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[Skux]

I admit, I would have used this on a game like Gone Home. Knowing that I paid $20 for that would make me pretty mad.

Better make your games longer than two hours now lol

 

[Maiden Voyage]

I admit, I would have used this on a game like Gone Home. Knowing that I paid $20 for that would make me pretty mad.

Better make your games longer than two hours now lol

Wow.

 

[charlequin]

As in all things, let us look to the wisdom of Octodad on this difficult subject:

Since Steam does break down the data by sale price, we are in a position where we can have some certainty on when a returned game was purchased. For instance, we participated in the winter sale in December at 50% & 75% off, and in a 'Midweek Madness' sale in April at 66% off. It turns out that 80% of our refunds match the sale price for these periods, putting the purchase dates between 2-5 months ago. The other 20% of refunds at full price could have been purchased at any point in the last 6 months. Despite total refunds being 30% of units, it ends up only accounting for a loss of ~13% revenue when looking at this week.

So what we see here: refunds are overwhelmingly from sale purchasers (i.e. people who had less investment in the game to begin with, and who probably bought it alongside a bunch of other games), and stretch out over the entire 6-month window, representing basically an open-floodgates drop as everyone from the last half-year who didn't want to keep the game all rushed for refunds in the same week.

In this case, they saw 30% by volume of their purchases be refunded -- but that's 30% of one week that makes up the dissatisfaction of 26 weeks. Let's make a simplifying assumption and say the dissatisfaction rate stays steady over time -- i.e., during any given week, the percentage of buyers who want to return the game is even. That'd mean they're looking at around 1.1% of total customers looking for refunds. Apply a similar principle to someone who saw a 70% rate their first week and it comes out to around 2.7% -- quite a bit higher, but still a relatively small percentage of the whole.

We obviously have to wait and see how this plays out over the next month or so to draw final conclusions, but I don't think the people forming return rate expectations by considering week one typical are drawing reasonable conclusions. (And as the article suggests, many of them may not realize that people are getting refunds for basically anything from the last 6 months.)

EDIT: I think it's a bit naive to believe that the entire Steam userbase is made up of upstanding consumers not willing to abuse a system for their benefit, no matter how convoluted that abuse may be.

This is pretty far from the actual position being offered. It's not that the userbase is unusually upstanding and un-prone to sketchy behavior; it's that people only engage in sketchy policy abuse en masse if it's simple enough and there's enough to gain from it.

 

[Mooreberg]

The fear-mongering about people buying short games and refunding them after completion confuses me. What person exists that would do that instead of pirating? If someone wants to play a game without paying for it that's been super easy to do for years.

Anybody buying a game only because this refund policy now exists would never have been a customer to begin with. The game would have been pirated or ignored.

 

[Lothars]

I think it's really sketchy for someone to be able to return a game after more than a couple weeks at the very most.

They should not allow it and anyone that does it should be prevented from returns for a period of time.

 

[pastrami]

This is pretty far from the actual position being offered. It's not that the userbase is unusually upstanding and un-prone to sketchy behavior; it's that people only engage in sketchy policy abuse en masse if it's simple enough and there's enough to gain from it.

I was mainly playing devil's advocate. I've already said my piece on the matter, and that quote was in response to this: "You really think there's a crossover between legitimate customers who exist now and people who would go to the lengths you just described in order to play a game for free? I just can't see that being true, and I refuse to think of the player base on Steam as being made up of those people." I did not notice the second response in what I quoted when I wrote that response though.

 

[Sober]

I admit, I would have used this on a game like Gone Home. Knowing that I paid $20 for that would make me pretty mad.

Better make your games longer than two hours now lol

Oh, so:

"gotta punish those devs for making non-games"

Is there any particular reason the refund system is open to 6 months ago rather than just starting at the 14-days/2-hours they have right now? Just to get all the complaints out of the way?

 

[Permanently A]

Strange that they're allowing refunds on games that are months old. Why not 1 month like any other standard retail refund policy? Hell I think some places are even more stringent, like only a week.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

I feel like some people are so highly invested in digital ecosystems they've forgotten than returns are an accepted part of retail. If I buy something and don't like it, it doesn't function as I expect or it's not compatible with existing products, I should have a right to return it. 2 hours is enough time to judge that. The only time this is an issue is if the game is less than 2 hours long, but there's other ways to measure this. The fact this goes back 6 months just tells me a lot of people have games they've bought and either never played or hardly played for one reason or another and there was never a chance to request a refund before. This will level out as time passes.

