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[CambriaRising]

Dummies should be punished for preordering garbage because they got "hyped up"

If people have an internet connection to use Steam they should do their goddamn research before buying something, no excuses.

These sorts of responses are hilarious and ignore real world situations to the fullest.

Neither of you have bought something thinking you would like it and then didn't? Ever? It's like a weird elitism complex. "Those dumb dumbies, if they only used google. HA!"

 

[Fantastapotamus]

It's funny to me that every time something remotely pro-consumer happens people are worried and unsure if they deserve this.

Here's a potentially incomplete list of games on Steam that don't require Steam:

http://steam.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games

Ha, didn't know about that. Weird.
Live and learn.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Dummies should be punished for preordering garbage because they got "hyped up"

What about games that you might be into, that other people enjoyed but just wasn't your cup of tea? Should you be punished for taking a chance and being out £30?

For example, I like racing games so I bought Driveclub, people recommended it to me and I thought I would like it but I don't, if I could get a refund for it then I probably would have.

 

[Zomba13]

"refund rate has skyrocketed to anywhere between 30 and 70 percent"

Well, duh, before you almost couldn't get a refund! Now you can.

This is the market bouncing back, to the place it should have always been. I think in the long run this is going to be a good thing for MOST devs out there. Having a comprehensive refund policy, gives customers confidence in making purchases from Steam. People will be more willing to give games a shot if they know that if they don't like the game or it doesn't run well on their systems, that they can get their money back.

This is the number one complaint from my more casual friends who I got into PC gaming. They love the low prices, but they often times refuse to try new things, and they hate it when a game doesn't run well on their systems and their stuck.

Yeah thing like "oh no! everyone is getting a refund now!" means shit when before you couldn't even get a refund (without going through a lot of hassle, you'd really want one to get one).

 

[maxiell]

It's a nice feature for Steam users, but the end result is going to be developers focusing more on consoles.

 

[Maintenance]

It's a nice feature for Steam users, but the end result is going to be developers focusing more on consoles.

Have you heard about something called used games? Gamestop? Sharing discs?

 

[Gipsy Danger]

It's a nice feature for Steam users, but the end result is going to be developers focusing more on consoles.

Yes, that's definitely what it's going to be. Why worry about PC when you can just rip off console users with no fear of repercussions?

 

[Kintaro]

Only in video games can people argue against a customer's right to a refund for a defective or unliked product.

Tighten up those games devs. Customers have some power back and it was long overdue.

Also, do you know how fucked up it is to think that devs would somply "make the first two hours padded" or whatever else people are coming up with? That is some hateful thoughts to have about the people in your hobby! Lol

 

[The Cowboy]

It's a nice feature for Steam users, but the end result is going to be developers focusing more on consoles.

No it won't, how can people even say this.

Your saying devs will focus less on PC releases because we can now get refunds on Steam, and they will instead focus more on consoles which can not only return games in a lot of places for a refund but can also sell them off if they can't get a refund (and they can even rent games).

 

[hamchan]

I think a lot of these developers are really lucky to have flooded the Steam marketplace with their broken games for a long time now. Really, this refund policy should have been in place before Valve opened the floodgates for developers.

 

[Nordicus]

Have you heard about something called used games? Gamestop? Sharing discs?

I thought those were only fairy tales to scare off growing up console developers!

 

[Servbot24]

Exactly, this isn't a debate. And yet we're the ones who are always called entitled; refunds are one of the most basic consumer rights.

Refunds for defective products, yes. Refunds because "lol nevermind" has never been an established customer right.

 

[Blizzard]

Have you heard about something called used games? Gamestop? Sharing discs?

How do any of those 3 apply to digital distribution on consoles? Unless consoles offer a refund service equivalent to Steam's that I'm not aware of.

 

[yuraya]

Valve probably doesn't care. The money goes back into your wallet and you will spend it on something else. They will always get their cut.

As for the developers. Well the consumer is always right at the end of the day. The consumer decides the direction of the market as well not some developer or corporation. Its a system that is needed. Way too many broken or bad games released nowadays.

I can go to walmart right now and buy a ps4. Play it for like a month (or wtvr) and return it to get my money back. It is what it is and it exists everywhere. Developers are gonna have to deal with it.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Refunds for defective products, yes. Refunds because "lol nevermind" has never been an established customer right.

So you don't believe that a consumer shouldn't get a refund for a product they don't enjoy and therefore have wasted up to £40/$60 for?

 

[Dr. Black Jack]

These sorts of responses are hilarious and ignore real world situations to the fullest.

