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[ICKE]

I don't get the outrage.

This was a fictional off-screen portrayal of sexual assault in a medieval setting. Various characters have been victims of brutal acts throughout the show. What changed suddenly?

People seem to feel like they are entitled to specific outcomes but quite frankly people are not entitled to anything. Those who are responsible for writing and directing this TV-series have repeatedly demonstrated that they are willing to deviate from the books. This is their show and they decide what to do with all these characters and how story arc progresses from here.

This whole thing will blow off after the next episodes come out and other characters are brutalized mercilessly.

 

[Hero]

It's been a week and we still have people going "What do you expect? It's Game of Thrones! Nobody is safe!!!" You're completely missing the damn point.

http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/21/a-rape-victim-speaks-out-on-the-sansa-scene/

This is a great post on why last week's shock scene was so shitty.

 

[royalan]

I don't get the outrage.

This was a fictional off-screen portrayal of sexual assault in a medieval setting. Ramsay is a bad person who does bad things to people.

Worse things have happened during this show to various characters.

It is possible to write fantasy without falling back on the harmful cliché that an old-timey setting offers a free pass to show women getting raped all the time. -Everdeen Mason, Refinery29

Sums it up for me.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I don't get the outrage.

This was a fictional off-screen portrayal of sexual assault in a medieval setting. Various characters have been victims of brutal acts throughout the show. What changed suddenly?

People seem to feel like they are entitled to specific outcomes but quite frankly people are not entitled to anything. Those who are responsible for writing and directing this TV-series have repeatedly demonstrated that they are willing to deviate from the books. This is their show and they decide what to do with all these characters and how story arc progresses from here.

This whole thing will blow off after the next episodes come out and other characters are brutalized mercilessly.

Well that happens when it seems like you haven't read any of it, going by the rest of your post. Debate people with their actual opinions, not the ones you're imagining they have. People have spoken up about all sorts of problems with this show with great detail about why they're problems.

 

[badb0y]

It's been a week and we still have people going "What do you expect? It's Game of Thrones! Nobody is safe!!!" You're completely missing the damn point.



This is a great post on why last week's shock scene was so shitty.

How was it a shock scene? Is it shocking that a psychotic freak like Ramsay can rape someone? Really? That's a shock to you? The dude that tortured Theon, broke his soul, and chopped off his dick is not capable of rape? Is that what's being argued here?

 

[Dude Abides]

How was it a shock scene? Is it shocking that a psychotic freak like Ramsay can rape someone? Really? That's a shock to you? The dude that tortured Theon, broke his soul, and chopped off his dick is not capable of rape? Is that what's being argued here?

Yep. Everyone's arguing they can't imagine Ramsay raping someone. You totally got it man.

 

[ICKE]

Debate people with their actual opinions, not the ones you're imagining they have..

I am not interested with the nuances as to how all these different characters or situations were handled in the books. I wrote my message based on the few articles that I've read, because I don't have the inclination to go through this entire thread. Based on these news articles there seem to be two main talking points here :

-A- People are outraged over the way this story arc is being handled. That is a pointless argument at this point, because you have no idea how the story progresses from here or how the victim reacts.

-B- The act of rape itself should not be used as a plot device or it has been used too many times during this show. I understand that many people do not like the idea that sexual assault is used as entertainment. Personally I have few qualms with violent content but if these acts continue to happen without any apparent reason then I will come around.

 

[someday]

http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/21/a-rape-victim-speaks-out-on-the-sansa-scene/

This was eye-opening. Thank you for posting it.

 

[way more]

That is another thing that bothers me. The book never discriminated against gays in this fashion, but now they are showing how much oppression gays suffer for the sake of shock value. There was no other reason for loras' arrest other than to pander to lgbt movement... I support the lgbt movement, but the way they are doing it in the show really insults my intelligence. Not to mention what cersie does to loras in the books is much more interesting.

I don't even know where I'm supposed to direct my outrage at this point.

Just when I think GoT might be waning in popularity, BAM this thread has 1800 replies. Crazy.