 

[Head.spawn]

Oh, so:


Is there any particular reason the refund system is open to 6 months ago rather than just starting at the 14-days/2-hours they have right now? Just to get all the complaints out of the way?

Maybe because people buy games in advance to gift to someone? It could be a good reason to have a wider window.

 

[FiveMinuteHero]

If people don't like a product they should be able to get their money back.

Maybe I should try that at the cinema.

 

[Paz]

As in all things, let us look to the wisdom of Octodad on this difficult subject:



So what we see here: refunds are overwhelmingly from sale purchasers (i.e. people who had less investment in the game to begin with, and who probably bought it alongside a bunch of other games), and stretch out over the entire 6-month window, representing basically an open-floodgates drop as everyone from the last half-year who didn't want to keep the game all rushed for refunds in the same week.

In this case, they saw 30% by volume of their purchases be refunded -- but that's 30% of one week that makes up the dissatisfaction of 26 weeks. Let's make a simplifying assumption and say the dissatisfaction rate stays steady over time -- i.e., during any given week, the percentage of buyers who want to return the game is even. That'd mean they're looking at around 1.1% of total customers looking for refunds. Apply a similar principle to someone who saw a 70% rate their first week and it comes out to around 2.7% -- quite a bit higher, but still a relatively small percentage of the whole.

We obviously have to wait and see how this plays out over the next month or so to draw final conclusions, but I don't think the people forming return rate expectations by considering week one typical are drawing reasonable conclusions. (And as the article suggests, many of them may not realize that people are getting refunds for basically anything from the last 6 months.)



This is pretty far from the actual position being offered. It's not that the userbase is unusually upstanding and un-prone to sketchy behavior; it's that people only engage in sketchy policy abuse en masse if it's simple enough and there's enough to gain from it.

This is backed up by other folks like Robert from Zeboyd saying the refund rate is dropping significantly from day to day, that a large chunk of these returns could be a backlog of desires and that the actual refund rate on new purchases is probably miniscule.

Of course only time will tell. My games sales are probably too small to be statistically relevant but it also backs up what Robert was saying.

 

[unknownstranger]

What? That's not how a store works. It's not like Valve are forcing people to sell through Steam, and developers have zero control over most other store related functionality . The only thing developers control is price.

What? So you're saying developers should boycott this rule by not releasing their game on Steam?

Exactly how is that going to work? Some games have refunds and some don't? I'm open to developers having the call theoretically but really Valve are the ones who should make the call. So long as their maths is right and trust me they have plenty of numbers and plenty of numbers people working there to find out if this refund policy maximizes revenue and/or long term customer satisfaction.

Before they added this you could get a refund from almost any game on Steam, but the developer had at least some control of it and it required more effort. Now Valve seems to have removed the developer input part of the process and added a global simplified process of giving refunds without the developers consent.

 

[herod]

Is there any particular reason the refund system is open to 6 months ago rather than just starting at the 14-days/2-hours they have right now? Just to get all the complaints out of the way?

Testing, I assume.

 

[Jakten]

Maybe I should try that at the cinema.

There are lots of theatres that will give you a refund if you walk out of a movie.

 

[OldmanAndroid]

Any time ive been burned on a game, ive always blamed myself for not doing enough research. Should have read more reviews. Buyer beware. But thats just me. Same with going to a bad restaurant, i blame myself for not checking yelp.

As someone who has a game on steam that takes less than 2 hours to complete ($4.99), im really happy that consumers can get a refund now, that was something i really liked about itch.io.

I hate the idea of someone feeling ripped off by buying my game. In fact my next game will also prob be less than 2 hours to complete,and i wouldn't want to pad it out with filler just because of a new policy. Im still learning the ropes of game dev, amd and keeping my projects small.

 

[FiveMinuteHero]

There are lots of theatres that will give you a refund if you walk out of a movie.

Seriously? That would never work here.

 

[cripterion]

In my opinion people will abuse this but there should be a refund for broken games, wish I could have gotten refunded for the Driveclub but Sony denied me.

 

[Blizzard]

As in all things, let us look to the wisdom of Octodad on this difficult subject:



So what we see here: refunds are overwhelmingly from sale purchasers (i.e. people who had less investment in the game to begin with, and who probably bought it alongside a bunch of other games), and stretch out over the entire 6-month window, representing basically an open-floodgates drop as everyone from the last half-year who didn't want to keep the game all rushed for refunds in the same week.