Neither of you have bought something thinking you would like it and then didn't? Ever? It's like a weird elitism complex. "Those dumb dumbies, if they only used google. HA!"

I've bought plenty of games I don't like. The difference is that I didn't demand that the retailer/distributor/etc give me back money for my poor judgment and instead used the mistake to better shape my buying habits.

Seriously, you have an entire world's worth of instant information at your fingertips. There's not one single goddamn reason to buy something outside of your tastes ever again and if you do it's your own fault.

 

[Kerned]

Refunds for defective products, yes. Refunds because "lol nevermind" has never been an established customer right.

You have got to be kidding with this shit.

I can buy a shirt, take it home, decide I don't like it after all and return it to the store for a full refund. That's quite literally what you are describing as "lol nevermind" and it is absolutely a basic, well-established consumer right.

 

[Kintaro]

Refunds for defective products, yes. Refunds because "lol nevermind" has never been an established customer right.

Bullshit. I do it all the tome here at work. At least 30 times a day for Gamestop. Its not eatablished in digital download space but times change. This is a good tuing.

 

[LurkerPrime]

I just worry for the inevitable when a collective from 4chan or similar ilk find an indie dev whose ego they want to destroy by purchasing a game en masse, getting that dev's spirits up, then immediately all ask for refunds. Maybe that's just my natural inclination to find exploits speaking. But we do already see people bitter enough to buy a game just to leave slander and spiteful comments on their store page. Hopefully Valve will find a way to efficiently spot and remove abuse, but I'd be lying if I didn't say my faith in them wasn't close to null.

Trying to troll a game developer like that would only lead to articles about the game, leading to sympathy purchases, promotion, and ultimately awareness of the game's existence. It wouldn't work.

The really fun thing about that quote is that if you have a look at the community hub for Gratuitous Space Battles on Steam, 9 out of the top 15 threads are people having problems with the game. But no, it's the refund system that is the problem.

Well. I like GSB; it's a cool game, but definitely not for everyone. However, his conclusion of "gotta use DRM" just floors me.

Surprised they didn't require Puppygames to go more in depth. They use a chart with highly relevant info that's been cut off (the sales figures). A drop in that chart is really bad if they were selling 100 copies a day. But given RoTT's history, it is likely a drop from 3 or 4 to 1 or 0. Still a bit sad for them, but the Steam sale is like 3 days away.

Furthermore, the Puppygames guy mixes up the formats of his refund figures, offering numbers for direct but percentages for Steam. If you want people to take this seriously, we need more concrete facts.

And of course this is ignoring the context that most of these devs are seeing a large spike from six months of purchases and is clearly going to go down.

My gut reaction is that Puppygames is just in it for the publicity. They thirst for it.

 

[7DollarHagane]

I can't wait for indie devs to start putting a 2 hour timer on their games before anything really happens, lol

 

[The Cowboy]

I can't wait for indie devs to start putting a 2 hour timer on their games before anything really happens, lol

Fair reason for a refund then - "i want a refund because nothing has happened and its been 2 hours" .

 

[Maintenance]

How do any of those 3 apply to digital distribution on consoles? Unless consoles offer a refund service equivalent to Steam's that I'm not aware of.

How does what he said has anything to do with developers moving to consoles?

Refunds for defective products, yes. Refunds because "lol nevermind" has never been an established customer right.

It does happen where I live, as long as you bring the receipts.

 

[CambriaRising]

I can't wait for indie devs to start putting a 2 hour timer on their games before anything really happens, lol

Good way to raise the refund rate.

Seriously, you have an entire world's worth of instant information at your fingertips. There's not one single goddamn reason to buy something outside of your tastes ever again and if you do it's your own fault.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

I saw some pretty ludicrous refunds getting approved in the other GAF thread, stuff people bought over a year ago and looked for a refund on and got it, that's bullshit IMO, they need to stick to the 2 week/2 hour rule, otherwise you're just opening the door for a landslide of customer abuse.

On the other hand, if this clamps down on the bullshit that comes out in Early Access in a barely or non-functional state, it will all have been worth it IMO.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Refunds for defective products, yes. Refunds because "lol nevermind" has never been an established customer right.

...? You do know that most major retail stores let you return any item for any reason?

You do know that, right? As long as you have the receipt that is.

 

[Hugstable]

How do any of those 3 apply to digital distribution on consoles? Unless consoles offer a refund service equivalent to Steam's that I'm not aware of.

