More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)
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Oo good point. Goes more to my point about one of GRRM's main points with the series.
It could be a) she was prepared, but not that prepared, or b) she deliberately gave Ramsay that satisfaction because it was her assessing the situation and realizing the best way to gain control over Ramsay is to give him what he wants, even if it's screwed up as hell right now. Use that to eventually seduce him and start using him to rebuild her power base.
The other option is that in TWoW, LF screws Sansa over by marrying her to another crazy mofo, and the producers, knowing this, moved it up into this season and simplified things in terms of characters.
Damerman
Member
i agree, but I cringe everytime i think of jamie showing up in the water gardens and calling out to Myrcella...
Aaah, that's true. Goes with Stannis being a stickler for rules above all else.
Cause she's a human being? I don't mean that to be pedantic, I mean that maybe we're forgetting that people can be strong sometimes, weak other times and a shit load of other things that aren't expected. I think often times when sexual abuse or violence against women is portrayed in fiction, we get this... Powerful woman who fights back, or is stoic, or in some way gains something or is saved in the last moment. I think that maybe we've come to expect that sometimes.
I actually thought that there was a part that made rape out to be acceptable... when Drogo first weds Daenerys, he is raping her at the beginning. She later falls in love with him and starts playing a more active role in the sex, dedicating herself to him and the Dothraki.. Was this not basically saying it's okay to rape your wife, because if she's a good wife then she'll eventually love you and dedicate herself to you and your friends? Weird how the Sansa scene is the one that gets the flak.
The Silver
Member
Well just because she was prepared doesn't mean it wasn't going to hurt, she's still a 15 year old virgin.
Most importantly the reason she cracked is because she never saw the curveball of Theon staying there to watch, that's the moment her stoic demeanor falters. Sansa steeled herself to handle the pain and shame of what Ramsey was going to do but she never considered that Theon, someone so close to her and someone she hates so much would be made to witness her lowest moment.
Sansa's becoming more and more of a tough girl, but Ramsey is still too damn good at what he does, she(and hardly anyone else really) could never have prepared for someone as sadistic and evil as Ramsey.
Damerman
Member
Now that would have been a great scene.
why you gotta put me on blast like that...
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, this is the way I feel. Honestly, the Daenerys/Drogo scenes in the book are absolutely awful, and I was relieved that the show actually restructured them so that Danaerys plays a less passive role. Seeing the show being criticized for being worse than the books on this issue just feels like being in bizarro-world.
None of the scenes are saying rape is okay, anyone getting this message is just looking for a fight. Dany falling in love was due to her character and her situation. Drogo may of raped her, but he did love her...but he was just a stupid barbarian. He treated way better than anyone had in her whole life, so she was drawn to him.
A lot of husbands that rape their wives are in love with said wives.
Damerman
Member
this is the most convincing argument for this scene, even though I'm not fully convinced. That scene and who it happens to and why it happens(presumptuously, since i read the book) makes this a very annoying scene.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
That got plenty of talk, too. Pretty much everything on this show where everyone is like "PEOPLE DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING WHEN THIS HAPPENED IN EARLIER SEASONS" was talked about just like this.
But these people live in a society that knows better, Drogo doesn't. A dumb barbarian isn't going to be the one advancing social equality.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Yo, people are just talking about their own interpretations. It's going to be different than yours. No need to dismiss another opinion as looking for a fight just because you saw it your own way.
Sorry, I just find it worrying that just because there's a rape scene in fiction that some people might think the writer's are trying to send a message that rape is okay.
It wasn't gratuitous at all. It wasn't for shock value. It's exactly what we knew would happen and it's the terrible culmination of Sansa's situation.
Just like with Ned. We know it's coming. It's dreadful. You hope some eleventh-hour miracle is coming. You hope for some Hollywood saviour to jump out of the shadows and save his life. But no. This is Westeros and bad things happen to good people.
Were people disgusted? Were people uncomfortable? You were supposed to feel disgusted. You were invested in the characters and had to witness them going through something terrible.
We've had genital mutilation, torture, brainwashing, violence, child killings, gore, corruption, injustice, and more beheadings than you can count. When the pilot episode includes a rape scene, incest, and the attempted murder of a child, you should know that the world of Game of Thrones is not a nice place.
Just like with Ned. We know it's coming. It's dreadful. You hope some eleventh-hour miracle is coming. You hope for some Hollywood saviour to jump out of the shadows and save his life. But no. This is Westeros and bad things happen to good people.
Were people disgusted? Were people uncomfortable? You were supposed to feel disgusted. You were invested in the characters and had to witness them going through something terrible.
We've had genital mutilation, torture, brainwashing, violence, child killings, gore, corruption, injustice, and more beheadings than you can count. When the pilot episode includes a rape scene, incest, and the attempted murder of a child, you should know that the world of Game of Thrones is not a nice place.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Also let's give it up for the dude who plays Ramsey. Never thought the sympathetic nerd from the Misfits and the aloof neighbor on Vicious could be this monstrous.
It's really the only scene I remember in GOT where I felt like the rape was looked upon as acceptable... I mean the victim falling in love with her rapist and dedicating herself to him? Not acceptable even though they just married. If Daenerys had killed Drogo to get of the marriage, that would have been better.
Sansa's rape never had anything in it to make you think that anyone was accepting it except of course for Ramsay.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's entirely possible. Give the thought a chance before dismissing it entirely. People are already on D+D for their statements that denied that what happened to Cersei was rape.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Him and Alfie Allen are the two best actors in Game of Thrones, by a long way.