In this case, they saw 30% by volume of their purchases be refunded -- but that's 30% of one week that makes up the dissatisfaction of 26 weeks. Let's make a simplifying assumption and say the dissatisfaction rate stays steady over time -- i.e., during any given week, the percentage of buyers who want to return the game is even. That'd mean they're looking at around 1.1% of total customers looking for refunds. Apply a similar principle to someone who saw a 70% rate their first week and it comes out to around 2.7% -- quite a bit higher, but still a relatively small percentage of the whole.

We obviously have to wait and see how this plays out over the next month or so to draw final conclusions, but I don't think the people forming return rate expectations by considering week one typical are drawing reasonable conclusions. (And as the article suggests, many of them may not realize that people are getting refunds for basically anything from the last 6 months.)

Thanks for the interesting link. This part seems to confirm one of my comments/questions:

As to why people are refunding the game, that's unknown. We can speculate that it's mostly people who impulse bought it on sale, either didn't play it or played it a bit and didn’t enjoy it, and discovered now that they can refund the game more easily. Purchases made in the last 6 months do show up in a list when applying for a refund, so they may as well try. It's also possible that these are people who bought the game in order to resell as a gift (I believe that unredeemed gifts can still be refunded). Or it could be people who have long since had a reason to play the game again and mostly want it cleared from their library (with money back). Of course, this kind of speculation isn’t entirely helpful. What we hope for in the future is to have more data provided to us on why players may have asked for a refund. Currently, we don't know.

As with the other developer, they suggest little data is provided as to why a game is returned. Maybe Valve doesn't even provide data on whether the "game different from expected" box versus the "game didn't run properly box" (names probably not exact) was selected.

However, maybe I'm just missing the other aspect in my reading. Does that article mention whether Octodad's developers had to pay months-old refunds directly? For small developers I'm guessing that could result in negative cash flow situations.

 

[Helznicht]

Anybody buying a game only because this refund policy now exists would never have been a customer to begin with. The game would have been pirated or ignored.

idk, I am seriously thinking about buying ARK to see if it really runs so bad. Looks like fun but performance woes have kept me away. Now I can get my $25 bucks back if I cant stand it.

 

[crimilde]

In my opinion, the current refund system they're trying out is a bit too relaxed and prone to abuse.

I mean, they could do something like, "The refund window is 15-30 minutes from when you start up the game for the first time".

I think that should give people enough time to see if the game runs properly/is worth their time and shorter games can also be protected this way.

Or bring back demos (I know, totally unlikely).

 

[JaseC]

In my opinion, the current refund system they're trying out is a bit too relaxed and prone to abuse.

I mean, they could do something like, "The refund window is 15-30 minutes from when you start up the game for the first time".

I think that should give people enough time to see if the game runs properly/is worth their time and shorter games can also be protected this way.

Or bring back demos (I know, totally unlikely).

When a game is buggy, 15-30 minutes isn't a lot of time, or even a lot of time in general for larger games (e.g. open-world titles). The reason the two primary conditions (<2 hours of playtime and purchased within the past two weeks) are not set in stone is to account for situations like MKX, where a game launches in an utterly unjustifiable state and later patches barely fix anything.

It is far too early to be siding with the developers that are crying foul and asking for the particulars to be changed.

 

[Velurian]

Yes. Demos please.
I have never understood, why are there no demos.
Timed access for a few hours is just fine, but there has to be a way to try the game out.
Refund is like a dirty fix for this problem.

 

[Cave Johnson]

As someone who enjoys both the AAA bombastic games down to the niche narrative titles that try to do something new, I don't exactly get this line of thought.

Indies that want to make something new or familiar or profound or transgressive or avant garde are going to keep doing so. They know the exact audience they're aiming for. Those people aren't suddenly gonna go "fuck you got my 2 hours" all of a sudden. That is generally reserved for a subset of people who, let's be honest, are already pretty apprehensive or openly hostile to these kind of games and wouldn't pay much less play them anyway.

Like, if you asked me if I enjoyed something like Dinner Date, which I finished in 20 minutes... maybe not? But I definitely appreciated what it was trying to do. Of course not everyone shares my sensibilities but I'm of a mind people who want to see games in that similar vein are fine with "keeping" their copy (so to speak).

Don't really know why people are blowing this out of proportion.

