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[Speevy]

This thread seems loaded with folks who either don't watch the show or don't know the story.

Let me say it once again so everyone understands.

Sansa married Ramsay Bolton. That's the plot. Instead of being a gentle lover for a first-timer, he brutally rapes his new wife.

1) He was always going to have sex with her. That's what men and women do.
2) He is an insane psycho killer who tortures people, flays people, and feeds women to dogs. Making him a good guy suddenly because Sansa is sweet and innocent would be totally out of character.
3) I don't think the rape was necessary for Sansa's plot, but it definitely propelled it forward. It gave her some reason to hate not only Roose, who probably won't feature in many scenes with her (her brother's killer), but also Ramsay now that he has done something to her. Why would she blame a perfectly nice, gentlemanly Ramsay for the actions of his father? We already saw her treat Tyrion with courtesy despite her disdain for Joffrey.


Maybe the whole show has gone to shit, but you guys have to give this season a chance to finish before passing final judgment on what this scene means in the greater scheme of the story.

 

[ultron87]

The fact that the plot went to a place is not a justification for the plot going to that place. Stories are written, they don't propel themselves entirely by their own momentum.

 

[Speevy]

The fact that the plot went to a place is not a justification for the plot going to that place. Stories are written, they don't propel themselves entirely by their own momentum.

Name at least three things that could have possibly happened following Sansa's wedding to Ramsay Bolton instead of what actually happened.

 

[ultron87]

They didn't have to have her get married to him, they chose to do that.

 

[stufte]

Ramsay is bad. Ramsay does bad things.

Rape is bad. Ramsay rapes.

I'm not entirely sure why everyone is freaking out about the fictional, off-screen portrayal of someone bad doing something bad to another character in a show about bad shit happening to everyone.

And who cares if it turns out to be a trope? Why is it that big a deal if it ends up motivating a male character to act? Quit putting every female character on a goddamn untouchable pedestal.

This serves perfectly to burn a searing hatred of Ramsay into the viewers (and characters) eyes so that when he (probably) ends up meeting his final fate, it'll be a goddamn victory for everyone.

 

[many places]

^
Asshole probably sells it for 30 bucks too.

lol

 

[Speevy]

They didn't have to have her get married to him, they chose to do that.

The Boltons control Winterfell. Littlefinger wants Roose's title. How else is he going to get it except by deposing the current family?

If he rides on Winterfell himself, he's an enemy of the crown since the Boltons were sanctioned by King Joffrey and Tywin Lannister.

Sansa being in Winterfell is useful to the Boltons because it gives them more legitimacy in the face of northmen who think they are traitors. It is useful to Littlefinger because he wants an even larger lordship than the one granted him by his previous alliances.

It's a convoluted plan to be sure, and not one that many would agree to.

But I ask you this. Who made the choice? It was Sansa who had the option to either marry Ramsay or return to the Vale. Did she know what she was getting? Absolutely not. Ramsay could have been the sweetest man she had ever met. She doesn't have the luxury of that information like we do.

She made a decision to return home and take her place as the heiress to Winterfell. Any sons she has will be true born and noble with Stark blood in their veins. She's choosing to play the game instead of running from it. It turns out it's a pretty damn scary game.

 

[theignoramus]

Shouldn't we wait till the rest of the season plays out to see if the show will finally deliver on the aftermath of something so awful?

I understand that the show has a poor track record of this shit, but this could all be premature bitching for what might actually be a sign of improvement for the show.

Show is trashy now. I think the rape scene between Jamie and Cersei was unintentionally so, but the Sansa rape was deliberate trash. Its a shame because the Arya and Tyrion storylines are being well executed and make you want to continue taking the show seriously.

 

[Speevy]

Show is trashy now. I think the rape scene between Jamie and Cersei was unintentionally so, but the Sansa rape was deliberate trash. Its a shame because the Arya and Tyrion storylines are being well executed and make you want to continue taking the show seriously.

The show has always been full of gratuitous sex and violence, even from season 1.

The rape scene between Jaime and Cersei was badly directed, but D&D have come out and said that they fully intended for it to be rape.

