More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)

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Lothar said:
The quote I posted says that they did. "There was a subplot from the books that we loved." The subplot of Ramsay raping a girl to change Theon.
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It also says “We really wanted Sansa to play a major part this season,” “If we were going to stay absolutely faithful to the book, it was going to be very hard to do that."

So they are also saying that it's about Sansa. That scene had nothing to do with Sansa in the books. Unless you can tell me what happens in future episodes you can't point to books.

Plus it's not like the books are perfect or anything. As far as I know the last few weren't great either. I don't understand why people are so obsessed with them.
 
Sansa mind game

This should help us determine if the scene is part of a well thought out storyline or if it was done just for shock value. Everyone who thinks that it's not just shock value, participate.

You're Sansa. You know Stannis is coming with a bigger army to kill Boltons. What's going through your mind?

"If Stannis wins (likely), he will kill the Boltons, I need to be in Winterfell and be tortured because of ___"
"If Bolton wins (not likely), I will do ___ to get my revenge. I'm so confident this plan will work and I can carry it out, I'm willing to put up with being tortured by them to do it."

Fill in the blanks.
 
Lothar said:
Sansa mind game

This should help us determine if the scene is part of a well thought out storyline or if it was done just for shock value. Everyone who thinks that it's not just shock value, participate.

You're Sansa. You know Stannis is coming with a bigger army to kill Boltons. What's going through your mind?

"If Stannis wins (likely), he will kill the Boltons, I need to be in Winterfell and be tortured because of ___"
"If Bolton wins (not likely), I will do ___ to get my revenge. I'm so confident this plan will work and I can carry it out, I'm willing to put up with being tortured by them to do it."

Fill in the blanks.
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That's totally different question. If you think Sansa should have not been in this season I'm fine with that. This "plan" looked stupid the moment she agreed to marry Ramsey and let Littlefinger leave. I'm hoping they will write themselves out of his, but it doesn't look likely at this point. If you want to argue that the show got worse I can see that perspective.
 
Ingeniero said:
It's not rape.
Husband and wife first night bedding, what's the matter?
02Do2Ff.png
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I know you're make a joke, but my wife didn't think it was rape either. Disturbing that Ramsey made Reek stay and watch, yes, but that doesn't mean it's rape.

I agree with her, but only because I let my wife make all my decisions for me.
 
Lothar said:
Sansa mind game

This should help us determine if the scene is part of a well thought out storyline or if it was done just for shock value. Everyone who thinks that it's not just shock value, participate.

You're Sansa. You know Stannis is coming with a bigger army to kill Boltons. What's going through your mind?

"If Stannis wins (likely), he will kill the Boltons, I need to be in Winterfell and be tortured because of ___"
"If Bolton wins (not likely), I will do ___ to get my revenge. I'm so confident this plan will work and I can carry it out, I'm willing to put up with being tortured by them to do it."

Fill in the blanks.
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"This is a really dumb plan"
 
Think about this in context.

Dany has an army, three dragons, and a family name that is despised throughout Westeros.

If she claimed the iron throne, she would be deposed almost immediately because no one in Westeros supports her claim. She is the only person less popular throughout the seven kingdoms than Stannis Baratheon.

Yet she hopes to one day sail to Westeros anyway. Dumb plan? GRRM wrote it.

Sansa comes from a place where a bunch of angry, boisterous, grizzled old lords worship the Starks. They think what was done to her family is the worst tragedy ever perpetrated by anyone in the history of their realm.

Sansa returns there and marries into the asshole family currently occupying the seat everyone wants them gone from. This is the moment they have been dreaming of since Robb Stark died. A Stark is in Winterfell.

Contrived? Extremely. Sensible? Hardly. But Sansa is safer in Winterfell than Dany would be on the iron throne.
 
I just saw it, thats what people are complaining about? that shit was nothing compared to some joffrey and ramsay scenes.

Kids getting killed left and right is all fine but this is the scene that causes outrage, I just think its the topic to be outraged about this week, until everyone moves on to the next thing that pisses them off.
 
Speevy said:
Think about this in context.