Nothing in my post indicate to prevent indie developers' games on their own benefit. It's a remark that applies to any and all developers that funding is the substantial part of developing a game. Refunds are just a recourse for non-intentional purchases, especially in light of the garbage spewed over at steam greenlight.

 

[Blizzard]

Yes. Demos please.
I have never understood, why are there no demos.
Timed access for a few hours is just fine, but there has to be a way to try the game out.
Refund is like a dirty fix for this problem.

The Steam store shows 779 demos for me. That's certainly not every game, but it's quite a few games, definitely more than no demos:

http://store.steampowered.com/freestuff/demos/

 

[WrenchNinja]

You can get a refund for a game bought within six months? I thought it was only two weeks?

 

[Seanspeed]

If people don't like a product they should be able to get their money back.

I'm still not 100% with this sort of thinking. I've always felt refunds should be for products that are faulty or not as advertised.

 

[kuroshiki]

In my opinion, the current refund system they're trying out is a bit too relaxed and prone to abuse.

I mean, they could do something like, "The refund window is 15-30 minutes from when you start up the game for the first time".

I think that should give people enough time to see if the game runs properly/is worth their time and shorter games can also be protected this way.

Or bring back demos (I know, totally unlikely).

15-30 min? that's like... you see opening and finish up the tutorial shit. 2 hr is fine. If developers don't like it, then they have to come up with something worthwhile for purchasers not to make that refund decision.

I'm still not 100% with this sort of thinking. I've always felt refunds should be for products that are faulty or not as advertised.

I for one wholly agree that consumer should be able to return if they do not like the product, within given time period.

 

[Kathian]

Well that's the point.

 

[baterism]

You can get a refund for a game bought within six months? I thought it was only two weeks?

I assume:
under 2 weeks, auto-system took charge
over 2 weeks, CS took charge, and if they saw the reason is legit, they will approve it.

 

[JaseC]

You can get a refund for a game bought within six months? I thought it was only two weeks?

It doesn't matter. Valve will, upon request via help.steampowered.com, issue a refund for any reason, if the request is made within fourteen days of purchase, and the title has been played for less than two hours. There are more details below, but even if you fall outside of the refund rules we’ve described, you can ask for a refund anyway and we’ll take a look.

.

 

[inner-G]

Damn, I wish I could refund my whole Steam library back onto my debit card, lol

 

[Rhaknar]

This is going to be stupid during the sale isn't it?

 

[Metaphor for Giant Robot]

My biggest concern with this refunding policy is the fact that this (and the surrounding argument) possibly comes from an older mentality that dealt with solid physical products that could not be fixed by the seller or manufacturer unless you had to send it out to get fixed (possibly with some fees) or get a full refund/exchange for it.

This, however, is digital distribution of games that can be easily patched on a platform that is incredibly flexible in hardware. That's an environment that is too fluid and with too many variables to reduce to a one size fits all solution.

There are some actually broken, non-functioning games on Steam, but the difference between that and a game just not quite functioning right with your video card without a patch or workaround is something that can very easily blur to the average consumer with this. Consumer becomes more misinformed and can simply go "this game sucks," missing out on a solution to their problem and missing out on the rest of the game. And unless it's stated otherwise, the developer doesn't get much feedback and has to pay back the game. Kind of a lose/lose situation (though I guess the consumer loses less).

 

[crimilde]

15-30 min? that's like... you see opening and finish up the tutorial shit. 2 hr is fine. If developers don't like it, then they have to come up with something worthwhile for purchasers not to make that refund decision.

I see what you mean, I was thinking more of the Early Access games, not big titles from recognized developers.
Even better, different rules for different kinds of games.

Regarding the return/refund policy, I agree that it's totally welcome if the product is faulty, buggy, doesn't work properly on your environment etc.

The fact that you do not like the content should not be a criterion, I think. That should be assessed by and reflected in the reviews, that is what they're mainly for.

 

[inner-G]

I'm still not 100% with this sort of thinking. I've always felt refunds should be for products that are faulty or not as advertised.

What if a product is as advertised, but once you buy it, you find it lackluster or just barely up to par.

If you're just unsatisfied with a product should you not be entitled to a refund?

 

[CecilRousso]

This is going to be stupid during the sale isn't it?

Beyond stupid. You just have to look how people are using it in the other "Steam now offers refunds" thread here, to see that the function is not sustainable in the current version, if it doesn't settle soon.

