I saw Bernie Sanders live in Madison tonight.

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Makai

Member
Foffy - the future is not that grim, damn. The US economy has a substantial safety net which assists millions of people who are unable to work, and it's growing stronger.

pm-gr-disability_diagnosesb-616.gif

Sure, it's not as extravagant as Denmark's, but it will spare us from automagedden. It's a self-fixing problem. Politicians like Bernie will become more popular as displacement increases and they will reaffirm our commitment to redistributive policy.
 

subrock

Member
As much as I would love Bernie to win, I think Hilary has been a lock since 2012. Maybe Bernie can come up and run Canada instead.
 

Damaniel

Banned
Bernie has some really great and noble ideas but the challenge is how does one implement such "radical" changes over 4-8 years rather than a couple of decades.

You don't. As long as Republicans own the House and Senate, Bernie's policy proposals have absolutely zero chance of going anywhere. Bernie supporters are going to be very upset when they realize that his populist vision is a non-starter.

At the earliest, you might be able to turn the House by 2020, maybe 2024 depending on redistricting. The Senate might be changed in 2016, but what good is having the Senate without having the House?

Personally, I'll take the realistic choice over the choice that leads to absolutely nothing. If that makes me a corporate stooge or a water carrier for the oligarchs and 1%-ers (as Bernie supporters are apt to call anyone who supports any candidate other than theirs), then so be it.

I'd rather vote Bernie than Clinton.

So would I, but I'm a realist. A self-declared socialist can't - and won't - win in the current political climate, and no amount of hoping and wishing will change that. I'd be thrilled to have President Bernie (or someone else of his political bent), but I don't think that a majority of Americans would.
 
I'd be thrilled to have President Bernie (or someone else of his political bent), but I don't think that a majority of Americans would.

I don't think you understand what's happening. If these people showing up to events are indeed Bernie supporters and not just there to hear what he has to say...then he will win. We're 7 months out before voting begins and he is bringing in huge General Election type crowds...sure in liberal cities...but nevertheless this is really remarkable. The fact he has more people on board than Obama at this time in 07 is also amazing. Not as much money but still more people.

Are all the centric and right leaning Democrats going to stay home or vote Republican? Go ahead...ruin the country. Bernie will win the general election. As I said before there is a Blue firewall of 241 Electoral Votes. All he needs to do is pick up Florida and he is President. I'd argue Bernie will pull more Republicans than Democrats that flee...I also predict he'll get a lot of disgruntled people who haven't voted in years to come out as well. If he puts Warren on the ticket with him...I see no way how he loses a General Election.
 
Live speech in Portland, Maine right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9poJU6Kiw

I was there. Massive crowd! They had one end of the arena blocked off with a screen for some stupid reason, but with all the people standing and on the arena floor, it was probably close to the 9,000 that the arena can hold... quite impressive! Bernie can't win (if nothing else, the word "socialist" alone dooms him), and I'm fine with Hillary too (in '08 I supported her over Obama), but it's great that a definite liberal is running, and getting attention.

The speech was good. It was pretty much what I'd expect a Bernie Sanders speech to be -- that is, mostly focused on economic issues, such as raising the minimum wage (he talked about wages for quite some time), breaking up the banks, student loan forgiveness, free college, and such. At an hour long it felt a bit long, much longer than Obama and Bill Clinton's speeches in Portland last year for Michaud, for example, but that's okay, there was a lot of content there. He's obviously running entirely on domestic issues -- except for a comment on opposing trade deals like the TPP, there was not one word in the whole thing of foreign affairs, though he did mention climate change a bit near the end. I wasn't expecting it, but something would have been nice... I do find foreign policy quite interesting. Oh well.

As far as the issues go, everything he mentioned at the speech sounds good. His mixed record on gun control excepted (not mentioned in the speech) Bernie is amazing on most domestic issues, but I'm not as sure about foreign. I certainly like that he opposed invading Iraq in '03, anyway.

