Night Angel
Member
Pretty sure that's not happening.
I've seen people ridiculing the idea that having rape in your show is unacceptable, though.
More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)
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I've seen people ridiculing the idea that having rape in your show is unacceptable, though.
D
Deleted member 325805
Unconfirmed Member
Just saw it, don't see the big deal, and you knew it was coming for weeks unless you expected her to suddenly fall in love with the pycho. The show would get pretty boring if bad shit stopped happening.
Many many comments are "but this is how the show/book has always been, why are people so upset?". I'm not saying is the only defense out there, but is more prevalent than it should.
Not that the "but no one complained about previous rapes" defense is any better, to be honest.
Agreed. Sansa does get a pretty shit deal and is continually punished for the sins of her father, she will have her day though.
Z..
Member
I really don't think it needs any defending, to be honest. Rape has been portrayed countless times in film medium and as with any subject, should never become taboo.
If you mean the misogyny, I'd wait it out to see just where this is going, as quite frankly I didn't perceive her as a victim in this situation at all. If it turns out to be that way, I do agree, though.
theignoramus
Member
Its a rotten scene, but do the showrunners even mind the uproar? They knew this reaction was coming when they edited that scene.
Beelzebufo
Banned
That wasn't a gratuitous rape scene. The one with Jaime and Cersei was stupid and horrible because it achieved nothing and didn't make sense for either of the characters, and on top of everything else the show was just like "whatever" about it and nobody reacted to it as if it was a horrible thing.
This most recent one really drove home how Ramsay is still a creepy bastard even in what you think would be the best possible situation, makes perfect sense for all of the characters (the way they'd been portrayed up til that point), obviously is a significant moment and highlights the challenges Sansa will face going forward, and focuses on the absolute horror of the situation (Reek's face).
This most recent one really drove home how Ramsay is still a creepy bastard even in what you think would be the best possible situation, makes perfect sense for all of the characters (the way they'd been portrayed up til that point), obviously is a significant moment and highlights the challenges Sansa will face going forward, and focuses on the absolute horror of the situation (Reek's face).
That didn't happen though because Sansa's not an idiot anymore. That's the worst thing she could have done (well maybe second worst, behind just crying) and goes against all of the character development she's had since Joff's wedding.
GameGuru59
Banned
I mean, if you don't like the show, don't watch it. And lol at that Twitter comment about making "rape about men." Just about every rape in the show is about a main character we follow very closely (not throwaway). Danny's entire story arc is about her overcoming her powerlessness. Sansa's seems primed for that too. Sersi's rape scene hasn't seemed to result in any real damage, but they're lovers anyway and one could arguably say it was "bad sex" (I wouldn't but I can see where they're coming from). Its not like the show is dripping with rape scenes. There have pretty much been 3. And none were really gratuitous.
Who needed confirmation of this, though? Nobody who is watching the show at this point needed confirmation that Ramsey is still a monster. It's literally all his character is. All we've seen him be. And we've had multiple scenes and countless references to reinforce his cruelty and how nobody except Roose himself, male or female, is exempt from it.
If Sansa's scene existed at all to remind audiences that "Whoops! Ramsey's still a dick!" again, it was still completely unnecessary.
Beelzebufo
Banned
It wasn't just that though. It was a reminder that even if we keep hearing how Ramsay is "falling for her" or whatever, and even though Sansa's home and can be strong, she still has a rough time ahead of her and she's still in danger.
It's probably a good thing they didn't go for something closer to the book lol. I wonder if that's why they made show-Ramsay such a nice guy in comparison.
GameGuru59
Banned
Now THAT was hard to watch.
Not really. One could suppose he might treat his wife decently. The scene removes any notion of that in the viewer's mind.
We heard that from one character. A single character who apparently had no actual insight.
Wasn't that obvious from the pre-wedding dinner where Ramsay got Reek to apologise?
Beelzebufo
Banned
And we've also had Ramsay giving her googly eyes instead of breaking her teeth in for the past few episodes. Sansa's had an almost shockingly easy time with the Boltons up until now.
Oh yeah, they've set up his character as being a nicer guy for a little while now, I just wonder if that's the scene that made them make that character change.
The absolute worse thing is going in there with no plan except to wait for Stannis, the guy that's coming with a huge army to kill the Boltons anyway. Stabbing him on their wedding night is stupid as fuck but it's at least a plan. It's a step above stay here and get raped for a while.
Well sure if you guys wanted another dead stark.
The URL say she DESERVES to be raped.
The Silver
Member
stabbing him isn't a plan, it's a death sentence and torture sentence, it aint a step above shit.
Well, that likely wasn't the point of that scene.