Shouldn't we wait till the rest of the season plays out to see if the show will finally deliver on the aftermath of something so awful?
I understand that the show has a poor track record of this shit, but this could all be premature bitching for what might actually be a sign of improvement for the show.
I understand that the show has a poor track record of this shit, but this could all be premature bitching for what might actually be a sign of improvement for the show.
WrenchNinja
Member
People shit on the Dorne plot line when it was introduced and lo and behold, it continues to be shit. I don't really get why this story deserves to have a wait and see approach. It's been pretty stupid since the plan was revealed.
Does anyone remember this scene? It's actually more graphic than what happens to Sansa Stark.
Janos Slynt grabs a newborn baby and cuts its throat, then holds it by the leg as he goes around drowning and stabbing children.
That showed how far they were going to make a political move of eliminating the bastards of the King. It showed that they were eliminating all bastards.
Contrast with forced intercourse between a known sadist and a professional victim.
My major problem with this is that, because of the glacial pace of the season, it was a huge waste of time. We knew how far he'd probably go and these implications were obvious as soon as she was promised to Ramsay.
Damerman
Member
it's shittiness began as soon as they cut
arianne
"Story progression" seems a nebulous thing but I suppose your quoting is technically fair. Though in leaving out that last sentence and not linking, one just cruising through the thread could assume that Concepcion is pleased as punch about the whole affair and that's simply not an accurate representation.
Consummation of marriage is one of the most important aspects of Westeros. The books go into massive details on this alone.
Us knowing that Sansa is possibly pregnant is incredibly important. Far more important than killing some bastards.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Ramsey's absence of satisfaction is a dangerous thing in of itself. Actually rather consistent give how long she had to deal with Joffrey.
GameGuru59
Banned
Exactly. You can't win with these people. In the book, the repeated rape of Danny is treated as something that could actually happen in the real world (initially, the victim wants to commit suicide, while later the pain she experiences resolves into a kind of Stockholm syndrome), whereas the show creates some sort of unlikely narrative where Danny somehow takes control of her captor through sex. If the show were adapted directly from the text, the outcry would be much greater because people would claim that the show was sadistic for allowing audiences to contemplate the repeated rape of a 13 yo girl. Instead, we got a version where everything was toned down, and a more fantastic story was created than the more realistic one (a realistic story that yes, did explore the damage rape victims experience), that allows the victim to turn the tables on her oppressor and take control of her life.
Yet people are still complaining. The answer is that this show is simply not for you. Change the channel. But don't accuse people of shitty writing just because its not to your taste.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
Ramsay is just Roose without highborn sensibilities.
Again and for the last time until I write out in detail how they could have finished the last episode with the same information better conveyed - there is nothing about the rape scene that couldn't be conveyed as effectively through dialogue other than the tension, discomfort, and violence. All of those could be conveyed in dialogue, but not felt as keenly. Why feeling that is necessary to the political motions of the story is beyond me.
The books like to focus on the effects of sexual and other violence rather than relishing in them. Book stuff:
While I may not think these were always ideal, GRRM focused on what the worst things did to people AFTER the deed.
Theon's torture is skipped. The book picks up after he's completely broken and tamed. Jeyne's rape doesn't occur in the pages, as the chapter ends right before it starts
vas_a_morir
Banned
Yeah, apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Roose, a man who murdered his king cowardly at a wedding... just disgraceful.
BTW, was Robb named after Robert Baratheon?
TheChewyWaffles
Member
So could have Stark's beheading. The medium is television, after all. You show stuff on TV.
I love that both groups' plans involved going to the gardens in the middle of the afternoon and kidnapping the girl. Just terrible.
I suppose it depends on the cock merchant.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
Don't forget raping Ramsay's mother on a whim after murdering her husband. Boltons are straight animals.
I don't think Robb came from Robert. Could be wrong, though.
vas_a_morir
Banned
Look at their fucking flag, for God's sake. You know what my family's crest looked like? 3 small birds in a diagonal line... sure not a skinned man on a cross.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Sounds like books might me more up your alley.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Show, don't tell. One of the few rules of storytelling. The whole point of the seen is for you to feel uncomfortable. What is a story without emotion? Just soulless information.
Tesseract
Banned
i love how this show screws with people's expectations by twisting and breaking cliches - it's total chaos
reminds me of bobby mcferrin demonstrating the power of expectation
:58 in, that's the sauce
reminds me of bobby mcferrin demonstrating the power of expectation
:58 in, that's the sauce
What the fuck are you talking about? Did you even read the thread? The reason this is being debated is because it doesn't serve the plot or the character development in any meaningful way. Its a depiction of rape for the sake of it.
At BEST the writers are probably using rape of a woman as a catalyst for a male's character development which is as shitty as tropes get.
It's not hard to just think sometimes. Try to understand WHY people are reacting differently to this than they do to some of the other events on the show.
If you disagree that's fine. But the whole "other violence is fine but rape is not huhuh?" dismissal is stupid.
Really dislike when rape is compared to murder. It's an entirely different kind of violence that I think as culture we're starting to understand the weight of.
It serves the plot and character development. Sansa Stark lost her virginity. She was also raped by a sick man. She now has to exist within this harsh world, and make plans to survive or possibly end up like one of Ramsay's hunts.
Whether we like the scene, it definitely was a big event in Sansa's life. It's not like they're going to pretend it never happened.
I'm sorry but I am not buying this. Regardless of whether or not what YOU wanted to happen it clearly is going to advance the plot and the character development of Sansa. Maybe you didn't like the direction which is fine.
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