then so what? If that's how you want to dress then don't worry about what people think or view you cause your place of business isn't a fashion show. Sounds to me she has a slight self esteem issue[/QUOTE]
Exactly. They dont have a dress code, she's like, wtf you guys are all dressing alike... Its almost like... like you dont have a dress code. I guess you guys are implicitly forcing me to dress like a you because, if I dont, I'll stand out too much.
I have an analogy for this I think...
The same thing happens in school when you have a class with no seating assignments. And you happen to sit next to someone who is just... bad. Maybe they annoy you, maybe they smell, maybe they snore. But for whatever reason they make you uncomfortable.
You could move (you have that option), but no one else moves, everyone else just sits in the same seat even though its not assigned. They are just comfortable there. If you move to an empty seat, you will stand out for moving. You are uncomfortable with standing out, so there is a problem with the class. Everyone should switch it up, be more diverse, show more creativity with their seating choices, so you don't feel awkward when you are the only one who moves.
they are involved in the game industry sure, I woudn't sayh they work in it though
Yeah but, I'm gonna say... so fucking what? It didn't seem it had any sort of negative consequence apart from her feeling like she stood out, so what's the issue exactly?
And what's the alternative then, that people make sure that there's an equal split between all sorts of clothes types or something?
If she wanted to wear these clothes, I'm assuming that's because she likes it that way. So what does it matter whether you're part of the 5% or 90%? I mean I could kinda understand someone who's not happy to wear stuff because they were told they have to, but this particular scenario just feels like she's trying to find an issue where there is none whatsoever.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's pretty righteous to stand up to a boys club, but when you're faced off against a bunch of slovenly geeks it's also kind of sad. I feel like this premise would make for a good episode of Silicon Valley.
I understood the analogy, but my thing is why feel uncomfortable with changing/doing something that is supposed to MAKE you comfortable/feel better just because you don't want to get funny looks or something? This is why I felt like it might be an underlying self confidence issue with her because if it were me, I wouldn't care how people thought I looked if it made me feel better or if I liked what I had on, ESPECIALLY if there were NO specific parameters to do otherwise.
I understand the whole "implied dress code" thing with everyone else dressing alike but its just THAT, "implied".
Wear what you want to wear, ma'am. Don't worry about what people think, after all we're all adults. This isn't high school. Let your work in the industry or the job speak for itself....dress shouldn't matter unless your profession calls for it.
Ah, i'm glad you mentioned Silicon Valley. Absolutely perfect.
Monica from Silicon Valley dresses like the women at my company, a software company. I would never see her, or my female coworkers, stop dressing like this just to appease the, as you aptly put, slovenly devs and engineers.
They just dont care how we dress. They are going to do them regardless.
[QUOTE="D";164354122]I understood the analogy, but my thing is why feel uncomfortable with changing/doing something that is supposed to MAKE you comfortable/feel better just because you don't want to get funny looks or something? This is why I felt like it might be an underlying self confidence issue with her because if it were me, I wouldn't care how people thought I looked if it made me feel better or if I liked what I had on, ESPECIALLY if there were NO specific parameters to do otherwise.
I understand the whole "implied dress code" thing with everyone else dressing alike but its just THAT, "implied".
Wear what you want to wear, ma'am. Don't worry about what people think, after all we're all adults. This isn't high school. Let your work in the industry or the job speak for itself....dress shouldn't matter unless your profession calls for it.[/QUOTE]
I fully agree. The idea is to be as comfortable as you want to be with what you wear. You look at others and they are comfortable wearing very casual clothing. Letting THAT affect your level of comfort.... that's when it becomes a personal issue.
It is implied. Until someone tells you otherwise and makes you feel some kind of way.... yep, its implied. As I said in an earlier post in this thread, I out-dress every single one of my peers in my department, including my boss and his boss, and that's not saying much because they reaaaaaally dont care how they look. Absolutely nothing to do with their creativity.
If they don't care how they look, I wont either. I'll just do me and look good while doing it.
And i've officially been in this thread too long, lol... slow work day
openrob
Member
Because people are self concious and hopefully if enough people feel comfortable in themselves, then others bmight be as well. The change happened with her, not with the group.
I've been working for this company for many years as a programmer, also, I'm the one who's in charge of hiring new people. 90% of the people who apply are males, the rest are female.
I wish more female would apply for our job, but that's something I can't fix. And it pisses me off when someone blames me because the lack of women in our job.
Mind you, 9 males and 4 females in our department.
And out of this 4, at least 3 dresses "formally" and the other one doesn't give a flying fuck about dressing code.
No, its not a diversity problem. If you don't feel comfortable by wearing what you were wearing when you were told to dress casually or no dress-code, its not their problem, its yours.
I wish more female would apply for our job, but that's something I can't fix. And it pisses me off when someone blames me because the lack of women in our job.
Mind you, 9 males and 4 females in our department.
And out of this 4, at least 3 dresses "formally" and the other one doesn't give a flying fuck about dressing code.