Sansa knew that she would have to give up her virginity, either forcefully or freely. She learned from Littlefinger... She has one thing to give- Her body and beauty, and she realized a few episodes ago that she'd have to grit her teeth and bear it if she ever wants a chance at revenge. That's just the reality of her situation, she has nothing else to give.
For now. Let's see where the writers take her character, because the Boltons are due for a comeuppance rather shortly.
Nah, the Boltons still need her. Roose Bolton would probably not give a shit and just marry Sansa in his son's place.
What is the plan?
Beelzebufo
Banned
Waiting for Stannis is a plan because it's certain to work out for her lol. Even if it's to a repulsive person, by marring Ramsay she's put in a position of power no matter what. Trying to stab Ramsay on the other hand, has two possible results with one eventual outcome:
1. She kills Ramsay, and promptly gets killed by the Boltons
2. She fails to kill Ramsay and dies in a horrible way
As opposed to:
1. Stannis comes and she becomes Warden of the North because he needs her
2. She stays with Ramsay (who is wayyyy nicer to her than he is to anyone else) and has a position of power in Winterfell
Ummm yeah. Stannis needs Sansa a lot more than the Boltons do.
Did you like miss an episode or something? They already talked all this out!
What the hell
MHWilliams
Member
For my part, on the books, it wasn't a specific scene. It was just the relentless nature. In the end, I just got tired of it all and frankly, I'm not dying on available entertainment.
People are focusing on on the dislike of the scene, not thinking about everything that's led up to this point. Wondering "why this scene" instead of thinking "this was just the straw that broke the camel."
Rabbit Lord
Member
I'm sure this has been said but the rape scene isn't bad because its rape its bad because of how the Sansa story arc has been written up until now and how the actual scene was presented. Sansa is the one getting raped but the show wanted the viewer to feel really bad about Theon instead. Both the Winterfell and the Dorne story arc's this season are terrible, once a great show losing it's focus.
I'm not so sure I agree with that.
I think this will begin Theon's redemption arc (if that's even possible), killing Ramsay and possibly saving Sansa.
Could have done that from the Vale.
I thought this was a revenge plot. "You loved your family. Avenge them."
I saw it. I don't buy it. Littlefinger is just lying to her. Not a big leap of faith to make that conclusion. She doesn't need to be there for Stannis. Stannis wants a Stark there. He'll contact her. Being there for Stannis is no plan. Littlefinger says Ramsay has taken a liking to you. This is obviously total bullshit. Does this preview gif from the next episode look like Ramsay's taken a liking to her? http://i.imgur.com/yh1Hsru.gif Liking her to be a new Reek, maybe.
The backlash to this one scene is crazy to me. There was plenty to complain about in the episode, but the last scene was expertly crafted. Most of the complaints boil down to 'rape is bad and it should never be shown, even off camera'. Well...okay? That's your opinion to have, but just know that you come across as being prudish considering that happens on this show. Or like those conservative types who think that portraying violence is bad and showing nudity is worse. Except in this case violence is OK. Sex is OK. But sexual violence crosses the line!
The other complaints are that it's pointless and does nothing for the characters or story. To that I would like to ask to borrow your crystal ball, because we have not seen what happens afterwards. I will eat a hat if both Sansa and Theon aren't greatly motivated to act and work together based on what happened to them in that room.
The scene is the culmination of both Theon and Sansa's manipulation by Ramsey and Littlefinger, respectively, and is a milestone in their character arcs.
The other complaints are that it's pointless and does nothing for the characters or story. To that I would like to ask to borrow your crystal ball, because we have not seen what happens afterwards. I will eat a hat if both Sansa and Theon aren't greatly motivated to act and work together based on what happened to them in that room.
The scene is the culmination of both Theon and Sansa's manipulation by Ramsey and Littlefinger, respectively, and is a milestone in their character arcs.
I don't understand how focusing on Theon's face (which was a fantastic performance btw) makes the scene about him. Nobody watching this episode was thinking "oh poor Theon" during this scene, nor was that the intent. I'm not sure if the scene itself was necessary for the story they're telling (none of us do yet since we haven't seen the last 4 episodes), but showing Sansa's face would've raised even more of a shit storm, guaranteed.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
It's a disturbing scene. To stop reviewing the show or watching because of it? If that's your conviction, please stick to it.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Nah, Littlefinger ain't lying to her. The only thing he ever wanted was Cat, which is why he saved her daughter (/clone) and is now going to go fuck up the people responsible for her death (the Boltons, I'm sure he'd go for the Freys eventually). He now has a good cover for why his army is marching to Winterfell, and he knows nobody else is gonna do shit because nobody cares about what goes on up north.