 

[Lothar]

But I ask you this. Who made the choice? It was Sansa who had the option to either marry Ramsay or return to the Vale.

Yeah, marry into the family that betrayed and killed your family without even a solid plan set up. In fact she even says "I don't know how to do that." It was a stupid unrealistic choice that was only made because the writers wanted it to move her to the rape scene. Seriously. I'm not even being hyperbolic. It's clear they started with that scene and then worked backwards.

 

[Dude Abides]

Show is trashy now.

Now? It's always been pretty pulpy.

 

[SoulUnison]

Was this scene/exchange supposed to be *SO* memorable that we're just expected to know what they're saying without subtitles/lip reading?

Come ON, man. This is like the next level of "screenshot without a game title."

 

[stufte]

Yeah, marry into the family that betrayed and killed your family without even a solid plan set up. In fact she even says "I don't know how to do that." It was a stupid unrealistic choice that was only made because the writers wanted it to move her to the rape scene. Seriously. I'm not even being hyperbolic. It's clear they started with that scene and then worked backwards.

So you're saying the writers wanted to see her raped and manipulated the storyline to get her to that point? And you're not being hyperbolic?

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Yeah, marry into the family that betrayed and killed your family without even a solid plan set up. In fact she even says "I don't know how to do that." It was a stupid unrealistic choice that was only made because the writers wanted it to move her to the rape scene. Seriously. I'm not even being hyperbolic. It's clear they started with that scene and then worked backwards.

I'm totally down for criticizing the way the show is written but there's basically no conceivable way that's true.

It's not like they completely made this whole storyline up---they merged it with an existing storyline and added new elements and characters.

 

[Lothar]

So you're saying the writers wanted to see her raped and manipulated the storyline to get her to that point? And you're not being hyperbolic?

Yes. I think they wanted another Red Wedding/Oberyn reaction.

 

[lastplayed]

Was this scene/exchange supposed to be *SO* memorable that we're just expected to know what they're saying without subtitles/lip reading?

Yes.

 

[stufte]

Yes. I think they wanted another Red Wedding/Oberyn reaction.

I'm sorry but this rape scene has nothing at all on the Red Wedding, and the writers aren't that stupid to think that they are equatable. There's plenty of shocking material to pull from in the books and this is just not that shocking.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Yes. I think they wanted another Red Wedding/Oberyn reaction.

But those big moments are usually saved for the very end of the season not the middle.

And as awful as it was to experience the fact that it happened is not exactly a shock given what we knew about Sansa and Ramsay's characters.

 

[theignoramus]

Now? It's always been pretty pulpy.

But not nauseatingly so . Its different this time because their raunchiness involves a sympathetic, well known character being defiled in a graphic, ugly manner. I suppose they want to continue the series trend of no character being immune from the most shocking kind of suffering and indignity, but I dont think what they did was good storytelling. It was a bludgeon to the eyes and ears.
PheonixDark alluded to it earlier: where the book might convey something terrible with clever understatement, the showrunners want to throw it in your face.

 

[Ralemont]

Was this scene/exchange supposed to be *SO* memorable that we're just expected to know what they're saying without subtitles/lip reading?

Come ON, man. This is like the next level of "screenshot without a game title."

Considering it just happened? Yeah, probably.

Stannis is being a Grammar Nazi. Someone said "less", and he corrects "Fewer." Davos is all "wut" and Stannis with his disappointed Dad face says "Nothing".

 

[Dude Abides]

But not nauseatingly so . Its different this time because their raunchiness involves a sympathetic, well known character being defiled in a graphic, ugly manner. I suppose they want to continue the series trend of no character being immune from the most shocking kind of suffering and indignity, but I dont think what they did was good storytelling. It was a bludgeon to the eyes and ears.
PheonixDark alluded to it earlier: where the book might convey something terrible with clever understatement, the showrunners want to throw it in your face.

I agree. Maybe because it was so predictable they thought they had to throw it in the audience's face for the desired shock value.

 

[Ayt]

But not nauseatingly so . Its different this time because their raunchiness involves a sympathetic, well known character being defiled in a graphic, ugly manner. I suppose they want to continue the series trend of no character being immune from the most shocking kind of suffering and indignity, but I dont think what they did was good storytelling. It was a bludgeon to the eyes and ears.
PheonixDark alluded to it earlier: where the book might convey something terrible with clever understatement, the showrunners want to throw it in your face.

