lol?
Dany? Arya? Brienne? Yara? Hell, Cersei, Catelyn, Margaery, Olenna are all more in line of what people consider strong characters.
More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)
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Dany? Arya? Brienne? Yara? Hell, Cersei, Catelyn, Margaery, Olenna are all more in line of what people consider strong characters.
Because it is a huge departure from her book storyline. And because it is starting to look like D&D just keep adding this stuff to episodes regardless of how story is impacted.
tkscz
Member
Well I did add a question mark for a reason.
I typed out a ridiculously long paragraph but Jesus
Well, it sounded really strange and I have no idea why you would even think that or are blaming the reaction on 'femisits'
I talked about this with some of my female acquintances who watch GoT. I still disagree with the critique (especially the puritanist arguments that are based on the books) but I understand the underlying elements. It is not necessarily the scene itself but the way people see it as part of our wider culture? Sexual assault happens frequently compared to these other brutal acts. To use it as entertainment even though we havent even dealt with it properly in our society does seem somewhat problematic.
On the other hand it is not like people are making excuses as to what happened in the scene. We know it was a bad moment, something that is quite frequent in this show.
On the other hand it is not like people are making excuses as to what happened in the scene. We know it was a bad moment, something that is quite frequent in this show.
Aside from the book argument, which is very valid my biggest problem is that at the end of last season they set up Sansa to be the player of the game. But nope nothing changes as Ramsay is just going to keep being evil, and Theon is going to now finally have the courage to rescue her!!!
One strength of the ASOIAF series is how they subvert fantasy cliches, but this is about as big of a her rescue cliche in the works as possible. The spearwives plot was excellent but this is awful.
One strength of the ASOIAF series is how they subvert fantasy cliches, but this is about as big of a her rescue cliche in the works as possible. The spearwives plot was excellent but this is awful.
A bit LTTP but whatever.
A lot of the problems with the scene have already been touched upon, but what makes the scene even more troublesome from a feminist point of view (apart from everything already mentioned) is the fact that Sansa isn't shown. Okay, they ruined the character, made a scene that makes no sense besides shocking people, but even during that scene where someone (a female person) gets raped, what do we see? Reek's face. Reek is suffering, it's so hard for that man to watch what is happening before him, let's all feel sorry for Reek and not show the gruesomeness of what Sansa is going through. The male perspective is shown to be more important, which ruins the impact the scene could have had (it's still a bad scene and completely unnecessary).
I wasn't sure if this was already mentioned, the thread is too long, only went through the first few pages, sorry.
A lot of the problems with the scene have already been touched upon, but what makes the scene even more troublesome from a feminist point of view (apart from everything already mentioned) is the fact that Sansa isn't shown. Okay, they ruined the character, made a scene that makes no sense besides shocking people, but even during that scene where someone (a female person) gets raped, what do we see? Reek's face. Reek is suffering, it's so hard for that man to watch what is happening before him, let's all feel sorry for Reek and not show the gruesomeness of what Sansa is going through. The male perspective is shown to be more important, which ruins the impact the scene could have had (it's still a bad scene and completely unnecessary).
I wasn't sure if this was already mentioned, the thread is too long, only went through the first few pages, sorry.
I'm sure people will tell you this is because they didn't want to go so far as show it. The truth is, that it IS about Theon. It's his story from his perspective. HIS character is being developed and HIS story will go forward because of this experience. It's his decision to help Sansa, light the candle. She has nothing.
But being a player doesn't mean you're going to be successful or that she can't be victimized anymore.
There might have been in regards to how boring and time consuming it was. Otherwise people might have remembered Theon as the guy who betrayed Robb, killed Ser Roderick, Maester Lewyn and two innocent children just he could impress his shitty dad.
At the time, there were a lot of complaints about how long it dragged on. But until it got to the really sadistic shit, people had no reason to complain. Theon was responsible for the deaths of a lot of people at that point, and he betrayed the Starks. His torture was a fitting punishment for what he'd done.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
Why is this still being discussed? Honest question.
It's come to the point where any substantial change from the last season was thrown out the window entirely. It's pointless, she made no ground whatsoever. I haven't watched yesterdays episode yet but it's quite clear she isn't going to do anything to improve her situation. She will wait for Theon, Brienne, or Moonboy for all I know come to rescue her from the big bad Boltons.
No, if anything people were probably happy to see it being done to Theon.
You don't know that. From the previews,
It looks like she's threatening Theon to make him do something.
I can't believe I'm starting to defend the storyline after everything I said earlier in the thread. I've changed from hate to being mixed about it over the course of the thread.
I'm pretty sure we would have a similar but slightly different debate had they shown the actual act. People would have been upset with it being unnecessarily graphic and how it would have been better to spare the viewers from seeing anything. They chose to do a different take on it that was still very effective.
