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[LAA]

I think it'll level out over time as others have said. The spike can be due to many reasons, such as it simply being a new feature to try out, getting rid of games that would require too much haste to get rid of it
I don't see why devs are panicking so much, refunds exist for retail now, yet I don't hear that as a main problem. Perhaps it's also because retail demands higher prices (unless there's a sale), but I don't think simply because it's "easier" on digital should really matter

 

[Leafhopper]

Professional reviews, metacritic, quick looks?

Oh my bad, I thought you meant just Steam reviews. My bad.

 

[thekiddfran]

Steam of kept it the way it was. Now they have opened a can of worms for both developer and customer

 

[Seanspeed]

Nah. I actually like this 'return if you don't like it' policy. A lot of brick and mortar stores have it, Costco has it, walmart has it, and I'm loving it.

For example I bought a headset and while demo unit was ok, I found the cable was a bit shorter than I would have liked. i returned it, no problemo. I purchased something else instead.

I don't have time to research 20 plus different product and even if I do that there is always a chance that product might not be what I expected it to be. So yeah, viva consumers.

If you cant be bothered to do any research about what you buy, then I have zero sympathy for you if what you buy doesn't end up being something you're happy with.

Doesn't walmart/Costco absorb the cost in that situation?

Absolutely. It's pretty guilt-free for something like Walmart, but this actually hurts smaller retailers.

No amount of research is going to predict what happens post-game release. Finding out a game breaking bug or issues one or two weeks down the line upon purchase is not my ideal scenario of keeping the product.

Like I said, I have no problems with refunds for faulty products.

That said, with the exaggerated way people use 'broken' these days, I mean truly broken, not 'I don't like the level scaling in this game, the game is broken'.

 

[PdotMichael]

Can't feel bad for the developers.

They should provide demos of their games so we don't need refunds in the first place.

 

[charlequin]

However, maybe I'm just missing the other aspect in my reading. Does that article mention whether Octodad's developers had to pay months-old refunds directly?

It came out of their revenue stream, but there's no indication of what would happen if they actually went net negative for a week.

I mean, they could do something like, "The refund window is 15-30 minutes from when you start up the game for the first time".

I think that should give people enough time to see if the game runs properly/is worth their time and shorter games can also be protected this way.

I don't think I've ever fixed a significant issue affecting a PC game I bought in under 15 minutes. When something doesn't run right out of the box, I don't want to be carefully eking out my time with the game open or slipping over to that 16th minute just because I didn't close the game window while I googled something.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

I often do this with boxed games, receipt goes right inside the box, give it a whirl for a few hours and return it if I'm not digging it.

I want to know who is out there buying games and playing them within two weeks instead of immediately losing it in a giant backlog.

The people who know they can get a refund.

 

[TheYanger]

Maybe I should try that at the cinema.

Irrelevent. The fact that people can do this with films speaks volumes, because a film is a finite and fixed experience. I know the movie is going to 'work' on my system (the theater), and if it doesn't I GUARANTEE you will get a refund, there's nothing to suss out about if I like the controls or if it's programmed well, the movie is the movie and the only thing you may not like about ti that you didn't know going in is the minutae of the plot.

With a game there are multitudes of other things that you simply cannot accurately even guess at until you play them. I can know that a movie is about pirates and be intruiged, and I can know that a game is about pirates and similarly be excited, but while the movie can only even be a filmed experience I sit through and thus flawlessly operates in that manner, a game involves things like hardware considerations, controls, graphics, bugs, all of this stuff that you have no realistic way of comprehending prior to ACTUALLY playing it. I can be as informed as I want to be but it will never replicate 45 minutes of hands on time.

Seriously? That would never work here.

Have you tried?

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Seems like a slightly overly complicated of bringing forced demos back. From that perspective, me like. However, that still leaves the problem of remarkably small games. Just because something is shorter than 2 hours doesn't mean it's cheap, and just because they're not in abundance doesn't mean they can be ignored, and just because players interested in small, niche games like this might be more morally fair and not demand a refund after completion, doesn't mean we give them the benefit of the doubt and put devs in a precarious position.

I mean, why would ThatGameCompany EVER make a game for Steam with the refunds in its current state? It could be a gigantic financial screw up for them. I'm pretty sure I completed both Flower and Journey, both great games, under 2 hours and had they been released on Steam under this policy I could've gotten them for free.

btw, no, I don't subscribe to the idea that you can buy a properly advertised and functional piece of art, consume it entirely, and be entitled to all of your money back

 

[Kadayi]

Exactly, this isn't a debate. And yet we're the ones who are always called entitled; refunds are one of the most basic consumer rights.