So sympathetic, well known characters haven't been defiled in a graphic, ugly manner previously in Game of Thrones?

 

[Lothar]

But those big moments are usually saved for the very end of the season not the middle.

And as awful as it was to experience the fact that it happened is not exactly a shock given what we knew about Sansa and Ramsay's characters.

Come on. You weren't shocked. A hell of a lot of people were shocked. I knew from the beginning of the episode that it was going to end with sex but I didn't even see it ending with Sansa crying and screaming.

But unlike most people in the thread I don't have a problem with that by itself. I don't have a problem with it being horrifying. I have a problem with it being just for shock and I say it's just for shock since the story leading up to her being in that position doesn't make any sense. It comes off as them trying to jam pieces of puzzle into places that don't fit. Example: Littlefinger not knowing anything about Ramsay, the guy who is currently going around flaying people for not doing their taxes.

 

[stufte]

Come on. You weren't shocked. A hell of a lot of people were shocked. I knew from the beginning of the episode that it was going to end with sex but I didn't even see it ending with Sansa crying and screaming.

But unlike most people in the thread I don't have a problem with that by itself. I don't have a problem with it being horrifying. I have a problem with it being just for shock and I say it's just for shock since the story leading up to her being in that position doesn't make any sense. It comes off as them trying to jam pieces of puzzle into places that don't fit. Example: Littlefinger not knowing anything about Ramsay, the guy who is currently going around flaying people for not doing their taxes.

Then you haven't been paying attention. The have been setting that up for the last few episodes going into great detail about how he treats his lovers.

 

[devilhawk]

Again and for the last time until I write out in detail how they could have finished the last episode with the same information better conveyed - there is nothing about the rape scene that couldn't be conveyed as effectively through dialogue other than the tension, discomfort, and violence. All of those could be conveyed in dialogue, but not felt as keenly. Why feeling that is necessary to the political motions of the story is beyond me.

If instead of partially showing as they did, the show decided to have Sansa in the next episode go "man, being raped is horrible and Ramsay is an asshole," I can only imagine the posters that would sprint to this forum to post about how the show trivializes rape. And rightfully so. The show was able to display how horrific it is yet not be needlessly graphic.

I'm not a fan of Sansa even being in Winterfell, but I sure as know it could have been worse considering the actual scene in the books.

 

[Lothar]

Then you haven't been paying attention. The have been setting that up for the last few episodes going into great detail about how he treats his lovers.

I assumed wrongly that the show was going to portray her as a transformed stronger character, that since Littlefinger told her to make the Ramsay boy yours she was going to somehow make Ramsay hers, and that Littlefinger was telling her the truth when he said Ramsay had fallen for her.

You don't have to say any of this is bad, but the show had clearly been showing her as a transformed character and now she's a victim again. That is a shock.

 

[stufte]

I assumed wrongly that the show was going to portray her as a transformed stronger character, that since Littlefinger told her to make the Ramsay boy yours she was going to somehow make Ramsay hers, and that Littlefinger was telling her the truth when he said Ramsay had fallen for her.

You don't have to say any of this is bad, but the show had clearly been showing her as a transformed character and now she's a victim again. That is a shock.

That scene where Littlefinger lays out for Cersei where Sansa is meant to me that he's manipulating Sansa, and always has been. I also don't think Sansa has ever been more than a weak person pretending to be strong. She's never been able to hold her own.

 

[theignoramus]

So sympathetic, well known characters haven't been defiled in a graphic, ugly manner previously in Game of Thrones?

Closest thing was Dany and Khal Drogo. Was there an uproar over that? It made sense in the context of the story and seemed matter of fact in the way it was depicted, like it wasnt simply an artificial scene designed to elicit shock and horror.

 

[CharminUltra]

I'm eager to see whether ratings will go up or down next episode

 

[devilhawk]

I assumed wrongly that the show was going to portray her as a transformed stronger character, that since Littlefinger told her to make the Ramsay boy yours she was going to somehow make Ramsay hers, and that Littlefinger was telling her the truth when he said Ramsay had fallen for her.