Show has some serious legs.

Has there ever been a thread this long about one scene in a midseason episode?

I was three episodes behind and ready to dump the series and then this occurred. I realized I need to catch up to see what was so shocking to everyone.

 

[Opto]

This was eye-opening. Thank you for posting it.

I figured her thoughts on the matter were more important than mine. You're welcome.

 

[Simplet]

All I see are arguments against the quality of the show and its storyline, and yet people are trying to somehow turn it into a morality argument.

Even if everyone was right about the rape scene being gratuitous shock value, so what? This would only make this a bad TV show, it would not be an "outrage".

The only other category of arguments that I can see is the idea that a TV show somehow has an ethical responsibility to only present "strong" female characters in charge of their lives. To me this idea seems too silly to even be worthy of discussion.

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

Getting a strong feeling of people trying to tell artists what they can and cannot create. Don't like it. Don't watch it. You can't control the work of someone else, regardless of how it makes you feel.

 

[royalan]

Getting a strong feeling of people trying to tell artists what they can and cannot create. Don't like it. Don't watch it. You can't control the work of someone else, regardless of how it makes you feel.

But you can critique it.

 

[Currygan]

i haven't watched the episode yet then had the scene spoiled by a friend

imma gonna waltz into Winterfell like the fooking legend of Gin Alley and broardsword fucking Ramsay from ass to brains. NOBODY TOUCHES MY QUEEN

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

But you can critique it.

Not saying you can't. But a large amount of the outrage I've seen has been saying that it's a subject matter that cannot be addressed in media. Which isn't up to anyone to decide.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Not saying you can't. But a large amount of the outrage I've seen has been saying that it's a subject matter that cannot be addressed in media. Which isn't up to anyone to decide.

It literally is? We don't make racist movies much anymore because people said not to.

 

[soleil]

Yep. Everyone's arguing they can't imagine Ramsay raping someone. You totally got it man.

Then everyone is clearly an idiot.

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

It literally is? We don't make racist movies much anymore because people said not to.

No. People stopped making racist movies because people don't want to see racist movies. They got outraged. Then stopped watching them. You can still make them all you want.

If people are actually upset by the rape depicted. Stop watching Game of Thrones. Don't support the show that does what you disagree with.

 

[royalan]

Not saying you can't. But a large amount of the outrage I've seen has been saying that it's a subject matter that cannot be addressed in media. Which isn't up to anyone to decide.

Personally, I don't see a whole lot of people outright saying that rape should never be depicted in media. A lot of the opinion pieces I've read and seen linked in this thread have pointed out that rape IS an unfortunate reality of human society, and shows should be allowed to approach the subject. The problem is a lot of shows (Game of Thrones being one of them), have a history of not treating rape with the weight that it deserves, and tend to throw it in when they want a shocking moment on the show. Rape, for a lot of people, is a grave thing that should be treated a lot more seriously than that, if you're even going to go there.

For me personally, rape scenes are a lot like time travel stories. Sure, they can theoretically be done well. But for the most part you should probably avoid them because you're likely not going to be the person who does it well. And this certainly goes for the GoT's writers at this point.

 

[The One and Done™]

People saying they won't come back to the show are blatantly lying. This outrage is highly amusing to me. Hypocrites gon hypocrite I guess.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

No. People stopped making racist movies because people don't want to see racist movies. They got outraged. Then stopped watching them. You can still make them all you want.

If people are actually upset by the rape depicted. Stop watching Game of Thrones. Don't support the show that does what you disagree with.

I don't understand why you have a problem with people having opinions and voicing them.

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

I don't understand why you have a problem with people having opinions and voicing them.

I don't have a problem with opinons. I have a problem with the large sect of people I have seen attempting to censor the thing they don't like. Obviously not everyone upset wants to censor it, but I've seen enough people echo that sentiment to think it's worth addressing.

 

[nilbog21]

i'm reading this thread and I still can't uinderstand why peolpe are outraged? does rape offend them? im confused

 

[Corpekata]

Then everyone is clearly an idiot.

