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[royalan]

Yeah, I'm sure people complained, but the reaction now is on a whole different level. And really, Theon has been through more shit than anyone else on the show.

Well, we don't need to play the oppression olympics here.

Theon's torture was some of the most gruesome shit we've seen on the show (and eventually they did take it over-the-top and I did get tired of seeing it), but at the end of the day Theon's torture served a narrative purpose. It was deserved comeuppance for all of his heinous actions up to that point (let's not forget all the people that died in his attempt to take the North for daddy), and it served to introduce Ramsey and establish how truly fucking sadistic he is. A gross as it was, we needed to see some of that to establish these important points.

Sansa's rape, in comparison, accomplishes nothing like this. Tells us nothing new. Introduces no new elements to the show.

 

[Lothar]

While this is all true, I think it's unfair to discount Littlefinger's feelings for Cat. It's basically what motivated him to do everything he does. He honestly tries to protect Ned in court for Cat's sake, but Ned and Joff sort of ruin that.

Hmm... So you don't believe the theory that Littlefinger was the one that convinced Joffrey to behead Ned?

You really think LF was out for Ned's best interests?

 

[ultron87]

Theon scenes showed us exactly why he isn't theon anymore. That wasn't just torture, that was total destruction of a man's psyche and character. Such a dramatic transformation needs explaining.

The books accomplished that with showing almost none of it. Missing the character's inner monologue means showing some of it was probably helpful, but the audience got the picture pretty quickly. You can find plenty of complaints of "this again? really?" during that period of that season.

That said, the violence against Theon is an example of the show properly dealing with a character's trauma. He went through some truly horrible things at Ramsey's hands and his character has been defined by it. No one can say that Theon's torture was shoe horned in or was used as a plot convenience or that it will be forgotten an episode later.

Similarly, they handled the revalation of Cersei having been raped by Robert for years during their marriage in a similarly well written fashion. It defined her character, gave a villain some pathos, and let the audience use this part of her history to figure out the motivations behind her actions.

These elements are both from the books and are pretty good! Now lets look at the two rapes of main characters that weren't in the books and how they were handled:

Dany's first night with Drogo lost the consent that is present in the books. In the moment the scene suggested a specific character for Drogo and told us about how their relationship began, so at least at that seemed like a plot relevant choice when it happened. Of course, after that it proceeds exactly like the books do. The show runners seemed to forget that it happened and it basically never came up again. That makes where things go with Dany and Drogo in the show feel a little off and adds some unfortunate undertones, but people let it go because "hey, they are new at this adaptation thing".

Then we have the Cersei and Jaime scene in the sept. Watching it when it happens one thinks this is a pretty big deal for both characters. It's a bad turn for Jaime, certainly, and Cersei could be pretty harshly affected by this betrayal by the love of her life. Of course we'd find out afterwards that whole thing gets thrown under the rug and has had no bearing on their ongoing relationship. Apparently it was never intended to be non-consensual, but someone just watching the show would just see that Cersei sure got over that rape pretty fast so it probably wasn't a big deal.

This is why no one is particularly confident that another invented rape or other horrible trauma is going to be handled and followed up on very well. So that makes the fact that people at the show, who have a bad track record with this, sat down and made the decision that Sansa was going to get raped this season feel like a pretty poor decision.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Hmm... So you don't believe the theory that Littlefinger was the one that convinced Joffrey to behead Ned?

You really think LF was out for Ned's best interests?

Oh yeah, definitely. I'm pretty sure if Littlefinger tried to tell Joff to behead Ned Joff would do something different anyway. Dudes a shitty little wildcard. Cat also made him promise to help Ned, and I think it's weird that he'd break that promise, even if he probably hates Ned in the first place. He gives him good advice the whole time though, even though Ned's constantly insulting and threatening him! If Ned had been sent to the wall he'd be out of the picture and Petyr could be like "I did all I could Cat, Ned's alive and you're family is safe. let's make out" or something lol.

And yeah he's the one who causes the Starks and Lannisters to fight in the first place, but from the second Cat arrives in KL he's there to make sure she stays safe.

