Great post.
The Last Guardian re-revealed at E3 2015! Up Yours Y2Kev!
- Thread starter Amir0x
- Start date
Great post.
[Edit: also what is people's problem with the kid's voice?
A) His voice is less annoying than Ico's
B) This is what a goddamn kid would soundlike. It's great that he sounds so real.]
People thought the same of The Last of Us and look how that turned out. (Re being certain that
) These people are good writers and artists. This isn't hollywood where someone has to die in the third act for catalyst or catharsis. Heck, it doesn't even really happen in Shadow of the Colossus.
Also you're possibly off the mark re telegraphed and basic interactions. Obviously this is all pieced together from tidbits, we won't know until the game comes out – but ostensibly the entire reason this game has taken 8 years is because the AI was so complex and the level of human/character interaction was insanely difficult to design and too demanding for a PS3. The catbird is essentially like a giant tamagochi but with behaviours a million times more complex. Apparently it has emotions, it can like you or dislike you, it has trust you have to build with it, you have to feed it and heal it. In so many minutes it can act as a combative AI, a vehicular AI, a puzzle-tool AI... Etc. If any of that is remotely true – which is likely imo – then it likely will have complex and deep interactions.
This is all based on very terse interviews that came out years ago, when the thing was in full-blown development hell.
See my response above.
It was always clear that the graphics and style wouldn't change very much and that the core game mechanics wouldn't change very much.
The thing that had to change was the tech behind the game, which was the root cause of the delay. It was too much for PS3 and was proving way too much for Team Ico to design and implement because it was so ambitious. Hence the years of development hell, having to redesign for PS4 and also getting other development teams on board to help out.
Also this is a tiny vertical slice of the game. SotC had some scripted bits which were shown off, but most of the game wasn't so scripted and had a lot of freedom. This will be one of the more linear/scripted segments of TLG. They've said the game has a decent degree of freedom - though not as much as SotC obviously.
A) His voice is less annoying than Ico's
B) This is what a goddamn kid would soundlike. It's great that he sounds so real.]
People thought the same of The Last of Us and look how that turned out. (Re being certain that
one of them would die in the end.
Also you're possibly off the mark re telegraphed and basic interactions. Obviously this is all pieced together from tidbits, we won't know until the game comes out – but ostensibly the entire reason this game has taken 8 years is because the AI was so complex and the level of human/character interaction was insanely difficult to design and too demanding for a PS3. The catbird is essentially like a giant tamagochi but with behaviours a million times more complex. Apparently it has emotions, it can like you or dislike you, it has trust you have to build with it, you have to feed it and heal it. In so many minutes it can act as a combative AI, a vehicular AI, a puzzle-tool AI... Etc. If any of that is remotely true – which is likely imo – then it likely will have complex and deep interactions.
This is all based on very terse interviews that came out years ago, when the thing was in full-blown development hell.
See my response above.
It was always clear that the graphics and style wouldn't change very much and that the core game mechanics wouldn't change very much.
The thing that had to change was the tech behind the game, which was the root cause of the delay. It was too much for PS3 and was proving way too much for Team Ico to design and implement because it was so ambitious. Hence the years of development hell, having to redesign for PS4 and also getting other development teams on board to help out.
Also this is a tiny vertical slice of the game. SotC had some scripted bits which were shown off, but most of the game wasn't so scripted and had a lot of freedom. This will be one of the more linear/scripted segments of TLG. They've said the game has a decent degree of freedom - though not as much as SotC obviously.
I didn't ask what type of game it was. The section showed a lot of events and cutscenes and I'm just curious where that goes the more you progress. SotC had a lot more compelling gameplay for me so i'm interested if there is anything more than just a puzzle game exactly like Ico.
itchyass86
Member
Very happy that Trico is here and he looks exactly how he was envisioned to be. I think that there is so much to take in about The Last Guardian.
I find the premise of communicating with another organism is quite amazing. You can't understand each other's languages, and sometimes the 2 of you just sit there trying to figure out exactly what each other is thinking - in body language, facial changes, and with inflections with the voice. Often times there are misunderstandings or the 2 of you are focusing on totally different things.
That kind of possibility for interplay is what intrigued me about The Last Guardian all those years ago. Heck, I even saw a few instances of disconnect between the 2 characters in the trailer yesterday. It's sort of left up to the player to figure out what Trico is thinking. It also worked the other way too - Trico certainly took a second or two before cognitively understanding what the boy was trying to say as he twitches his ears. Sometimes it'll take the boy several repetitions of signalling til Trico finally gets it.
