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[way more]

Don't know why you would go with "too pretty" instead of "too much like a child" for it to happen to. I can't actually remember ever seeing a child character on TV under 18 be raped on the screen before. Have you seen that?

So is that the reason? Because her character was underage at the time? I can understand that at least but I will say I never realized she was a child because she is like 19 and looks like this.

Guh, I feel like one of those anime guys defending the sexualization of a 8 year old because it's really a 20,000 year old sex demon who took over that body.

 

[Speevy]

Cersei does actually tell Sansa that she would be willing to let a conquering king rape her to save her life and stay in power.

https://youtu.be/A4TrMopM7aQ?t=515

 

[DuffDry]

From the small bit I've read and seen of this series (first book, part of first season), I've never found it to be anything but aimless, gratuitous, meandering melodrama based purely on shock value and unexpected deaths, so this doesn't surprise me in the least. However, this kind of stuff is par for the course on a show like this so viewers should honestly know what they're getting by now.

Quite frankly, I despise the series, but people are free to enjoy it.

 

[Speevy]

From the small bit I've read and seen of this series (first book, part of first season), I've never found it to be anything but aimless, gratuitous, meandering melodrama based purely on shock value and unexpected deaths, so this doesn't surprise me in the least. However, this kind of stuff is par for the course on a show like this so viewers should honestly know what they're getting by now.

Quite frankly, I despise the series, but people are free to enjoy it.

There's some really class writing and great scenes in the show though, full of intricately woven plots that tie back to scheming that's about 10 layers thick. With respect, I don't think you've read or watched enough of it.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Jayne and Sansa are different characters. They can react differently to the same scenario.

Rape is to be shown as something to be either ignored by the character or overcome. Convenient.

 

[way more]

Rape is to be shown as something to be either ignored by the character or overcome. Convenient.

How do you know it will be ignored or overcome?

 

[ersocaster]

Personally, I don't see a whole lot of people outright saying that rape should never be depicted in media. A lot of the opinion pieces I've read and seen linked in this thread have pointed out that rape IS an unfortunate reality of human society, and shows should be allowed to approach the subject. The problem is a lot of shows (Game of Thrones being one of them), have a history of not treating rape with the weight that it deserves, and tend to throw it in when they want a shocking moment on the show. Rape, for a lot of people, is a grave thing that should be treated a lot more seriously than that, if you're even going to go there.

For me personally, rape scenes are a lot like time travel stories. Sure, they can theoretically be done well. But for the most part you should probably avoid them because you're likely not going to be the person who does it well. And this certainly goes for the GoT's writers at this point.

Being raped is a horrible experience. I personally stood in a court room three years ago to help put a guy away for raping one of my best friends. My girlfriend was raped when she was young. I was sexually assaulted by my cousin when I was young.

As horrible as rape and sexual assault are, they do not deserve special treatment in media. We do not want to start going down the path of censoring media for anything that anyone finds offensive.

 

[DuffDry]

There's some really class writing and great scenes in the show though, full of intricately woven plots that tie back to scheming that's about 10 layers thick. With respect, I don't think you've read or watched enough of it.

I gave GRRM almost 900 pages, that's more than I'd be willing to give a lot of writers that are already trying my patience. With the exception of Tyrion's character, I hated it. When I've already given over 800 pages to a guy who asks for an additional 1000 to finally "get" what he's doing, no thanks. Life's too short. Hope you guys have fun with it. I really don't know why I even bother to share my opinions about the series, since it's so popular and who wants to be that guy anyway, but I guess it's because I've always loved the fantasy genre and absolutely do not want this to be the banner for it. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I doubt I'd ever be willing to read another work of his after that first book.

But hey, Tyrion is a FANTASTIC character. I'll always give him credit for that dude.

 

[royalan]

Being raped is a horrible experience. I personally stood in a court room three years ago to help put a guy away for raping one of my best friends. My girlfriend was raped when she was young. I was sexually assaulted by my cousin when I was young.

As horrible as rape and sexual assault are, they do not deserve special treatment in media. We do not want to start going down the past of censoring media for anything that anyone finds offensive.

