Support NeoGAF

[ZombieSupaStar]

Maybe they will ban abusers like amazon does.

 

[CambriaRising]

I didn't say that refunds were bad. I said abusing the system was bad. Things like "oh, damn, I didn't really mean to click 'buy'!" or "well, I'll never get around to playing this". People shouldn't be using this to cover up their crappy purchasing habits. That's all I mean. This is quite an experiment going on.

It's going to happen no matter what on a small scale, it comes with the territory in consumer marketplaces.

But this line of thinking willfully ignores that PC piracy exists. No one is going to abuse this system that way when they could literally just download the game if they wanted.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Out of 18 sales 13 refunded in just last 3 days. That’s 72% of purchases. Rate of refunds before was minimal,” they tweeted."

Oh pfff...
really?!
Wow, who would have thought that the refund rate was minimal before refunds were really possible, wow.
Also, 18 sales? Great number for a statistic. Anyway, how much did the game sell before? Did it sell 20 copies on average? Or 5? This is a completely useless number without more context.

 

[Hip Hop]

Maybe they will ban abusers like amazon does.

I'm pretty sure that's what will happen. They will do so as they see fit, and rightfully so.

So yeah, if anything, if I ever ask for one, it will be as a last resort sort of thing.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

70% of people getting refunds is where the market should have always been? Somehow, I don't think that's accurate at all.

This is the initial wave of refund requests. Nothing to be alarmed about.

 

[Sober]

Seriously bad for developers who:

- Are making cheap games that last less than two hours
- Are making niche games of any kind at all
- Are making narrative games
- Are making games where art isn't the focus

Seriously good for game buyers who:

- Are used to getting everything cheap or free forever

You act like there isn't an audience for niche games or narrative driven games or avant garde stuff. What, you think those devs just tricked their audience into playing them? Or that people trying to abuse this aren't gonna lose the ability to make refunds.

I think we'll be fine when the dust settles.

 

[Omega]

The people abusing them will be screwed in the long run so no big deal.

 

[The Cowboy]

Also, 18 sales? Great number for a statistic. Anyway, how much did the game sell before? Did it sell 20 copies on average? Or 5? This is a completely useless number without more context.

Not sure if this helps.

http://steamspy.com/app/317510

 

[Kenai]

Seriously bad for developers who:

- Are making cheap games that last less than two hours
- Are making niche games of any kind at all
- Are making narrative games
- Are making games where art isn't the focus

Seriously good for game buyers who:

- Are used to getting everything cheap or free forever

Why are you trying to spin a very basic refund policy as some outrageous plight on developers? They aren't special snowflakes that deserve more pardons than any other business.

 

[statham]

many indie games can be beaten in two hours, its like watching a movie then asking for a refund at the end. Steam needs Devs to post average beat times, then allow maybe 1/4 of that time and under to qualify for a refund.

 

[ItsTheNew]

It'll be interesting to see how people really take in indie games once that barrier to get your money back is available is gone. Small, simple playing games are going to get hard.

 

[kurahador]

The people abusing them will be screwed in the long run so no big deal.

You think Valve will ban a paying customer? Not a chance in hell.

 

[LurkerPrime]

Cliff “Cliffski” Harris of Democracy and Gratuitous Space Battles fame echoed that concern, albeit with a significantly lower refund percentage. He tweeted:

“Bloody hell steam refund rate has gone from 0.09% to 17%. Methinks people are taking the piss. Here comes DRM again sadly.”

Overreactions aren't just for consumers, folks.

 

[vazel]

Abusing this system for only 2-hours of gameplay is pretty stupid. There are better ways to 'demo' games if those people are so inclined.

 

[paulogy]

So what prevents me from buying a handful of games for less than $1 each through a Humble Bundle, redeeming the Steam keys, then "returning" the games at full price (or even sale price for that matter)?

Other than morals.

 

[jerry1594]

Can't wait to see the rates after the summer sale

 

[Hugstable]

I'm guessing these are recent refunds and not people just trying to get refunds on a game from 2011? Did they have a sale recently for Revenge of the Titans?

 

[The Cowboy]

You think Valve will ban a paying customer? Not a chance in hell.