He was being sarcastic.

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

i'm reading this thread and I still can't uinderstand why peolpe are outraged? does rape offend them? im confused

People are upset over multiple different things, though the primary reason seems to be the meaninglessness of scene in the grandscheme of things since it differs from the book and had no gravity or importance outside shock value.

 

[soleil]

http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/21/a-rape-victim-speaks-out-on-the-sansa-scene/

She is saying that if a woman is raped and is shown broken by it, it's done right. If a woman is raped and becomes stronger for it, it's not done right. Seems to be a common belief but I can't say I am onboard with it. Showing people get stronger after being victimized isn't wrong.

 

[soleil]

He was being sarcastic.

Well his sarcasm did nothing to address the point of the poster he was answering. Ramsay not raping his new bride would be a headscratcher. That point was not addressed by sarcasm. All the sarcasm did was make fun of a very good point.

 

[Corpekata]

Well his sarcasm did nothing to address the point of the poster he was answering. Ramsay not raping his new bride would be a headscratcher. That point was not addressed by sarcasm. All the sarcasm did was make fun of a very good point.

It was a terrible point. The poster treated the discussion like the only way people can be shocked are if it's a twist or surprise.

It would not be out of character for Ramsay to flay the skin off a 7 year old. Doesn't mean a scene of it would not be disgusting and shocking to some people.

 

[soleil]

It was a terrible point. The poster treated the discussion like the only way people can be shocked are if it's a twist or surprise.

It would not be out of character for Ramsay to flay the skin off a 7 year old. Doesn't mean a scene of it would not be disgusting and shocking to some people.

But the point is that shock in itself does not necessarily draw criticism on this show.

 

[Ri'Orius]

Yeah so they really wrote themselves into a corner. Either show what rape does to someone, which would dead-tracks Sansa's arc, or it'll be a thing to "overcome" so you feel better when/if Ramsey is killed, ignoring the gravity of what rape is.

I dunno. Is it really so terrible to tell a story about someone who reacts to a traumatic situation in an extraordinary way? Most real people who lose their parents or their adopted father at a young age won't put on a costume and go fight crime, but Batman and Spider-Man do and that's why we care about them.

 

[ultron87]

But the point is that shock in itself does not necessarily draw criticism on this show.

What does that "point" have to do with this discussion? No one, except the straw men erected by people bumbling into the discussion saying "well of course he raped her", is saying the show shouldn't be shocking or is complaining about the scene being shocking.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I dunno. Is it really so terrible to tell a story about someone who reacts to a traumatic situation in an extraordinary way? Most real people who lose their parents or their adopted father at a young age won't put on a costume and go fight crime, but Batman and Spider-Man do and that's why we care about them.

It is when the rape in question was originally for a character that was completely broken after it and wasn't able to ever recover.

 

[Hex]

It literally is? We don't make racist movies much anymore because people said not to.

Yeah but you know what got lost in the shuffle?
Stuff like Mel Brooks early days and other comedy which yeah, had some jokes which were not nice but they were great movies.
Even things like Eddie Murphy Raw, Richard Pryor's stand up specials and things we will never see the like again because people are on egg shells which is down right sad.

 

[Corpekata]

Yeah but you know what got lost in the shuffle?
Stuff like Mel Brooks early days and other comedy which yeah, had some jokes which were not nice but they were great movies.
Even things like Eddie Murphy Raw, Richard Pryor's stand up specials and things we will never see the like again because people are on egg shells which is down right sad.

Really? We get massively popular comics like Louis CK ruminating on words like Nigger and Faggot.

People have been saying this stuff for years but it didn't stop stuff like Chappelle Show existing. There are a lot of black comedians like Kat Williams that try to emulate the Pryors and Murphys, but they aren't making it as big not because they're being more PC, it's just they aren't as good.

I mean consider the thread we're in. It's a massively popular show that involved a principal character getting his dick chopped off and eaten by his captor. People blow this type of stuff way out of proportion. There is still a ton of entertainment being made that probably wouldn't be if we're "walking on egg shells" all the time like this line of thought suggests.

