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[Dreams-Visions]

You're assuming this, right? Because watching the episode, she looked like she was absolutely caught by surprise, by having to "lay" with Ramsey.
I don't think she's playing some long game there, to be honest.

She didn't look surprised; just not ready and not interested. It's wedding night after all and she's not stupid. If she was expecting *yet another man* to be sweet and understanding and not bother...she made the wrong bet. She'll grow up and out of that naive spirit fast in that regard.

 

[Brakke]

You're assuming this, right? Because watching the episode, she looked like she was absolutely caught by surprise, by having to "lay" with Ramsey.
I don't think she's playing some long game there, to be honest.

Even if she thinks she is playing a long game then she's doing a garbage job of it. We know Ramsay's into Myranda because she's fiesty and bites his lip and scratches him up bloody and shit. Sansa sobbing and taking it doesn't really win her and power / influence with Ramsay...

 

[Hex]

Your link is broken.

Yeah I think it took me like eight tries

 

[Pyramid head]

Theon's[/B] leveling up only.

Yeah, screw any other way Sansa's character could be developed. Much better to take the rape highway to empowerment.

 

[sh4mike]

Add me to the camp that has been fine w/ all the blood so far but felt uncomfortable watching this scene. Left me empty when it faded to black.

I think the fact that the episode ended like that makes it harder to accept. Movies would never end w/ the good person getting raped. But rape followed by revenge, all in one sitting, makes that initial act easier to digest.

Ending the episode w/ Sansa limping around the next morning, with some indication that she was OK and in payback mode, would have removed much of the sting (but not all). I'd agree that the scene wasn't needed.

 

[youbastards]

I mean congrats you found a woman.

trope

 

[The Silver]

You're assuming this, right? Because watching the episode, she looked like she was absolutely caught by surprise, by having to "lay" with Ramsey.
I don't think she's playing some long game there, to be honest.

I think you need to watch it again, what had her shook was when Ramsey told Theon to stay and watch.

You would be calling Sansa a dumbass of the highest order by saying she was caught by surprise that she had to have sex with Ramsey. She went throught the same thing in King's Landing(and she steeled herself then too) but got spared because Tyrion is good people, she knows full well what happens on wedding nights.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

You're assuming this, right? Because watching the episode, she looked like she was absolutely caught by surprise, by having to "lay" with Ramsey.
I don't think she's playing some long game there, to be honest.

I'll quote myself from earlier:

Sansa resigned herself to this fate. Before she put that cloak on, she knew that she was going to have to sleep with him. She told Littlefinger weeks beforehand, when they were in the crypt, that she knew the reality of her situation. When she first was taken to Moat Cailin, she knew the reality of her situation.

I think people are giving show-Sansa less credit than she deserves. She knows she's going to have to put up with some bullshit before Stannis arrives, that was she and LF's plan. The plan was not "stab Ramsey on his wedding night and go running off into the woods being chased by his bloodhounds and knights". In her mind, this a temporary inconvenience. That takes strength to endure.

The shock to her system was Theon. Theon, whom she 100% believes betrayed Robb and murdered Ser Rodrik Cassell, Maester Luwin, Bran, and Rickon. The guy whom, only a few hours ago, she told she could give less than two fucks what future horrors he would have to face while she was there. In that scene, in that moment, she actually feels sorry for him for having to watch what she was prepared to endure.

She knew factually that his family stabbed her brother in the back.

She saw firsthand what a feeble, simpering wreck he had turned once proud Theon into.

She knew secondhand that he fed his jump-offs to his dogs.

The way I saw that scene was

"All right, let's get this over with. Theon, close the door behind you."
"No, he stays. He watches."
"WTF?"

I see it as she was mentally prepared for the sexual degradation by someone she can't stand, but not for the shame of it being shared with this person.

What part of the previous 3 episodes indicates that Sansa was surprised that she would have to have sex on her wedding night?