You don't have to say any of this is bad, but the show had clearly been showing her as a transformed character and now she's a victim again. That is a shock.

I'm also shocked that Sansa is not ruling Westeros mere episodes after changing her clothes and hair and walking down a staircase.

 

[Kintaro]

That scene where Littlefinger lays out for Cersei where Sansa is meant to me that he's manipulating Sansa, and always has been. I also don't think Sansa has ever been more than a weak person pretending to be strong. She's never been able to hold her own.

This. Sansa is a pawn. Always was a pawn. Probably always will be in this show. Like all of the Stark's though, she had a hand in her own fate along the way.

 

[Night Angel]

I'm also shocked that Sansa is not ruling Westeros mere episodes after changing her clothes and hair and walking down a staircase.

Can't wait for her to slay a dragon this Sunday. Drogon (Drogon the dragon lol what a loser) has it coming.

 

[Lothar]

That scene where Littlefinger lays out for Cersei where Sansa is meant to me that he's manipulating Sansa, and always has been. I also don't think Sansa has ever been more than a weak person pretending to be strong. She's never been able to hold her own.

Yeah, that seems to be the case. Too bad. Book Sansa was smarter in book 4 and could spot LF's lies.

 

[The Silver]

I'm also shocked that Sansa is not ruling Westeros mere episodes after changing her clothes and hair and walking down a staircase.

a few lessons with Littlefinger and even a 15 year old girl can become a master manipulator. Tywin himself(RIP) won't be able to get one over on you.

 

[royalan]

It serves the plot and character development. Sansa Stark lost her virginity. She was also raped by a sick man. She now has to exist within this harsh world, and make plans to survive or possibly end up like one of Ramsay's hunts.

Whether we like the scene, it definitely was a big event in Sansa's life. It's not like they're going to pretend it never happened.

And this is terrible writing because none of it is new information or gave us anything new.

Ramsey is a sick man. We already know that. We got an entire season that showed us, in grim detail, how sick that man is. It's old, it's tired, it's boring at this point.

Of course Sansa exists in a harsh world. She's been existing in a harsh world since season 1. Rape shouldn't be used as some sort of introduction for female characters to the "harsh world" they live in. Especially when it's been done before on the show, and now you're doing it with a character who has only known suffering (and, a point I made earlier, male rape was especially common in medieval days. So if we have to see rape used as a plot device for the woman for "believability", where are all the male rape scenes?).

 

[Lothar]

I'm also shocked that Sansa is not ruling Westeros mere episodes after changing her clothes and hair and walking down a staircase.

If that scene was just a troll on the audience and she's just as weak and helpless as ever, that is actually pretty clever. I would give them credit for that.

 

[Sober]

This. Sansa is a pawn. Always was a pawn. Probably always will be in this show. Like all of the Stark's though, she had a hand in her own fate along the way.

I think - or I hope - this is where she breaks off from family tradition. Otherwise it kinda makes the whole exercise feel a little pointless. Rape scenes - especially in fiction dressed to be analogous to medieval European sensibilities - will happen, if you're going for those. I think a lot of the ire people are drawing don't care for, or don't think D&D and co. will be able to follow through on it, considering where it went for with Dany and Cersei. The preview for next week's episode proved a little promising

Spoiler

Sansa really flinching at Ramsey reaching in for a kiss

. But I think GoT has a bit of a poor record with having their female characters raped and then not giving much follow-through with them. I don't think the act of the rape itself is more important than everything surrounding it after, which is vastly more interesting to watch if done right.

By the way, a network TV show on the CW did a rape plotline this year (Reign). I don't think it concluded very well but it had extremely good follow-through with all the related parties. How the plot propelled out of it was kinda deflating, but still.

 

[Speevy]

And this is terrible writing because none of it is new information or gave us anything new.

Ramsey is a sick man. We already know that. We got an entire season that showed us, in grim detail, how sick that man is. It's old, it's tired, it's boring at this point.