I didn't say or imply "special treatment". I said that a lot of people believe that rape in media should be treated with the proper weight and gravity that it deserves. It shouldn't be something that writers flippantly add to a female character's plotline as a quick means to "make them stronger."

 

[ersocaster]

I didn't say or imply "special treatment". I said that a lot of people believe that rape in media should be treated with the proper weight and gravity that it deserves. It shouldn't be something that writers flippantly add to a female character's plotline as a quick means to "make them stronger."

So how did the rest of the season go? I can only assume you saw it considering you know what happens.

 

[royalan]

So how did the rest of the season go? I can only assume you saw it considering you know what happens.

I don't need to have seen the rest of the season to critique a single episode. Critics the world over would be out of work if that were the case.

 

[Lothar]

So is that the reason? Because her character was underage at the time? I can understand that at least but I will say I never realized she was a child because she is like 19 and looks like this.

That's one of the reasons. Our last word on the character's age was 14 when Tyrion asked at the end of Season 3. It has probably not been even 2 years since that time. (That would mean Jon's been back at the wall for 2 years, and Jaime and Brienne returned to King's Landing 2 years ago)

Another is that she started out on the show looking like this

Another is the character's been shit on so much already. People suspend disbelief when watching shows. Remember the Red Wedding reaction videos? We all felt like shit. That's a great and weird thing. Due to the power of stories, people really care about what happens to the characters.

Another is the use of rape as shock value.

Another is that it'll be used to empower her (sexist trope) or she'll brush it off and see it as something to put up with to get revenge. I really don't think either of these will be the case. This is why she has to flee Winterfell or try to get away. She can't put up with it. That would be the worst thing.

 

[way more]

I didn't say or imply "special treatment". I said that a lot of people believe that rape in media should be treated with the proper weight and gravity that it deserves. It shouldn't be something that writers flippantly add to a female character's plotline as a quick means to "make them stronger."

Even in a world where rape is the norm? Isn't her rape only special because she's liked and famous and the waifu of viewers? The only options for women in GoT land are to be raped, to sell your body for sex, or on the off chance become a badass soldier or royalty.

 

[royalan]

Even in a world where rape is the norm? Isn't her rape only special because she's liked and famous and the waifu of viewers? The only options for women in GoT land are to be raped, to sell your body for sex, or on the off chance become a badass soldier or royalty.

Uh...yeah? Even in a world where rape is the norm.

Also, I disagree that Westeros as it is portrayed on TV is a world where rape is the norm. Not everyone is getting raped.

 

[WrenchNinja]

How do you know it will be ignored or overcome?

Because showing rape as a serious violation of a character and showing them as a complete mess from here on doesn't strike me as something they would do after they made Dany fall in love with Drogo, after the crew were not able to agree on whether Cersei was raped or not last season and after using rapes as set dressing for Crasters keep. I don't really think they care about showing the alternative. And if they did, it would completely stop Sansa from ever leaving being a victim. So they can only do the other two.

 

[Ayt]

Uh...yeah? Even in a world where rape is the norm.

Also, I disagree that Westeros as it is portrayed on TV is a world where rape is the norm. Not everyone is getting raped.

I would say that marital rape would be a very common reality for women to have to deal with in that world, particularly amongst the nobility with their arranged marriages.

 

[Speevy]

Walder Frey rapes young girls more than anyone in the seven kingdoms.

It's no surprise that Walda Bolton, being married to an admitted rapist, sees no problem with this arrangement.

GoT is full of rape.

 

[royalan]

I would say that marital rape would be a very common reality for women to have to deal with in that world, particularly amongst the nobility with their arranged marriages.

Marital rape where the husband threatens his wife, intentionally tries to hurt her during sex, and makes the man she's been led to believe murdered her younger brothers watch?

No, I don't think that's a Westeros custom.

 

[Speevy]

Marital rape where the husband threatens his wife, intentionally tries to hurt her during sex, and makes the man she's been led to believe murdered her younger brothers watch?

No, I don't think that's a Westeros custom.