 

[Kinyou]

No, she really didn't. I'm about 99% sure she thought the stories about him were made up by his little lover to scare her away. And she was so blinded by hate for Theon, she didn't see what it could mean for her own safety and livelihood.

True, she didn't know about the real Ramsey. But aside from making Theon watch he didn't really do anything unexpected to her.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

True, she didn't know about the real Ramsey. But aside from making Theon watch he didn't really do anything unexpected to her.

I don't disagree, unfortunately. He was going to take her by force after the wedding no matter what, and she was not going to enjoy it.

 

[scabro]

I'll quote myself from earlier:




What part of the previous 3 episodes indicates that Sansa was surprised that she would have to have sex on her wedding night?

this as well. i need to rewatch the scene, but it seemed to me like Sansa WAS "playing along". She seemed reluctant, but understanding that she needed to get it over with Ramsey. But as soon as he makes Theon stay she gets scared and unwilling. And that's the thing. Sansa only didn't "play along" and continue the game with Ramsey because she was caught off guard by the one variable she never saw coming. She never imagined Theon living beside her when she agreed to LIttlefinger's plan. She didn't know Ramsey's nature and that he would get off on having watch.

 

[WordsintheWater]

As I posted earlier, those other things aren't "real" to people, as in they don't happen every day to thousands of people. Rape happens to thousands of people every day, thus it has a much greater effect on people when shown in media.

I can understand that, it's not a surprise to have a bigger impact on people, but this is a show that shows acts of violence and terrible people almost constantly. If you're watching something like this, you should expect terrible, horrible, inhumane things to happen. I understand if you want to stop watching it because it went too far for you, but you shouldn't be surprised or outraged that they had something like this take place.

 

[Cybit]

Winds of Winter spoiler? well fuck me timbers, getting spoiled everywhere. almost past caring now.

That was in Book 4 or 5 - its been known for a while.

Spoiler

The known TWoW spoilers for Sansa may not apply much if at all considering the show has moved it into a different direction for now.

Yeah, screw any other way Sansa's character could be developed. Much better to take the rape highway to empowerment.

<sigh> now you're just willfully misreading my comment to argue. We'll do this one last time.

Compared to the books, which had a character (Jeyne) created purely to be raped just to further Theon as a character, using that same scene (which was going to happen, be it to random minor character or Sansa) to instead at least possibly further Sansa and Theon is probably better than just creating a female character purely to be raped to further a male's story arc.

 

[Frog-fu]

Peculiar how people are so comfortable deeming it unnecessary, gratuitous, pointless etc when they can't say with certainty what comes next.

Now they try to frame this as the being awful all of a sudden. It's the issue isn't with the show, it's with people not being able to stand a character they've grown attached to suffer such an indignation, which is fine, it's an opinion, but there is no need to be so disingenuous.

I believe in the very first episode we was Khal Drogo graphically rape Danny and I believe she was younger than Sansa then and even younger still in the book. That should have been the cut off point for people. Terrible shit was giving to happen, and it did. Since then we've seen torture, genital mutilation, extremely graphic gore, a pregnant woman being stabbed in the stomach and gang rape both front and centre and in the background.

The point is: this show is not for people with delicate sensibilities and it's always been up front with that. The books depict an extremely brutal world and the show runners and HBO aren't pulling any punches in conveying that as they do their best to adapt the material for the small screen.

This wouldn't be possible on any other major network I can think of, and yet instead of celebrating the fact we are given such a mature show with a high budget... outrage culture can't help but rear its ugly head whenever something gruesome happens.

It is so very fucking annoying.

 

[Speevy]

I think it was totally unnecessary and I can't wait to see what comes next. I love this show.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

The problem with the scene is that it doesn't serve the story in any way. We know Sansa's life is a burning tire fire. We know Ramsay is a sadistic psychopath.

The fact that Sansa isn't raped in the books makes it even worse. The writers have changed things up in such a way that the equivalent scene from the book isn't necessary but they made the conscious decision to put it in. It was a rape for the sake of rape and that's why it's a terrible scene.