No they will do what the refund policy states, they will block them from refunding.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Does the Steam refund system basically completely fuck SteamSpy's data? Obviously it counts whenever a game is on a user's profile or does the refund remove the game from a profile entirely?

 

[CambriaRising]

So what prevents me from buying a handful of games for less than $1 each through a Humble Bundle, redeeming the Steam keys, then "returning" the games at full price (or even sale price for that matter)?

Other than morals.

The fact that there is no steam transaction to refund.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Oh pfff...
really?!
Wow, who would have thought that the refund rate was minimal before refunds were really possible, wow.
Also, 18 sales? Great number for a statistic. Anyway, how much did the game sell before? Did it sell 20 copies on average? Or 5? This is a completely useless number without more context.

Yeah, I think that's ridiculous haha.

You know... If only 18 people are buying your game over three days in the first place, is it really surprising that a lot of them who actually bought it weren't happy?

 

[Mikey Jr.]

If people don't like a product they should be able to get their money back.

I'll tell the theatre next time I go see a movie.

"Didn't like movie, money back please"

 

[HariKari]

So what prevents me from buying a handful of games for less than $1 each through a Humble Bundle, redeeming the Steam keys, then "returning" the games at full price (or even sale price for that matter)?

Other than morals.

Valve would know, because those keys were generated for the bundle. Same goes for anything sold outside of Steam. I doubt that works.

I'll tell the theatre next time I go see a movie.

"Didn't like movie, money back please"

It works for some people. The money is in the concessions. They'd rather have you come back than not at all.

 

[hamchan]

It's going to happen no matter what on a small scale, it comes with the territory in consumer marketplaces.

But this line of thinking willfully ignores that PC piracy exists. No one is going to abuse this system that way when they could literally just download the game if they wanted.

Pretty much. Anyone who wants to abuse the system and get mass refunds will have a much easier time just pirating the games and is probably already doing so.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Cliff “Cliffski” Harris of Democracy and Gratuitous Space Battles fame echoed that concern, albeit with a significantly lower refund percentage. He tweeted:

“Bloody hell steam refund rate has gone from 0.09% to 17%. Methinks people are taking the piss. Here comes DRM again sadly.”

Overreactions aren't just for consumers, folks.

Holy shit. So in an ecosystem where refunds were only possible by jumping through hurdles to contact Valve and/or the developer, and even then it was up to the developer, everything is ok if the refund % is .09. Now that there's a system in place that lets you refund easily and it's jumped up to 17% that means it's the customers/valves fault?

Yeah ok buddy. Your game is so damn perfect that it probably bewildered you that some people wanted a refund.

 

[ItsTheNew]

I'll tell the theatre next time I go see a movie.

"Didn't like movie, money back please"

2 hrs gametime =/= a 2 hr movie. c'mon now.

 

[Blizzard]

You think Valve will ban a paying customer? Not a chance in hell.

They claim that peple who abuse the system may lose the ability to request refunds.

Valve has made some other weird experiment(s) though, like the Skyrim paid DLC thing that very quickly got reverted, with Valve actually giving an apology where they said they messed up. Who knows how exactly the refund change will end up affecting everyone.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Seriously bad for developers who:

- Are making cheap games that last less than two hours
- Are making niche games of any kind at all
- Are making narrative games
- Are making games where art isn't the focus

Seriously good for game buyers who:

- Are used to getting everything cheap or free forever

It also benefits a larger segment of game buyers who have such protections enshrined in the laws of several countries but I guess you aren't really interested in talking about consumer rights given how you've stacked your lists.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Abusing this system for only 2-hours of gameplay is pretty stupid. There are better ways to 'demo' games if those people are so inclined.

This, somebody who just wants to play everything they can their hands on for free would have an easier time just pirating. Trying to get your complete fill of a game within two hours is not going to be feasible for most things on Steam.

 

[dukeoflegs]

I wonder if this will push developers to go to a freemium market? It gets them away from game purchases but they can still be sneaky and make money off IAPs. That brings up IAP can those be refunded?

 

[Imbarkus]

Isn't this just the final step in the grand plan of crowd-sourcing the curation of games on the system? The remediation for when the system fails?