I mean we'll see what Petyr does in the future, but he's either a lost man deeply in love, or just a perverted psychopath. I think ones more interesting than the other

 

[excelsiorlef]

The books accomplished that with showing almost none of it. Missing the character's inner monologue means showing some of it was probably helpful, but the audience got the picture pretty quickly. You can find plenty of complaints of "this again? really?" during that period of that season.

That said, the violence against Theon is an example of the show properly dealing with a character's trauma. He went through some truly horrible things at Ramsey's hands and his character has been defined by it. No one can say that Theon's torture was shoe horned in or was used as a plot convenience or that it will be forgotten an episode later.

Similarly, they handled the revalation of Cersei having been raped by Robert for years during their marriage in a similarly well written fashion. It defined her character, gave a villain some pathos, and let the audience use this part of her history to figure out the motivations behind her actions.

These elements are both from the books and are pretty good! Now lets look at the two rapes of main characters that weren't in the books and how they were handled:

Dany's first night with Drogo lost the consent that is present in the books. In the moment the scene suggested a specific character for Drogo and told us about how their relationship began, so at least at that seemed like a plot relevant choice when it happened. Of course, after that it proceeds exactly like the books do. The show runners seemed to forget that it happened and it basically never came up again. That makes where things go with Dany and Drogo in the show feel a little off and adds some unfortunate undertones, but people let it go because "hey, they are new at this adaptation thing".

Then we have the Cersei and Jaime scene in the sept. Watching it when it happens one thinks this is a pretty big deal for both characters. It's a bad turn for Jaime, certainly, and Cersei could be pretty harshly affected by this betrayal by the love of her life. Of course we'd find out afterwards that whole thing gets thrown under the rug and has had no bearing on their ongoing relationship. Apparently it was never intended to be non-consensual, but someone just watching the show would just see that Cersei sure got over that rape pretty fast so it probably wasn't a big deal.

This is why no one is particularly confident that another invented rape or other horrible trauma is going to be handled and followed up on very well. So that makes the fact that people at the show, who have a bad track record with this, sat down and made the decision that Sansa was going to get raped this season feel like a pretty poor decision.

Jesus 3 brand new not in the book rapes in what 2-3 years?

 

[Beelzebufo]

Jesus 3 brand new not in the book rapes in what 2-3 years?

Well, one. And that one happened in the books but was more consensual. Sansa in the books was someone else, and it was much worse, but it was the same situation.

 

[Dude Abides]

You could see this coming a mile away. It would have been more interesting if she'd been a reluctant but willing participant for her own purposes.

 

[hamboner]

Do we really consider that Cersei and Jaime scene rape? They banged in a tower while visiting Winterfell with the King. Later, Cersei forced herself on Jaime, he initially resists, and they banged on that table right after talking to their dad. Later still Jaime forced himself on Cersei, she initially resists, and they banged at their sons funeral. In the context of their previously depicted sexual encounters, they are sexual thrill seekers and they get off on having risky, incestuous sex at wildly inappropriate times.

Yes we really do. Cersei says "no" and "don't" repeatedly, begs Jaime to stop several times, and the scene ends on weeping "it isn't right," while Jaime grunts "I don't care."

How is that not rape? Their previous sexual experiences don't suddenly disqualify her nonconsent in that instance.

 

[Speevy]

Game of Thrones shoots in locations across the world. Some cast members may not even meet the actors whose characters are being raped.

 

[devilhawk]

Last I checked, Game of Thrones is a show about war.

ASOIAF is about sex more than war. Planning and consummating marriage alliances is gone into far greater detail and has far greater importance than the battles. Many of the battles are glossed over.

 

[D1renegade]

"You know Ellie, we really are in the era of Internet outrage".

Our priorities are so messed up.,,

 

[hamchan]

Do we really consider that Cersei and Jaime scene rape? They banged in a tower while visiting Winterfell with the King. Later, Cersei forced herself on Jaime, he initially resists, and they banged on that table right after talking to their dad. Later still Jaime forced himself on Cersei, she initially resists, and they banged at their sons funeral. In the context of their previously depicted sexual encounters, they are sexual thrill seekers and they get off on having risky, incestuous sex at wildly inappropriate times.

Sure seemed like rape to me.

 

[Prototype]

It's a fantasy show, set in a fantasy world where shit like that happens all the time. While I felt bad for the character of Sansa, it's just that, a character. Nothing really happened here.