 

[royalan]

Ramsey didn't eat Theon's dick. He sent it to his father.

 

[Corpekata]

Ramsey didn't eat Theon's dick. He sent it to his father.

Oh yeah I guess that Gif gets shown so much I sort of combined the two.

 

[Lothar]

How was it a shock scene? Is it shocking that a psychotic freak like Ramsay can rape someone? Really? That's a shock to you? The dude that tortured Theon, broke his soul, and chopped off his dick is not capable of rape? Is that what's being argued here?

Jesus, how many times has that been answered.

The essence of it is that it was fake out to the audience. They presented her as a strong transformed character. They went over the top last year showing that she was smart now and crafty enough to come up with a convincing lie on the spot to save Littlefinger, and changing her look which was so in your face it was cheesy at the time. It was her decision to go to Winterfell to avenge her parents, implying she was ready to get involved in some dangerous shit to do it. Littlefinger told her something along the lines of "You've learned a lot from me, you can take this boy, make him yours." In the same episode, she told Miranda "You can't frighten me, this is my home."

It was set up to appear as though she was on an arc of vengeance, possibly play the Margaery role in the Margaery/Joffrey relationship. You never know, maybe LF was telling the truth and he was falling for her. Perhaps since she was a high born that he needs for the north, he would treat her differently. She was going to seduce him.

Nope, fooled you. Not only didn't she manipulate him, she didn't try. She froze up like a deer in headlights and started talking about how kind her previous husband was for not touching her. She did not even have the nerve to tell Theon to get out of the room. She's not going to manipulate him. She's a frightened rape victim and prisoner.

Of course it's the most realistic thing to happen. A teenage girl about to have sex for the first time and have it be with a psycho should be terrified. But this is the same episode that had a fight straight from Xena Warrior princess. Last year, little kids were shooting fireballs at skeletons. Meera last year was about to raped and was unrealistically saved at the last second by arrival of Jon. It's tough to know when they're going for hyper realism.

Now I'm not saying the swerve was bad by itself. That's actually a pretty good troll on the audience. Simply the fact that it's shocking does not make it bad. The questions are does it make a good story for her to be a helpless victim again? Was it done just for shock? Are the audiences getting tired of being tortured? Is too much to rape a character that the audience has watched grow up and be shit on for 5 seasons? Did it make sense for her to agree to marry into the Boltons?

 

[Ri'Orius]

It is when the rape in question was originally for a character that was completely broken after it and wasn't able to ever recover.

Jayne and Sansa are different characters. They can react differently to the same scenario.

 

[kirblar]

Not saying you can't. But a large amount of the outrage I've seen has been saying that it's a subject matter that cannot be addressed in media. Which isn't up to anyone to decide.

The source material addresses it. It's impossible to faithfully adapt it to TV without dealing with it. That's not in question, people are questioning how this has been adapted - as pointed out in the article posted a page back, Jeyne Poole and Sansa have radically different story arcs in the books.

 

[way more]

The source material addresses it. It's impossible to faithfully adapt it to TV without dealing with it. That's not in question, people are questioning how this has been adapted - as pointed out in the article posted a page back, Jeyne Poole and Sansa have radically different story arcs in the books.

Oh, so two characters were composited and that's why people find the rape unearned or distasteful. Edit: I still find the reason people are calling this rape out because Sansa is too pretty of damsel for it to happen to.

 

[Cipherr]

Getting a strong feeling of people trying to tell artists what they can and cannot create. Don't like it. Don't watch it. You can't control the work of someone else, regardless of how it makes you feel.

To be fair, give them a chance? There's a bunch of people saying they are done with the show after this episode. Let them stop watching. Now maybe you have a point if they continue watching anyway despite their announcements to do otherwise and complain about every other murder and atrocity in the shows future. But for now, those people are doing exactly what you suggested, stopping watching it.

