Please stop. You're digging yourself deeper and deeper.
What you propsed is revolting and disturbing and not in a challenging/it makes for good television sort of way. It would abhorrent writing to go that route. That you're harping on "realism" doesnt make it any better.
Digging myself in deeper in deeper? I don't write this show and you don't get to tell me how I can speculate on it. I've proposed this theory as well as many others. I post more in the GoT topic than anyone else and I love to talk about what could or might happen. 99% of it never comes to pass, but in talking about it, we often get to some greater truths.
A lot of things in this show were and continue to be quite revolting and disturbing. Some of them may not have even made for great television. I'm just offering one possible outcome. The fact that it offends you so much is baffling.
Fine, Theon stabs Ramsay and hobbles with Sansa and Brienne away. Everyone goes into hiding in the Riverlands and Sansa leaves everyone behind.
I'm also fond of the theory that Sansa might use newfound power to betray Littlefinger.
Put me on ignore if my thoughts on possible storylines bother you so much.
Digging myself in deeper in deeper? I don't write this show and you don't get to tell me how I can speculate on it. I've proposed this theory as well as many others. I post more in the GoT topic than anyone else and I love to talk about what could or might happen. 99% of it never comes to pass, but in talking about it, we often get to some greater truths.
A lot of things in this show were and continue to be quite revolting and disturbing. Some of them may not have even made for great television. I'm just offering one possible outcome. The fact that it offends you so much is baffling.
Fine, Theon stabs Ramsay and hobbles with Sansa and Brienne away. Everyone goes into hiding in the Riverlands and Sansa leaves everyone behind.
I'm also fond of the theory that Sansa might use newfound power to betray Littlefinger.
Put me on ignore if my thoughts on possible storylines bother you so much.
I'm just happy we live in 21st century where rape (even and especially in marriage) is against the law. I think a lot of you folks would be surprised at just how limited women's rights were in the middle ages.
Yall are viewing this from a 21st century viewpoint, where rape (and murder) is much less common. Yes, the show is fictional, but historically, women had like zero rights in the 12th century. And in a marriage, men could do whatever they wanted to a woman. Did you know there are parts of the world where this is still common. In many backward, ignorant countries a women don't have the rights that they do in developed nations.
I'm actually surprised that some people are so shocked at this episode. Of all the disgusting and revolting things that has happened on this show, this wasn't even in the top ten.
And I really don't understand how people find rape more offensive than murder. With all due respect, your value system is all out of whack if you truly believe that.
How's about Sansa meets Stannis? Because Theon and Jeyne Pool ended up Stannis in the books. Stannis wins against the Boltons and installs Sansa in charge of Winterfell. Best case scenario. And it makes sense.
Book spoilers for how Theon and Jayne Poole end up.
I'm just happy we live in 21st century where rape (even and especially in marriage) is against the law. I think a lot of you folks would be surprised at just how limited women's rights were in the middle ages.
Yall are viewing this from a 21st century viewpoint, where rape (and murder) is much less common. Yes, the show is fictional, but historically, women had like zero rights in the 12th century. And in a marriage, men could do whatever they wanted to a woman. Did you know there are parts of the world where this is still common. In many backward, ignorant countries a women don't have the rights that they do in developed nations.
I'm actually surprised that some people are so shocked at this episode. Of all the disgusting and revolting things that has happened on this show, this wasn't even in the top ten.
Are you under the impression that people are shocked just because it was a rape? And not because it was because it was a rape of Sansa, a main character who is still a child in the show? If she was murdered, it would have been worse.
Re: Marital rape. When Tywin told Tyrion to take Sansa, he was aghast saying "I will not rape her." That tells us marital rape is still considered terrible in GoT.
How much is rape portrayed or discussed in US primetime TV? Some of the blogs and podcasts I've listened to this week have been very eye opening for me, mainly as a Brit.