You mean getting refunds on a game? I know you can do it on PS4 in NA, thought I've heard really bad things about trying to get refunds on EU PSN. Sony tries to limit it big time though and when they do give you a refund they tell you that they probably won't do it again. I think part of the reason they're so strict is because they don't have a way to lock you out of the game if you already have it downloaded, which means you are still able to play it til it's deleted, and I'm sure a few have taken advantage of it before. Nintendo I believe doesn't do refunds on digital stuff, at least they didn't back when the Wii U first came out, haven't really heard anything about them on it since. Xbox I wouldn't know as I haven't owned one.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Trying to troll a game developer like that would only lead to articles about the game, leading to sympathy purchases, promotion, and ultimately awareness of the game's existence. It wouldn't work.

That depends entirely on other variable such as the scope of such an event, popularity of a game/dev, and the apparent reason for it. People get 'trolled' every day and you don't hear about it. And articles haven't stopped a bunch of similar crap that goes on already.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Refunds for defective products, yes. Refunds because "lol nevermind" has never been an established customer right.

Err... Have you ever worked a retail job? This isn't true. Like at all haha.

I mean if nothing else, have you ever heard of gift returns?

 

[etta]

I'll tell the theatre next time I go see a movie.

"Didn't like movie, money back please"

But you do not own the license to the movie when you watch it in a theatre. You own a license of the game when you buy its digital copy.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

I've bought plenty of games I don't like. The difference is that I didn't demand that the retailer/distributor/etc give me back money for my poor judgment and instead used the mistake to better shape my buying habits.

Seriously, you have an entire world's worth of instant information at your fingertips. There's not one single goddamn reason to buy something outside of your tastes ever again and if you do it's your own fault.

Yeah, fuck it. Let's just never get out of our comfort zones and play the same three genre's of games for the rest of our lives.

 

[Ravidrath]

I generally support this as it is, but I strongly agree that if you're doing to request a refund you should be required to provide a reason. I mean, retailers usually ask this of you when you return something.

Even just a pull-down list of common reasons would be incredibly useful for devs. If people are asking for refunds because it runs poorly on their systems or it's buggy, this is stuff that devs should be hearing alongside those refunds to target their efforts on improving that game or future products.

 

[Kerned]

I've bought plenty of games I don't like. The difference is that I didn't demand that the retailer/distributor/etc give me back money for my poor judgment and instead used the mistake to better shape my buying habits.

Seriously, you have an entire world's worth of instant information at your fingertips. There's not one single goddamn reason to buy something outside of your tastes ever again and if you do it's your own fault.

The idea that not liking something can only be the result of poor judgement is asinine.

 

[Kenai]

How do any of those 3 apply to digital distribution on consoles? Unless consoles offer a refund service equivalent to Steam's that I'm not aware of.

Somebody said the ability to refund purchases would mean game devs would focus more on consoles. Console gamers definitely have options for games they don't like or no longer want, more than Steam users. And they will still have more despite this 2 hour/2 week refund policy.

The idea that not liking something can only be the result of poor judgement is asinine.

Seriously. It's pretty mindblowing to see some of the comments on here.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Refunds for defective products, yes. Refunds because "lol nevermind" has never been an established customer right.

Uh, yes it is, plenty of people have gotten refunds for things they turned out to not really care for before.

Some of the things I'm reading in this thread make me think gamers have a very poor understanding of basic consumer<->business relations.

 

[Hip Hop]

...? You do know that most major retail stores let you return any item for any reason?

You do know that, right? As long as you have the receipt that is.

Do they, for opened game discs?

I believe you can't get a refund, unless the game has not been opened.

 

[Overside]

Duh?

 

[Dr. Black Jack]

...? You do know that most major retail stores let you return any item for any reason?

You do know that, right? As long as you have the receipt that is.

Not opened media, which includes video games. They'll do an exchange at best.

 

[Mononoke]

These sorts of responses are hilarious and ignore real world situations to the fullest.

Neither of you have bought something thinking you would like it and then didn't? Ever? It's like a weird elitism complex. "Those dumb dumbies, if they only used google. HA!"

Honestly, it happens a lot. Even with research, sometimes a game just doesn't click with me once I'm actually playing it. Impressions, reviews, and even let's plays don't always end up helping.

As someone that embraced digital games early on, I've come to expect it's on me to eat buyers remorse. I'm not saying that is right. I've just been so used to having to do that, it's hard to wrap my head around the idea of getting a refund, because I didn't like something I bought (when it comes to digital goods).

I'm from NA, if that means anything.

 

[Shmuely Bully]

There should be some time or terms-based limitation on refunds to prevent abuse, but it should be a reasonable one. I think Valve will find the appropriate balance.

 

[Replicant]

I wish I can get a refund for my purchase of Watch_Dogs.