Similarly the debate about book changes seem kindof dubious. Sure, if you care about Sansa, it will be more upsetting (personally there not a character in the entire show/books I care less about). But in regards to depictions of rape in general, it really isn't any better in the books. There it's a much worse scene with a minor character, whose only storyline revolves around the rape. I'm sure feminists would love that.
nelsonroyale
Member
Theon's 'development' has become pretty heavy handed...from a narrative perspective. His actor is doing an excellent job, but exposition is becoming overkill with him. We know he is degraded, we know Ramsay is a sick fuck, get on with it...
Tye The Czar
Member
It wasn't seen as necessary.
The idea of rape in fiction leaves a very bad taste in many an audience's mouths. It's usually recommended to either handle with care or just replace it with something else.
afternoon delight
Member
This is an example of bad writing.
There's the storytelling perspective that you're taking a strong character people like and casting her aside, destroying her arc, to be used as a minor character to prop up Theon simply in an effort to be more shocking. There's the feminist perspective saying pretty much the same thing. Taking a strong female character that was gaining agency, making her a damsel in distress yet again, to prop up a male character. No side is complaining that they're just showing rape period. Rape happens all the time in the show.
I think it's more to do with Sansa in general. 5 seasons of her getting fucked over. It made the rape hit harder than other ones previous. The deviation from the book also made people feel like HBO just tossed it in there
Not fan of this attitude that's practically a fiction reader's version of burying your head in the sand and pretending bad things don't exist. People have been able to handle very disturbing and sad content in fiction for a long, long time. It's up to the individual consumer of the fiction to educate themselves about their own tastes and limits.
For comparison, there's been discussion about this for decades in fantasy fiction. The deconstructionist fantasy trilogy Covenant Chronicles
stars a nihilistic leper as a messianic figure who gets ported into fantasy land as a mystical savior, doesn't believe the place even exists and rapes a girl when his dead penis starts working again thinking he's in a dream. He spents years paying for it as the consequences spiral out of control causing horrible things through generations in a land that may or may not actually exist, as he believes the dark overlord figure in the books represents his own dark subconscious mind.
Dan and David, the show's creative team. Basically the people who make all the decisions.
HarryKS
Member
Here's the thing. You are damned three ways here:
1. If they don't show anything at all, people will assume that nothing bad happened.
2. If they show what Ramsay is doing, then you're just using rape as titillation on screen.
3. If you show that it's happening, but focus on some other element (Theon) then you're making him the focus of the rape instead of her.
But you have to do something to show that it happened, or people will argue that it didn't. Even if you just have the characters talk about it later (which would be weird and tedious) you have to acknowledge it.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Having agency and being strong doesn't make you immune to rape. In fact this seems like a terrible message tantamount to victim blaming - only weak and powerless women get raped.
You could go with 1, and do what they did in the next episode and show her with bruises. I think most people would get it.
I'm glad you discussed it with your friends and got a new perspective on the situation.
But when did that happen? I personally was focused on the wedding and wedding night being about Sansa. At what point were we supposed to realize her being raped wasn't really about her? And what kind of message is that? Sansa has been a main character since season one.
I highly doubt that the people who were upset at the scene are pretending that rape doesn't exist. If anything, rape is a hell of a lot more real to some of us than it is to others. It is the people who see rape as a real threat who actually are a bit more sensitive to it being used willy-nilly in popular entertainment.
I swear, some of the discussion about "real life" and these mystical "feminists" who just hate anything you guys like is really irritating.
That would obviously be the smart thing to do, if they absolutely MUST go the "Sansa is a victim again" route. Guess it wasn't obvious enough for them.
Nappuccino
Member
I think the best option would have been to show Sansa at the start, Theon/Reek for a little bit, and then show the view outside the window just overhearing the sounds. It wouldn't have let the rape be titillating, and would have established Theon/Reek's anguish of the moment at the same time reminding the audience that this horrible moment is happening to Sansa and really about her.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Yep, this is the main problem I've seen discussed: the rape of Sansa is just for the further development of a dude. It's a common problem with rape storylines in entertainment. Same with "manic pixie dream girl" stuff, where the cool, cute lady only exists plotwise so the dude can find himself or something.
I have to agree here. I love the books but they do seem too gratuitous with the depictions of rape (it's overboard and I want to tell Martin that I get it already, it's a sucky world to be a female and it seems overdone for the point he's trying to make). I don't think the tv show is honestly any different in that regard to the books. But I am upset they changed it from a fake to the real Sansa. If I remember correctly theon keeps quiet about the fact it's not Sansa and missing the opportunity to show that is missing a huge part of character development for his character.