So yeah, it was good, I liked it. My two main issues would be that while Bernie is a good speaker he probably isn't a really inspiring one, and while it is really important I don't find economics all that interesting, which was a bit of an issue for an hour-long speech all about that. The one economics class I took in college was probably the college course I liked least... still though, it was a fun event to go to. The size of the crowd was particularly impressive; going from a reported 3,000 replies to a crowd of eight or nine thousand at the actual event is great! It's impressive how well Bernie is doing at the moment compared to the last 'guy to the left of the leader', Dennis Kucinich. So yeah, it was fun, and Bernie would certainly make a fantastic president if he could actually get elected. If Hillary comes to town I'll go to that too. We just need a Democrat to win in 2016, that's the most important thing...

Oh, and lastly, did I miss something, or did Troy Jackson not get introduced before he spoke (he had a short speech before Bernie started)? I knew who he was because I've heard him speak before, but that was a bit odd...

Bernie has some really great and noble ideas but the challenge is how does one implement such "radical" changes over 4-8 years rather than a couple of decades.
He spent the beginning part of the speech talking about movements such as the Civil, Women's, and Gay Rights movements as a way of saying that people need to form that kind of movement for economic issues today too; he said that no one president can do everything all on their own, they need help. He's not promising to change everything all on his own.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
As much as I would love Bernie to win, I think Hilary has been a lock since 2012. Maybe Bernie can come up and run Canada instead.
Bernie knows his job is to get his platform out there, motivate the base, and push Hillary to the left. So far, I'd say mission accomplished.
 

YoungHav

Banned
How does Bernie get the attention of minorities en masse? I feel like there's too many knee-jerk Hillary supporters amongst them.
 
Bernie knows his job is to get his platform out there, motivate the base, and push Hillary to the left. So far, I'd say mission accomplished.

I don't get the "push Hillary to the left" argument. Sure maybe a bit in the primaries, but once the general election heats up, both candidates will be fighting for the middle - the Independents and undecideds.

And this whole idea that Hillary will "move" to the left just to please her base makes her sound like a hollow candidate without any firm convictions (which in some ways is true and not very reassuring).
 
You don't. As long as Republicans own the House and Senate, Bernie's policy proposals have absolutely zero chance of going anywhere. Bernie supporters are going to be very upset when they realize that his populist vision is a non-starter.

One should point out that as long as republicans have congress on lock, nearly any democratic policy proposal has absolutely zero change of going anywhere.

I can't quite see why it would be different with Hillster.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
One should point out that as long as republicans have congress on lock, nearly any democratic policy proposal has absolutely zero change of going anywhere.

I can't quite see why it would be different with Hillster.

I think the argument is something like: Hillary and Bernie would probably not represent dramatically different presidencies as Republicans control Congress, but Hillary is more likely to get elected, so the pay-offs are better.
 
How does Bernie get the attention of minorities en masse? I feel like there's too many knee-jerk Hillary supporters amongst them.

loyalty voters

blocks of minority voters tend to be the most loyal towards a candidate or a candidate affiliated with a past candidate.

Bernie Sanders may do well among youngsters and college kids but Hillary has the lock on minority voters. It's just the way it is, they were loyal to Bill and that loyalty transfers to Hillary.
 

slit

Member
I don't get the "push Hillary to the left" argument. Sure maybe a bit in the primaries, but once the general election heats up, both candidates will be fighting for the middle - the Independents and undecideds.

And this whole idea that Hillary will "move" to the left just to please her base makes her sound like a hollow candidate without any firm convictions (which in some ways is true and not very reassuring).

But that's pretty much true in all of politics with only a few exceptions. If you knock out the hollow politicians, there is no one left to vote for. It's simply the nature of politics.

You try your best to appeal to everybody you can hence being hollow.
 
But that's pretty much true in all of politics with only a few exceptions. If you knock out the hollow politicians, there is no one left to vote for. It's simply the nature of politics.

You try your best to please everybody hence being hollow.

Well yeah if you put it that way. I mean I agree, the whole process is a cynical clusterfuck of political shenanigans. But Hillary really reeks of opportunism.
 

Kill3r7

Member
He's trying to motivate people to get involved locally and regionally and to not let up on the pressure after he's elected.