No, its not a diversity problem. If you don't feel comfortable by wearing what you were wearing when you were told to dress casually or no dress-code, its not their problem, its yours.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
No, the implication is that if the games industry had more women, it would be more diverse and you wouldn't stand out just by wearing a dress.
TrebuchetGames
Member
Before I got into the games industry I worked in the IT world, but that wasn't casual, that was all shirts/ties etc. I didn't like the dress code, but I had to do it because that was the dress code.
It was a nice change to wear Jean's and shirts/t-shirts when I got a game job - they were way more friendly to the - as long as you don't look like you've woken up from under a bridge or wear anything offensive, wear what you like.
On a more serious note though, when you have to do loads of extra hours work, it's much nicer to be dressed in Jeans/t-shirt which most people wear outside of work and are comfortable in rather than a shirt/suit or something more serious. Some people may disagree, but I don't want to do a 12 hour day in a suit. I've met people wearing waistcoats/jumpers etc... whatever people like...
I guess I am one of those apparent stereotypes, I am white, male, and have a beard and wear trainers. But if you are from a country where the larger population is white, where more people in the industry are male and where beards are fashionable
then it's not really a stereotype but more of a numbers game. Also I am certainly not fashionable, but would I really wear shoes with Jeans... hah
I can't agree with that at all, I've met some very smartly dressed people who would have trouble coming up with a modicum of creativity. Creativity comes from within, the person's experiences, and what they are allowed to add to a project. Creativity in a team/company has nothing to do with how you dress, but how those ideas are cultivated and allowed. If you have a top down structure where you are over-ruled, doesn't really matter what you wear..
It was a nice change to wear Jean's and shirts/t-shirts when I got a game job - they were way more friendly to the - as long as you don't look like you've woken up from under a bridge or wear anything offensive, wear what you like.
On a more serious note though, when you have to do loads of extra hours work, it's much nicer to be dressed in Jeans/t-shirt which most people wear outside of work and are comfortable in rather than a shirt/suit or something more serious. Some people may disagree, but I don't want to do a 12 hour day in a suit. I've met people wearing waistcoats/jumpers etc... whatever people like...
I guess I am one of those apparent stereotypes, I am white, male, and have a beard and wear trainers. But if you are from a country where the larger population is white, where more people in the industry are male and where beards are fashionable
then it's not really a stereotype but more of a numbers game. Also I am certainly not fashionable, but would I really wear shoes with Jeans... hah I can't agree with that at all, I've met some very smartly dressed people who would have trouble coming up with a modicum of creativity. Creativity comes from within, the person's experiences, and what they are allowed to add to a project. Creativity in a team/company has nothing to do with how you dress, but how those ideas are cultivated and allowed. If you have a top down structure where you are over-ruled, doesn't really matter what you wear..
Things missing from this gif: Vinny's black "hunk" tshirt.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I didn't really notice this section fully when I first read it...and uh wow. I couldn't disagree more. Many industries and companies have full-blown mandatory dress codes and still manage to be creative. On top of that creativity does not begin with "how we see and present ourselves." There are plenty of creative people who simply have no interest in how they dress. Creative dressing could be a sign of inner creativity but dressing by standards or with minimal effort are not an indicator of a lack of creativity. I know my own dad works in web design and literally wears the exact same outfit every day. A black or white short sleeve Oxford shirt with black pants and black shoes. He's still one of the most creative web designers I know. If you want creativity to be defined (at least in part) by how you dress, you can look at someone who makes it a part of their life to center their work around eclectic dressing (a la Lady Gaga). For everyone else, clothing probably has next to nothing to do with creativity. As for the workplace, even without a real dress code, it's just a reality that group norms develop even within seemingly 'free' environments. I mean, this extrapolates to society on a broad scale, not just the games industry.
Now, for the drawing inspiration from "the same music, movies and books," part? Yes, you could absolutely make that argument. In fact, you'd have a fairly interesting thing to research there. But clothes? The stereotypical clothes that game devs wear are just the clothes that most people wear.
"Flannel" has been the traditional dress code of the midwest for both both men and women for decades. Go to Colorado or Oklahoma and just...look around for a bit. It "Breathes well".
Most of the people that wear flannel and jeans to work probably wear underwear and a t-shirt at home. (in other words: fuck clothes, get by on the bare minimum effort required)
Your link isn't working.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Trust me, I know. I live in Missouri. Flannel is freaking everywhere. I'm wearing it right now actually. It's kind of just what we wear around here.
At the last game developer I worked for anyone who commented on an applicant showing up in a suit as a negative was immediately ejected from the decision process, because lets face it judging anyone on outward appearance is asinine.
The only time I remember us cutting an interview short due to what someone was wearing was when someone showed up wearing bike shorts and a bib (they changes into a flannel), and even then he made it through 4 rounds!
Last time I checked the only thing we care about these days is the content of someones git repository, and if we can get along with them. Fuck if i care someone shows up in a t-shirt and jeans, suit, or business casual.
Oh god am I a game dev?
1) Plaid shirt
2) White Skin
3) Big Watch
Yeah, you are the problem with the game industry so from now one please refrain from excising your privilege in this thread, thank you.