Having random strangers grab the woman to carry her to her marriage bed so the man can deflower his virgin wife whether she wants to right then or not is a Westerosi custom.

 

[Sober]

I didn't say or imply "special treatment". I said that a lot of people believe that rape in media should be treated with the proper weight and gravity that it deserves. It shouldn't be something that writers flippantly add to a female character's plotline as a quick means to "make them stronger."

I think the problem is that the Bolton/Winterfell storyline will only get more broader as the season moves on, so I don't know how much more we might see of Sansa/Theon/Ramsey besides the requisite scenes to move their part of the plot forward. However they want to carry Sansa on from there will have to say a lot from what little time they spend on it, unless they're gonna do another episode focused mostly on them or on the events in the North like they did a few weeks ago.

Honestly at this point I don't know if you really should expect a show like GoT to treat the subject matter that well, because of the nature of the writing staff and the pace of the show. If you want to see a show that perhaps maybe did it better, Reign had a similar plotline (it's a network show too) and they spent a lot of energy and focus on the follow through on the rape of one of their characters rather than brushing it away after a few episodes.

Because showing rape as a serious violation of a character and showing them as a complete mess from here on doesn't strike me as something they would do after they made Dany fall in love with Drogo, after the crew were not able to agree on whether Cersei was raped or not last season and after using rapes as set dressing for Crasters keep. I don't really think they care about showing the alternative. And if they did, it would completely stop Sansa from ever leaving being a victim. So they can only do the other two.

It's a complicated situation for everyone involved, so I hope they treat it with a bit more subtlety than "he raped her agency away, Sansa does nothing now". I think she will get past it in her own way if the previews for the next episode say anything.

 

[way more]

Uh...yeah? Even in a world where rape is the norm.

Also, I disagree that Westeros as it is portrayed on TV is a world where rape is the norm. Not everyone is getting raped.

Any prince from any land could point to a women and take her. We haven't seen the opposing view of this on GoT.

Every women without power is at the hands of men in the series. Unless you are highborn you only can hope you are put into a warrior training program because women are nothing in the world.

Marital rape where the husband threatens his wife, intentionally tries to hurt her during sex, and makes the man she's been led to believe murdered her younger brothers watch?

No, I don't think that's a Westeros custom.

ha, westeros as the western civilized bunch.

 

[Ratrat]

Having random strangers grab the woman to carry her to her marriage bed so the man can deflower his virgin wife whether she wants to right then or not is a Westerosi custom.

Hey, it happens to men too. It's considered normal and usually among friends or even family.(Catelyn notes she should be out there ripping Edmures clothes off too) Its only horrifying when your surrounded by enemies like Sansa in Kings Landing.

What happens after that and how is the real issue.

Any prince from any land could point to a women and take her. We haven't seen the opposing view of this on GoT.

Every women without power is at the hands of men in the series. Unless you are highborn you only can hope you are put into a warrior training program because women are nothing in the world.

Dorne, The wildings etc. And rape is still a crime, hence all those guys at the wall.

 

[way more]

Hey, it happens to men too. It's considered normal and usually among friends or even family.(Catelyn notes she should be out there ripping Edmures clothes off too) Its only horrifying when your surrounded by enemies like Sansa in Kings Landing.

What happens after that and how is the real issue.

Dorne, The wildings etc. And rape is still a crime, hence all those guys at the wall.

Am I in a debate where I have to point out how the privileged class rapes more women in the fantasy world of Game of Thrones?

I admit defeat. I can't prove that rape is common in GoT.

 

[Ratrat]

Am I in a debate where I have to point out how the privileged class rapes more women in the fantasy world of Game of Thrones?

I admit defeat. I can't prove that rape is common in GoT.

Well, Dorne is part of Westeros is it not? Women have privileges and laws protecting them from abuse, even from their husbands. We know wildling women kill men they don't want. We know rapists are sent to the wall or killed. Your fixed statement is closer to the truth than your initial post, so good work.

 

[way more]

Well, Dorne is part of Westeros is it not? Women have privileges and laws protecting them from abuse, even from their husbands. We know wildling women kill men they don't want. We know rapists are sent to the wall or killed. Your fixed statement is closer to the truth than your initial post, so good work.