I think what they were going for is to have that act be the thing that finally makes Theon snap but we won't know until the next couple of episodes.

 

[Pyramid head]

That was in Book 4 or 5 - its been known for a while.

Spoiler

The known TWoW spoilers for Sansa may not apply much if at all considering the show has moved it into a different direction for now.

<sigh> now you're just willfully misreading my comment to argue. We'll do this one last time.

Compared to the books, which had a character (Jeyne) created purely to be raped just to further Theon as a character, using that same scene (which was going to happen, be it to random minor character or Sansa) to instead at least possibly further Sansa and Theon is probably better than just creating a female character purely to be raped to further a male's story arc.

They didn't create her for that purpose, she was around in book 1. I still don't see why having it happen to a 'bigger' character makes it 'better'. They're raping her to further a male character's story arc, and her own story arc in place of her book arc. I see that as worse, not better.

 

[jetjevons]

To me it just reinforces that this is a terrible, brutal medieval world. And that Ramsey is a sadistic psychopath.

I'm honestly grateful they didn't show more to be honest. GoT isn't exactly known for its restraint.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

*Shrug*

This scene has a point. We see that Theon is probably having a breakdown watching Sansa get raped, which might cause him to do something about it. So it has a point.

 

[Brakke]

I think it was totally unnecessary and I can't wait to see what comes next. I love this show.

Yeah same.

 

[Astral Dog]

i didnt know it was rape

 

[Kasumin]

The level of attachment is different. It wouldn't have made it OK but the anger would not be this intense.

I read the books and am too lazy to follow the show (didn't even finish season 1). So I've just been hearing about the show from others' reactions. Generally I just shrug and leave the show to its fans. But even this had me going, "They WHAT?!"

Dang, man. I'm not pissed so much as unhappy with the decision to

Spoiler

merge Sansa's storyline with Jeyne Poole's

.

Meh.

 

[Ralemont]

i didnt know it was rape

Having Theon watch kind of disqualifies any implicit consent by marriage, I think. Whatever we want to call it, it was very fucked up. I was horrifies watching the scene, but whereas sone came out of it with "they shouldn't have done that" I turned the tv off thinking that we were in the middle (middle mind you, not start or cause) of sansa becoming an altogether different character, and theon on the brink of sanity.

 

[Lokimaru]

Why change it from the Boltans having a fictional claim on Winterfell to an actual claim? I know Littlefinger hates the Starks but you'd he'd hate the Boltans more for killing Caitlin.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

*Shrug*

This scene has a point. We see that Theon is probably having a breakdown watching Sansa get raped, which might cause him to do something about it. So it has a point.

Excuse me, sir, but some people are calling that "lazy writing," because of reasons.

 

[DrBo42]

I don't understand the outrage. Is it rape? Yes, but a socially and culturally accepted form of rape (both in that world and our own history). It's not being glorified on the show. The audience clearly knows it's fucked up. What's the problem?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I don't understand the outrage. Is it rape? Yes, but a socially and culturally accepted form of rape (both in that world and our own history). It's not being glorified on the show. The audience clearly knows it's fucked up. What's the problem?

The argument seems to go that their choice to show it at all (and not being the first time) is trivializing the issue.

Apparently these people have no problem with the killing and maiming of humans being trivialized, though.

 

[someday]

You're assuming this, right? Because watching the episode, she looked like she was absolutely caught by surprise, by having to "lay" with Ramsey.
I don't think she's playing some long game there, to be honest.

I don't doubt that she knew she'd be having sex with Ramsey that night. I have no doubt that she didn't realize it would be that terrible. You can have sex without having your dress ripped off your body, being bent over doggy style and fucked hard (and as a virgin, something Ramsey wanted to establish beforehand), all while a man you despise is in the doorway watching. Sansa in no way signed up for the brutality of the event, in essence, being raped.