It is fascinating to see people trying to use it that desperately though. Some really are buying way too many games.

What if a product is as advertised, but once you buy it, you find it lackluster or just barely up to par.

If you're just unsatisfied with a product should you not be entitled to a refund?

When it comes to games, no. Absolutely not. You have all the means ready to do a proper research before buying - reviews, forums, youtube videos, etc. Everything. It's just silly to request refund because you couldn't be botherered to do your own part before a buy. They were good enough the first hours, and then fantastic.

And many games becomes much better when you put in an effort into playing them. Games like Mass Effect 1 and Deus Ex: Human Revolution didn't click for me until after 4h, and then they became some of my favorite games.

 

[Seanspeed]

What if a product is as advertised, but once you buy it, you find it lackluster or just barely up to par.

If you're just unsatisfied with a product should you not be entitled to a refund?

Then tough shit. Do more research beforehand. I don't like this complete lack of consumer responsibility these days.

 

[crimilde]

What if a product is as advertised, but once you buy it, you find it lackluster or just barely up to par.

If you're just unsatisfied with a product should you not be entitled to a refund?

There is a difference between regular products and stuff like media. Sure, if I don't like the vacuum cleaner I just bought because it works fine but it's a bit noisy, I should be able to return that, because I will be using it a lot in the future and it's a long time investment.

But a book/film/game, which are far more one-time/couple of times experiences? Should I be allowed to return a book because at the end I found that I didn't like the main character? I think that's stretching it a bit too far.

 

[akachan ningen]

If people get refunds, the dev should be able to keep some of the profit, the rest paid by Valve.

 

[OldmanAndroid]

What if a product is as advertised, but once you buy it, you find it lackluster or just barely up to par.

If you're just unsatisfied with a product should you not be entitled to a refund?

Im learning that a lot of people buy games without checking reviews.

 

[kuroshiki]

Then tough shit. Do more research beforehand. I don't like this complete lack of consumer responsibility these days.

Nah. I actually like this 'return if you don't like it' policy. A lot of brick and mortar stores have it, Costco has it, walmart has it, and I'm loving it.

For example I bought a headset and while demo unit was ok, I found the cable was a bit shorter than I would have liked. i returned it, no problemo. I purchased something else instead.

I don't have time to research 20 plus different product and even if I do that there is always a chance that product might not be what I expected it to be. So yeah, viva consumers.

 

[Cave Johnson]

Then tough shit. Do more research beforehand. I don't like this complete lack of consumer responsibility these days.

No amount of research is going to predict what happens post-game release. Finding out a game breaking bug or issues one or two weeks down the line upon purchase is not my ideal scenario of keeping the product.

 

[Leafhopper]

Im learning that a lot of people buy games without checking reviews.

Problem is, is that 90% of Steam reviews are either jokey meme stuff or just wrong. That said you are right.

 

[OldmanAndroid]

Nah. I actually like this 'return if you don't like it' policy. A lot of brick and mortar stores have it, Costco has it, walmart has it, and I'm loving it.

For example I bought a headset and while demo unit was ok, I found the cable was a bit shorter than I would have liked. i returned it, no problemo. I purchased something else instead.

I don't have time to research 20 plus different product and even if I do that there is always a chance that product might not be what I expected it to be. So yeah, viva consumers.

Doesn't walmart/Costco absorb the cost in that situation?

 

[zoku88]

Then tough shit. Do more research beforehand. I don't like this complete lack of consumer responsibility these days.

As opposed to when?

 

[Fanuilos]

Then tough shit. Do more research beforehand. I don't like this complete lack of consumer responsibility these days.

Ridiculous. People can get an idea about a game before ever purchasing it, but they really only figure out a game until they play it themselves. Things like controls, camera, and other core gameplay issues can not become apparent until an individual is playing it. Other entertainment like books, movies, hard copies of games etc can be returned. Digital games should be treated no differently.

 

[OldmanAndroid]

Problem is, is that 90% of Steam reviews are either jokey meme stuff or just wrong. That said you are right.

Professional reviews, metacritic, quick looks?

 

[arevin01]

I imagine they need to limit on how many returns you are allowed per year. 3 would be a good number.

 

[CecilRousso]

I don't have time to research 20 plus different product and even if I do that there is always a chance that product might not be what I expected it to be. So yeah, viva consumers.

When you dont have time do that research, you're probably buying too many games.