It just seems that a show here like Eastenders has tackled the subject and violence of rape at 730pm in a prime time slot and not faced the backlash Game of Thrones has this week.
My other thoughts ask why the scene has become a tipping point for some people, while Jamie Crippling a boy, Theon flaying, burning and hanging two children was ok, Theon himself having his dick cut off..or the numerous other violent and usually uncalled for acts that the series has become infamous for didn't push the needle.
Maybe it's the writers and director not seemingly understanding the power of the scene, but it still find the scene it's self completely in tone with the rest of what's gone before.
It made sense, but it still put the Boltons in Winterfell and Freys in charge of the Riverlands.
In the show, both the Boltons and Freys are portrayed as rather weak, wouldn't you say? Why would two weak houses hold their lands without the backing of the Lannisters, which they currently don't have in either the show or the books.
The Lannister's power is slipping and the Frey's and Bolton's hold is tenuous. The point of comparison between being critical of Robb's failure and Sansa's continued torture sounds kind of off base. One is based off foreshadowing of Robb's poor decisions as a horny teenager and young commander and the other is based off a really dumb plan by the show writer's so called puppet master in Littlefinger.
Are you under the impression that people are shocked just because it was a rape? And not because it was because it was a rape of Sansa, a main character who is still a child in the show? If she was murdered, it would have been worse.
So raping Sansa is worse than raping a minor character?
For me it's just people are people. They are all fictional. It's not like she's my real sister or something. I have never cared for anyone on a television show.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the outrage. I guess if people are viewing like she is your sister (for pretend), then it makes them angry. I thought people were saying it was like offensive against women or something.
My other thoughts ask why the scene has become a tipping point for some people, while Jamie Crippling a boy, Theon flaying, burning and hanging two children was ok, Theon himself having his dick cut off..or the numerous other violent and usually uncalled for acts that the series has become infamous for didn't push the needle.
The big issue I have with this scene is after everything she went through with Jeffrey, she started to be more confident and started to learn the game. I felt like she was past getting taken advantage of . I figured she would not stand for it. She just took it and didn't fight back. I just didn't expect through all this growth to just be reset with this scene. Yes the book scene is way worse. But it's just disappointing to see everything she has learned just go to waist. Of course she could be planning something and just going along with it. Who knows we will have to see. Theon( I don't know the actors name) did an incredible acting job.
Did any of it ever cause a site like the Mary sue to pull any 'promotional' articles? I think it's fair to argue that people were never this mad at got before.
So raping Sansa is worse than raping a minor character?
For me it's just people are people. They are all fictional. It's not like she's my real sister or something. I have never cared for anyone on a television show.
What do you get out of watching fiction? I'm sorry to hear that. When the Red Wedding happened, were you just like "ok" or "cool"? People suspend disbelief. There's a reason everyone set cameras up on their friends and family members for the RW to get their reactions. As soon as the show comes on or I'm opening up a book, I'm using imagination and I'm make believing it is real.
I've seen people online say that they felt like a family member was raped.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the outrage. I guess if people are viewing like she is your sister (for pretend), then it makes them angry. I thought people were saying it was like offensive against women or something.
I think the issue is that D&D, who are notorious for adding "edgy" stuff to GRRM's writing, have never created a storyline this massive before.
All of their previous additions have been small in scope, but this addition is tied into what this entire season is based on, and people have scrutinized it to death.
Imagine if Sansa marrying Ramsay was in the books. People would just say "Well that was stupid in the books too so I'm okay with it."
Would you still feel that way if she's rescued next episode without having accomplished anything? If she ends the season still a pawn waiting for a new marriage?
If they somehow make a plotline where Sansa decides willingly to go to Winterfell, and then five minutes later she willingly gets the fuck out, it'll be a terrible storyline, for the only takeaway would be "Sansa thought she could endure it, but couldn't \ Sansa didn't actually plan anything at all".
How much is rape portrayed or discussed in US primetime TV? Some of the blogs and podcasts I've listened to this week have been very eye opening for me, mainly as a Brit.