Seconded. I don't get the problem here.

 

[AppleSeason]

I can think of at least 5 games I'd have asked for a return, out of the 193 I have on my account. It's too bad that this arrives by the time I learned some self-control and to not buy every freaking thing on sale because I had mild interest in playing it.

 

[Ombala]

This money back policy applies too Early Access games too?

 

[Burai]

If you cant be bothered to do any research about what you buy, then I have zero sympathy for you if what you buy doesn't end up being something you're happy with.

So how would you apply that to something like Mortal Kombat X? All of the reviews are overwhelmingly positive, the GAF thread was overwhelmingly positive. It was only after a few days that the full extent of the PC port's problems were discovered. Then the patch was promised, subsequently released and then subsequently pulled because it broke more than it fixed.

Even buying now rather than preordering or buying around launch I have no idea if the problems are really fixed at this point and that's having followed the game very closely. Just how much research should I put in before the blame gets put on Warner Bros and not me?

 

[baterism]

I mean, why would ThatGameCompany EVER make a game for Steam with the refunds in its current state? It could be a gigantic financial screw up for them. I'm pretty sure I completed both Flower and Journey, both great games, under 2 hours and had they been released on Steam under this policy I could've gotten them for free.

That would assume every person who completed it would refund it. Me? If I enjoyed 30 minutes game, I won't returned it because I want it to stay on my library and to show support to the dev. If someone want to play dirty, just fucking pirate it from the beginning. Torrenting is easy, and contrary to popular belief, not full of viruses if you know what you are doing

Spoiler

(if someone can't even pirate straight, I pray for their souls)

.

Honestly, a lot of fear stem from disbelief that human are not entirely ass.

 

[Delusibeta]

ITT: game press finds a way to spin a bunch of extremely dodgy stats on the use of a new and well publicised feature into a way to bash all gamers, and people are falling for it.

 

[itxaka]

If people don't like a product they should be able to get their money back.

.

 

[Haunted]

many indie games can be beaten in two hours, its like watching a movie then asking for a refund at the end. Steam needs Devs to post average beat times, then allow maybe 1/4 of that time and under to qualify for a refund.

So I can play Witcher 3 for 20 hours and still get a refund?

What's the average beat time of Football Manager, Space Engine and Kerbal Space Program?

Don't think that idea would work.

 

[JaseC]

This money back policy applies too Early Access games too?

Yes. Everything you need to know is here.

 

[xrnzaaas]

I've played a lot of indie games since I bought a PS4 and I haven't finished any of them in less than two hours (only Never Alone was close to the 2h mark). So I wouldn't say that the majority of them is very short, but it's maybe just me carefully picking what I want to play. I think we should give it some time and the % of refunds will drop to a much more satisfying level, because introducing this policy was generally a good idea.

 

[Durante]

Considering how fad-driven the internet at large is, I find that the argument that people are getting refunds a lot more now than they will a week or a month from now quite convincing.

Also, at least according to Steamspy, total game ownership on Steam has increased since the new policy:

 

[Haunted]

This is going to be stupid during the sale isn't it?

The generosity of this offer does put a lot of power into the hands of gamers. Here's hoping those trying to abuse it are a small minority and the general Steam populace will treat this option like they do in most other industries that offer this.


I hope there's no big, glaring loop holes (like idling cards or doing some shady shit with the directory while it's on someone's PC) that could be abused by an organised setup of automated Russian bot accounts. If that's the case, we'll have a bit of a shitstorm on our hands during the upcoming sale.

 

[Kadin]

I hope there's no big, glaring loop holes (like idling cards or doing some shady shit with the directory while it's on someone's PC) that could be abused by an organised setup of automated Russian bots or some shit.

Can people get cards from the games, and either keep them or sell them on the Market and still get refunded? I would imagine no but when I last looked at the terms, I don't recall anything specifically about those. Just in-game stuff, dlc, etc.

 

[Haunted]

Can people get cards from the games, and either keep them or sell them on the Market and still get refunded? I would imagine no but when I last looked at the terms, I don't recall anything specifically about those. Just in-game stuff, dlc, etc.