Dany has an army, three dragons, and a family name that is despised throughout Westeros.

If she claimed the iron throne, she would be deposed almost immediately because no one in Westeros supports her claim. She is the only person less popular throughout the seven kingdoms than Stannis Baratheon.

Yet she hopes to one day sail to Westeros anyway. Dumb plan? GRRM wrote it
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This isn't entirely true.

And even if it was, this was Dany and Viserys' dumb plan. A pair of dumb teenagers. I would hope Littlefinger would be smarter than that, but clearly the show version of him is kind of super dumb.
 
Resident_UA said:
That's totally different question. If you think Sansa should have not been in this season I'm fine with that. This "plan" looked stupid the moment she agreed to marry Ramsey and let Littlefinger leave. I'm hoping they will write themselves out of his, but it doesn't look likely at this point. If you want to argue that the show got worse I can see that perspective.
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Well if the rape didn't happen because of a natural story progression, that doesn't exactly say great things about why they chose to go that route. That's what I'm arguing. (Of course she doesn't need to recieve a rape to kill Ramsay or become a stronger character, so why was it done if it makes no sense? Only answer can be purely for shock imo)
 
Speevy said:
Think about this in context.

Dany has an army, three dragons, and a family name that is despised throughout Westeros.

If she claimed the iron throne, she would be deposed almost immediately because no one in Westeros supports her claim. She is the only person less popular throughout the seven kingdoms than Stannis Baratheon.

Yet she hopes to one day sail to Westeros anyway. Dumb plan? GRRM wrote it.
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I believe Dany doesn't know that the Targaryen name is despised. In the first season she and Viserys were told that the people whisper the Targaryen name in taverns across Westeros and long for their rightful rulers to come depose the usurper. Did she get clued in at some point?
 
Ri'Orius said:
I believe Dany doesn't know that the Targaryen name is despised. In the first season she and Viserys were told that the people whisper the Targaryen name in taverns across Westeros and long for their rightful rulers to come depose the usurper. Did she get clued in at some point?
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My point is that Sansa has a better chance of assuming some form of power or influence in Winterfell than Dany has of ruling over all seven kingdoms.

And while I agree that Littlefinger's logic is uncharacteristically muddled, his willingness to use people remains every bit as prevalent.
 
Lothar said:
Well if the rape didn't happen because of a natural story progression, that doesn't exactly say great things about why they chose to go that route. That's what I'm arguing. (Of course she doesn't need to recieve a rape to kill Ramsay or become a stronger character, so why was it done if it makes no sense? Only answer can be purely for shock imo)
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But "natural story progression" is very subjective concept. For me "natural story progression" is whatever the show tells me. For you "natural story progression" is what the books tell you. For the writers it's probably a mix of both plus logistical reasons (like having to use actors that they are paying). Also it's unclear to me what you mean by "purely for shock." It could be argued that 99% of events that happen in GOT are done "purely for shock."

Once again, I have no issue with people being offended by this scene, but this scene is not out of character for this show. People watch GOT because of "shock value."
 
Resident_UA said:
For you "natural story progression" is what the books tell you.
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This sentence makes it impossible to take you seriously. I just gave you a mind game to show that the story makes zero sense without mentioning the books.

For the writers it's probably a mix of both plus logistical reasons (like having to use actors that they are paying).
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A rape doesn't need to happen for logistical reasons. You're seriously telling me that's the only way they could think of to use an actor.

Purely for shock value means it's not done because it makes sense or makes the story better. It's done to make people mad and cause controversy.
 
Lothar said:
This sentence makes it impossible to take you seriously. I just gave you a mind game to show that the story makes zero sense without mentioning the books.



A rape doesn't need to happen for logistical reasons. You're seriously telling me that's the only way they could think of to use an actor.