"From the vale" she's not in that super awesome win/win position we talked about, she'd just have to hope for a Stannis win. Obviously she's in a better position to get her revenge as lady of Winterfell, especially if she charms Ramsay which she certainly seems to be doing because he's being as nice as he can to anybody to her.
And I'm assuming there's more to that scene in the preview that's not included in that gif? Because he's kissing her lol. He's a creepy fucker, but he's kissing her, not knocking her teeth out.
I don't think you're giving Sansa enough credit here. She can do this. (Well I have a sneaking suspicion Brienne's gonna do something stupid and everything will go to hell, but nobody planned for that).
Where are you getting this from??? The scene focuses on both characters. It shows how distressed Sansa is about the whole thing. You are clearly supposed to feel bad for. Having Theon in there amps it up even more.
It's like you're purposefully ignoring what happened to form some twisted narrative about misogyny. I don't get it.
And that's the problem most people who have criticized the scene in this way have with it. From a narrative standpoint, neither character really needed this rape to motivate them. For Sansa, the Bolton's are responsible for the deaths of most of her family. For Theon, he's been tortured tremendously, and just seeing Sansa in that castle and knowing the horrors that awaited her would have easily been enough to wake him up. Them working that angle would have been interesting, and something actually different for the show.
Instead, we get another shock value rape scene that does nothing to push the story forward in a way plot elements already introduced wouldn't have worked fine for, and that told us nothing new about any of the characters involved. And worse, people are thinking this is OK because it'll serve as Theon's turning point. Well, people are fine to think that's OK, but you can't think it's good, fresh writing. "Rape of female character as motivation for adjacent male character's story arc" is one of the most problematic and overused tropes there is, and GoT really didn't do anything to elevate it.
That definitely makes sense. I can see how folks can get frustrated at this point; but I still maintain there's an unspoken discussion about rape versus the other horrors in the show that is being danced around.
I agree... Reminds me of the protein supplement company that was berated on Twitter because their billboard had a fit woman on it with the words 'get your beach body ready', and people were offended and accused them of fat shaming.
It's getting to the point where it's impossible to do anything without insulting someone.
MHWilliams
Member
I could see that.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Ehh, don't you think this is something worth mentioning though? If they had just left the consummation implied, that's a significant character moment for everyone in that room that's being completely ignored.
I don't follow. What is being danced around?
excelsiorlef
Member
Beelzebufo
Banned
I guess something about how people are more disgusted by Ramsay having sex with his wife than him flaying Theon or any of the other bad things that happen in this show.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
It's a poor reading of the scene to say that it's more about Theon. Yes, it's partially about him, but that's also the audience reaction and a creative choice to not show it, Ramsey's glee or Sansa's despair and pain. And I agree completely with you. If they showed Sansa's face then, "GoT is exploitative and tasteless" versus whatever else is being written now.
If that's how you chose to see it, so be it.
But you'd be willfully ignoring the season up to this point-- a season in which Sansa realizes she's going to have to wade through shit some more if she wants to come out smelling like roses in the end. She knew what she was getting into. So before we conclude that this scene was gratuitous and unnecessary, why don't we wait to see how this season unfolds?
And again, there are pa-len-ty of ways the writers could have made that scene play out that would have been better for Sansa's character development and that still could have ended with him forcibly taking her.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Yeah, obviously the whole thing is horrible and it's even worse when it actually comes, but Sansa knew this whole thing was coming since the moment she arrived back at Winterfell. That's probably one of the reasons she took so long to say "I do".
Like what? Turning Ramsay into a different character?
??? and?? The murder of Eddard Stark developed Arya. What's the issue with the rape of Sana developing Theon?
I can't believe people are rioting over this. I wasn't even sure Sansa was being de facto raped since they were just married and she didn't visibly resist being taken. I figured she was just... unhappy about the current circumstances. The scene was just so tame - there's so little to become actually desensitized to. I guess Theon's reactions are supposed to be the giveaway?
In any case, I'm getting sick of this outrage culture targeting arts for a platform. Rape happens. Should we stop depicting it or excising it from expression all together, no matter how tastefully depicted, on behalf of feminists?
In any case, I'm getting sick of this outrage culture targeting arts for a platform. Rape happens. Should we stop depicting it or excising it from expression all together, no matter how tastefully depicted, on behalf of feminists?
Beelzebufo
Banned
But this thread is about people unattaching from a fictional universe because they were offended by it.
Is any particular violent scene needed? I could list out a dozen things the show has dealt with and come up with a possible alternative. I don't think that's a good argument against it. Also, having characters act because someone else is done wrong is not 'problematic'. Why do you think it is? Virtually every time it's used you're supposed to be incensed that it happened...it is in no way legitimizing or encouraging or making light of the rape. Do you feel that same way about having a character murdered in order to change a different character? If not, then why?
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