Of course Sansa exists in a harsh world. She's been existing in a harsh world since season 1. Rape shouldn't be used as some sort of introduction for female characters to the "harsh world" they live in. Especially when it's been done before on the show, and now you're doing it with a character who has only known suffering (and, a point I made earlier, male rape was especially common in medieval days. So if we have to see rape used as a plot device for the woman for "believability", where are all the male rape scenes?).

So what is your solution? Don't start with that "Sansa shouldn't be here." because it's done and inextricable to the plot.

What would be a better scene following Sansa's wedding ceremony?

 

[Damerman]

Though im convinced more or less to wait for the payout in this final scene, i'd like to compare jeyne pool and sansa's situation. Granted its inevitable that they would both suffer the fate of marriage consummation, and granted that its much worse for jeyne than it is for sansa, but they are two totally different characters with two totally different life experiences and family lineage. Expecting both jeyne(who for sure never had and never will have a plan aside from the impromptu escape) and sansa(a noble who has been convinced to get married and consummate the marriage and to plot vengeance ) to react to the consumation in the same way is fundamentally wrong in my opinion.

 

[royalan]

So what is your solution? Don't start with that "Sansa shouldn't be here." because it's done and inextricable to the plot.

What would be a better scene following Sansa's wedding ceremony?

If you need "Guy On Internet" to give you an example of better story-telling than D+D, that's just further indictment of how lazy their writing has been this season.

At the end of last season, you started a redemption arc for Sansa by having her concoct a brilliant lie at the last second and sell the shit out of it in order to save Littlefinger's life, a man Sansa clearly doesn't care much for but is one of the few people on this planet she can (somewhat) trust to not want her dead. In that moment, in that one scene, we saw just how capable Sansa was of being intelligent, quick-witted, and pragmatic.

What I wanted out of that scene, out of Sansa's interactions with Ramsey in general, is signs of THAT Sansa.

Sansa could have still ended up getting raped, but I would have preferred to see her act with SOME agency, have SOME sort of plan (even if it would fail), I would have loved Sophie Turner to portray Sansa as being somewhat prepared (because the Sansa we now know would have been prepared).

Instead, we get season 2-3 Sansa. Quiet, meek, whimpering/crying, waiting for instructions and completely unprepared for what was about to happen to her.

 

[tkscz]

I understand the outrage, but doesn't this happen a lot in this show? I barely watch it but I get told there is rape and murder all through out it's running.

 

[Lothar]

Back to what I was saying originally on this page, going along with what you guys are telling me about Sansa being a weak person pretending to be strong and LF is just manipulating her, she's a pawn and will always be,

Yeah, marry into the family that betrayed and killed your family without even a solid plan set up. In fact she even says "I don't know how to do that." It was a stupid unrealistic choice that was only made because the writers wanted it to move her to the rape scene.

Is the story and way to make this make sense be that she's actually imbecilic to just believe without question what LF was saying? She knows she has no plan. She knows Stannis is coming to kill Boltons, LF tells her he's going to win, she doesn't stop to think "Why am I here?" Instead she thinks "LF said it's a good idea, I'm not going to think about it, it must be right"?

 

[Kinitari]

If you need "Guy On Internet" to give you an example of better story-telling than D+D, that's just further indictment of how lazy their writing has been this season.

At the end of last season, you started a redemption arc for Sansa by having her concoct a brilliant lie at the last second and sell the shit out of it in order to save Littlefinger's life, a man Sansa clearly doesn't care much for but is one of the few people on this planet she can (somewhat) trust to not want her dead. In that moment, in that one scene, we saw just how capable Sansa was of being intelligent, quick-witted, and pragmatic.

What I wanted out of that scene, out of Sansa's interactions with Ramsey in general, is signs of THAT Sansa.

Sansa could have still ended up getting raped, but I would have preferred to see her act with SOME agency, have SOME sort of plan (even if it would fail), I would have loved Sophie Turner to portray Sansa as being somewhat prepared (because the Sansa we now know would have been prepared).

Instead, we get season 2-3 Sansa. Quiet, meek, whimpering/crying, waiting for instructions and completely unprepared for what was about to happen to her.