Then there's the other aspect that isn't cognitive. There are some reactions from Trico towards the boy that seems to stem from concern. These are the kinds of interplay that don't really require a kind of explicit or complex signalling, but Trico is able to identify situations when the boy is in immediate danger and then act accordingly.
I find Trico's character and reactions to be very peculiar as if he were a real companion to a boy. Seems pretty organic to me.
Don't really know where I'm going with this. I'm just really eager to see more interaction between Trico and the boy.
I find the premise of communicating with another organism is quite amazing. You can't understand each other's languages, and sometimes the 2 of you just sit there trying to figure out exactly what each other is thinking - in body language, facial changes, and with inflections with the voice. Often times there are misunderstandings or the 2 of you are focusing on totally different things.
That kind of possibility for interplay is what intrigued me about The Last Guardian all those years ago. Heck, I even saw a few instances of disconnect between the 2 characters in the trailer yesterday. It's sort of left up to the player to figure out what Trico is thinking. It also worked the other way too - Trico certainly took a second or two before cognitively understanding what the boy was trying to say as he twitches his ears. Sometimes it'll take the boy several repetitions of signalling til Trico finally gets it.
Then there's the other aspect that isn't cognitive. There are some reactions from Trico towards the boy that seems to stem from concern. These are the kinds of interplay that don't really require a kind of explicit or complex signalling, but Trico is able to identify situations when the boy is in immediate danger and then act accordingly.
I find Trico's character and reactions to be very peculiar as if he were a real companion to a boy. Seems pretty organic to me.
Don't really know where I'm going with this. I'm just really eager to see more interaction between Trico and the boy.
Because The Last Guardian was reaching Duke Nukem Forever levels of notoriety with how long it was taking.
Just like DNF, everyone and their mom foaming at the mouth for this game for 6 years here on GAF made me expect the the next big thing. But really, it doesn't look a bit different than when it was first seen.
Underwhelmed in that if you take 6 years and we jump a generation, I kind of expect your game to look like it jumped with the generation.
Final Fantasy XV (Versus XIII) is a good example of a game announced last gen that looked last gen and then made the leap to this gen and looks like it.
Reassertion: the Last Guardian was only recently brought out of mothballs because people kept bugging Sony for it, not because it's been actively developed on for 6 years.
I think dated or outmoded is an odd word to use. On a visual level, obviously it doesn't look like Horizon, but it does look like it has some nice detail in the texturing, great animation, and a pleasant overall aesthetic. It certainly doesn't look bad. I'm more concerned about the performance.
But more importantly, I really wish the gameplay were outmoded (subjunctive case is right here, right?). What games came out after this was unveiled in 2009 can I play to get this kind of gameplay? I am not saying it cynically but I'm genuinely curious. It looks like ICO, which is still pretty unique today. I can only think of that Majin game that tried this.
But more importantly, I really wish the gameplay were outmoded (subjunctive case is right here, right?). What games came out after this was unveiled in 2009 can I play to get this kind of gameplay? I am not saying it cynically but I'm genuinely curious. It looks like ICO, which is still pretty unique today. I can only think of that Majin game that tried this.
He kept saying the game wouldn't happen.
It's your own fault (not gafs) for making yourself expect something more. Every Ueda fan knows what to expect from him and last nights demo was clearly Ueda. If you wanted something else, that's on you.
I don't think it's quite the same.
A) Team Ico have delivered in the past, unlike DNF's team (or should I say mish-mash of teams)
B) We saw TLG in action not long after announcement. We actually saw that its style was on point, that the engine was at an advanced stage,
C) We know exactly why TLG was delayed - it had to be retooled for PS4 and then the AI tech had to be worked on extensively. (A huge undertaking for a technologically ambitious game). It wasn't solely direction, management and funding issues like DNF.
Edit: Also I don't think you're right about it being mothballed. What I've heard is that it was worked on consistently the entire time, bar occasional phases where teams were being moved around/merged to work on it. What's your evidence otherwise?
Doctor_Thomas
Member
I think TLG looks OK. I think the important thing is that it will be 1080p and probably 60fps rather than 720p and all over the place framerate it would be on PS3. I also think there's a lot of time to make improvements to the visuals, especially since it will probably be late next year before it releases.
What? DN3D was amazing at its time!
While I will def. be playing this, and am really looking forward to it, I have to agree that this kind of looks like it was shelved for some time and just recently picked back up again. If it was in active dev. for the last 6 years there would definitely have been more changes/advancements. Its going to be awesome either way, but I would have expected a stronger showing after all this time.
What I don't get though is no fixed release date, this was VERY important imo looking at its histroy. Why didn't they wait until next e3 and announce it there with a fixed date?
Nice post, and I agree with you.