:shrug:

 

[Speevy]

RE the link:

As much as I respect this woman, there is no way they could have gotten this characterization right.


Let me go over the potential problems of adapting the material.


-There is an actual Jeyne Poole in the show - People see it as overkill given how much time has been devoted to Ramsay torturing Theon. Another victim needing saving.
-Sansa makes love to Ramsay like a virgin would on her wedding night - this would completely change Ramsay's characterization, which has been flawless to this point.
-Sansa kills Ramsay - They're right. Revenge doesn't justify the rape that proceeded it. It does however have political implications given that Ramsay is now the heir to Winterfell. What this woman doesn't understand is that this show has to dumb down everything because there isn't enough time for complex plot threads. She is right though that D&D should stick to ones that made sense.
-What she said about D and D planning Sansa's rape and laughing about it on set was appalling. I love this show and I'm able to separate artists from art, but if anyone thinks rape is funny, fuck them.
-Sansa is broken by rape - Sansa is broken by everything in this show. As realistic as it is, the show can't go there.
-Sansa manipulates Ramsay in the relationship - The problem here is that Ramsay apparently has no empathy for peoples' feelings. This just seems to make Ramsay want to feed them to dogs. Margaery by contrast perfectly manipulated Joffrey because she told him exactly what he wanted to hear.
-Sansa makes political power plays - This is what I thought they were gonna do. They could have had visitors in Winterfell from nearby northern lords. Sansa meets with them in secret or it's implied that meetings happened off screen. She begins to mobilize troops from the previously demoralized northerners. This is something Sansa could do just by telling her plight. She doesn't need any mastermind.


Overall though, very insightful commentary from a brave victim of rape. I like to believe that Sansa went to Winterfell because Littlefinger had saved her from King's Landing, and you tend to trust people who save your life.

 

[ultron87]

Oh, so two characters were composited and that's why people find the rape unearned or distasteful. Edit: I still find the reason people are calling this rape out because Sansa is too pretty of damsel for it to happen to.

I guess if you want to imagine a reason up that's cool.

 

[Lothar]

Oh, so two characters were composited and that's why people find the rape unearned or distasteful. Edit: I still find the reason people are calling this rape out because Sansa is too pretty of damsel for it to happen to.

Don't know why you would go with "too pretty" instead of "too much like a child" for it to happen to. I can't actually remember ever seeing a child character on TV under 18 be raped on the screen before. Have you seen that?

 

[carlsojo]

I don't get why how Sansa reacts or grows from her experience can somehow be wrong. If it breaks her, that's understandable. If she grows from it and draws on that strength, good for her.

 

[carlsojo]

Don't know why you would go with "too pretty" instead of "too much like a child" for it to happen to. I can't actually remember ever seeing a child character on TV under 18 be raped on the screen before. Have you seen that?

It happened Season 1 with Daenerys and Khal Drogo.

 

[Speevy]

It happened Season 1 with Daenerys and Khal Drogo.

Emilia Clarke was 23 years old when that scene was filmed, and is 28 now. She was at no time portraying the 13 year old from the books. As a matter of fact, her brother even says "You have a woman's body now."

I thought she was some kind of space alien who had just assumed human form when they did that scene.

 

[way more]

I guess if you want to imagine a reason up that's cool.

Let me addendum. For those people who aren't victims of rape and simply internet fans of a violent, sexual, monsters and magic tv show that seems to be the reason. I'm not going to presume to understand the mind of a rape survivor and view media, especially this one, through those lens.

 

[carlsojo]

I thought she was some kind of space alien who had just assumed human form when they did that scene.

That's actually kind of my point. She was very child-like and innocent at that point. Sansa stopped being a child quite a while ago.

 

[Speevy]

I'd imagine that when Theon is knocked off his horse by the Dreadfort soldier and he says "I'm gonna fuck you into the dirt.", this is something that they've done before to prisoners, and would do to Theon many times.

Sallador San jokes about raping Davos Seaworth's son.

Of course, those examples are few and far between compared to the references to sexual violence portrayed against women.