But why is this bad writing? It just sounds like you wanted a character to suddenly transform. I don't think it's that you suddenly think that Sansa should now no longer ever get tricked, or screwed over, or portray weakness and nativity, do you?

Back to what I was saying originally on this page, going along with what you guys are telling me about Sansa being a weak person pretending to be strong and LF is just manipulating her, she's a pawn and will always be,

Is the story and way to make this make sense be that she's actually imbecilic to just believe without question what LF was saying? She knows she has no plan. She knows Stannis is coming to kill Boltons, LF tells her he's going to win, she doesn't stop to think "Why am I here?" Instead she thinks "LF said it's a good idea, I'm not going to think about it, it must be right"?

It doesn't have to be so black and white - that she's either an imbecile or transformed into a manipulative genius. She's still a young girl who's only had a few years of hardship, way out of her depth just doing anything to try and improve her situation. Her attitude and disposition is starting to change, but this is a gradual thing, and there are going to be setbacks and challenges. You could interpret this scene in so many different ways, a harsh reminder that Sansa had a long way to go, a test of her new resolve, a reminder that no one is safe from the horrors that befall men and women in this world. It is a plot point that complicates the idea forming in people's heads about Sansa's character and one that has brought out so much discussion, consideration and debate that the idea that this was a shallow and gratuitous plot point falls flat when you just read a few pages of this thread. Heck, your post alone asking how Sansa could make such a mistake shows me that this isn't.

 

[royalan]

But why is this bad writing? It just sounds like you wanted a character to suddenly transform. I don't think it's that you suddenly think that Sansa should now no longer ever get tricked, or screwed over, or portray weakness and nativity, do you?

Who said anything about "suddenly transform"? We're on freaking episode 6. We've seen faster development with pretty much every other major character on the show. I'm not asking for a sudden transformation; I'm asking for a continuation of the transformation the writers started last season. But what we got last Sunday was a regression, and for what? A rape scene that illuminates nothing about the characters or their circumstances? That's pointless. And why even bother playing around with rape on a major character if it's just going to be pointless.

 

[Kinitari]

Who said anything about "suddenly transform"? We're on freaking episode 6. We've seen faster development with pretty much every other major character on the show. I'm not asking for a sudden transformation; I'm asking for a continuation of the transformation to writers started last season. But what we got last Sunday was a regression, and for what? A rape scene that illuminates nothing about the characters or their circumstances? That's pointless. And why even bother playing around with rape on a major character if it's just going to be pointless.

It illuminates a lot about a lot of characters. It shows that Sansa, as strong as she's trying to be, is still dealing with situations that are too difficult for her, or maybe anyone, to handle well. It highlights that the dynamic growing between her and her husband is, regardless of any hints of fondness, a terrible thing. It creates a unique bond between Sansa and a man she hates. It reminds us that no one is safe, it illicited such a powerful emotional reaction the internet is still reeling and decomposing the characters, scene and the show days after it happened and has brought on extremely interesting discussions about the portrayal of rape on TV and the expectations people place on heroines.

This shit was anything but pointless.

 

[royalan]

It illuminates a lot about a lot of characters. It shows that Sansa, as strong as she's trying to be, is still dealing with situations that are too difficult for her, or maybe anyone, to handle well. It highlights that the dynamic growing between her and her husband is, regardless of any hints of fondness, a terrible thing. It creates a unique bond between Sansa and a man she hates. It reminds us that no one is safe, it illicited such a powerful emotional reaction the internet is still reeling and decomposing the characters, scene and the show days after it happened and has brought on extremely interesting discussions about the portrayal of rape on TV and the expectations people place on heroines.

This shit was anything but pointless.

And you didn't need rape to do any of this. If that's D+D's point, it's still lazy writing.

I mean, think about it: if Sansa hates Theon because she believes he killed her younger brothers, how does her being raped change that? How does rape logically create that bond in a way their mutual hatred of the Bolton's wouldn't have? People are arguing that this makes sense because the show is saying, "this makes sense." But it doesn't make sense.

Also, not all controversy is good controversy. The conversation this episode generated is not the sort that makes people go "Oh, That Game of Thrones show sounds so good! Female rape as an overused plot device, let me check that out!"