I was there. Massive crowd! They had one end of the arena blocked off with a screen for some stupid reason, but with all the people standing and on the arena floor, it was probably close to the 9,000 that the arena can hold... quite impressive! Bernie can't win (if nothing else, the word "socialist" alone dooms him), and I'm fine with Hillary too (in '08 I supported her over Obama), but it's great that a definite liberal is running, and getting attention.

The speech was good. It was pretty much what I'd expect a Bernie Sanders speech to be -- that is, mostly focused on economic issues, such as raising the minimum wage (he talked about wages for quite some time), breaking up the banks, student loan forgiveness, free college, and such.

He spent the beginning part of the speech talking about movements such as the Civil, Women's, and Gay Rights movements as a way of saying that people need to form that kind of movement for economic issues today too; he said that no one president can do everything all on their own, they need help. He's not promising to change everything all on his own.

How many of his goals are actually feasible?People say they want change but when it is time to do the hard work history has proven that people can't be bothered. The civil rights, women's and Gay rights movement took decades to achieve their objectives. As I said earlier, Bernie can lay the ground work for change but real change won't occur until a couple of decades after he leaves office. For example President Obama openly admits that a single payer system was/is the logical solution to our healthcare conundrum but there is no way such policy could be implemented today. Ultimately something is better than nothing and IMO if Bermie were to be elected he would have to make lots of concessions to accomplish even one of his talking points.
 

Cheebo

Banned
Can a Bernie-Stan explain to me how they expect Bernie to get more liberal policies through the heavily republican Congress than Hillary would?

The GOP ain't going to let any of his more extreme liberal policies through. Hell the watered down Obamacare had a hard time passing through a democrat congress due moderate Democrats.

Because no matter who wins the GOP controlls congress. That is not changing anytime soon.
 
To gaf's progressives: theoretically, if you had to choose between a narrow win for Bernie with a Republican Congress and a decent sized Hillary victory that brings with it a Democratic Congress, which would you pick?

(Not that the latter is all that likely to happen, but, say that it did.)
 
To gaf's progressives: theoretically, if you had to choose between a narrow win for Bernie with a Republican Congress and a decent sized Hillary victory that brings with it a Democratic Congress, which would you pick?

(Not that the latter is all that likely to happen, but, say that it did.)

Obvious choice: Extensive foreign policy experience plus a congress willing to enact liberal policies.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
To gaf's progressives: theoretically, if you had to choose between a narrow win for Bernie with a Republican Congress and a decent sized Hillary victory that brings with it a Democratic Congress, which would you pick?

(Not that the latter is all that likely to happen, but, say that it did.)

The latter every time even though it is a pipe dream barring some unforeseen circumstance next year.
 
LoL@ Anyone not voting because they think Clinton is more of the same. If you're tired of politics as usual, vote in the midterms and change congress.

If you don't vote this time, and let a Republican win, we're going to have a conservative- run executive, judicial, AND legislative branch.

In short, we'd be fucked.
We're already tucked, between Hillary and a Republican candidate we're merely negotiating over lubricant.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
We're already tucked, between Hillary and a Republican candidate we're merely negotiating over lubricant.

Yes, and when the choice is between lubricant laced with sand and cut glass and a lubricant that is thankfully smooth, I'd say it is fairly important that you still make a choice, no? If not for yourself, at least for those who are even more likely to be fucked than you are.
 

dramatis

Member
We're already tucked, between Hillary and a Republican candidate we're merely negotiating over lubricant.
To the women in this country, I doubt "negotiating over lubricant" is the difference between a Republican candidate and Hillary. I mean, there's only equal pay, contraceptives, abortion, and so on. But I guess you're caught up on yourself and your wants that you forget about other people.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
We're already tucked, between Hillary and a Republican candidate we're merely negotiating over lubricant.

Deep down you know its not the same but I feel that your letting strong selfish desires cloud your judgement. I can understand your disappointment over the years with Democratic nominees heck politicians in general but we still need baby steps. When you get into that voting booth in the general(if its Hillary) think about your kids(if you have any)nieces and nephews etc and ask yourself: Do I want my family under a Jeb Bush or Scott Walker Presidency with a combined congress + appointed conservative SC justices for decades to come? Vote for HIllary but think of a Hillary vote as a vote for your kids, nieces and nephews etc. Feingold is a vote for your kids too.