It just seems that a show here like Eastenders has tackled the subject and violence of rape at 730pm in a prime time slot and not faced the backlash Game of Thrones has this week.
My other thoughts ask why the scene has become a tipping point for some people, while Jamie Crippling a boy, Theon flaying, burning and hanging two children was ok, Theon himself having his dick cut off..or the numerous other violent and usually uncalled for acts that the series has become infamous for didn't push the needle.
Maybe it's the writers and director not seemingly understanding the power of the scene, but it still find the scene it's self completely in tone with the rest of what's gone before.
The reason is that our society also has a problem with rape, and doesn't have a problem (Intended as "Something that happens often enough to be a problem of our society", not "Something that we take issue with") with cutting dicks off, pouring molten gold on people, pushing children off towers and the whole collection of the shit that happened. Rape is a very real act which exists in the real world. Pouring molten gold on someone's head is insane psychopath stuff that doesn't really happen.
Mind you, i very much think that as any problem we have as a society, it should be talked about, understood and condemned, not simply swept under the rug every possibility - and the wing of feminism that condemns every and all portrayal of rape in any context is doing the cause a disservice.
Because in this case, the portrayal is a woman willingly walking into terrible horrors, acknowledged to be terrible horrors, for her own reasons and by her own will. Unless the payoff is completely idiotic and\or we don't actually get told what Sansa wants to do in Winterfell, i find it as appropriate a case for a rape portrayal as there could be on television.
All in all, i've yet to read a convincing case for why it's a bad portrayal that hurts the character or that has worrying implications due to the cultural influence of fiction, but there's been more than enough people trying to make emotional arguments that boil down to "I cared about sansa, and the fact that she's been raped hurts me, you didn't care about sansa and YOU'RE A MONSTER."
Sansa is my favourite character in asoiaf, especially since she's gone to the Vale.
If they somehow make a plotline where Sansa decides willingly to go to Winterfell, and then five minutes later she willingly gets the fuck out, it'll be a terrible storyline, for the only takeaway would be "Sansa thought she could endure it, but couldn't \ Sansa didn't actually plan anything at all".
But that is the storyline, unless she thought she would go to Winterfell to be a rape victim. Littlefinger said in the show that he doesn't know who Ramsay is and the writer said he was telling the truth. The only reason they would have that is to show they didn't know what they were getting into. Ramsay told LF he would never harm her, so LF thought Sansa could manipulate him. Ramsay lied.
I don't like that they went with rape but now that they did it, she definitely needs to try to get out of there. It would be doing a disservice to how bad rape is and it wouldn't be realistic if she wanted to stay and endure it.
But that is the storyline, unless she thought she would go to Winterfell to be a rape victim. Littlefinger said in the show that he doesn't know who Ramsay is and the writer said he was telling the truth. The only reason they would have that is to show they didn't know what they were getting into. Ramsay told LF he would never harm her, so LF thought Sansa could manipulate him. Ramsay lied.
I don't like that they went with rape but now that they did it, she definitely needs to try to get out of there. It would be doing a disservice to how bad rape is and it wouldn't be realistic if she wanted to stay and endure it.
Sansa has gone to winterfell knowing she'd be marrying the son of a monster, who's partly responsible for killing a good chunk of her family.
There was roughly a 0% chance she'd love the moron she'd get married to, and she knew it.
There was roughly a 100% chance she'd have to have sex with said moron, and she knew it.
She KNEW she'd have to have sex with someone she didn't want to, and that's what we call rape.
Perhaps she didn't expect how terrible the Bastard of Bolton would be, but she knew she was going to get raped. That doesn't make it any less rape, but it makes it an horror she willingly walked into, for her own reasons.
Taking the storyline as "Stupid girl goes where she shouldn't have, gets raped, shocked and escapes\dies" would be beyond terrible. I truly trust that's not what D&D have in store.
