We're only halfway through the season. Plenty of time for her to become who she's destined (read: written) to become. Chill.
More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)
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neogaffer1
Banned
Yes, she had nothing. But before , she decides to take her own fate in her hands, and become a player of the game.
As a result, in the books,
she moves to marry Harold the Heir and remove Robyn from power, giving her control over the power of the Vale. I'm paraphrasing here, but Littlefinger made a point that all of the lords seeing her marrying one of the popular up-and-coming royalty who is second in line to become Warden of the Vale, wrapped in a heavy fur cloak decorated with the Direwolf sigil would move them to action to protect the sister of the former King of the North, a man who they all wanted to pledge allegiance to but were stopped by Lysa, a man who they desperately regret not helping. She'll get a loyal, strong, and well-armed army who have made few enemies, and she'll get there relatively painless and unharmed.
But then the show's like "lel let's make her fake arya and have her get abused by ramsay, we'll pretend the bolton army isn't hated by everyone in the north and ramsay would totally let her control him and the army would be totally loyal to her after fighting against everyone for months, including her brother's army."
And as I pointed out in another post, I'd be fine with that.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Are you being serious? "Media affects real life" is a straw man argument?
As an example, The Bible is media that millions of people around the world have shaped their lives around.
The scene was pretty disturbing. I'm hoping that Theon snaps back into shape and takes out Ramsay. I can see why people are outraged but in the end of the day this is fantasy show that's touched on this subject before. I'm not sure I understand why people are outraged five seasons in.
DXLelouch153
Banned
hes Georges favorite character
he might as well be wearing a Tribal Immunity from Survivor
GameGuru59
Banned
This. I knew from the red wedding that GOT is not a show for people without a good constitution. Its real as fuck.Exactly! Good post, Sho_Nuff.
Thanks to those tropes, I fully expected Sansa to have a dagger hidden or some ridiculous bullshit like that. Hell, I even expected Theon to hulk out and 'save' her. That's what a lot of other movies/shows have drilled in my mind, even though I know damn well what GoT is and to always expect the worst. I still waited for that grace saving moment to happen.
Unfortunately for Sansa the brutal, heartbreaking reality happened- nothing saved her. Nothing but the gross act happened. That, to me, is bold writing.
Martin certainly has his weaknesses (hello epic-length food and clothing descriptions!) but god help us all if the guy isn't AWESOME with character work and plotting. Takes his time getting there, but when he arrives, it's incredible. There are very few authors who I think have matched his highs.
If the goal is using that scene for the sake of developing both characters, it's still a scene about Sansa and Sansa should be the focus. Whatever effects seeing it had on Theon are secondary. Discussed or flashed back to later.
half a moon
Banned
I think it does the opposite of trivializing rape. It's made out to be the worst thing that happens to Sansa and something emotional to Theon after all of his hardships.
The problem I have is it's lazy writing. Let's make her marry Ramsey, which would obviously have an unpleasant sexual encounter to parallel Tryion. Now let's let it be rape and have Theon watch to keep the creator and better writer's idea. The same man who
She already had enough shit happen to her to murder. She was already heading down a strong manipulative path without needing to be married again and raped. The Boltons could have been overthrown before she becomes married. Theon could have shown emotion elsewhere It's the ultimate we will fuck with the Starks despite the books trollol
The problem I have is it's lazy writing. Let's make her marry Ramsey, which would obviously have an unpleasant sexual encounter to parallel Tryion. Now let's let it be rape and have Theon watch to keep the creator and better writer's idea. The same man who
saw no reason for her to be raped to develop her.
Crazymoogle
Member
I'm not going to argue about the scene or whether it should have been in the show, but I guess I will challenge you on this ignoring a character arc.
Sansa to this point has been little more than a passenger, relying on others to escape the jaws of death or Kings. But Littlefinger's - possibly illusory - choice was her line in the sand. She decided to play, finally, and this heinous act was her paying the iron price. Sure, she now knows exactly how dangerous Ramsay is, but the real lesson is Westeros 101: the most dangerous thing you can do is not play the game at all.
Ignoring the arc, I think, would be for her to make some kind of political moves, like a knife to Bolton's throat or careful manipulation of his girls. But she wasn't there yet, until she knew the true stakes. Now, presumably, she knows, and she will take risks appropriately.
youbastards
Member
Right, people are mad because they don't get to dictate what happens to characters they care about on a TV show that caters to horrific acts being perpetrated to characters that people care about.
Arguments can be made about how this impacts society or glorifies atrocities towards women, but the truth is that Game of Thrones doesn't impact society in any way other than being a tv show that is meant to entertain.
When you are no longer entertained, it's time to move on to a new show, and if you really want to make a difference in the world, turn the damn TV off all together and volunteer at a rape crisis center or women's shelter.