I'll admit that the scene left me sick. I love GoT but I'm just not looking forward to the next episode, something I never thought I'd say. It bothered me on a level that I usually can get over with fiction. And yes, the scene in the book bothered me too but at the very least it wasn't a character that I really liked and had watched for years.

 

[NobleXenon]

I stopped watching some time ago, but there has already been another two not-in-the-book rape scenes since I left? I bet it will never be brought up again like all the others.

I'm not saying the people who watch this show are sad little beings or anything, but what is the appeal of a horrible universe filled with horrible things that, as far as I've seen, heard, and read, never get better? Especially in an unfinished universe where I'm sure more characters will drop like flies as time goes on.

There are already too many dystopias and inhospitable worlds in movies/TV shows out there that I refuse to watch. Why do these things still get made, it can't be that people are this miserable and need some sort of relation; I refuse to believe that.

 

[Carnby]

“OK, I’m done Game of Thrones,” Ms. McCaskill wrote on Twitter. After describing another scene in the episode as “stupid,"

Spoiler

buh bye

 

[UrbanRats]

What part of the previous 3 episodes indicates that Sansa was surprised that she would have to have sex on her wedding night?

Basing my impressions on the way the actress portrayed the scene, that's the vibe i got.
She knew she had to lay with Ramsey, but didn't really knew what that entailed (Sansa was still a virgin and had lived a pretty shielded life up to that point, at least in matters of sexuality).
The fact that she thought she was ready to put herself through that, doesn't mean she was, of course.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

The argument seems to go that their choice to show it at all (and not being the first time) is trivializing the issue.

Apparently these people have no problem with the killing and maiming of humans being trivialized, though.

When was this ever the argument? Numerous people have said that it's a cheap attempt to manufacture drama by having a major character be raped when it wasn't in the source material. How does this deflection argument of "b-b-but violence, grim fantasy setting!" keep coming up?

 

[Orochinagis]

So this is mainly because

Spoiler

Sansa

was touched? what? everyone on her family got destroyed in some form except her.

 

[Astral Dog]

Having Theon watch kind of disqualifies any implicit consent by marriage, I think. Whatever we want to call it, it was very fucked up. I was horrifies watching the scene, but whereas sone came out of it with "they shouldn't have done that" I turned the tv off thinking that we were in the middle (middle mind you, not start or cause) of sansa becoming an altogether different character, and theon on the brink of sanity.

I meant i havent watched the episode and just read a little about some "violence" , and controversy,seems like Theon will have some kind of redemption.

 

[Tesseract]

someone get martin on the line !

 

[ultron87]

So this is mainly because

Spoiler

Sansa

was touched? what? everyone on her family got destroyed in some form except her.

Nope! That's not it.

 

[youbastards]

Basing my impressions on the way the actress portrayed the scene, that's the vibe i got.
She knew she had to lay with Ramsey, but didn't really knew what that entailed (Sansa was still a virgin and had lived a pretty shielded life up to that point, at least in matters of sexuality).

If she didn't pick up the details of "the birds & the bees" prior to leaving Winterfell, she certainly spent enough time around other women at King's Landing prior to marrying Joffrey/Tyrion to know what a wedding night entailed and what was expected by her husband.

Ramsey's proclivities would have been a wildcard, though.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

When was this ever the argument? Numerous people have said that it's a cheap attempt to manufacture drama by having a major character be raped when it wasn't in the source material. How does this deflection argument of "b-b-but violence, grim fantasy setting!" keep coming up?

In this very thread and more or less what that blog post being linked was saying?

I honestly don't see what the source material has to do with anything. Nor do I see what the scenes involvement of a major character does to make it a "cheap attempt."

It's pure condescension to assume that the writers had no reasons for coming up with this scene other than shock value.

I totally understand if people don't want to watch the show as a result of content like this, but it seems like a hell of a time start raising a fuss all of the sudden. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to equate their personal statement of "I don't like it," with a more objective statement of "they shouldn't do this."