Sansa has gone to winterfell knowing she'd be marrying the son of a monster, who's partly responsible for killing a good chunk of her family.
There was roughly a 0% chance she'd love the moron she'd get married to, and she knew it.
There was roughly a 100% chance she'd have to have sex with said moron, and she knew it.
She KNEW she'd have to have sex with someone she didn't want to, and that's what we call rape.
Perhaps she didn't expect how terrible the Bastard of Bolton would be, but she knew she was going to get raped. That doesn't make it any less rape, but it makes it an horror she willingly walked into, for her own reasons.
Taking the storyline as "Stupid girl goes where she shouldn't have, gets raped, shocked and escapes\dies" would be beyond terrible. I truly trust that's not what D&D have in store.
But I don't know how you can think that's not already the current storyline? She didn't walk in expecting to be brutalized and humiliated. I think that would be more terrible if that was the case. LF told her Ramsay had fallen for her. The show made a point to say they didn't Ramsay. That clearly means she did not expect the horror. Sansa is surround by potential rescuers. Brienne, Theon, the old woman that told her to light a candle.
Everyone can separate the two. Most of us appreciate how fiction has metaphors and illustrations for reality. It's the entire purpose of fiction. Do you just dismiss all fiction as having no cultural or academic value?
Everyone can separate the two. Most of us appreciate how fiction has metaphors and illustrations for reality. It's the entire purpose of fiction. Do you just dismiss all fiction as having no cultural or academic value?
Some people make themselves easy to dismiss based on the way they react to things that, in the end, despite whatever they make people feel, do not exist.
It's illegitimate dismissal in some cases, but I don't think this is one of those cases.
What do you get out of watching fiction? I'm sorry to hear that. When the Red Wedding happened, were you just like "ok" or "cool"? People suspend disbelief. There's a reason everyone set cameras up on their friends and family members for the RW to get their reactions. As soon as the show comes on or I'm opening up a book, I'm using imagination and I'm make believing it is real.
I watch tv when I'm eating dinner. I have a very limited imagination. I'm more of New York Times/Wall Street Journal kinda guy. I usually prefer reading non-fiction over fiction.
I watch GOT for three main reasons. The political intrigue, an interesting medieval/fantasy setting, and guys getting stabbed in the face.
When I saw the red wedding I was indeed in shock. Which feels good because normally tv doesn't make me feel anything. When I saw this marital rape scene it made me feel sad that this does happen in the real world which scary to think about. Do I care about a fictional girl named Sansa? Not in the slightest because she is not real.
At least we no longer have to debate about which direction they're taking Sansa in now.
Most of my posts in this thread have been against it, but going with last week, that's the best possible direction. She's not brushing it off. So far, it didn't make her stronger.
Like I said
Lothar said:
I don't like that they went with rape but now that they did it, she definitely needs to try to get out of there. It would be doing a disservice to how bad rape is and it wouldn't be realistic if she wanted to stay and endure it.
Everyone can separate the two. Most of us appreciate how fiction has metaphors and illustrations for reality. It's the entire purpose of fiction. Do you just dismiss all fiction as having no cultural or academic value?
You are talking about a show where people who are cut in half come back to life and frozen skeletons roam the earth.
A guy who cut someone's penis, enjoys torture and is a psychopath has forceful sexual intercourse with his bride and it's shocking? It's offensive? Seems pretty logical to me.
There is no ideological warfare on display here. Just people being comically sensitive. Everything offends them. Everything. Gotta use some common sense sometimes.
You are talking about a show where people who are cut in half come back to life and frozen skeletons roam the earth.
A guy who cut someone's penis, enjoys torture and is a psychopath has forceful sexual intercourse with his bride and it's shocking? It's offensive? Seems pretty logical to me.
There is no ideological warfare on display here. Just people being comically sensitive. Everything offends them. Everything. Gotta use some common sense sometimes.