Good, I would hate to have confused Dorne for Westeros and had a totally inappropriate line of argument against rape.

 

[Ratrat]

Are you sure? still sound a bit confused. It's nitpicky, but you don't have to go from saying it' happens a lot' to it 'happens to everyone.'

 

[Tim the Wiz]

I gave GRRM almost 900 pages, that's more than I'd be willing to give a lot of writers that are already trying my patience. With the exception of Tyrion's character, I hated it. When I've already given over 800 pages to a guy who asks for an additional 1000 to finally "get" what he's doing, no thanks. Life's too short. Hope you guys have fun with it. I really don't know why I even bother to share my opinions about the series, since it's so popular and who wants to be that guy anyway, but I guess it's because I've always loved the fantasy genre and absolutely do not want this to be the banner for it. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I doubt I'd ever be willing to read another work of his after that first book.

But hey, Tyrion is a FANTASTIC character. I'll always give him credit for that dude.

What works of fantasy fiction do you like? This statement needs to be put in context.

 

[badb0y]

Yep. Everyone's arguing they can't imagine Ramsay raping someone. You totally got it man.

Then what's the problem? Rape wasn't even depicted on screen, romanticized, or prolonged. It made perfect sense for it to happen too, there was no way Ramsay was not raping Sansa that night one way or another.

It was a terrible point. The poster treated the discussion like the only way people can be shocked are if it's a twist or surprise.

It would not be out of character for Ramsay to flay the skin off a 7 year old. Doesn't mean a scene of it would not be disgusting and shocking to some people.

Ok, but the rape wasn't depicted, it was implied. We never see Sansa get raped, it happens off screen. As for finding something disgusting or abhorrent that's entirely normal especially for this situation. What I don't understand is how people are outraged over it, as if there was any other logical way this would have gone down. I found Ramsay's torture of Theon disgusting but I never felt outraged that it happened because it made sense, it was part of Ramsay's characterization as well as Theon's character arch.

Jesus, how many times has that been answered.

The essence of it is that it was fake out to the audience. They presented her as a strong transformed character. They went over the top last year showing that she was smart now and crafty enough to come up with a convincing lie on the spot to save Littlefinger, and changing her look which was so in your face it was cheesy at the time. It was her decision to go to Winterfell to avenge her parents, implying she was ready to get involved in some dangerous shit to do it. Littlefinger told her something along the lines of "You've learned a lot from me, you can take this boy, make him yours." In the same episode, she told Miranda "You can't frighten me, this is my home."

It was set up to appear as though she was on an arc of vengeance, possibly play the Margaery role in the Margaery/Joffrey relationship. You never know, maybe LF was telling the truth and he was falling for her. Perhaps since she was a high born that he needs for the north, he would treat her differently. She was going to seduce him.

Nope, fooled you. Not only didn't she manipulate him, she didn't try. She froze up like a deer in headlights and started talking about how kind her previous husband was for not touching her. She did not even have the nerve to tell Theon to get out of the room. She's not going to manipulate him. She's a frightened rape victim and prisoner.

Of course it's the most realistic thing to happen. A teenage girl about to have sex for the first time and have it be with a psycho should be terrified. But this is the same episode that had a fight straight from Xena Warrior princess. Last year, little kids were shooting fireballs at skeletons. Meera last year was about to raped and was unrealistically saved at the last second by arrival of Jon. It's tough to know when they're going for hyper realism.

Now I'm not saying the swerve was bad by itself. That's actually a pretty good troll on the audience. Simply the fact that it's shocking does not make it bad. The questions are does it make a good story for her to be a helpless victim again? Was it done just for shock? Are the audiences getting tired of being tortured? Is too much to rape a character that the audience has watched grow up and be shit on for 5 seasons? Did it make sense for her to agree to marry into the Boltons?