 

[ameratsu]

It was bad enough when this popped up on my RSS feed with what was probably a spoilery photo, but I was able to dismiss it without really reading anything. Now this? Please at least wait until the season is over.

 

[suzu]

someone get martin on the line !

GRRM basically said that the books are the books, and the show is the show.

 

[someday]

In this very thread and more or less what that blog post being linked was saying?

I honestly don't see what the source material has to do with anything. Nor do I see what the scenes involvement of a major character does to make it a "cheap attempt."

It's pure condescension to assume that the writers had no reasons for coming up with this scene other than shock value.

I totally understand if people don't want to watch the show as a result of content like this, but it seems like a hell of a time start raising a fuss all of the sudden. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to equate their personal statement of "I don't like it," with a more objective statement of "they shouldn't do this."

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I am 100% in the camp of I wish they hadn't done this not that they shouldn't have.

 

[Night Angel]

True, she didn't know about the real Ramsey. But aside from making Theon watch he didn't really do anything unexpected to her.

I don't know about that. I think that Sansa knew what she was getting into, especially after the bath scene where Ramsey's depravity is explained to her in great detail. She seemed ready to play the game until Theon was ordered to watch.

The scene didn't seem especially brutal to me. Ending the episode with that made me feel sorry for Sansa and disgusted at Ramsey, which was obviously the intent of cutting straight to silent credits (similar to when

Spoiler

Mama Stark

died).

Not a big fan of the changes, but I can see why they've been made for the most part. Getting rid of excess characters and simplifying complex plot points makes sense for a show. Hopefully the changes end up making sense in the long run.

 

[Cybit]

They didn't create her for that purpose, she was around in book 1. I still don't see why having it happen to a 'bigger' character makes it 'better'. They're raping her to further a male character's story arc, and her own story arc in place of her book arc. I see that as worse, not better.

The only thing of note that Jeyne does is be the trigger point for Theon. We'll agree to disagree because I think with the change, there at least exists the potential that Sansa and Theon both get to grow from this, and

Spoiler

based on at least what we've seen so far from TWoW so far, the TV show is giving Sansa way more agency / power / authority / relevant storylines. The GRRM Sansa is probably going to be a complete whipping girl the entirety of the series. Being a Stark and all.

 

[Brian Griffin]

I can understand that, it's not a surprise to have a bigger impact on people, but this is a show that shows acts of violence and terrible people almost constantly. If you're watching something like this, you should expect terrible, horrible, inhumane things to happen. I understand if you want to stop watching it because it went too far for you, but you shouldn't be surprised or outraged that they had something like this take place.

My wife says she felt pretty disturbed despite knowing the show is full of violence and shock. She didn't expect to feel like she did. I don't feel surprised or outraged, mostly just disappointed. I know the show has always been about terrible people doing terrible things but it's just starting to get boring when it's not mixed in with good people "winning" every now and then.

They lead you on with hints that

Spoiler

Sansa's

life might finally be getting a bit better and then they pull the rug out from under you (as they've done SO many times before) as if to say "Haha, fuck you for getting your hopes up. We're gonna rape her instead and make you watch!"

Cool story guys, you are really breaking exciting new ground in TV writing. /s

I don't know. I'd like to think I could expect more from one of the most popular and successful shows in history but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[UrbanRats]

If she didn't pick up the details of "the birds & the bees" prior to leaving Winterfell, she certainly spent enough time around other women at King's Landing prior to marrying Joffrey/Tyrion to know what a wedding night entailed and what was expected by her husband.

Ramsey's proclivities would have been a wildcard, though.

Yeah of course i don't mean to say she was completely oblivious to the concept of sex, i'm saying that the theory and the practice aren't the same thing.
And she thinking she was ready to be a wife for political reasons in her head, doesn't mean she was actually ready to on practical terms, especially considering the additional variant of Ramsey being a violent psychopath.