I found the pregnant woman getting stabbed in the belly repeatedly to be shocking. And the dude getting his skull crushed as well.
This rape scene was mild at best. People using words like "graphic" is just hilarious. You get a close up of two character's faces and some accompanying noises. Calm down.
In the context of this universe I don't know that you could even call it rape. Her marrying the guy is basically giving consent for the rest of her life.
That isn't common sense. That is simply ignoring that some people have different perspectives and realities that make some topics sensitive. I'm glad you don't have any "trigger warnings" but you don't have to be smug about it when others do.
And honestly, this wasn't a "trigger" for me or everyone who was bothered by the scene. I simply didn't feel like watching yet another character get needlessly shat on like this, especially when all signs pointed to a change. The source material is harsh enough without the show adding to it. I can deal with that but I also can accept that there are people who feel differently without having to feel superior to them.
I found the pregnant woman getting stabbed in the belly repeatedly to be shocking. And the dude getting his skull crushed as well.
This rape scene was mild at best. People using words like "graphic" is just hilarious. You get a close up of two character's faces and some accompanying noises. Calm down.
In the context of this universe I don't know that you could even call it rape. Her marrying the guy is basically giving consent for the rest of her life.
I found the pregnant woman getting stabbed in the belly repeatedly to be shocking. And the dude getting his skull crushed as well.
This rape scene was mild at best. People using words like "graphic" is just hilarious. You get a close up of two character's faces and some accompanying noises. Calm down.
In the context of this universe I don't know that you could even call it rape. Her marrying the guy is basically giving consent for the rest of her life.
Funny I see this argument but never about anything else. I don't see people saying Ned's beheading was a legal execution. Hell, nothing Joffrey did was torture or abuse because he was the king and his word was law.
That isn't common sense. That is simply ignoring that some people have different perspectives and realities that make some topics sensitive. I'm glad you don't have any "trigger warnings" but you don't have to be smug about it when others do.
And honestly, this wasn't a "trigger" for me or everyone who was bothered by the scene. I simply didn't feel like watching yet another character get needlessly shat on like this, especially when all signs pointed to a change. The source material is harsh enough without the show adding to it. I can deal with that but I also can accept that there are people who feel differently without having to feel superior to them.
Think of me as Winnie the Pooh. I am oblivious to it because I don't go in there expecting some form of social commentary. You think I'm smug, I'm just writing words: it's a sequence in a tv show that follows a logical pattern.
Scene might bother you, but it's nothing to be offended about.
Imagine if tomorrow, Cleveland loses the game because the other team scored more points because they followed a gameplan and stuck to it. Now you like Lebron and you really hope he's gonna get a ring for that team, things are looking up since he came back. Are people gonna be offended because Lebron was on the losing side? Offended at what? Upset, yes. Sad, certainly. But offended? Nah. It's just a game like Game of Thrones is just a tv show. It happens.
I hope the next thing that comes up isn't a reappropriation to state how someone is justifying rape and being haughty. That would be silly.
PS: The trigger warning stuff, don't worry about it. It's not what you think I was going for.
Think of me as Winnie the Pooh. I am oblivious to it because I don't go in there expecting some form of social commentary. You think I'm smug, I'm just writing words: it's a sequence in a tv show that follows a logical pattern.
Scene might bother you, but it's nothing to be offended about.
Imagine if tomorrow, Cleveland loses the game because the other team scored more points because they followed a gameplan and stuck to it. Now you like Lebron and you really hope he's gonna get a ring for that team, things are looking up since he came back. Are people gonna be offended because Lebron was on the losing side? Offended at what? Upset, yes. Sad, certainly. But offended? Nah. It's just a game like Game of Thrones is just a tv show. It happens.
I hope the next thing that comes up isn't a reappropriation to state how someone is justifying rape and being haughty. That would be silly.
PS: The trigger warning stuff, don't worry about it. It's not what you think I was going for.