I am somewhat reminded of Journey, where you had to interact with your companion via chirps, and in many of the times you could actually understand your companion, with no need for voice chat or messages.
This type of character interaction is quite rare in videogames,and TLG seems to be able to pull it off better than any other game to date. Now we wait some more, but for us it's not that hard to do. We're already veterans of waiting.
D
Deleted member 18827
Unconfirmed Member
That fucking Griffon. The eyes, the animation, I had forgotten how many feels they envoke. I'm already too attached to this creature lol.
DecoyOctopus
Member
Just finished watching the conference...guys....guys.........someone hold me!
...and it looks absolutely beautiful...animations are especially great!
...and it looks absolutely beautiful...animations are especially great!
YankeeDonB
Member
This thread is a good example of the collateral damage with a long hype cycle. Folks who played Ico and SotC have had a pretty good idea what we'll get w/ the last guardian (emotional story told through minimalist means, a melancholy atmosphere, interesting and evolving AI interaction rooting character growth and bonding), and the trailer suggests all that will be there in spades. And I am psyched! Particularly as a fairly serious animal trainer, I'm excited to see how far they go w/ the griffin thing's ability to learn, and how this interacts w/ his innate disposition. Seriously, I can think of no other game that gets into this stuff!
But, having become legend, w/ so little specific info, there's no way this was going to blow away the majority of Johnny-come-latelys, expecting Uncharted levels of adrenaline and huge set-pieces. That's not what the game is about, and never was going to be.
But, having become legend, w/ so little specific info, there's no way this was going to blow away the majority of Johnny-come-latelys, expecting Uncharted levels of adrenaline and huge set-pieces. That's not what the game is about, and never was going to be.
Cave Johnson
Member
Ok. Clearly you were smoking something. Please point out specifically where the QTE starts because I fail to see any.
Chocolate & Vanilla
Fuck Strawberry
Why are people still calling it a Catbird when it clearly whines and has mannerisms and muzzle of a Dogbird. Get you bird-mammal hybrids straight people
Same, except I ordered November 26, 2009 for $46.79. I'm sure they'll cancel them when they list the new product.
It reminds me of one my cats. Of course, we call him our puppycat, so point taken.
It's a little bit of everything but I think people lean towards cat because cats are better than dogs
Chocolate & Vanilla
Fuck Strawberry
I'm not ordinarily a violent man but I will fight you
Let's face it, if it was a cat it would have buggered off and left the boy for dead back in 2009.
YankeeDonB
Member
People, people, he clearly has the independent mindedness of a felid, coupled with the emotional sensitivity and devotion of a canid, tripled with the feathers and ability to fly of a fricking giant bird. He's a hybrid, so everyone wins.
Coinspinner
Member
So the child is the... last guardian? That's the impression I get.
This was everything I could have ever hoped for.
Honestly, the worst part about this is the mythos surrounding the Last Guardian mystery. It grew so big that it began to engage people who had never played Team Ico's fantastic offerings before as well as those who didn't care for them in the first place. They all got swept up in this wonderful ride and are disappointed when they finally realized it ended up in a place they were never interested in to begin with.
There's also the troll factor - not that everybody posting negative comments about the game are trolls - but when there's such a passionate fanbase like this, it can't be easy to ignore a ripe opportunity to cause some shenanigans.
But the art direction, the brilliant interaction with the hyppogryph hatchling, and the way you need to communicate with it through mime, all came together to wow me here. The way this massive creature still managed to appear so vulnerable really struck a chord with me. I cannot wait to experience this game.
Honestly, the worst part about this is the mythos surrounding the Last Guardian mystery. It grew so big that it began to engage people who had never played Team Ico's fantastic offerings before as well as those who didn't care for them in the first place. They all got swept up in this wonderful ride and are disappointed when they finally realized it ended up in a place they were never interested in to begin with.
There's also the troll factor - not that everybody posting negative comments about the game are trolls - but when there's such a passionate fanbase like this, it can't be easy to ignore a ripe opportunity to cause some shenanigans.
But the art direction, the brilliant interaction with the hyppogryph hatchling, and the way you need to communicate with it through mime, all came together to wow me here. The way this massive creature still managed to appear so vulnerable really struck a chord with me. I cannot wait to experience this game.
SomedayTheFire
Member
But you're not a fan of this style of game. Why would you be hyped? You got caught in the hype for a game you've no interest in. That's not Sony's fault. If you thought this game would end up radically different it's your own fault for getting caught up with it. It's a game with a very defined system, for people that enjoyed the previous games from this developer with that style.
I just can't express how happy I am right now. I'm still in awe, I replay that section of the conference and tear up all over again. This game has a special place in my heart and I have no idea why, maybe it's the gryphon, my love for pets when I was a kid, and Ueda's previous work. But no game has ever grabbed me in the same way.