 

[BassForever]

All Valve needs to do is add some kind of reasons list or a text box to explain why you want a refund. Do something like

- didn't enjoy game
- purchased by mistake
- technical issues
- felt price was too much for content
- other

And leave a space to enter any comments about the above if people wish to give specifics. People can always pick other and say they don't wish to disclose, but I imagine most people who ask for refunds on steam won't be afraid to explain why they were unhappy with the game.

Do they, for opened game discs?

I believe you can't get a refund, unless the game has not been opened.

Still plenty of ways around this, I've seen games/movies returned/exchanged after opening because

-person bought wrong format ie blu ray instead of dvd or on wrong system ie ps3 instead of 360

-disc didn't work and get an even exchange (most common)

Plus that doesn't mean you can't trade in the game/movie to get some value back, something you generally can't do with digital games.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

I saw some pretty ludicrous refunds getting approved in the other GAF thread, stuff people bought over a year ago and looked for a refund on and got it, that's bullshit IMO, they need to stick to the 2 week/2 hour rule, otherwise you're just opening the door for a landslide of customer abuse.

On the other hand, if this clamps down on the bullshit that comes out in Early Access in a barely or non-functional state, it will all have been worth it IMO.

Pretty sure it's only like that because the service just started and people were unable to request refunds for these products when they bought them but going forward it will stick to the 2 week/2 hour rule.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Do they, for opened game discs?

I believe you can't get a refund, unless the game has not been opened.

I believe that's to limit piracy. At least that's what I always thought. Like you could copy a PC disc and then return it.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Valve probably doesn't care. The money goes back into your wallet and you will spend it on something else. They will always get their cut..

No it doesn't.
http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds_methods

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Do they, for opened game discs?

I believe you can't get a refund, unless the game has not been opened.

That's because of Copyright law, which is well, for physical CDs/movies/and games are applied under it. BUT, you can sell games/trade in games you don't want to Gamestop or a like place. Which you can't even do on Steam.

I'd be ok with also having a trade in system for Steam.

All Valve needs to do is add some kind of reasons list or a text box to explain why you want a refund. Do something like

- didn't enjoy game
- purchased by mistake
- technical issues
- felt price was too much for content
- other

And leave a space to enter any comments about the above if people wish to give specifics. People can always pick other and say they don't wish to disclose, but I imagine most people who ask for refunds on steam won't be afraid to explain why they were unhappy with the game.

I just refunded a game, and aside from generic 'Didn't work/not what I expected', there IS a text box to enter the reason.

 

[bananafactory]

30-70% increase seems lower than I expected

What's the return to sale rate for most games anyway? 0.1%? So now its 0.2%?

Edit: I can't read - it's a total refund rate of 30-70% and not an increase

Wow that's insanely high

 

[Blizzard]

How does what he said has anything to do with developers moving to consoles?

Here's the sequence:

It's a nice feature for Steam users, but the end result is going to be developers focusing more on consoles.

Have you heard about something called used games? Gamestop? Sharing discs?

I'm assuming maxiell was suggesting developers would move to consoles because it's less easy to refund digital games there than on Steam.

 

[hamchan]

Isn't an easy solution to give a limited number of refunds? Like 3 a year or something?

Putting any limit on the number of refunds just discourages people from buying games and hurts people who do buy a lot of (potentially broken) games.

I generally support this as it is, but I strongly agree that if you're doing to request a refund you should be required to provide a reason. I mean, retailers usually ask this of you when you return something.

Even just a pull-down list of common reasons would be incredibly useful for devs. If people are asking for refunds because it runs poorly on their systems or it's buggy, this is stuff that devs should be hearing alongside those refunds to target their efforts on improving that game or future products.

I agree completely with this. There should be a pull down box and a comment box asking why you want a refund. You see this all this time with subscription based services asking why you're cancelling. Feedback is important.

 

[The Cowboy]

That's because of Copyright law, which is well, for physical CDs/movies/and games are applied under it. BUT, you can sell games/trade in games you don't want to Gamestop or a like place. Which you can't even do on Steam.

I'd be ok with also having a trade in system for Steam.

Man I live and hope it comes at some point (even if its just for steam wallet cash), i would have said it will never come - but 2 weeks ago i said a decent refund policy on Steam will never come .

 

[Dr. Black Jack]

The idea that not liking something can only be the result of poor judgement is asinine.

The web is full of resources on a game. You can pick any released game and find YouTube videos of someone playing through the whole thing. There will be multiple writeups/reviews/impressions pieces on the game. There's no excuse.