Doesn't matter if it was shown or not. Doesn't matter if she struggled or not. Ramsay was going to rape her. It's the reality of his character, he's a sadistic bastard who gets what he wants, always. As for Sansa, I think she was ready for the sex even if she didn't want to go through with it (this is also a form of rape) but what caught her off guard was Theon being present in the room. Despite what their relationship is now, growing up Theon was essentially Sansa's brother and having him their to witness the event is another one of Ramsay's sadistic plays. The man clearly gets pleasure from inflicting pain on others. I have not heard a single argument that would indicate that the rape was going overboard. As for Sansa being stronger as a character I think she is a stronger character but I felt that in the context of the situation there was no way she was going to outmaneuver Ramsay. Her reluctance would just make it a more pleasurable act for him.

 

[SatansReverence]

Don't know why you would go with "too pretty" instead of "too much like a child" for it to happen to. I can't actually remember ever seeing a child character on TV under 18 be raped on the screen before. Have you seen that?

I'm pretty sure Dakota Fanning got raped/molested on screen in a Movie she did.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Ok, but the rape wasn't depicted, it was implied. We never see Sansa get raped, it happens off screen. As for finding something disgusting or abhorrent that's entirely normal especially for this situation. What I don't understand is how people are outraged over it, as if there was any other logical way this would have gone down. I found Ramsay's torture of Theon disgusting but I never felt outraged that it happened because it made sense, it was part of Ramsay's characterization as well as Theon's character arch. .

To be quite honest, it didn't have to go down at all as it's show made material. They could Have prolonged this wait to the marriage till Stannis shows up avoiding the entire situation.

And logic hasn't exactly been this season's strong point as with this very same episode we had the ridiculous Dorne and Kings Landing sections of the episode.

 

[Ratrat]

To be quite honest, it didn't have to go down at all as it's show made material. They could Have prolonged this wait to the marriage till Stannis shows up avoiding the entire situation.

And logic hasn't exactly been this season's strong point as with this very same episode we had the ridiculous Dorne and Kings Landing sections of the episode.

They need a reason for Theon to rescue Sansa and exit Winterfell. Basically he is Ser Dontos 2.0
Sansa's story is going in circles.

 

[Lothar]

Doesn't matter if it was shown or not. Doesn't matter if she struggled or not. Ramsay was going to rape her. It's the reality of his character, he's a sadistic bastard who gets what he wants, always. As for Sansa, I think she was ready for the sex even if she didn't want to go through with it (this is also a form of rape) but what caught her off guard was Theon being present in the room. Despite what their relationship is now, growing up Theon was essentially Sansa's brother and having him their to witness the event is another one of Ramsay's sadistic plays. The man clearly gets pleasure from inflicting pain on others. I have not heard a single argument that would indicate that the rape was going overboard. As for Sansa being stronger as a character I think she is a stronger character but I felt that in the context of the situation there was no way she was going to outmaneuver Ramsay. Her reluctance would just make it a more pleasurable act for him.

I agree with everything with you said here. But what I was saying in the quoted post is it was a surprise because the show built her up like she would be like Margaery. Clearly they did that. The last thing LF told her was she learned from him and she was ready for this. He was full of shit. Again I'm not saying it's a bad thing to fool us. I actually like this particular realistic aspect of it. It was a shock to the audience that she wasn't prepared for this just like it was a shock for her. If she was confident and did seduce him, that would have came off as hokey like the Sand Snakes scene. However they do hokey often. So, who knew for certain which way they way would play it? (This show had a shirtless Ramsay fighting Ironborn and chasing them away with dogs) Seems like most didn't think they would play it like that.

Honestly before the scene started I thought she would have willing sex with him and then Miranda would do something out of jealously and he would do something terrible to Miranda. That would be the rumored controversial scene.

Then when it started and it wasn't going down as consensual, I thought Theon would snap as soon as Ramsay started ripping her clothes off. That would make sense. It's not Jeyne Poole here. It's like his sister. Come on, Reek.

 

[Dreadnought]

What the hell did you guys expect? New Sansa to use her wit and talk her way out of not having sex? No, she went through with the marriage willingly knowing that she would have to consummate the marriage.