If we artists can't be free to create whatever they want, then what's the point in creating anything? It's a slippery slope of censorship.

Doesn't matter really anyway, all this will do is make the show even more popular.

 

[a Master Ninja]

Yes we really do. Cersei says "no" and "don't" repeatedly, begs Jaime to stop several times, and the scene ends on weeping "it isn't right," while Jaime grunts "I don't care."

How is that not rape? Their previous sexual experiences don't suddenly disqualify her nonconsent in that instance.

A lot of the dialog is a reversal of the table sex scene. Jaime tries to discourage Cersei saying it isn't appropriate and "someone will walk in" and then Cersei grunts "I don't care."

The show gives me the impression that this is their "thing", as weird as it is.

Sure seemed like rape to me.

I don't disagree with this.

 

[Brakke]

If we artists can't be free to create whatever they want, then what's the point in creating anything? It's a slippery slope of censorship.

nobody's talking about censorship >.<

 

[Speevy]

A lot of the dialog is a reversal of the table sex scene. Jaime tries to discourage Cersei saying it isn't appropriate and "someone will walk in" and then Cersei grunts "I don't care."

The show gives me the impression that this is their "thing", as weird as it is.

D and D called it rape. They straight up called it rape.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Well, one. And that one happened in the books but was more consensual. Sansa in the books was someone else, and it was much worse, but it was the same situation.

So 3.
Making something less consensual aka not consensual = adding rape.
Applying the rape scenario of a different character from the book to Sansa still makes it a new rape

 

[ultron87]

If we artists can't be free to create whatever they want, then what's the point in creating anything? It's a slippery slope of censorship.

Creators are free to create. Everyone else is free to criticize those creations in any manner they deem fit.

 

[Cybit]

nobody's talking about censorship >.<

You missed several posters earlier in the thread who would "support legislation to ban rape in TV or movies".

 

[a Master Ninja]

D and D called it rape. They straight up called it rape.

I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to, but if your are saying the authorial intent was that the Jaime/Cersei sex scene was an unambiguous rape then I guess it accomplished its mission well enough because the majority here clearly read it as such.

 

[Wiktor]

Then again, no rape at all in TV would be fantastic. Hell, I would legit support legislation banning onscreen rape. Even implied rape. But the books and show are supposed to portray a shitty world, where shitty things happen for shitty reasons. Rape happens in our shitty world, and the fake one. What will be the consequences be for the characters in the episodes to come? Why not wait a few more episodes to find out?

This is actually more disturbing that the rape scene itself.

 

[Veelk]

I haven't seen that scene as I am mainly a book reader, but as far as the Jaime and Cersei thing goes, rape fetishes are tricky to depict because the "scene" will be ruined if there is constant confirmation for consent. It is believable that it might just be a thing that's understood by both parties but it might also have been a genuine rape that turned consensual midway (which is still bad but might not be viewed that way by either of the characters participating in the act). It's still uncomfortable for the viewer, but it's hard to frame as a simple wrong that a character did in those circumstances or even if you do, hard to reconcile it with a society structure that is ultimately alien to our modern sensibilities. As Cersei demonstrates, she just moves on from it, so it's hard to tell if this is the character realizing a fetish, or them rationalizing the episode so that it is less traumatic, or an honest writer mishandling, and it could even be a combination of the three.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

nobody's talking about censorship >.<

I think they were talking about this:

People have said they were "done" with this show since

Spoiler

Ned Stark bit it

spoiler: they aren't. silly people thinking they can stop watching entertaining tv. there is no "last straw." Mary Sue and the rest will be back next season

My take on the scene? I was dreading it the whole season, but I thought it was going to be a lot worse. I thought they were going to show it onscreen and make it even more trivial then it was. I'll see what the repercussions are next episode before I decide what I think.

Then again, no rape at all in TV would be fantastic. Hell, I would legit support legislation banning onscreen rape. Even implied rape. But the books and show are supposed to portray a shitty world, where shitty things happen for shitty reasons. Rape happens in our shitty world, and the fake one. What will be the consequences be for the characters in the episodes to come? Why not wait a few more episodes to find out?