 

[Disgraced]

This system should've been in place before the mod shenanigans and it should've applied to mods.

 

[CambriaRising]

I'll tell the theatre next time I go see a movie.

"Didn't like movie, money back please"

You do realize you can do this in a lot of theaters right?

Also games aren't movies and the theatre experience is not applicable to purchasing ownership of a product. It's false equivalence.

 

[Gaz_RB]

So people are using refunds like demos?

 

[Maintenance]

I'll tell the theatre next time I go see a movie.

"Didn't like movie, money back please"

IIRC IAPs can be refunded too, but only if you bought via Steam, of course.

I wonder if this will push developers to go to a freemium market? It gets them away from game purchases but they can still be sneaky and make money off IAPs. That brings up IAP can those be refunded?

You can do this in many places, so uh, yeah.

 

[Archaix]

The fact that there is no steam transaction to refund.

Yeah, sure, but what if I just made up any old bullshit with an obvious answer and pretended like it was a valid concern? What then?

 

[KarmaCow]

This says more about the previous refund policy and process than the new one.

 

[The Cowboy]

So people are using refunds like demos?

No one knows, all we know is people are getting refunds - we have no idea if its because they wanted to just try the game or because the game sucked or didn't work etc.

 

[LurkerPrime]

So people are using refunds like demos?

With the state of PC demos, this shouldn't be shocking. Sometimes people just want to know if they can even run the thing.

This says more about the previous refund policy and process than the new one.

There wasn't one before. It was basically ask support to refund you, and if you're really lucky they'll help you out one time only.

 

[Tigress]

I think many people are just trying it to see if it works.

I would want to know if sales increased before I woudl think it was this. If many people were experimenting with it, you'd think you'd also see an increase in sales from people buying games they normally wouldn't if they weren't testing out a refund policy.

Well duh, now that people can they will.

Stores constantly have people buying Bluray players/movies/games/tvs and returning them the next day. Said stores are still in business too. Steam will adapt.

If our store had a 70% return rate I am not sure we'd make any profit. And I'd have a lot of stuff to return back to the shelves.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Refunds on Steam seem like a good idea at first until you think about it more and realize how much it hurts developers.

And then you think about it more and realize that's ridiculous and it doesn't. It's a good idea.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

So people are using refunds like demos?

I assume that's how it will be for the first few months.

 

[HariKari]

So people are using refunds like demos?

Part of that is legitimate, to see if the game works on your system at all. If you can't fulfill the other part - making a game that's worth keeping after 2 hours - you should probably work on that before complaining about the refund system.

 

[Corpekata]

So people are using refunds like demos?

No. These are almost certainly all purchases from several months ago. Nobody's spending 10 bucks to try out Revenge of the Titans for a day.

 

[ArjanN]

2 hrs gametime =/= a 2 hr movie. c'mon now.

Don't really see a meaningful difference in this context. Especially since most of Puppy games stuff is arcade-like games you can probably beat in 2 hours as long as you only care about going through it once.

 

[The Llama]

The quote is: Refunds have skyrocketed 30 to 70%.

That is, the previous rate of refunds has increased by a factor of 1.3 to 1.7. NOT that 70% of sales are refunded. Given that previously it was nealrty impossibel to get a refund, yes, this isn't out of line with the reality that some people will purchase your game and not like it/it won't run..

Holy crap I am dumb >_>

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Yeah, sure, but what if I just made up any old bullshit with an obvious answer and pretended like it was a valid concern? What then?

What do you mean? If the game wasn't purchased through Steam then I'm pretty sure you can't get a refund for it. Every transaction is saved on your account so they and you know what you have bought, when, for what and how long you played it.

 

[domlolz]

Overreactions aren't just for consumers, folks.

what a turd, what is drm going to do? dont refund my game or else.

 

[Bluth54]

So what prevents me from buying a handful of games for less than $1 each through a Humble Bundle, redeeming the Steam keys, then "returning" the games at full price (or even sale price for that matter)?

Other than morals.

Because Valve knows those were keys redeemed on Steam not bought through Steam.

 

[Iadien]

I have paid for far too many games that I have hated, but I doubt I'll refund anything going forward, unless I feel misled or something.