WrenchNinja
Member
I am reminded of the Always Sunny bit from Dennis about the implication when people call it not rape
My big issue with it is (speculation based on reading the book)
Also anyone who doesn't think it was rape genuinely creeps me out. Including the show creators. Especially them actually, they keep doing that.
this won't be used to develop Sansa's character at all, it's probably going to just end up part of Theon's redemption story. The same was arguably true in the book, but Jeyne didn't have a character to develop anyway.
Also anyone who doesn't think it was rape genuinely creeps me out. Including the show creators. Especially them actually, they keep doing that.
GameGuru59
Banned
The idea that the depiction of rape on television is bad unless you do it "right." I agree it can get gratuitous (like sex scenes). But GOT hasn't at all reached that point in my opinion. In GOT, power rules, and that's what the show is about.
excelsiorlef
Member
Once of the most fucked up but well done rape scenes I've seen was in a short film by a director I met a film festival. It was shot entirely her POV, so there was no real visual exploitation and it forced the audience to be her, it was her fucked up story. Not the rapist or some neutral third person camera, hers.
Moff
Member
I think it's important for the narrative that both are the focus
, but anyway, not really able to discuss that further in detail witthout spoiling what will happen next, sorry.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I disagree with almost every quote there.
It's almost as if Tyrion's monologue about the bugs being smashed went completely ignored. Life is a fucked up place where terrible shit happens to innocent people, often for no reason. This series reflects that better than a lot of other media.
I'll ask you the same question I asked of another poster, what would be the appropriate way to depict Sansa and Ramsey's wedding night, knowing what we know about both characters?
I thought the fact that they showed nothing (again, compared to Dany's scene both in the show and in the novel) was a surprising amount of restraint. The sounds and Theon's reaction were horrifying enough, and that was the point; it's supposed to be horrifying. If show-watchers, like Sansa, had any delusions about her turning him into her puppet, they have been dashed.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
No, they just got him aroused for cock choppy.
Didn't have a problem with the scene, seemed very in line with what the show usually does, considerably even tamer.
n0razi
Member
I'm guessing they had to take some liberties when the show caught up with the book... and then had to go with show consistency when the new books come out and dont match up
Has anyone brought up the rape scene in Strange Days? Its where the rapist puts a head unit on the victim allowing the victim to feel what he feels. Craziest shit ever.
excelsiorlef
Member
Can I just point out a lot of people are using the exact same logic that was used to defend Superman killing Zod and not really saving anyone and all that jazz in Man of Steel. You know that was so overtly rejected by most.
That everything that happened was unavoidable, had to happen that way, etc...
Just saying.
That everything that happened was unavoidable, had to happen that way, etc...
Just saying.
Not have them get married at all in the show and avoid the utterly predictable outcome, and instead go for something more interesting and unpredictable? Like what Martin's doing? It may have rape in it anyway, or some other upheaval of expectation, who knows, but some very cool things are bound to happen in the mean time.
It's interesting that this is becoming a flashpoint for no longer watching the show, but it's probably for the better. No sense in immersing yourself in such a remarkably bleak world and just getting more angry. Vote with your eyeballs(I suppose) and maybe other shows will take notice. In the mean time, I do hope that it doesn't soften the show's edge.
Garrett Hawke
Member
The appropriate way to depict what happened would not be to depict it at all and certainly not to depict it as a catalyst for the character development of someone who isn't being raped. It's the same as constant violence towards women in media to make men feel bad. So much of our media treats women and female characters as disposables and plot points so that male characters have "motivation" or depth. It's lazy and abhorrent because it dehumanises the female characters instead of developing them so that they can "develop" male characters.
The Silver
Member
the problem with this is that there is no way the Boltons would've waited that long to marry Ramsey and Sansa
The real bummer here is that if there's going to be any blame, it'll be "GoT got too dark!" instead of "GoT's writing went downhill across the board!" and people will make all the wrong conclusions about where to go from here...
ClayKavalier
Banned
As someone who doesn't watch the show, it's weird seeing fans being unhappy at this since all I know about the show is that it has very frequent nudity, sex, and brutal violence. This isn't even the first time there's been rape, I remember walking through the room while my wife was watching an episode once and that blonde kid was forcing a woman to shove something up another woman's ass at gunpoint.
It sounds like the brutality of this scene is what turned people off, but isn't everything about the show brutal?
It sounds like the brutality of this scene is what turned people off, but isn't everything about the show brutal?
I haven't read the books. But I've been an avid show watcher.
Game of Thrones has always been about shock value for shock value's sake. It is not a particularly deep or interesting drama. The characters are, at their core, pretty stereotypical. The show, however, is not because Martin has the balls to "go there."