No idea, but that's exactly what I'm talking about. Idling cards, copying the soundtrack (often simply a folder in the games directory), it's easy to see the potential for abuse.

If there are no security hooks in place to prevent this kind of simple abuse, I could see even regular people trying to take advantage, never mind a network of thousands of bot accounts.

 

[hobblygobbly]

IMO it hasn't been long enough for statistics to provide any meaningful insight into the model right now.

However the refund model operates in accordance to consumer protection laws in many countries (almost all of Europe). I don't think it should go away. Don't see any reason to.

If people are refunding your game it may be a symptom of your game, not the system. Refunds like this have been in effect in many countries for decades. No entity big or small has suffered from refunds unless their product was so bad that the refunds killed it. In which case consumer protection was effective and protecting the consumer.

I think it's a good thing Steam is finally adhering to consumer protection laws that have been in effect in the EU for a very long time.

 

[Blizzard]

From the Steam refund thread, it would appear that Valve doesn't always use the method you paid with, since I think some people were talking about that:

Asked for a refund and instead of giving me back my money, they put it in my steam wallet instead.
That is not what I asked for. :/

I don't know if there are any particular payment methods that Valve will refuse to refund, or if they're using refunds into the wallet (store credit) for certain cases, or what.

*edit* Someone mentioned this from Steam which might explain it:

(Some payment methods available through Steam in your country may not support refunding a purchase back to the original payment method.)

 

[DBT85]

My only question about the refund thing is this.

In a game like Kerbal Space Program, the game is entirely DRM free. Once installed via Steam you can copy the game directory to somewhere else and play it with ever needing steam.

That surely can't track in Steam as being played for any duration of time.

So in theory, I could buy KSP (already have it), play for 200 hours in under 2 weeks, and get a full refund on it.

If there are other games with a similar issues then it ould get abused, but I imagine that might only be a small case.

During the sales this is going to be used a lot, but I think that's fine. A lot of people buy things in the sales that they don't play or whatever and getting a refund on that is totally fine.

One issue might be a game that had loads of pre orders and a launch day review embargo and the review say the game is a crock and people just get a refund to wait a month and see what the devs do about it.

 

[Leafhopper]

My only question about the refund thing is this.

In a game like Kerbal Space Program, the game is entirely DRM free. Once installed via Steam you can copy the game directory to somewhere else and play it with ever needing steam.

That surely can't track in Steam as being played for any duration of time.

So in theory, I could buy KSP (already have it), play for 200 hours in under 2 weeks, and get a full refund on it.

If there are other games with a similar issues then it ould get abused, but I imagine that might only be a small case.

During the sales this is going to be used a lot, but I think that's fine. A lot of people buy things in the sales that they don't play or whatever and getting a refund on that is totally fine.

One issue might be a game that had loads of pre orders and a launch day review embargo and the review say the game is a crock and people just get a refund to wait a month and see what the devs do about it.

Sadly, I was talking to one of my friends and apparently some people are already doing shit like this for some games.

Thing is though as others have stated before, why even mess with Steam at this point.

 

[Call me Flaps]

No idea, but that's exactly what I'm talking about. Idling cards, copying the soundtrack (often simply a folder in the games directory), it's easy to see the potential for abuse.

If there are no security hooks in place to prevent this kind of simple abuse, I could see even regular people trying to take advantage, never mind a network of thousands of bot accounts.

That's ridiculous. Nobody is going to use refunds as a way to pirate a soundtrack, not when torrents are infinitely more convenient. The same is true for all the talk about DRM free games on steam. Why would you bother buying a game, copying the folders and hoping for a refund if you could instead easily use pirate bay and save a ton of hassle.


There is literally no downside to giving customers the ability to request refunds, unless you're a developer hoping to sell through deception.

 

[pelican]

Kotaku - "Retailers across the world experiencing a lot of customer refunds."

Like with all types of retail products - create a quality item/experience and the vast majority of consumers will support your product. In reality Indie Developers have had it easy. Now they face the reality of operating in a retail environment where consumers can and do request refunds.

This is going to be the latest bogie man from many developers. First it was piracy, now it is consumers excercising consumer rights. I have little sympathy for those already crying out about refunds when we are not even a week into this new policy. What do they want? A return back to the stone ages where gamers couldn't execise the right to request a refund? No thanks.

 

[hamchan]

My only question about the refund thing is this.

In a game like Kerbal Space Program, the game is entirely DRM free. Once installed via Steam you can copy the game directory to somewhere else and play it with ever needing steam.