Purely for shock value means it's not done because it makes sense or makes the story better. It's done to make people mad and cause controversy.
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I'm not trying to convince you of anything so not need to go to "take you seriously" thing. I'm just trying to figure out what this controversy is about. The most interesting part of GOT is its unpredictability. Characters do make stupid decisions all the time. Based on this season so far the show got worse from this perspective, but I'm still hoping that this plotline will pay off. If you really believe that writers added this scene just "to make people mad and cause controversy" then this problem will resolve itself. People will stop watching and the next season will be cancelled :)
 
Resident_UA said:
I'm not trying to convince you of anything so not need to go to "take you seriously" thing.
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You're right, I shouldn't have said that line. Should have said "hard to believe you're sincere" instead. Yeah, that sounds better.

I'm just trying to figure out what this controversy is about. The most interesting part of GOT is its unpredictability. Characters do make stupid decisions all the time. Based on this season so far the show got worse from this perspective, but I'm still hoping that this plotline will pay off. If you really believe that writers added this scene just "to make people mad and cause controversy" then this problem will resolve itself. People will stop watching and the next season will be cancelled :)
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Nah, controversy works. I can't wait to see the next episode. I wish it was Sunday right now. I can't even wait to see the next Dorne segment just for the train wreck factor.
 
Just when I think GoT might be waning in popularity, BAM this thread has 1800 replies. Crazy.

Show has some serious legs.

Has there ever been a thread this long about one scene in a midseason episode?
 
Just saw the scene and thought it was pretty tame compared to the rest of what was going on the series up to this point. Given the outrage I found it surprising is that it's a lot less "graphic" then the wedding night bedding scene of Daenerys with Drogo.

Not to say that it's not rape but after so many sites reporting about this scene I thought that it was much more.... well... extreme.
 
From this thread and the other GOT threads, I am baffled by how many people have an issue with what happened, given the context / characters.

IT'S RAMSEY BOLTON. He's tortured, killed, maimed, castrated, hunted, etc. humans and everyone is surprised he forcibly slept with his new high brow wife?
 
TheExorzist said:
Just saw the scene and thought it was pretty tame compared to the rest of what was going on the series up to this point. Given the outrage I found it surprising is that it's a lot less "graphic" then the wedding night bedding scene of Daenerys with Drogo.

Not to say that it's not rape but after so many sites reporting about this scene I thought that it was much more.... well... extreme.
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One of the most amazing revelations about the outrage is that people care about Sansa.. a lot.
 
Dude Abides said:
I did describe it, actually. I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.
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You did not.

I asked you to describe why it's cheesy and hamfisted. You made a hypothetical about the producers going, "SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT ON MONDAY!" and then went into less is more territory when acts of brutality and cruelty have never been less in Game of Thrones. Should every murder or barbaric act end with fade to black and the audience will pick up on it?
 
Lothar said:
One of the most amazing revelations about the outrage is that people care about Sansa.. a lot.
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Sansa is very popular in the Tumblr community. She is very easy for women to use as a self insert because she is pretty much a blank slate in the books and even the show. She is a fan fiction writers wet dream. At least some of the outrage is from her fans seeing her being spoiled and even worse for longstanding book fans it has been in a "non-canon" way.
 
I kinda like this outrage.

The gratuitous and unnecessary rape inclusion does have a point, intentional or otherwise.

Rape is not always meaningful. Terrible shit just happens sometimes to people we care about. This was particularly common at other points in history and in times of war.

Hopefully this outrage translates into action in the real world.
 
Arthr2ShdsJcksn said:
I know you're make a joke, but my wife didn't think it was rape either. Disturbing that Ramsey made Reek stay and watch, yes, but that doesn't mean it's rape.

I agree with her, but only because I let my wife make all my decisions for me.
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Wow. Really depressing that there are still people in the world that still think marriage means that it can't be rape. Especially after watching that and hearing her screaming and crying you really wouldn't call that rape?
 
Speevy said:
My point is that Sansa has a better chance of assuming some form of power or influence in Winterfell than Dany has of ruling over all seven kingdoms.

And while I agree that Littlefinger's logic is uncharacteristically muddled, his willingness to use people remains every bit as prevalent.
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Like you said: Dany has three dragons people will obey or die. And there are still Targaryen loyalists looking for favor.
 