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think they were talking about this:

That's legit all of one person in this thread.

You missed several posters earlier in the thread who would "support legislation to ban rape in TV or movies".

And by several you mean that there was on one and only one who mentioned legislation to ban rape scenes.

 

[devilhawk]

That's legit all of one person in this thread.

A poster is not no one.

 

[TAJ]

Do we really consider that Cersei and Jaime scene rape? They banged in a tower while visiting Winterfell with the King. Later, Cersei forced herself on Jaime, he initially resists, and they banged on that table right after talking to their dad. Later still Jaime forced himself on Cersei, she initially resists, and they banged at their sons funeral. In the context of their previously depicted sexual encounters, they are sexual thrill seekers and they get off on having risky, incestuous sex at wildly inappropriate times.

Watching it I thought it was just bad acting making it rapey in an unintended way. Looking at the showrunners' comments made me realize that it was incompetent direction.
EDIT: I haven't seen them quoted, only paraphrased. Either the people relaying that info severely misinterpreted what they said, or Speevy did.

 

[excelsiorlef]

A poster is not no one.

In the grand scheme of things yeah it kinda is. I mean as an exercise in pedantry sure, but when 99.9% of the conversation is not talking about censorship? Saying no one is saying that is a valid statement in response to a bunch of hyperbolic statements from some folk who are trying to paint what that one person said as being what everyone is saying.

 

[devilhawk]

In the grand scheme of things yeah it kinda is. I mean as an exercise in pedantry sure, but when 99.9% of the conversation is not talking about censorship? Saying no one is saying that is a valid statement in response to a bunch of hyperbolic statements from some folk who are trying to paint what that one person said as being what everyone is saying.

omg I'm just ripping off character lines.

 

[Entryhazard]

Villains commit heinous acts, news at 11

 

[excelsiorlef]

omg I'm just ripping off character lines.

Ok

 

[H.Protagonist]

You could see this coming a mile away. It would have been more interesting if she'd been a reluctant but willing participant for her own purposes.

If they'd just given her a single face shot of gritted-teeth determination so that we could believe she was enduring it more for her own ends, I think it would have gone better. As it was, it seemed a little too passive to fall into the agency category for her character.

That said, I'm not sure how else they could have better portrayed this. They didn't glorify it, they gave it due horror through Theon's eyes, and it was pretty much the realistic outcome of that marriage. Of many marriages back then. GoT doesn't gloss over the nastiness of that age, that's for sure.

I do wish Sansa would stop letting herself be manipulated by Littlefinger, but I suppose even that can be considered realistic. It's unsatisfying to see a character's progression set back like that, but we'll see how they handle the rest.

 

[hateradio]

[...] and it was pretty much the realistic outcome of that marriage. Of many marriages back then. GoT doesn't gloss over the nastiness of that age, that's for sure.

Even though that is a fictional world, it's crazy that even in the US a man could not be accused of rape when the it was within a marriage. :/

 

[GameAddict411]

Considering everything that happened in Games of Thrones so far if you are shocked by this you really haven't paid attention. Awful, terrible, vile things are happening constantly and usually to good people. It's brutal. It's uncompromising and it doesn't shy away at all from anything in the slightest.

It's what makes so many tune in really.

This^^^, I just finished watching the episode a few minutes ago, and the moment I heard about the wedding, I knew he was going to rape her. He is a sick fuck.

 

[KingSnake]

I think this adds nothing to the show. Sansa's situation (and the marriage) was anyhow a bad one (and the lunch scene from the previous episode was a really great one to picture that), there was no need to invent a rape on top of the story to make it more clear or whatever. Plus, Sansa as a character was building up in a different way and this seems now like a huge step back. I think her decision to "play the game" and the way sex (in an unwanted marriage) could have played in this was way more interesting than getting Sansa back in the poor victim to another Joffrey scheme.

I'm not outraged by the rape per se, as this is a series where horrible things happen every time, but I'm disappointed in using it as a cheap plot.

 

[Metroxed]

I really lol at the people who say "it accomplishes nothing". How could we possibly know? It was the LAST thing that happened during the LAST episode aired. Perhaps we should wait a week or two before saying that.

