More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)
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youbastards
Member
Right, Theon should have sent a 911 raven.
The entire point of fiction is that you don't have to adhere to society's morals. If you don't like it, don't subject yourself to it, but don't expect the creators of the fiction to cater to your needs/desires/opinions.
Those quotes are horrendous and outright laughable. Man do people try hard to be negative in today's world.
Moff
Member
I think showing it via theon was the best thing about this scene, actor did a great job
and I don't agree that this makes it impossible for the scene to advance the narrative
neogaffer1
Banned
I mean, not necessarily...that's true for some fiction but not all of it, and definitely not the entire point of it...
ReadingRambo
Member
So why this. Not Theon losing his manhood, or babies being stabbed or the countless other atrocities. This just reeks of SJW reactionism and outrage culture. This prevailing idea that rape is somehow worse than murder is crazy.
Yeah, Alfie Allen -- who has basically had fuck all to do for a year or two now -- killed it. I'd be really really shocked if that scene doesn't at least have a profound effect on Theon, if not both him and Sansa, going forward.
How did 300's rape scene portray anything about Heady's character? We already knew she didn't take shit from anyone way before that happened.
Ah ... I see.
Let's pretend rape never happens by not depicting it in any fiction. That will make it go away. Even better, I love that the people complaining they are 'trivializing rape' have zero concerns about the violence.
I'd love to know what the people complaining think of SVU.
Let's pretend rape never happens by not depicting it in any fiction. That will make it go away. Even better, I love that the people complaining they are 'trivializing rape' have zero concerns about the violence.
I'd love to know what the people complaining think of SVU.
honestly I didn't really pay much attention to the scene because (book spoiler)
but I'm also questioning why they shouldn't be allowed to show a rape scene
it's pretty much the same as in the book, but with Sansa instead. I get that they could have changed the scene to something different and nothing would have been lost really,
But it was a common pratice in those times .... who don't remember reading in history books that "when dragons existed, rape was praticed left and right"
This is stupid.
Yeah so, it uses a lot of plot devices over and over and I don't see people quitting the show over it. Something rich about a feminist site declaring they won't publish promotional stuff about the show, especially on the heels of Mad Max and the MRA movement.
The fact that it's possible means it shouldn't be done?
The show ended with that scene. Kind of a presumptuous thing to say, no?
I mean I could go on... Quoting them doesn't chang anything. We know why there is outrage. Point is there shouldn't be any.
Obliterator
Member
As someone who is / was a huge fan of this show, this season has been garbage. Its making me lose interest quickly. By far and away the worst season so far
Dreams-Visions
Member
well said.
TheJollyCorner
Member
I could be wrong, but I think it's the psychology of it that is really bothering people.
Since the very first episode of Season 1 you had Sansa with her dreams of being this pretty princess in a castle far away, one day meeting a handsome prince, becoming Queen, etc. Your basic little girl fairy tale fantasy.
Things turn to shit, but over and over she's lucky to get out of really bad situations. Even though she was mentally abused, Joffrey ultimately didn't do shit to her when he could have. She avoided mass-rape at the hands of violent townsfolk (thanks to The Hound). She was forced to marry Tyrion, but he was a class-act enough not to push his 'right' to bed her, as he knew she wanted no part of him. All of these things could have happened to her, but she escaped them. Not only did she escape, she has held on to her virginity through all of this, miraculously.
Now we have this girl, once again, in a situation where she is engaged/marrying someone she's not in love with- however she doesn't escape the inevitable this time. Ramsey takes her, by right of marriage, but does so in an aggressive, humiliating way. That, I feel, is what is really fucking with people. People hate Ramsey so much and he's doing this to our beloved Sansa?!?!? Her sweet dreams of love and a passionate 'first time' were shattered. It's just heartbreaking, but I don't feel it's bad writing. It has its impact- and hopefully the payoff when/if she helps destroy these shitheads completes that impact.
Palette Swap
Member
As an aside, it's a bit tiring to see the world outrage used so much. It's become this very charged hyperbolic dismissal that means if you don't care for a thing, you're probably faking it for the sheer glee that disliking things brings you, ie you better like things or you're disingenuous.
Let's not pretend we'd have a thread on gaming side about "outrage at framerate issues" or "broken games".
Let's not pretend we'd have a thread on gaming side about "outrage at framerate issues" or "broken games".
D&D love to go the extra mile, even though whats in the book is quite disturbing none the less forcing Sansa into the role is obviously going to have a much grander impact.