LiquidSword said:
Wow. Really depressing that there are still people in the world that still think marriage means that it can't be rape. Especially after watching that and hearing her screaming and crying you really wouldn't call that rape?
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People in westeros wouldn't consider it rape, our society would. When people say it wasn't rape, they mean in context of the story and world.
 
Ferrio said:
People in westeros wouldn't consider it rape, our society would. End of story.
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Well yes obviously. I was replying to that guy who was saying him and his wife in our real world watching the show do not think it was rape.

Edit after seeing your edit lol: Are you sure that is what he means? If so, I guess he fooled me.
 
It's hard discerning the difference in outrage of 'rape on screen' vs. 'a character was raped when she wasn't in the books"

I felt so so bad for sansa when the episode was over. She has had enough agony, this wasn't a part of it in the books and it kind of felt needless. (I guess we'll see later this season)
 
Ferrio said:
People in westeros wouldn't consider it rape, our society would. When people say it wasn't rape, they mean in context of the story and world.
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I would love to hear from the original poster if they meant not rape at all, or not rape in Westeros. I am on the side of it being rape in both cases and I'm pretty sure the horror on Theon's face, and the screams from Sansa, indicate that they viewed it as rape as well.
 
Subpar Spatula said:
You did not.

I asked you to describe why it's cheesy and hamfisted. You made a hypothetical about the producers going, "SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT ON MONDAY!" and then went into less is more territory when acts of brutality and cruelty have never been less in Game of Thrones. Should every murder or barbaric act end with fade to black and the audience will pick up on it?
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The second speaker in the invented dialogue was pointing out why it was cheesy. I thought that was fairly obvious.
 
boiled goose said:
I kinda like this outrage.

The gratuitous and unnecessary rape inclusion does have a point, intentional or otherwise.

Rape is not always meaningful. Terrible shit just happens sometimes to people we care about. This was particularly common at other points in history and in times of war.

Hopefully this outrage translates into action in the real world.
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Fiction isn't a window into the real world, though. It has to make more sense, there should be reasons for choices that were made.

In this case, there could be a dozen reasons to have Ramsay rape Sansa on their wedding night. To further vilify Ramsay, to wrong Sansa, to enrage Theon - it opens the door for dozens of storyline possibilities down the line.

Where this criticism would have been warranted was the Jamie/Cersei scene in Season 4. That had no reason to happen, had no consequences or follow-up. There was no change to Jamie or Cersei's arc because of it. It was drama for dramas sake.
 
Sheroking said:
Fiction isn't a window into the real world, though. It has to make more sense, there should be reasons for choices that were made.

In this case, there could be a dozen reasons to have Ramsay rape Sansa on their wedding night. To further vilify Ramsay, to wrong Sansa, to enrage Theon - it opens the door for dozens of storyline possibilities down the line.

Where this criticism would have been warranted was the Jamie/Cersei scene in Season 4. That had no reason to happen, had no consequences or follow-up. There was no change to Jamie or Cersei's arc because of it. It was drama for dramas sake.
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Reminding the audience of what the fictional world is like is the reason. Also it would be weird if Ramsay DIDN'T rape Sansa.
 
Dude Abides said:
The second speaker in the invented dialogue was pointing out why it was cheesy. I thought that was fairly obvious.
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My idea of detailed isn't a few lines of broad character information spun to sound bad. What you did is like when most wine critics call Merlot complex without actually defining what "complex" means in relation to that wine.
 
Book spoilers!

What makes the scene even more bullshit when juxtaposed to the book is the fact that sansa was in the vale quickly picking up on LF's schemes to they point where they teamed up to plan little robert's death and sansa's marriage to the next heir to the veil so that she can have an army to reclaim winterfel.

In this show she is just constantly reduced to a victim despite all the power that she has in her possession. Seriously, thr best compromise for replacing her with a much weaker and vulnerable jeyne pool was if she didnt give ramsey the satisfaction of hearing her scream and wail.

I understands what the writters are going for in order to show the brutality and reality of marriage consummation and marriage arrangements, but narratively it feels like they did it for other purposes than to show a harsh reality.
 
Opto said:
http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/21/a-rape-victim-speaks-out-on-the-sansa-scene/
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Damn. That's really powerful.