That last part goes for any skeptical democrats come the fall if things go like I'm certain it will go. We had to do the same thing with Obama 8 years ago.
 
Deep down you know its not the same but I feel that your letting strong selfish desires cloud your judgement. I can understand your disappointment over the years with Democratic nominees heck politicians in general but we still need baby steps. When you get into that voting booth in the general(if its Hillary) think about your kids(if you have any)nieces and nephews etc and ask yourself: Do I want my family under a Jeb Bush or Scott Walker Presidency with a combined congress + appointed SC justices for decades to come?

You can't reason with with disastermouse's perspective, the actual consequences aren't a priority.
 
Can a Bernie-Stan explain to me how they expect Bernie to get more liberal policies through the heavily republican Congress than Hillary would?

The GOP ain't going to let any of his more extreme liberal policies through. Hell the watered down Obamacare had a hard time passing through a democrat congress due moderate Democrats.

Because no matter who wins the GOP controlls congress. That is not changing anytime soon.
The Dems have a decent chance of retaking the Senate, I believe.
 

Moofers

Member
I'm very excited to hear about how much traction Bernie's appearances seem to be getting. He's the only person running for President who actually inspires confidence that we can still turn things around. I have no faith in Hillary to do anything other than give us more of the same shit we've been getting with Obama. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Obama, but I don't think he's 100% clean and I think Hillary looks even shadier. I think she just wants to be President and I get the impression she'll do anything to get it. Bernie is the only one that seems like somebody who really gives a damn and is willing to say things that may be unpopular with some. He's also the only one that doesn't give me the impression he's got big money behind the scenes pressuring him to do their bidding.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
I'm very excited to hear about how much traction Bernie's appearances seem to be getting. He's the only person running for President who actually inspires confidence that we can still turn things around. I have no faith in Hillary to do anything other than give us more of the same shit we've been getting with Obama. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Obama, but I don't think he's 100% clean and I think Hillary looks even shadier. I think she just wants to be President and I get the impression she'll do anything to get it. Bernie is the only one that seems like somebody who really gives a damn and is willing to say things that may be unpopular with some. He's also the only one that doesn't give me the impression he's got big money behind the scenes pressuring him to do their bidding.
What the fuck does this even mean?

And God forbid we get another president that accomplishes as much as Obama has despite unprecedented obstruction.
 
To the women in this country, I doubt "negotiating over lubricant" is the difference between a Republican candidate and Hillary. I mean, there's only equal pay, contraceptives, abortion, and so on. But I guess you're caught up on yourself and your wants that you forget about other people.
No, I'm talking about the fact that all politics is founded on economics and class struggle. I don't think that Hillary could get much done on any of the issues that you mentioned. It's also important to realize that only progressive social issues are ever allowed to move forward as they don't really interfere with Capitalism. Progressive economic goals certainly wouldn't move forward under Hillary, and without an economically enfranchised working class, any and all forward movement can easily be rolled back.
 
Deep down you know its not the same but I feel that your letting strong selfish desires cloud your judgement. I can understand your disappointment over the years with Democratic nominees heck politicians in general but we still need baby steps. When you get into that voting booth in the general(if its Hillary) think about your kids(if you have any)nieces and nephews etc and ask yourself: Do I want my family under a Jeb Bush or Scott Walker Presidency with a combined congress + appointed conservative SC justices for decades to come? Vote for HIllary but think of a Hillary vote as a vote for your kids, nieces and nephews etc. Feingold is a vote for your kids too.

That last part goes for any skeptical democrats come the fall if things go like I'm certain it will go. We had to do the same thing with Obama 8 years ago.
I'm getting really tired of having my act of exercising my vote as I see fit as something 'selfish'. I have Russ' back for sure, but Hillary? I don't think I can do it. I don't dislike her, I simply don't think she'll do what needs to be done.
 
I'm getting really tired of having my act of exercising my vote as I see fit as something 'selfish'. I have Russ' back for sure, but Hillary? I don't think I can do it. I don't dislike her, I simply don't think she'll do what needs to be done.