The show runners are after the biggest pop, not telling the best story. Cutting off Sansa's turn from naive girl to player just for the shock value is a shame
The show runners are after the biggest pop, not telling the best story. Cutting off Sansa's turn from naive girl to player just for the shock value is a shame
I haven't been watching the show after last season and it seems that's been a good idea. The show runners have proven to me that they just don't get the characters and story well enough to make good scenes that aren't lifted straight from the pages, and they're changing this so much now that most of the scenes are probably not related to any book material anymore. Like 90% of the scenes that were original to the show in the first four seasons were shit.
So yeah, I'm more outraged at their handing of her character and the story in general than anything.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
Given that they haven't shown the ramifications of what happened yet, I think its too soon to be upset.
IAmRandom31
Banned
Sansa had 0 clue how bad of a person Ramsay was.
She sacrificed herself to marry Ramsay yes, that was her choice. She never would have done it if she knew what this Ramsay dude is capable of.
Oh no. You totally got me.
Oh wait, I also thought that showing all the Theon torture crap was unnecessary. At some point, just like this scene, it wasn't telling us anything, just that "woah! This Ramsay guy sure is messed up!" that we'd already known from the 3 previous torture scenes. Similarly, most of the other atrocities actually told us things about the world or the characters or something. Like that Cersei is willing to mass murder kids to protect her children's claim, for example.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I don't understand the sentiment of "ruined character development". Yes, Sansa is a stronger character. But no, she still does not have any real power in the GoT universe. Powerless people are dominated by the powerful. That is the lesson that this story has driven into our skulls since the beginning. Expecting genre tropes to play out like usual was incredibly naive. What did people think was going to happen? That she'd beat him up? Bite his dick off? Somehow turn him into a decent lover like Dany did to Drogo, even though it turns out Drogo was a somewhat decent guy to his friends and family? This isn't Disney's fucking Mulan. Sansa knew what was going to happen when she married him. Talking shit to his handmaiden isn't the same thing as talking down to the Lord of Winterfell. That's why she chose not to fight it. I'm guessing she'll be stronger for the experience as the show moves forward (no spoiler tags, as no one can possibly know where they're going with this).
Ramsey is a monster. And he's worse in the books. At least now we have less people rooting for him or wishing Theon would suffer worse torture.
Edit: And as for the parallel arc in AFFC/ADWD
Ramsey is a monster. And he's worse in the books. At least now we have less people rooting for him or wishing Theon would suffer worse torture.
Edit: And as for the parallel arc in AFFC/ADWD
Sansa's story isn't going anywhere. At least, no where that matters in the big picture. I think D&D know that. This is a Theon redemption arc, that ties together quite a few of the storylines in Winterfell/The Wall. Bringing Sansa north makes a ton more sense. It sucks that we don't get poor noseless Jeyne, but she'll probably be dead within 3 chapters of WoW.
From an acting perspective I can appreciate your point. From a storytelling perspwctive, I disagree.
This is literally ending your chapter "And then Sansa was raped" followed by a paragraph on how that made Theon feel.
The only way in which this scene has any barong on the narrative (not the fact that Sansa was raped, but the actual scene) is if it's a catalyst for change in Theon's story.
And that woild just be shitty.
excelsiorlef
Member
Always nice when people play their hand so openly.
Really? SJW reactionsism and outrage culture?
That wasn't what I was arguing, but probably - yes. See: Nights Watch mutineer scene, which was pretty graphic. Maybe I missed it, but that was not a controversy, at least not like this.
Some very harsh words for sure, and I find myself agreeing in some aspects and disagreeing in others. People have argued that a controversy doesn't actually exist, but I really don't see how anyone can say it now.
The Silver
Member
I don't get the people saying that nothing is going to come about this scene and it was just there for "shock".
I thought it was about pushing Sansa to ally with Theon, before she gave no shits about Theon and his situation and probably viewed him as a bigger monster than Ramsey. Now she knows who the true villain is and Theon is another victim like her with a common enemy.
Well that's what I got out of it. The episode ended right on the scene, I really don't think they'd do something so traumatic to such a major character and just move on with no repercussions.
I thought it was about pushing Sansa to ally with Theon, before she gave no shits about Theon and his situation and probably viewed him as a bigger monster than Ramsey. Now she knows who the true villain is and Theon is another victim like her with a common enemy.
Well that's what I got out of it. The episode ended right on the scene, I really don't think they'd do something so traumatic to such a major character and just move on with no repercussions.
ReadingRambo
Member
I was done after Barristan.
I just wish we were outraged about the right things. We can do more in our daily lives to combat actual rape, we could all be doing more to fight global warming, we could be doing more for social inequality and injustice, but hey this TV show I watch did something that makes me feel uncomfortable! Let's waste our time on that.
Dreams-Visions
Member
this.