 

[Burgess_101]

Just pathetic, if he wants pointless shit in there he can put it in. It wasn't even pointless, it was the last thing that happened. Do people sympathise with the girl? Then mission accomplished.

 

[someday]

Wait, how does Ramsay consummating his marriage not make narrative sense?

Is that really how you saw that scene? Ramsay consummating his marriage? You didn't see that as Ramsay raping his wife?

The quote about how 3 of the female main characters have been raped in this show is fucked. Especially since what? 2 of them aren't in the books?

Yeah, again, this is what bothers me. Three main female characters have now been raped in this show, and none of this is based on the source material. It was all added in by the showrunners. Dany, Cercei, and Sansa weren't raped in the books but for some fucked up reason, they are all raped in the show. There is something wrong with this.

Edit - and to add to this, Dany and Cercei are the exact same characters in the books personality-wise. Raping them didn't change them in any way. If anything I was more impressed with a young Dany and Drogo starting their relationship on equal footing. It's because of this that I can't see how raping Sansa will make her character "stronger" or whatever now. She's been through shit already. Being raped is simply the last awful thing that could happen to her and just serves to make the audience feel...something.

And anyone who didn't realize how bad Ramsay was simply hasn't been paying attention. Who really needed this scene to show again how fucked up this guy is?

 

[Alex_Mexico]

The quote about how 3 of the female main characters have been raped in this show is fucked. Especially since what? 2 of them aren't in the books?

Make that 3. Out of these 3 female main characters being raped in the show exactly zero of them get raped in the books.

It's almost as if HBO had a sensationalization quota they needed to fill or something.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Is that really how you saw that scene? Ramsay consummating his marriage? You didn't see that as Ramsay raping his wife?

Yeah, again, this is what bothers me. Three main female characters have now been raped in this show, and none of this is based on the source material. It was all added in by the showrunners. Dany, Cercei, and Sansa weren't raped in the books but for some fucked up reason, they are all raped in the show. There is something wrong with this.

Edit - and to add to this, Dany and Cercei are the exact same characters in the books personality-wise. Raping them didn't change them in any way. If anything I was more impressed with a young Dany and Drogo starting their relationship on equal footing. It's because of this that I can't see how raping Sansa will make her character "stronger" or whatever now. She's been through shit already. Being raped is simply the last awful thing that could happen to her and just serves to make the audience feel...something.

And anyone who didn't realize how bad Ramsay was simply hasn't been paying attention. Who really needed this scene to show again how fucked up this guy is?

I'm beginning to think the only guys who needed this pointless scene were HBO execs. Thinking they have a controversy/sexual violence quota to fill is the only thing that makes sense at this point.

 

[Brakke]

Yeah, again, this is what bothers me. Three main female characters have now been raped in this show, and none of this is based on the source material. It was all added in by the showrunners. Dany, Cercei, and Sansa weren't raped in the books but for some fucked up reason, they are all raped in the show. There is something wrong with this.

Cersei was raped repeatedly in the books, just "off-screen". She never went willingly to Robert Baratheon's bed.

Dany was probably sexually assaulted by Viserys before the action of the books. Also her consummation with Drogo -- and several subsequent encounters -- are definitely rape-y. She thinks she wants it but 1) she's a dumb idiot kid, 2) she probably couldn't refuse Drogo if she tried. That one's kind of complicated because it ultimately "works out" but there's always an uncomfortable undercurrent of Stockholm Syndrome sort of thing going on. The politics in the books are complicated in similar way as they are in the show. In the books she expresses more clear ~enthusiasm for sex with Drogo early on in their relationship, so that's less rape-y than the show, but she's also like twelve in the books so that's way more rape-y than the show.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I think this adds nothing to the show. Sansa's situation (and the marriage) was anyhow a bad one (and the lunch scene from the previous episode was a really great one to picture that), there was no need to invent a rape on top of the story to make it more clear or whatever. Plus, Sansa as a character was building up in a different way and this seems now like a huge step back. I think her decision to "play the game" and the way sex (in an unwanted marriage) could have played in this was way more interesting than getting Sansa back in the poor victim to another Joffrey scheme.

I'm not outraged by the rape per se, as this is a series where horrible things happen every time, but I'm disappointed in using it as a cheap plot.