 

[devilhawk]

If you need "Guy On Internet" to give you an example of better story-telling than D+D, that's just further indictment of how lazy their writing has been this season.

At the end of last season, you started a redemption arc for Sansa by having her concoct a brilliant lie at the last second and sell the shit out of it in order to save Littlefinger's life, a man Sansa clearly doesn't care much for but is one of the few people on this planet she can (somewhat) trust to not want her dead. In that moment, in that one scene, we saw just how capable Sansa was of being intelligent, quick-witted, and pragmatic.

What I wanted out of that scene, out of Sansa's interactions with Ramsey in general, is signs of THAT Sansa.

Sansa could have still ended up getting raped, but I would have preferred to see her act with SOME agency, have SOME sort of plan (even if it would fail), I would have loved Sophie Turner to portray Sansa as being somewhat prepared (because the Sansa we now know would have been prepared).

Instead, we get season 2-3 Sansa. Quiet, meek, whimpering/crying, waiting for instructions and completely unprepared for what was about to happen to her.

Honestly, too fucking bad. Sansa could have her head chopped off next episode, for all we know. You aren't entitled to anything story-wise.

Not everyone gets a completed redemption arc in ASOIAF. Not everyone gets their revenge.

And the Sansa we know has walked down some stairs in a new outfit. Then she nodded to everything Littlefinger said.

In fact, her lying to the other lords of the Vale fits perfectly into her "non-agency" character as it is exactly what she did to Robert with Arya and the butcher's boy on the Kingsroad.

 

[Kintaro]

Who said anything about "suddenly transform"? We're on freaking episode 6. We've seen faster development with pretty much every other major character on the show. I'm not asking for a sudden transformation; I'm asking for a continuation of the transformation the writers started last season. But what we got last Sunday was a regression, and for what? A rape scene that illuminates nothing about the characters or their circumstances? That's pointless. And why even bother playing around with rape on a major character if it's just going to be pointless.

People say that Sansa has started to transform. I don't see it. At all. She is the same now with LF as she was before. She goes with the whims of those stronger than her because she has nothing. No leverage. LF has played her like the Lanissters (I can't spell atm, sorry) before him. Her situation with LF was no better or worse than before. Her character has not transformed at all. She continues to play in the palms of those stronger and more powerful than her with no backbone or guts to oppose them. She is basically a window to the scheming, the brutality and "the game" that we view through.

Right now, her situation seems to serve Theron's character development more than her own. If something interesting occurs with his character due to these actions by Ramsey, then it would not have been pointless.

 

[royalan]

Honestly, too fucking bad. Sansa could have her head chopped off next episode, for all we know. You aren't entitled to anything story-wise.

Not everyone gets a completed redemption arc in ASOIAF. Not everyone gets their revenge.

And the Sansa we know has walked down some stairs in a new outfit. Then she nodded to everything Littlefinger said.

In fact, her lying to the other lords of the Vale fits perfectly into her "non-agency" character as it is exactly what she did to Robert with Arya and the butcher's boy on the Kingsroad.

But I am allowed to criticize the show for tired, lazy, unimaginative writing. And a quick Google search tells me I'm not the only one.

Right now, her situation seems to serve Theron's character development more than her own. If something interesting occurs with his character due to these actions by Ramsey, then it would not have been pointless.

And, as has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, this is still problematic for a lot of people. "Female rape to service an adjacent male character's storyline" is a tired trope. It's terrible writing, especially since there are plot elements already present in the show that could have served the same function to wake Theon up.

 

[Speevy]

I want you guys to think of Sansa's character from the beginning of this show, and everything that has ever been said to her. I'm not talking about the times when Joffrey has hit her or insulted her, or even had her beaten. I'm not even talking about the time he threatened to rape her.

Sansa begins her story as a young girl who is smitten with a prince named Joffrey. She calls him a golden lion and wants to have his babies. Ned wants to find her a more suitable match for obvious reasons.

She is told that she is pretty at the expense of her sister, and believes she'll have a fairy tale wedding and live happily ever after.