I think it's funny that you went for the "offended" stuff when I never said anything about being offended by the scene. I didn't like it because it sent a curveball through what I thought was Sansa's plot. I thought the showrunners were moving her forward, not setting her back again. That is nothing like being "offended" at the situation.
But, even so, I don't really feel the need to make it seem like those that do have more personal reasons for disliking the scene are stupid for feeling that way. I don't have to agree but I also don't have to be smug about it not effecting me in the same way.
Funny I see this argument but never about anything else. I don't see people saying Ned's beheading was a legal execution. Hell, nothing Joffrey did was torture or abuse because he was the king and his word was law.
i havent watched GoT in a while and havent seen the scene in question but the world in the show would be viewed as barbaric and unforgiving and unfair where life is extremely cheap. the thing is with something like this is people view rape more for how awful it is in real life compared to any other kind of violence. i think given the world its in people should be more prepared thats something like this may actually happen and maybe this is a bad thing to say but in a show that has so much violence i dont think anything should really be off limits. but if the scene stinks it stinks and i also dont think people are wrong for feeling how they feel as well
I'm sure Ramsay would have reacted well to that. Hell, the writers could have used Sansa protestations as a catalyst to have Ramsay force Theon to take part like he apparently does in the book in the similar scene. That would have been a very logical reaction for Ramsay to Sansa defying him in that way.
Well, Sansa hasn't done a logical thing since Season 1 so I'm not sure why your expecting that of her. We have seen her grow slightly bolder and independent though, and people were expecting more of that. Again, don't care either way, just trying to explain some of the anger people have with the storyline.
I think it's funny that you went for the "offended" stuff when I never said anything about being offended by the scene. I didn't like it because it sent a curveball through what I thought was Sansa's plot. I thought the showrunners were moving her forward, not setting her back again. That is nothing like being "offended" at the situation.
But, even so, I don't really feel the need to make it seem like those that do have more personal reasons for disliking the scene are stupid for feeling that way. I don't have to agree but I also don't have to be smug about it not effecting me in the same way.
Wasn't talking about your point my man. I thought we were both referring to the point at hand, the issue brought to our attention by the OP. Groups of people being irritated to such an extent by a work of fiction that has no ideological bearings that they are publicly deriding the show.
That to me sounds like a bunch of people with an agenda. They are sticking to it, to their credit. Cultish behaviour.
I'm just happy we live in 21st century where rape (even and especially in marriage) is against the law. I think a lot of you folks would be surprised at just how limited women's rights were in the middle ages.
Yall are viewing this from a 21st century viewpoint, where rape (and murder) is much less common. Yes, the show is fictional, but historically, women had like zero rights in the 12th century. And in a marriage, men could do whatever they wanted to a woman. Did you know there are parts of the world where this is still common. In many backward, ignorant countries a women don't have the rights that they do in developed nations.
I'm actually surprised that some people are so shocked at this episode. Of all the disgusting and revolting things that has happened on this show, this wasn't even in the top ten.
And I really don't understand how people find rape more offensive than murder. With all due respect, your value system is all out of whack if you truly believe that.
We had similar dramas in video games topics and people were more offensed over skimpy outfits but decapitation/murder was totaly fine and enjoyable.
Those hypocrites said : "as long as it doesn't involde children, it's fine" You're kidding me ?!! Murder is murder!
saw the episode. I honestly don't know, or can't understand why people are making a big fuss about it. Only from America, too, because I haven't heard shit about it in my country
saw the episode. I honestly don't know, or can't understand why people are making a big fuss about it. Only from America, too, because I haven't heard shit about it in my country
I couldn't tell you. Especially when this isn't the first rape or the worst thing to happen in the show. Maybe because it's a feminist favorite character?
I have said that and I stand by that opinion, Ned's beheading was a legal execution, he had publically confessed to high treason and Joffrey genuinely believed himself to be Robert's son and rightful heir, he did not know the truth. Executing Ned was politically stupid but it was not illegal!