I sure as hell can't speak for females on this matter, but from an empathetic (male) perspective, this comes off as a personal stigma.
I only say this because I'm a bit of a maverick - in that I don't like to conform to pop/culture conventions - from attire to stereotypes. Granted a 'persona' of this kind may be completely different from a female perspective today, but the "I don't care attitude" isn't gender specific. Suit, t-shirt, or dress there are lines to be drawn for ALL attire, but there's nothing wrong with wanting to look good...and professional - if complete strangers are offended by this - fuck 'em.
I only say this because I'm a bit of a maverick - in that I don't like to conform to pop/culture conventions - from attire to stereotypes. Granted a 'persona' of this kind may be completely different from a female perspective today, but the "I don't care attitude" isn't gender specific. Suit, t-shirt, or dress there are lines to be drawn for ALL attire, but there's nothing wrong with wanting to look good...and professional - if complete strangers are offended by this - fuck 'em.
I've been in the industry for 7 years, and there's a mix of what she describes AND people that dress a bit nicer at every job I've had. Nobody wears a suit, but some guys dress business casual and a lot of women dress quite feminine.
That's not to say what she described wasn't true where she works, it's just not the whole industry. There's a female lead at my work that dresses up every day.
That's not to say what she described wasn't true where she works, it's just not the whole industry. There's a female lead at my work that dresses up every day.
BobbyRobby
Member
I can't see how you'd change this without a dress code, which runs the risk of actually being exclusionary to those without the right clothes. The article seems almost aristocratic. She's not comfortable around all the commoners.
If you're overdressed, take solace in the fact you look sharper than everyone else.
If you're overdressed, take solace in the fact you look sharper than everyone else.
Oh god am I a game dev?
No but I do believe you may be partially made out of clay
Edit: kidding
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
I wear cardigans and button ups sometimes with a tie.. havent wore gaming shirts in a long time actually.
NullPointer
Member
Exactly my first thought. Sounds like the uniform for almost everybody in SF's SOMA too.
I don't do plaid tho.
Oh god am I a game dev?
Just a nerd
At my office (I work in publishing), we end up going to media industry dos fairly often. When people start there in their early 20s, it's really common for them to dress to impress for their first few events. By the time they have settled down ten years later, have been to sixty or seventy or more launches, award dos and general seasonal parties etc, they are usually turning up just to show their face for 90 minutes in whatever they can get away with and looking to get home to their family. At the end of year it can feel like there's several every week.
I'm really not surprised a 19-year-old (whether female or male) looks at an industry event differently to the other people there, for most of whom it probably isn't their first (or even tenth) rodeo.
Just as an aside on male conformity, at major award shows the guys all look virtually identical in dinner jackets that have only had minor changes to details in the last half-century, apart from the odd one or two who will mix it up by wearing a white tux or a kilt if they are flaunting their celtic roots. I think it's probably a historical thing to make the women look awesome and stand out, but it works better in an industry with a better 50/50 split. .
I'm really not surprised a 19-year-old (whether female or male) looks at an industry event differently to the other people there, for most of whom it probably isn't their first (or even tenth) rodeo.
Just as an aside on male conformity, at major award shows the guys all look virtually identical in dinner jackets that have only had minor changes to details in the last half-century, apart from the odd one or two who will mix it up by wearing a white tux or a kilt if they are flaunting their celtic roots. I think it's probably a historical thing to make the women look awesome and stand out, but it works better in an industry with a better 50/50 split. .
Her point is that in an industry that is ostensibly creative, you get treated like an outsider for not conforming to an incredibly bland look. Many women dress as a form of self-expression and to have others treat you like you don't belong as a result leads to making the diversity problem worse instead of better.
I don't work in game development, but I have worked in software my entire career. For the last 18 years or so it has been with companies that explicitly state that they have no dress code, that employees are welcome to dress how they want. I take them at their word but I definitely tend to stand out. I don't wear a dress or skirt every day, but probably more often than not, especially if the weather is nice. Have I felt out of place? You bet. Especially at events where the companies give out T-shirts with the expectation that employees will wear them. Just once, I'd like them to hand out cotton dresses instead and see how that goes over.
OldAsUrSock
Banned
John Oliver said something about 20 somethings only wearing plaid. He was right.
When it comes to staring at a computer screen for 12-14 hours a day I want to wear the most relaxing and comfortable clothing I can and that is the mindset for everyone. Sure we could all wear suits and ties but it would do a number of things including decreased productivity.
As for plaid shirts and such its not that shocking. Most short sleeve button ups and the like tend to come in some sort of plaid design. All you have to do is walk into any clothing store and take a look and its easy to verify.
Article is written by some inexperienced 19 year old who thinks they have the whole world figured out and instead finds out they don't know shit but still pretend they do.
As for plaid shirts and such its not that shocking. Most short sleeve button ups and the like tend to come in some sort of plaid design. All you have to do is walk into any clothing store and take a look and its easy to verify.
Article is written by some inexperienced 19 year old who thinks they have the whole world figured out and instead finds out they don't know shit but still pretend they do.