But then something happens. Joffrey nearly cuts her sister's head off with a sword, and instead of telling the truth, she sides with Joffrey and says she doesn't remember what happened. This gets her direwolf killed and drives a wedge between her and her family. This is the first real decision Sansa Stark makes.

Lesson learned: Don't take sides against the family.

Sansa's development from this point is structured around her courtship to Joffrey, even though she has no idea that he secretly despises her whole family.

When all hell breaks lose and people start getting kidnapped and stabbed, Sansa pleads to Joffrey to save Ned's life, but she makes one fatal error. She assumes he loves her more than he loves that crown. She is sorely mistaken and Ned is executed.

Lesson learned: Never plead with the wicked.

Now, from this point on Sansa is abused both physically and mentally throughout season 2, but learns a few hard lessons along the way. The first is that she should say whatever these wicked men want to hear to keep from getting abused. The Hound teaches her that all men are killers. Littlefinger teaches her that everyone in King's Landing is a liar. Cersei teaches her that having children, even out of an unpleasant arranged marriage is a blessing because you never love anyone how you love her children. Then she is tossed aside for a more suitable bride, which teaches her that her girlhood fantasies are over.

Lesson learned: In this patriarchal society, learn to say what people want to hear and help powerful men and try to make your own happiness in life. Having a disgraced name is never going to yield her automatic rewards.

Now we move onto season 3 with the Tyrells freshly embedded in King's Landing. The Queen of Thorns Olenna Tyrell makes her reveal what a horrible monster Joffrey is, and prompts Margaery to contemplate a match between she and her brother Loras. Meanwhile LIttlefinger plans to use her as a politcal trading card and stow her away on a ship, but that never happens. Tywin squashes these plans however and Sansa is married to Tyrion. She learns from this situation that not all men are cruel, and Margaery imparts some very important advice about marriage. She tells Sansa that men come in all shapes and sizes, and sometimes you learn to love them unexpectedly. Tyrion also shows her that there are still people in this world who care about her and the suffering she's endured. Then the red wedding happens and all of her hopes and dreams of reuniting with her family are dashed.

Lesson learned: She has to seize her first opportunity to get out of King's Landing because every waking moment is a reminder of the horrors her family has endured. Even the kindly Tyrion is no comfort to her after this point.

Then in season 4 the purple wedding happens and Sansa's story wildly changes. She runs away from King's Landing aboard Littlefinger's secret murder ship and winds up in the Vale. She uses what she has learned about lying and manipulating people to get Littlefinger out of some very hot water, and becomes a lady of the Vale. She also develops a newfound confidence she hasn't had previously.

Lesson learned: Tell people what they want to hear to manipulate them into doing what you want.

So now we're in this season, the one where Sansa gets carted off to WInterfell with the evil Boltons. If this is truly a backward step in character development for her, she'll learn absolutely nothing from this. However, as it turns out, she's the first Stark who has set foot in Winterfell since Bran and Rickon were supposedly burned alive. This is her home, and she's not a prisoner. She has to marry a horrible man, but she's already been betrothed to a horrible man. She has to lose her virginity, and while she didn't need to be raped, she probably realize her new husband will want sex. She now has real power. She's no longer the daughter of a disgraced lord. She is wife to a nobleman, scummy as he is, and she's climbing the ladder of prominence. She is exerting influence throughout the other northern houses. Her very presence makes a difference to the political situation of the north.

Here's how she can use what she's learned throughout these seasons to help her in Winterfell.

-Give birth to Ramsay's child, and love that child. Raise that child to be different from the monsters she's known. Start a legacy that will fill the north with Stark children, and call them Stark after the wretched Boltons are dead and gone.
-Ally herself with other northern houses and betray the Boltons just as the Boltons betrayed her family.
-Use Littlefinger's army for protection from foreigners.
-Convince Roose Bolton that the Freys were the real traitors. Use one enemy to kill another.

Just because Ramsay bent her over a bed doesn't make Sansa the eternal victim. She has more power now than she's ever had, and she can still do more than she's ever done. It just looks dire because she's not eating lemon cakes in flowery rooms anymore.

This is her home.

I should also point out that it was always inevitable that a Stark would set foot in Winterfell again. You may not have thought it would be Sansa, but you knew it would happen.