I disagree, I think it's a key moment for Theon and an improvement upon his storyline from the books. Up until this point, Ramsay's torture and destruction of Theon has been by taking away everything that Theon valued from an egoistic perspective - his pride, his dignity, his inheritance, his masculinity, his body. This is the first point when Ramsay has defiled (literally) someone that Theon valued in their own sake. They did grow up together, at one point Sansa was like a sister to Theon. This is an emotional catalyst for Theon to break from the chains of Reek Ramsay has imposed upon him.

Of course, you can still ask whether it is appropriate to use the rape of Sansa as a means to an end in developing Theon's plot, but as it stands I think this particular scene was much more appropriate than Dany/Drogho, which *genuinely* had no point whatsoever.

 

[someday]

Cersei was raped repeatedly in the books, just "off-screen". She never went willingly to Robert Baratheon's bed.

Dany was probably sexually assaulted by Viserys before the action of the books. Also her consummation with Drogo -- and several subsequent encounters -- are definitely rape-y. She thinks she wants it but 1) she's a dumb idiot kid, 2) she probably couldn't refuse Drogo if she tried. That one's kind of complicated because it ultimately "works out" but there's always an uncomfortable undercurrent of Stockholm Syndrome sort of thing going on. The politics in the books are complicated in similar way as they are in the show. In the books she expresses more clear ~enthusiasm for sex with Drogo early on in their relationship, so that's less rape-y than the show, but she's also like twelve in the books so that's way more rape-y than the show.

I'm going to ignore the age thing only because there is no discussion if we don't. Many of these characters are children in the books and yeah, that's messed up.


You are making an assumption about Dany and Viserys based on what? I'm not saying it absolutely didn't happen but I don't see how that's relevant here. Dany's consummation with Drogo took great pains to show us that she had some agency. She was fully sexually excited and a willing partner at that moment. GRRM spends time showing us Dany going from a nervous bride to a willing participate BEFORE Drogo fucks her. And we see nothing after that moment that says the sex they had was problematic. This is a girl married to a stranger, a "barbarian" if you will, and she isn't raped. Anyone saying that rape is a part of married life in Martin's world is wrong. Plenty of women have consensual sex with their lovers in asoiaf. Fewer of them have it in GoT.

As for Cercei, I wad referring to the scene with Jamie. Book Jamie didn't rape but for some reason show Jamie does.

Also I think there is a huge difference between a woman unexcited about sex with a husband she doesn't love and what happened to Sansa. They aren't on the same level at all. Plenty of women, even today, have unenthusiastic sex with their husbands. This was different.

 

[MarkMclovin]

Didn't mind the scene really. I just hope it's a build up to Theon getting his own back.

This season though has been boring as fuck.

 

[Faddy]

Is that really how you saw that scene? Ramsay consummating his marriage? You didn't see that as Ramsay raping his wife?

Yeah, again, this is what bothers me. Three main female characters have now been raped in this show, and none of this is based on the source material. It was all added in by the showrunners. Dany, Cercei, and Sansa weren't raped in the books but for some fucked up reason, they are all raped in the show. There is something wrong with this.

Edit - and to add to this, Dany and Cercei are the exact same characters in the books personality-wise. Raping them didn't change them in any way. If anything I was more impressed with a young Dany and Drogo starting their relationship on equal footing. It's because of this that I can't see how raping Sansa will make her character "stronger" or whatever now. She's been through shit already. Being raped is simply the last awful thing that could happen to her and just serves to make the audience feel...something.

And anyone who didn't realize how bad Ramsay was simply hasn't been paying attention. Who really needed this scene to show again how fucked up this guy is?

Dany was raped in the books, Drogo was nice enough on the wedding night (grooming a 13 yr old) but after that he rails her every night without consent driving her to contemplate suicide. It is a harsh storyline.

Cersei was raped in the books as well. She talks about Robert taking his rights, coming to her chamber drunk and having his way.

 

[someday]

Dany was raped in the books, Drogo was nice enough on the wedding night (grooming a 13 yr old) but after that he rails her every night without consent driving her to contemplate suicide. It is a harsh storyline.

Cersei was raped in the books as well. She talks about Robert taking his rights, coming to her chamber drunk and having his way.