Moff
Member
well first of all i agree that it's a catalyst for change in theons story.
but in sansa's, too, I dont see why not. I mean it's not like we haven't seen her face. just to follow your reasoning.
ErasureAcer
Banned
Don't watch the show or read the books so I really don't care about the spoilers...but the statement from the article about how GoT is trivializing rape is quite ridiculous when society as a whole already does that....look no further than Bill Cosby.
neogaffer1
Banned
Have you read TWOW about Alayne that came out recently? Sansa doesn't have any power, no, but the way her arc is going in the books, as shown by that chapter shows that she's on the path to power, and a much less egregious one that that of the show.
Garrett Hawke
Member
This is such a straw man argument. "Why should we help poor people in America when they're better off than poor people in Africa?"
Media is a MASSIVE influence on the way people view things. We should absolutely be concerned with what our media consists of and it is scary as fuck when pretty much the most talked about TV show consistently rapes and abuses the female characters in it for nothing other than shock value or to make male characters feel bad.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Never read the books, so what do I know.. but..
It seemed completely in character for Ramsay.. and part of Sansa's greater plan.
Ramsay is a inhumane piece of shit.. and Sansa agreed to marry him to get what she wanted.. which is control of Winterfell in the long term.
This scene set-up things to come for Reek and Sansa.
All those saying it destroyed Sansa's progress.. how so? She was going no where before this.
It seemed completely in character for Ramsay.. and part of Sansa's greater plan.
Ramsay is a inhumane piece of shit.. and Sansa agreed to marry him to get what she wanted.. which is control of Winterfell in the long term.
This scene set-up things to come for Reek and Sansa.
All those saying it destroyed Sansa's progress.. how so? She was going no where before this.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Was there this much outrage when Emelia Clarke's character was raped?
excelsiorlef
Member
So now Mary Sue and RotK are just the same thing? You're equating a discussion on the problematic way rape is used in fiction to that MRA site saying stuff like this
It's one chapter in a book of a thousand pages. She can be on the path of power in one chapter and have her head chopped off in the next. Pointing to one point in time and saying "that's how it's supposed to be!!" in a GoT book seems silly.
My thoughts exactly.
EdibleKnife
Member
Plus since it's fantasy, I could at least expect Ramsey gets his comeuppance in some form or another which rarely happens in real life. People are happy to say how hateful they are of Ramsey yet people are still "on the fence" about Bill. Still the tact people show about the subject in fiction can influence peoples views on it in reality so I can see where the outrage comes from.
Fantastical
Death Prophet
I'm a little surprised at the outrage... not entirely shocked but a little surprised. I don't quite get the criticism that the scene served no purpose. Do people really think nothing will come out of this scene? Like in the next episode things will go right back to where they were?
I'm not sure what Sansa thinking, but I doubt she really grasped the reality that is being brutally raped on your wedding night. This point marks an obvious all-time low for the character... I'd like to think this is now the point where things start to change. However, I do understand that people are tired of seeing Sansa being continuously powerless. I am also tired of it, but saying that the scene served no purpose other than shock value I think is shortsighted. In fact, they could have made it a lot more shocking if they wanted to. I was kind of shocked they showed basically nothing and just cut to black (with sounds... yeah).
I'm not sure what Sansa thinking, but I doubt she really grasped the reality that is being brutally raped on your wedding night. This point marks an obvious all-time low for the character... I'd like to think this is now the point where things start to change. However, I do understand that people are tired of seeing Sansa being continuously powerless. I am also tired of it, but saying that the scene served no purpose other than shock value I think is shortsighted. In fact, they could have made it a lot more shocking if they wanted to. I was kind of shocked they showed basically nothing and just cut to black (with sounds... yeah).
ReadingRambo
Member
Again with the idea that when it's males it isn't troubling, but females....hoooo boy. Can you not see the sexism in this line of thinking?
No. I don't even know what RotK is. My point is in regards to boycotting something because it somehow offends you
Feel free to change what I wrote in order to be upset by it. I said the fact we're more concerned about what happens in media than what is going on in our actual lives just proves how out of whack our priorities are. Media influencing actions in real life is also a straw man. Please come back with statistics that prove rape went up after Sunday's episode.
Actually, we didn't. The scenes we'd seen of Gorgo prior to that were of her love for her husband, either through direcr expressions of such, or by trying to rally aid for him.
In that scene, while I do find it a tad problematic as the first scene in which we see her deeper machinations, you see Gorgo and you don't see sorrow, or fear, you see wheels turning. And that tells you something about her. That scene justified its existence in the narrative.
"Well we used to watch CSI, but now we don't have a choice!"
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Did people raged like this when Khal Drogo raped Daenerys back in S1?
And yes i know in the books it was consensual
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