In our two-party system, where the viable candidates are always known based on who gets the Dem/GOP nominations, the consequences of not voting for someone (from one of the established parties) are always that you make it easier for the other-party candidate to defeat them, regardless of whether you have the confidence you'd like to have in the less undesirable candidate. A vote against a Democrat nominee is in effect (i.e. statistically speaking) a vote for the Republican nominee (specifically, a vote someone else casts that won't be canceled out by your vote for a Democrat nominee).

From that perspective, deciding not to vote because you aren't personally satisfied with the candidates really is selfish in the truest sense, since abstinence from voting has a practical impact on millions of people. Meanwhile, all you really get out of it is the satisfaction of your purely self-serving interest in not voting for people who don't meet a particular standard. You don't even get a substantial push toward the ideals you want to see! (That's the job of the primaries.)
 
In our two-party system, where the viable candidates are always known based on who gets the Dem/GOP nominations, the consequences of not voting for someone (from one of the established parties) are always that you make it easier for the other-party candidate to defeat them, regardless of whether you have the confidence you'd like to have in the less undesirable candidate. A vote against a Democrat nominee is in effect (i.e. statistically speaking) a vote for the Republican nominee (specifically, a vote someone else casts that won't be canceled out by your vote for a Democrat nominee).

From that perspective, deciding not to vote because you aren't personally satisfied with the candidates really is selfish in the truest sense, since abstinence from voting has a practical impact on millions of people. Meanwhile, all you really get out of it is the satisfaction of your purely self-serving interest in not voting for people who don't meet a particular standard. You don't even get a substantial push toward the ideals you want to see! (That's the job of the primaries.)
Exercising my vote is a personal decision. It can't be said to be more or less selfish than, say, a vote for Hillary by a voter who really wants to vote for Hillary. Just like that Hillary voter, I also want to vote for a candidate I truly support. To call my desire for a candidate that I support selfish but not the desire by a Hillary voter for a candidate he or she can support is manipulative.
 
Exercising my vote is a personal decision.

"Personal decision" implies that it's one that you make about your life that doesn't impact anyone else.

Elections and voting are not personal decisions. They are public, civic, participatory decisions that touch hundreds of millions of people.

It can't be said to be more or less selfish than, say, a vote for Hillary by a voter who really wants to vote for Hillary.

It's definitely more selfish, because it's a choice that isn't made based on actual outcomes but based on personal (your word) satisfaction with the choices of candidates. Since selfishness is literally a lack of consideration for how your actions have consequences on others, and a concern chiefly for one's own pleasure, comfort, or whatever, I don't see how it could be anything but.

Just like that Hillary voter, I also want to vote for a candidate I truly support. To call my desire for a candidate that I support selfish but not the desire by a Hillary voter for a candidate he or she can support is manipulative.

Your desire for a candidate you support is fine. Naturally, if you support the candidates, you probably think their policy stances are the best not just for you but for everyone. That's certainly not selfish.

But the thing about candidates for office in the United States is that no matter who the best candidate is, there are only two viable candidates in the general election. In that case, abstaining for voting for either one of those candidates is a pure self-interest play, as your choice actually, practically, really, truly, definitely, demonstrably winds up detracting from the preferable (viable) outcome--again, for millions of people who are not you.

That this is how elections work in America is certainly the result of intense manipulation occurring over the course of hundreds of years isn't really disputed. But that is how they work, and our decisions affect reality, not some ideal world where I could vote for a third-party candidate and in the end that candidate might actually win.
 

Moofers

Member
What the fuck does this even mean?

And God forbid we get another president that accomplishes as much as Obama has despite unprecedented obstruction.

Despite all the Goldman Sachs talk, I never doubted Obama until he started trying so hard to push the TPP. Now I don't know what to think. I can't help but think he's sold out to some extent. I mean look at that fuckin thing.

And Hillary just comes across as shady to me. I don't know how to explain it better than that. I have the impression that her stance on certain things has shifted here and there and I remember she jumped on the bandwagon when piling on videogames was in style. Sorry, I just don't think she's some perfect candidate devoid of flaws. I'd still take her over anyone in the batshit party, but I wouldn't be very excited about her winning the democratic nomination.
 