There's no way Sansa could have gotten out of it so she went through with it. Could she have made the situation better? No, she couldn't. She had never been with a man before so she didn't know what to do.

The whole "They built up her character and then destroyed it!!!" Is complete bullshit.

 

[Ratrat]

What the hell did you guys expect? New Sansa to use her wit and talk her way out of not having sex? No, she went through with the marriage willingly knowing that she would have to consummate the marriage.

There's no way Sansa could have gotten out of it so she went through with it. Could she have made the situation better? No, she couldn't. She had never been with a man before so she didn't know what to do.

The whole "They built up her character and then destroyed it!!!" Is complete bullshit.

Would you still feel that way if she's rescued next episode without having accomplished anything? If she ends the season still a pawn waiting for a new marriage?

She could have made the slightest protestation against Theon being there. Remember when she told Tyrion she would NEVER willingly sleep with him on their wedding night. How about telling Myranda she couldn't frighten her 10 minutes ago? Sansa even defied Joffrey back in season 1. ("Maybe he'll bring me your head") Her reaction is not unreasonable but it's easy to see why people were expecting something else.

I blame the stupid Darth Sansa shit last season.

 

[Speevy]

There is only one interesting way to do this. The Boltons win the war against Stannis, Roose remains warden of the north to Littlefinger's dismay, and Sansa bears many children for her evil husband. She learns what makes him tick and is able to keep from being fed to dogs.

It would fall in line with all the advice Cersei gave her about putting up with vicious men while loving your children.

 

[excelsiorlef]

There is only one interesting way to do this. The Boltons win the war against Stannis, Roose remains warden of the north to Littlefinger's dismay, and Sansa bears many children for her evil husband. She learns what makes him tick and is able to keep from being fed to dogs.

It would fall in line with all the advice Cersei gave her about putting up with vicious men while loving your children.

That's interesting to you?

That would be horrid storytelling.

 

[Lothar]

There is only one interesting way to do this. The Boltons win the war against Stannis, Roose remains warden of the north to Littlefinger's dismay, and Sansa bears many children for her evil husband. She learns what makes him tick and is able to keep from being fed to dogs.

It would fall in line with all the advice Cersei gave her about putting up with vicious men while loving your children.

In the case the family that slaughtered hers would be forever linked with the Starks. I can't think of a worse outcome.

What the hell did you guys expect? New Sansa to use her wit and talk her way out of not having sex?

See my post above yours.

"Honestly before the scene started I thought she would have willing sex with him and then Miranda would do something out of jealously and he would do something terrible to Miranda. That would be the rumored controversial scene."

No, she went through with the marriage willingly knowing that she would have to consummate the marriage.

She did. Yet it still turned into a rape scene. That's the surprise. A surprise for her and a surprise for the audience.

There's no way Sansa could have gotten out of it so she went through with it. Could she have made the situation better? No, she couldn't. She had never been with a man before so she didn't know what to do.

The whole "They built up her character and then destroyed it!!!" Is complete bullshit.

The argument is that it may have destroyed her character arc that looked like it was taking her from victim to victor. If it didn't, then it'll present rape as a momentary setback. Or something that makes her stronger and really want revenge. Heh, there's a lot of satisfying ways they can take this.

 

[Speevy]

That's interesting to you?

That would be horrid storytelling.

In the case the family that slaughtered hers would be forever linked with the Starks. I can't think of a worse outcome.

Exactly what about once bitter enemies being allied is misaligned with medieval history?

The Mad King burned men alive and is forever linked with Dany.

Roose and Ramsay will eventually die, but their sons don't have to be butchers.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Exactly what about once bitter enemies being allied is misaligned with medieval history?

The Mad King burned men alive and is forever linked with Dany.

Roose and Ramsay will eventually die, but their sons don't have to be butchers.

Jesus christ.You think a storyline where a girl is raped over and over again, bears her rapists' children and tokerates his barbarism because omg she loves her babies is an interesting storyline. Like holy fuck.

 

[Speevy]

Jesus christ.You think a storyline where a girl is raped over and over again, bears her rapists' children and tokerates his barbarism because omg she loves her babies is an interesting storyline. Like holy fuck.