Whole thing should be read, but the argument about why you can't just say "it was adapted from the books!" is really effective.

They are not adapting the Jeyne sub-plot. They are contriving to use the rape of Jeyne in Sana’s plot line. Sansa will not be broken – she will overcome – like a “hero”. Not like me. Not like Jeyne. We are weak. We don’t make good television. People don’t want to see stories about people like me. Well I don’t want to see stories like their’s.
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ultron87 said:
Damn. That's really powerful.

Whole thing should be read, but the argument about why you can't just say "it was adapted from the books!" is really effective.
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That's the most damning thing, is really hard to argue the Jeyne subplot should be integrated into the show's own arcs because it doesn't fit anywhere with any of the existent characters, so it becomes painfully obvious that the show's writer's insistence on doing the Jeyne plot one way or another was for the shoking nature of said plot.

But we don't even need to look further than what they did to Loras. They are hacks, plain and simple.
 
Yeah so they really wrote themselves into a corner. Either show what rape does to someone, which would dead-tracks Sansa's arc, or it'll be a thing to "overcome" so you feel better when/if Ramsey is killed, ignoring the gravity of what rape is.
 
mantidor said:
That's the most damning thing, is really hard to argue the Jeyne subplot should be integrated into the show's own arcs because it doesn't fit anywhere with any of the existent characters, so it becomes painfully obvious that the show's writer's insistence on doing the Jeyne plot one way or another was for the shoking nature of said plot.

But we don't even need to look further than what they did to Loras. They are hacks, plain and simple.
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That is another thing that bothers me. The book never discriminated against gays in this fashion, but now they are showing how much oppression gays suffer for the sake of shock value. There was no other reason for loras' arrest other than to pander to lgbt movement... I support the lgbt movement, but the way they are doing it in the show really insults my intelligence. Not to mention what cersie does to loras in the books is much more interesting.
 
Faddy said:
He is the Master of Whispers but Varys didn't leave him a rolodex of spies. He has the title so he can be on the small council because Cersei trusts him. He has contribute no intelligence of any note to Cersei.

Setting up Tyrion was a huge risk. It could have backfired spectacularly. What if Tyrion avoids Catelyn and arrives in the capital and is arrested by Eddard. The whole plan could have backfired in spectacular fashion.

The scene where Baelish threatens Cersei is a well thought out scene. She comes to him needing his knowledge, his spies and he takes the opportunity to see how far he can push her and assess her reaction. She is not as callow as he thought. That is a calculated risk as when she asks a favour he knows he is not expendable. He even gauges his expendability first by enquiring about her relationship with Varys.
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Well, except for the fact that he does. He sits on his ass and informers bring information and get paid. That's how it works.

The plan was to start a Lannister/Stark war. What difference is it if it's started by Cat killing Tyrion or Jaime killing Ned?

By openly threatening Cersei he is showing his true nature. He becomes dangerous. Littlefinger got to where he was by being useful and amiable. What does he need to asess by making threats? Her personality is well known.
Damerman said:
to pander to lgbt movement... I support the lgbt movement, but the way they are doing it in the show really insults my intelligence. Not to mention what cersie does to loras in the books is much more interesting.
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They are doing a horrible job if that is what it is.
 
Damerman said:
That is another thing that bothers me. The book never discriminated against gays in this fashion, but now they are showing how much oppression gays suffer for the sake of shock value. There was no other reason for loras' arrest other than to pander to lgbt movement... I support the lgbt movement, but the way they are doing it in the show really insults my intelligence. Not to mention what cersie does to loras in the books is much more interesting.
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If they want to "pander to the lgbt movement" they are doing a horrible job. This certainly isn't the way to do it.
 
We aren't even at episode 9, so I know there's more demented shit on the way for THIS show. Maybe its best that a lot of people jump offboard now rather than sticking around for the rest of the season and the future of the show. I have like.... 0 doubts that this show will waver from its harsh ways. It seems pretty damn clear from every episode thus far what kind of place they are crafting. And its full of ghastly shit.
 
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