Just give me this game and I don't want anything else.
Just give me this game and I don't want anything else.
Visualante2
Member
Betrayalton. I bought a PS3 for this game. Sony you're dead to me. DEAD you hear me.
Simbabbad
Member
The tropes in Shadow of the Colossus are what got me out of the game (that and the framerate), and I laughed during the ending.
I know this will be seen as a trollish comment, but it's my sincere experience. The game is a good game, it deserves to be a reference for a lot of things, but it's not exactly narratively subtle, and Team ICO is rather one-note and hammering when it comes to emotions or narration. Hey, even the demo of TLG is pretty much usual, expected stuff, even the way they play it is overdone (artificially waiting to run when the bridge collapses to build tension)... it's all very effective, but expected.
Didn't play The Last of US, never cared for it, so I can't comment on that.
So maybe they scratched it all because it just didn't work, and they went back to scripted gameplay? Frankly, the paragraph where you imagine what it might do reads like something from Peter Molyneux.
If really there was something complex going on, why not show it? Why not openly say it on stage and describe it? Why do fans have to "piece together from tidbits"? Instead, what they chose to show were very ordinary mechanics, but filmed in a cinematic way to cause emotions - just like they usually do. Yorda or the colossi weren't exactly AI masterpieces.
This game can be an excellent, very moving ICO sequel, but some of you are setting yourselves for disappointment. No element points to anything complex going on, and for all we know, this could be true:
(I think the graphics look fine.)
Mr. Giggles
Member
Wow...just Wow... didn't think it would ever happen but it did!!!!11
Portugeezer
Member
We need a Y2Kev memorial thread.
I think this conditioned response is the crux of a lot of this.
The act of not playing has been so ingrained into modern culture, the assumption of no control over anything interesting is so normalized, that people literally can not comprehend that there were no cutscenes, that every second was player controlled.
If anything, it's a hyena-bird. Compare Trico's face to a hyena's and it's clear that was the main mammal inspiration. Which I'm okay with because hyenas are adorable.
The way it hissed to that eye thing reminded me of a cat. But it looked afraid to go down the first stairs, and that's mostly a dogs thing. It's a mix.
Chocolate & Vanilla
Fuck Strawberry
Yeah, I can see that.
So? What's it to you? Let them be excited and let them be disappointed.
Bunch of party poopers around here. "Don't be excited because I didn't see anything to be excited about". Holy shit.
Regarding AI, I agree that collossi and yorda weren't great but Agro is pretty much the standard for videogame horses, imo. If they can work a similar AI system into TLGs creature, it can be pretty special. The thought of that excites me.
igordennis
Member
Im so happy that support group is dead. Im not sure how many more conferences we would have made it before going insane.
Played Brothers? replace one of them with a big beast :b BAM TLG!
that game doesn't rely on AI actually, you control both for double the feels!
Simbabbad
Member
Is it allowed to discuss the AI element of this game on this message board, or is it not? I read things that I don't think are true, so I post my opinion on this discussion board, and I back it up with the developer history and history of AI hyping in general. What is my opinion to you?
Where have I said there was "nothing exciting to be excited about"? A sequel to ICO is exciting in itself, there is no need to make up stuff that weren't showed or even hinted at to be excited IMO. On the opposite, believing stuff that isn't true is the best way to kill excitement when the game releases, there's nothing worse for a game than judging it from what you made up in your head rather than what it is.
Appreciate the response.
Although you're missing out on one of the greatest games of all time if you didn't play The Last of Us. There's a reason it's universally acclaimed, and that doesn't become apparent until 3-4 hours in.
I wasn't 100% talking out my ass when I was talking about the AI and what the AI will do (which you conveniently cut from the bit you quoted of my post).
- When the game was first announced, they explained that all these things were what they were going for. I didn't make up the stuff that 'might' be in the game.
- When the game went into development hell, there was a one-off, brief, snatched interview with someone like Mark Cerny months/years later. This senior person said the game's AI and systems were proving to be far more ambitious in implementation than previously realised, and that the team was undergoing a significant restructure to ensure the product would deliver on its promise (he didn't say it then, but we now know it moved to PS4 - this alone would add 1-2 years of development time, it's really, really not easy)
This suggests that the game's original design was still on the table - it was never redesigned, which we know from that trailer (if you know what you're looking for the AI-animation symbiosis on show in there is staggering), it just took a bloody long time and a next-gen jump to get it there. Maybe the whole story is more believable though if the game was simply put on pause for a few years.
I could spend the time to go back and find all these articles and tidbits. But I have neither time nor inclination at the moment (sorry).