That's exactly what Cersei did to become queen. I can link you the scene if you want.

Also, given that Sansa is having sex (consensual or not), it is not inconceivable that she becomes pregnant at some point.

 

[excelsiorlef]

That's exactly what Cersei did to become queen. I can link you the scene if you want.

No thanks. That's revolting to do once let alone twice.

 

[Lothar]

Exactly what about once bitter enemies being allied is misaligned with medieval history?

The Mad King burned men alive and is forever linked with Dany.

Roose and Ramsay will eventually die, but their sons don't have to be butchers.

If their bloodline is forever mingled with the Starks, then they won, even after death.

Also, given that Sansa is having sex (consensual or not), it is not inconceivable that she becomes pregnant at some point.

Another gigantic problem with Sansa deciding to marry into the Boltons.

 

[Ayt]

Would you still feel that way if she's rescued next episode without having accomplished anything? If she ends the season still a pawn waiting for a new marriage?

She could have made the slightest protestation against Theon being there. Remember when she told Tyrion she would NEVER willingly sleep with him on their wedding night. How about telling Myranda she couldn't frighten her 10 minutes ago? Sansa even defied Joffrey back in season 1. ("Maybe he'll bring me your head") Her reaction is not unreasonable but it's easy to see why people were expecting something else.

I blame the stupid Darth Sansa shit last season.

I'm sure Ramsay would have reacted well to that. Hell, the writers could have used Sansa protestations as a catalyst to have Ramsay force Theon to take part like he apparently does in the book in the similar scene. That would have been a very logical reaction for Ramsay to Sansa defying him in that way.

Sansa was at his mercy and she knew it.

 

[Speevy]

If their bloodline is forever mingled with the Starks, then they won, even after death.

Unfortunate for those rooting for the good guys, but when have the good guys ever really won out in the end in this show?

Another gigantic problem with Sansa deciding to marry into the Boltons.

It's done. She married into their family. You cannot undo it. You can either keep harping on the problems it presents or just see where it goes.

Imagine if I hated the red wedding so much that I spent season 4's thread talking about how Robb Stark deserved to succeed. What's done is done.

 

[WrenchNinja]

The red wedding made sense.

 

[excelsiorlef]

What's done is done so let's make Sansa a broodmare who has babies from rape and learns to love it.

Brilliant. :|

 

[Speevy]

What's done is done so let's make Sansa a broodmare who has babies from rape and learns to love it.

Brilliant. :|

Sansa's entire character is the deconstruction of the fairy tale princess who believes all she needs is prince charming.

I'm just posing one storyline for her that is more realistic than bloody revenge and less trite than another cross-country escape.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Sansa's entire character is the deconstruction of the fairy tale princess who believes all she needs is prince charming.

I'm just posing one storyline for her that is more realistic than bloody revenge and less trite than another cross-country escape.

Please stop. You're digging yourself deeper and deeper.

What you propsed is revolting and disturbing and not in a challenging/it makes for good television sort of way. It would abhorrent writing to go that route. That you're harping on "realism" doesn’t make it any better.

 

[Speevy]

The red wedding made sense.

It made sense, but it still put the Boltons in Winterfell and Freys in charge of the Riverlands.

In the show, both the Boltons and Freys are portrayed as rather weak, wouldn't you say? Why would two weak houses hold their lands without the backing of the Lannisters, which they currently don't have in either the show or the books.

 

[Lothar]

Unfortunate for those rooting for the good guys, but when have the good guys ever really won out in the end in this show?

Right, I'm not saying it won't happen. It'll just be another stomp on the Starks.

It's done. She married into their family. You cannot undo it. You can either keep harping on the problems it presents or just see where it goes.

Then we might have a scene of her drinking moon tea. I can't imagine she wants a Ramsay Bolton baby.

Imagine if I hated the red wedding so much that I spent season 4's thread talking about how Robb Stark deserved to succeed. What's done is done.

Robb is dead in season 4. Sansa is still alive. We have to puzzle over her decisions to see what she's all about.