Ramsay has done the following:
- Ripped off a fingernail off a person (which was shown)
- Flayed people
- Cut off Theons penis
- Fed a wounded girl he hunted to dogs.
I understand why people are more sensitive to this, because it's more real to a lot of people than any of the above, but the above are just as awful things.
- Ripped off a fingernail off a person (which was shown)
- Flayed people
- Cut off Theons penis
- Fed a wounded girl he hunted to dogs.
I understand why people are more sensitive to this, because it's more real to a lot of people than any of the above, but the above are just as awful things.
CyclopsRock
Member
It strikes me that it's a bit premature to say whether or not the scene was necessary, no? I mean, some people made the argument at the time that Theon's tortue scenes were gratuitous, but given the nature of his transformation into "Reek", I think showing the level of depravity that they did was necessary to make that transformation beleiveable. If we just saw Ramsay give him a few kicks and then suddenly the previously-strong-and-boisterous theon is a quivering wreck on the dog stables, I don't think we'd have really believed it. But that wasn't immediately obvious at the time. I've read the books and it's clear that this whole story line is so off-piste that none of us know how it's gonna end up, but I hold out hope - and certainly a reasonable expectation - that there is or could be totally reasonable repercussions to this act that will only be believeable as a result of it having occured. Ie she'll do something or say something or whatever that wouldn't make sense or be believeable without this rape scene. Maybe they won't and it'll turn out it was gratuitous, but we don't know that at all yet.
CyclopsRock
Member
Mostly right -
It's Arya, not Sansa who is claimed to be the bride, though we do indeed know it's not really her
Wasn't it necessary for Theon to vouch for the girl being the real Arya since he had supposedly grown up with her? Him saying it was her made the northerners believe it.
CyclopsRock
Member
From what I remember, all the people that really mattered all basically knew it was a sham but went along with it because it was - in the short term at least - the least bad option. But I think Theon saying it was her and then giving her away at the wedding was seen as an extra stamp of legitimacy.
I haven't read it for a while and, tbh, I was bored to fucking tears so I found myself reading pages and then realising I hadn't actually absorbed any of it, so that might not be right. But that's how I remember it.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's not about who's more awful. It's about who's being used for the storytelling of another character. It's a common problem with women and rape in entertainment.
Sansa has been a plot device the entire time. Whether for Ned, Joffrey, Tyrion, Little Finger, and now Ramsay.
The only female characters that aren't plot devices imo are Arya, Cersei, and Danny. So maybe that's the issue, not enough non-plot device female characters?
Thanks. I really was slogging my way though the last books myself. I read all 5 in just a few week's time and, let's just say I've mostly been really happy with D&D's more concise adaption.
GameGuru59
Banned
Even assuming the rape does not advance Sansa's character, (which you are doing- unless you've somehow managed to watch the rest of the series) what's wrong with this in and of itself? Is it that it seems as though the women and the act of raping them are being used as plot devices? Men are used as plot devices all the time in similar ways.
It seems to me, that because rape is still a problem in our culture today, people are asking authors to take care in using it and tip-toe around the weight of the issue. I completely reject this argument. Game of Thrones in particular, is very gruesome, and could trigger PTSD in war veterans with its violence. Saving Private Ryan did just that when it came out. No one told Speilburg to tone down his violence for the sake of veterans. If you don't like it, don't watch.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Is there a manic pixie dream dude trope I'm not aware of?
It's more about showing respect to 51% of the population by treating the subject with the gravity that Saving Private Ryan treated war. You're just making up the "tip-toe around the weight of the issue" part.
GameGuru59
Banned
Well, people are saying they wished Theon had "hulked out" during the scene and save Sansa (nevermind that this already happened to Sansa when people in the capital tried to rape her and The Mountain's brother saved her)- something that would have been extremely inadvisable considering both of them would have probably been immediately killed had Theon killed the guy. That's pretty much wishing for a trope (a trope that's already occurred)
When you have to take into consideration what criticism others might deliver to you work as an artist, you're tip-toeing. And you can trade Inglorious Bastards for Saving Private Ryan and you've got a similar issue. I didn't hear anyone raise all hell about that.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Women in fiction get the same repetitive storylines and plots or serve to further the cause of a dude. It's part of the whole reason the Bechdel test exists to show just how sad their representation is in popular media. When dudes don't have that character or growth variety, I'm sure we'll hear about that much more, too.
GameGuru59
Banned
The series, nor the season is over yet. You don't know what purpose the rape served in the story at all.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Yeah it was pretty telling that in the next episode, Sansa was crying in her room and Theon marched in and said don't worry I can't take seeing you like this, I am going to place a candle in the high tower and call for help. And then Sansa told him not to do it because she was afraid of what would happen. But he did it anyway, and Sansa was saved.
This isn't what happened
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