That surely can't track in Steam as being played for any duration of time.

So in theory, I could buy KSP (already have it), play for 200 hours in under 2 weeks, and get a full refund on it.

If there are other games with a similar issues then it ould get abused, but I imagine that might only be a small case.

During the sales this is going to be used a lot, but I think that's fine. A lot of people buy things in the sales that they don't play or whatever and getting a refund on that is totally fine.

One issue might be a game that had loads of pre orders and a launch day review embargo and the review say the game is a crock and people just get a refund to wait a month and see what the devs do about it.

When you're doing this though, why bother going through Steam?

Might as well go torrent the game at that point.

 

[DryvBy]

Seriously bad for developers who:

- Are making cheap games that last less than two hours
- Are making niche games of any kind at all
- Are making narrative games
- Are making games where art isn't the focus

Seriously good for game buyers who:

- Are used to getting everything cheap or free forever

Maybe we'll be able to get demos again? That seems like a solution to some of this.

 

[Auto-Reply]

I'm not sure what the retail practise/law is on that matter. I don't think you can buy a movie or game and bring it back 2 weeks later and get your money back, but maybe you can... I dunno, sounds crazy though, cheaper than renting, costs litterally nothing.

I think all games that require online access to function at all, beyond the initial download and activation, should have a refund period of 3 years!

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

I kinda feel bad for the indie devs, but I think it's still a good thing.
I hope this refund policy will push the indie devs to make better games so people won't refund them.

I honestly think people will attempt to get refunds on games even if they are great games an they love them just to take advantage of the refund policy. I mean, it is good that they allow refunds on digital products, but I think a substantial amount of gamers will treat this like digital renting. Then again, I wonder how much enjoyment they can get out of playing a game for 2 hours or less? Guess we'll see what happens.

 

[Cave Johnson]

I honestly think people will attempt to get refunds on games even if they are great games an they love them just to take advantage of the refund policy. I mean, it is good that they allow refunds on digital products, but I think a substantial amount of gamers will treat this like digital renting. Then again, I wonder how much enjoyment they can get out of playing a game for 2 hours or less? Guess we'll see what happens.

Good thing many games take more than 2 hours to explore their nuanced core systems.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I honestly think people will attempt to get refunds on games even if they are great games an they love them just to take advantage of the refund policy. I mean, it is good that they allow refunds on digital products, but I think a substantial amount of gamers will treat this like digital renting. Then again, I wonder how much enjoyment they can get out of playing a game for 2 hours or less? Guess we'll see what happens.

That number will definitely be in the minority, though. Hell, the devs Kotaku talks to reports....about what, 18 people returning a game in a week? Very low numbers. Definitely mountain out of a molehill situation. And when some indie developers react like this...well, it makes me like the idea of refunds even more:

I think the devs that are kicking up a storm right now are entitled brats. Zeboyd mentioned that they've seen a decrease throughout the week means...that this situation is overblown because the system is new.

 

[Dexthepleb]

Glad steam is adding refunds

 

[Viper3]

Maybe we'll be able to get demos again? That seems like a solution to some of this.

How would a demo solve this issue though? Say you play a demo of a game, you really like it and you end buy purchasing the game. That doesn't stop you from getting a refund.

And given the fact that you can return the game, you can just buy it, play it for an hour and get a refund. Which makes demos completely obsolete.

 

[ShadyJ]

That number will definitely be in the minority, though. Hell, the devs Kotaku talks to reports....about what, 18 people returning a game in a week? Very low numbers. Definitely mountain out of a molehill situation. And when some indie developers react like this...well, it makes me like the idea of refunds even more:

I think the devs that are kicking up a storm right now are entitled brats. Zeboyd mentioned that they've seen a decrease throughout the week means...that this situation is overblown because the system is new.

Great quote there.

 

[Cave Johnson]

That number will definitely be in the minority, though. Hell, the devs Kotaku talks to reports....about what, 18 people returning a game in a week? Very low numbers. Definitely mountain out of a molehill situation. And when some indie developers react like this...well, it makes me like the idea of refunds even more:

I think the devs that are kicking up a storm right now are entitled brats. Zeboyd mentioned that they've seen a decrease throughout the week means...that this situation is overblown because the system is new.

What an asshat. His colours are showing in the most pathetic way possible. No matter what position you are, you lost the argument the moment you cry out "entitled" gamers in the core aspect of a business transaction.