 

[AWizardDidIt]

I think it's really telling how much of a cultural influence this show is given that it seems every single season (besides probably the second one) seems to have one of these big outrage moments where some event in an episode (Ned's death in s1, red wedding s3, obyeron's death in s4) hits the cultural radar in a very big way.

Each time I feel like it causes a ton of people to claim they're done with the show, however it gives the show greater cultural awareness and I feel like at the end of the day gets more people watching. That said, I think each of these events was important to move the plot forward of the show and I don't think this event is any different.

 

[Cybit]

My wife says she felt pretty disturbed despite knowing the show is full of violence and shock. She didn't expect to feel like she did. I don't feel surprised or outraged, mostly just disappointed. I know the show has always been about terrible people doing terrible things but it's just starting to get boring when it's not mixed in with good people "winning" every now and then.

They lead you on with hints that

Spoiler

Sansa's

life might finally be getting a bit better and then they pull the rug out from under you (as they've done SO many times before) as if to say "Haha, fuck you for getting your hopes up. We're gonna rape her instead and make you watch!"

Cool story guys, you are really breaking new ground in TV writing. /s

I don't know. I'd like to think I could expect more from one of the most popular and successful shows in history but maybe I'm wrong.

I don't know if Game of Thrones (or especially ASOIAF) has a mission statement, but the bolded is pretty close to one.

 

[Nodnol]

This all feels a little premature.

To have anyone raped just because is one thing, and to have it happen as part of an extended character arc is another. At the moment, we simply don't know which way it's to go.

The show has condensed story lines and merged characters because it's necessary for the show, or so D&D think. I largely agree wth the decision; not everything is as I would have done it, but I get the reasoning.

That means good and bad. If a character reaches point C from A, but utilizes storyline B from the books of a different character, then it's par for the course. Sure it's not Sansa that's subjected to far worse in the book, but the other characters involved are there, and for all we know the show will lean on their development too regarding these events.

I don't see how anything has been trivialized yet, at least not without seeing the full season and/or character developments. It didn't make light of the act, nor did it normalize it; the scene was pretty fucking clear how it was (Alfie Allen's face/acting painted a better picture than any words).

It's a dramatic and horrible scene, as it should be, but I think there are some book readers that are pissed at the differences appearing throughout this season. Such a drastic event, to a main character, just exacerbates the issue. I get why people are pissed, each to their own and all, but for good or for worse the show needs to find a way to present two pretty messy books into a format that works on TV. If they end up using this recent event as a catalyst for Sansa transitioning as a character, then I see it as no different to what she's been through, whether it was written by GRRM or adapted by D&D.

 

[Pyramid head]

In this very thread and more or less what that blog post being linked was saying?

I honestly don't see what the source material has to do with anything. Nor do I see what the scenes involvement of a major character does to make it a "cheap attempt."

It's pure condescension to assume that the writers had no reasons for coming up with this scene other than shock value.

I totally understand if people don't want to watch the show as a result of content like this, but it seems like a hell of a time start raising a fuss all of the sudden. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to equate their personal statement of "I don't like it," with a more objective statement of "they shouldn't do this."

These are the same writers who decided to have a pregnant woman repeatedly stabbed in the stomach are they not?

 

[Night Angel]

My wife says she felt pretty disturbed despite knowing the show is full of violence and shock. She didn't expect to feel like she did. I don't feel surprised or outraged, mostly just disappointed. I know the show has always been about terrible people doing terrible things but it's just starting to get boring when it's not mixed in with good people "winning" every now and then.

They lead you on with hints that

Spoiler

Sansa's

life might finally be getting a bit better and then they pull the rug out from under you (as they've done SO many times before) as if to say "Haha, fuck you for getting your hopes up. We're gonna rape her instead and make you watch!"

Cool story guys, you are really breaking exciting new ground in TV writing. /s

I don't know. I'd like to think I could expect more from one of the most popular and successful shows in history but maybe I'm wrong.

I take it you didn't read the books.

Spoiler

The good guys are fucked

. Not really a spoiler.