Hmm, well, I apparently blocked that from my mind. I oniy remember the wedding night for Dany. As for Cercei, I admit I didnt thiink much of it. I realized she wasn't happy with Robert but she was fucking her brother on the side. It semed a wash.

I guess I was referring to specific scenes that differed (Dany wedding night, Cercei and Jamie in the sept, Sansa not married to Ramsay). As a whole I still feel that the books paint a harsh world, and women are certainly a commodity, but even Martin is less likely to have his main female characters raped for the sake of a scene. He tries to give them agency even when it would be easier to write them without it.

Edit- and I'm not a book purist. I only read the books after season 3 and I blasted through them. I don't want it to seem like I hate every change in the show. In fact, I have mostly loved what the show has done and appreciate their interpretation.

 

[mokeyjoe]

I haven't seen that scene as I am mainly a book reader, but as far as the Jaime and Cersei thing goes, rape fetishes are tricky to depict because the "scene" will be ruined if there is constant confirmation for consent. It is believable that it might just be a thing that's understood by both parties but it might also have been a genuine rape that turned consensual midway (which is still bad but might not be viewed that way by either of the characters participating in the act). It's still uncomfortable for the viewer, but it's hard to frame as a simple wrong that a character did in those circumstances or even if you do, hard to reconcile it with a society structure that is ultimately alien to our modern sensibilities. As Cersei demonstrates, she just moves on from it, so it's hard to tell if this is the character realizing a fetish, or them rationalizing the episode so that it is less traumatic, or an honest writer mishandling, and it could even be a combination of the three.

That scene reminded me a bit of the Deckard/Rachel scene in Bladerunner. I suppose it's open to interpretation based on an understanding of the characters.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

It's game of thrones. Get over it people. Dudes are getting their heads crushed bare handed, plenty of villages are raped and pillaged and death is everywhere.

Sure it's an upsetting scene, but any reader of the book could easily tell you they're setting something up that will be gratifying for the viewer and a cathartic release for all the evil Sansa has had to endure.

It's a show. You don't like it, stop watching it.

But that's exactly what's happening here's and shoehorning "it's just a show, you know what you paid for, it's game of thrones", etc...

When this scene never happened in the book is the issue. It's was completely unnecessary.

I'm one of those folks that was turned off. Rape in other movies or shows I watched have never really affected me until this episode and I'm into dark gritty story plots with extreme violence and brutality. Even when it happened to daenarys it wasn't amazing but her situation was different. Her man wasn't a sadist psychotic person who blantly got off to shit like that.

This is and we already know that about this dude so what's the point of pushing it further with this rape scene? It was uneccessary and very uncomfortable.

I think I'm done too. Maybe not officially but idk, that really turned me off a lot. And part of me knew it was coming.

 

[mokeyjoe]

But that's exactly what's happening here's and shoehorning "it's just a show, you know what you paid for, it's game of thrones", etc...

When this scene never happened in the book is the issue. It's was completely unnecessary.

I'm one of those folks that was turned off. Rape in other movies or shows I watched have never really affected me until this episode and I'm into dark gritty story plots with extreme violence and brutality. Even when it happened to daenarys it wasn't amazing but her situation was different. Her man wasn't a sadist psychotic person who blantly got off to shit like that.

This is and we already know that about this dude so what's the point of pushing it further with this rape scene? It was uneccessary and very uncomfortable.

I think I'm done too.

I think, when it comes down to it, Drogo was in fact pretty nasty according to most standards. I also think 'extreme violence and brutality' should be uncomfortable to watch. It's nice to know people aren't completely desensitized. Also that, for all the graphic schlock in the show, it's a decidedly non-explicit scene which draws such a response.

 

[Metroxed]

George R. R. Martin on the issue of rape:

"(...) rape and sexual violence have been a part of every war ever fought, from the ancient Sumerians to our present day... To omit them from a narrative centered on war and power would have been fundamentally false and dishonest, and would have undermined one of the themes of the books: that the true horrors of human history derive not from orcs and Dark Lords, but from ourselves."

 

[RoKKeR]

Put me in the camp of this going too far. Scene should have ended with Bolton telling Reek to stay, we get what this character about and can easily jump to conclusions without having it be forced. I felt very uneasy after watching the episode.