 

[Jigorath]

Everything would be much simpler if devs went back to making demos.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

What an asshat. His colours are showing in the most pathetic way possible. No matter what position you are, you lost the argument the moment you cry out "entitled" gamers in the core aspect of a business transaction.

And that's how some are reacting. 'Gamers should do research before buying a game! This is bad for devs who make small games. It's not the devs fault that a customer didn't like their game, why should they be punished for it through the refund system?'.

It's like.....yeah ok how does anything you said trump consumer rights? Simply put, if an indie dev loses alot of sales through refunds after their game comes out, and they blame consumers for being entitled....it's like, it's not the consumers problem. Let the free market sort out the games, and if refunds speed the process of this, then I welcome it.

Those who make small games, will probably still find an audience for them. And that's ok.

 

[gofreak]

With this...

He added that it seems like Valve is also approving refund requests for games purchased months ago and played for more than two hours. An odd wrinkle if accurate, and one I’ve mailed a question to Valve about. For now, though, it’s worth noting Valve’s announcement post on refunds does include this bit: “Even if you fall outside of the refund rules we’ve described, you can ask for a refund anyway and we’ll take a look.”

...I wonder how many people will go through large steam sale catalogs and request refunds on games barely or never touched.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

With this...



...I wonder how many people will go through large steam sale catalogs and request refunds on games barely or never touched.

I think right now the limit is 6 months.(Probably an exception since it's new.)

And yeah..I think Charlequin posted some numbers from Octodad about how a good number of refunds was from the steam sale they had and not full price? Right now it'll seem huge, but over time you should see the system stabilize.

 

[kerotan_eater]

Professional reviews, metacritic, quick looks?

Not all games on Steam get reviews or hand-on impressions from outlets . Especially with a lot of the Greenlighted indie stuff. The most you'll get is a dozen mediocre to poorly written reviews.

 

[Chaos17]

Spot on. Nothing more to say, really.

It makes the indies dev worry, here some examples :

 

[mechphree]

I think it's weird we've gotten so used to just eating our purchases (digitally) that we claim refunds shouldn't happen. The vast majority of people who are going to pirate a game most likely would just go to a torrent site and get it for free, as opposed to paying real money and going through loop holes through stream. Sure, you'll have a few people who the system, but that's every where.


I'm sure their are hundreds of people on eBay or Amazon who claim they never received a item and ask for a refund even though they got it. It's a very small few who do and that small few won't ruin it for everybody else. Steam desperately needed a streamlined refund system, especially with games in early access.

 

[alstein]

Steam has to do something to raise the price people are willing to pay for games, but I don't know if even this will be enough. Valve has been a victim of their own success in a way, and they have a huge supply of games that outpaces demand for the most part.

Mega-bombs like MKX PC don't just hurt the customers, they hurt Valve- as folks become squeamish to spend $60 again. This is where the never pay over $20 for a PC game crowd comes from.

The only things that would put Valve's monopoly at risk these days are Microsoft doing something to majorly jack up PC gaming, or an outright gamer revolt against Steam.

The one way this could backfire is if AAA companies get upset because they get high refund rates (See MKX- if that had come out after this policy- I'd expect a 75% refund rate)- but then Valve could play the shovelware card and they'd be viewed as the good guy here.

I'm willing to screw over some fifth-rate indie devs (the good ones will still do well) if it means that the AAA companies will have to put more effort into their PC ports.

 

[DigitalDevil]

There are a lot of games that I would have returned if I had to make the decision based on the first 2 hours of gameplay.

 

[megalowho]

Refunds are great and we need them in digital ecosystems, but I'm not so naive to believe that this system isn't going to get abused, and likely by not an insignificant number of people. I'm particularly concerned for short game experiences like Thirty Flights of Loving - I don't want games like that to go away due to fear of overwhelming refunds after completion.

 

[AppleSeason]

I often do this with boxed games, receipt goes right inside the box, give it a whirl for a few hours and return it if I'm not digging it.

Here in Spain the only way a shop will give you a refund for a retail game is if it is still factory sealed and intact. I believe they started doing this with the switch from cartridges to optical media, on the basis that you could have pirated the game before returning it, and even on the case of a faulty game you would only get a replacement for the exact same game. Christmas working on retail seriously sucked when somebody tried to get a refund and threatened with suing.

So well, being able to get a refund now feels mindblowing.