Take Ned Stark, for example. He's the honorable knight/father figure/loyal family patriarch. A character that's been done a thousand times. What's so special about him? Nothing, except his death -- he actually dies.
The show is more or less high-level South Park. It has relied on gratuitous, almost gimmicky scenes/plot twists to keep people entertained. It is not Mad Men or The Sopranos or Boardwalk Empire and never has been.
Game of Thrones has always been about shock value for shock value's sake. It is not a particularly deep or interesting drama. The characters are, at their core, pretty stereotypical. The show, however, is not because Martin has the balls to "go there."
Take Ned Stark, for example. He's the honorable knight/father figure/loyal family patriarch. A character that's been done a thousand times. What's so special about him? Nothing, except his death -- he actually dies.
The show is more or less high-level South Park. It has relied on gratuitous, almost gimmicky scenes/plot twists to keep people entertained. It is not Mad Men or The Sopranos or Boardwalk Empire and never has been.
Doesn’t help that Sophie Turner (actress playing Sansa) pretty much has grown up on the show. I think she is 19 now, but seeing someone as a kid (I guess she was 13-14 when the show started) having to go through that bothered me and I guess others as well. Ramsey making the point that she is a virgin just made it more bothersome. Oh and what a shitty way to end the show, it happens then the credits roll...
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
It was done to "Damsel in Distress" Sansa so Theon can save her and get his redemption.
backflip10019
Member
I mean, come on:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/li... Breaking News_now_2015-05-19 10:17:09_acouch
This is the base reality of the world of Game of Thrones. People who are so offended by this need to grow up.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/li... Breaking News_now_2015-05-19 10:17:09_acouch
This is the base reality of the world of Game of Thrones. People who are so offended by this need to grow up.
half a moon
Banned
Why did she need to go there so quickly? Why couldn't Littlefinger and her have a manipulative plan together? "You'll be there for a week as I and Stannis match with an armies and you can even stab a fool." Instead of "I have my plans. They include you fucking this guy."
GameGuru59
Banned
It wasn't even fucked up. Like, I've seen worse scenes in multiple movies (12 Years A Slave, anyone?). It was tradition cable fare that really didn't even show anything. The lanister rape scene last season was harder to watch.
I suppose there's a fine line between "shock for realism" and "shock for shock."
Ned got there because that's who he was.
Sansa got here because... well, D&D changed the plotline to make this rape from Ramsay happen for Sansa.
They'll be through the roof, I'm sure.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
It was brutal in the sense that what actually occurred was brutal, but far more brutal things have happened on the show and in full vision for the audience, i.e dudes split in half with swords, rapes with spears, genital mutilation.
Does this happen in the books? Just a show watcher, but do we know this for a fact?
AlimNassor
Banned
No they dont need to "grow up". The people who are offended over people being offended by this do.
The rape is consistent, but at this point, unnecessary to the plot. She doesn't need another reason to hate the Boltons, Reek doesn't need another reason to save her, and they could have easily come up with a way to delay the wedding.
Consistent, but unless she is pregnant, I see no reason why that had to happen to create motivations for characters. It deepened already deep ones.
Consistent, but unless she is pregnant, I see no reason why that had to happen to create motivations for characters. It deepened already deep ones.
It's probably a breaking point for some because the rest of the season hasn't exactly been stellar so there's little drawing people in besides the misery.
And really, the Ramsay stuff on the show got old 2 seasons back. So much stuff they cut in favor of another Ramsay is comically evil scene.
And really, the Ramsay stuff on the show got old 2 seasons back. So much stuff they cut in favor of another Ramsay is comically evil scene.
Well, wonder how many people that said they would quit watching after
the Red Wedding
stabbed a pregnant women in the stomach over and over
I'd wager Game of Thrones' popularity is too big to be affected in any meaningful way, especially since it's a channel like HBO. The proof is in the pudding, but I sincerely doubt it.
Seriously, I'm legit stunned that didn't cause a precipitous dropout.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I mean, I get what you're saying, but GOT isn't trying to reflect the attitudes and state of society at present; its trying to depict the way human relationships were in feudal times. They also completely censored the scene was by simply showing Theon's face vs. actually showing you what was happening.
The idea that anyone says it wasn't rape is dumb though. Sansa's "choice" to agree to the match with Ramsay was a Hobson's Choice. She was told about it when she was 3/4 of the way to Winterfell. What was she gonna do? Ride off in another direction?
We have no idea where the plot is going, either in the D&D version or the GRRM version.
neogaffer1
Banned
Seems they're more annoyed at bad translation from book to show. I agree with their sentiment just based on what the book was--the garden scene was dumb as all hell and the rape scene, as I've argued in this thread, was unnecessary and badly justified, when you take into account where that character is in the book and how she's basically accomplishing the same goals in a more well-justified manner.
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