Moofers

Member
But the thing about candidates for office in the United States is that no matter who the best candidate is, there are only two viable candidates in the general election. In that case, abstaining for voting for either one of those candidates is a pure self-interest play, as your choice actually, practically, really, truly, definitely, demonstrably winds up detracting from the preferable (viable) outcome--again, for millions of people who are not you.

That this is how elections work in America is certainly the result of intense manipulation occurring over the course of hundreds of years isn't really disputed. But that is how they work, and our decisions affect reality, not some ideal world where I could vote for a third-party candidate and in the end that candidate might actually win.

That's horseshit. You don't vote for the person you think could win, you vote for the candidate you WANT to win. If you do that, you voted and fulfilled your duty as a citizen. If there is a "none of the above" box to check, you did your job and voted.
 

Cheebo

Banned
We're already tucked, between Hillary and a Republican candidate we're merely negotiating over lubricant.
Their superme court picks would be VASTLY different. The idea that Walker/Rubio/Jeb would nominate similar judges as Hillary is god damn deusional to even entertain.

What you are saying has no basis in reality.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
That's horseshit. You don't vote for the person you think could win, you vote for the candidate you WANT to win. If you do that, you voted and fulfilled your duty as a citizen. If there is a "none of the above" box to check, you did your job and voted.

your right and when they dont win the primary you have a nominee you didnt want and now its a choice of the former who could win.
 
That's horseshit. You don't vote for the person you think could win, you vote for the candidate you WANT to win. If you do that, you voted and fulfilled your duty as a citizen. If there is a "none of the above" box to check, you did your job and voted.
This!
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
And the man keeps drawing big crowds as time goes on!

If he loses the nomination, I hope he goes independent and joins the Greens.

What, so the left-vote is split and Trump gets elected? Man, you have the worst ideas.
 

dramatis

Member
No. Giving your vote to a subpar candidate is to be complicit in their mediocrity.
So this is how we got Bush term two, huh? Because of people like you who think your high standards and perfect idealism are worth more than practical solutions in reality that might actually do something to help people, just maybe not you.

Is your "economically enfranchised working class" really the only thing you will ever strive for, because god forbid immigrants, blacks, or women have any social or civil rights issues addressed before your economic revolution? Is it also because you're so self-centered that you're not thinking about future consequences? I thought that was the domain of the young and the conceited, but apparently it affects the old and bitter.

Economics may be a huge influence in politics, but it is not the only component of politics. Your pseudo philosophy has very little to do with current reality. Your unwillingness to look further and see what your vote means to your community or country is ironically characteristic of the typical self-serving, capitalistic behavior that you so adamantly side with Bernie Sanders against.
 
No. Giving your vote to a subpar candidate is to be complicit in their mediocrity.

By not voting for a "subpar" candidate, you are complicit in supporting their opposition. Who will be considerably worse politically than the subpar candidate. If the democrats lose, they won't see the lack of votes for a subpar candidate as, "We weren't liberal enough," they'll see it as, "We weren't conservative enough."
 

NeoXChaos

Member
By not voting for a "subpar" candidate, you are complicit in supporting their opposition. Who will be considerably worse politically than the subpar candidate. If the democrats lose, they won't see the lack of votes for a subpar candidate as, "We weren't liberal enough," they'll see it as, "We weren't conservative enough."

exactly and the inverse is if they went with Bernie and lost, they will see it as "we were too liberal" and "we were not conservative enough". People dont like the 72' comparisons with McGovern but its worth a read. That is precisely why the party went with Bill Clinton after the Dukakis defeat. I guess the question is after 25 years, can another Dukakis or McGovern like candidate such as Sanders finally win

Sooner or later, many party voters also think about the general election. Were he somehow to appear on the November 2016 ballot as the Democratic nominee, Bernie Sanders would probably be another George McGovern. In this polarized era, Sanders would do better than McGovern’s 38% of the vote, but he’d lose — unless Republicans nominated one of their unelectable far-right candidates. (Such an extreme major-party match-up would generate one or more well-funded independent contenders — but now we’re in the realm of fiction.)

So far, Sanders has been compared not to McGovern but to Eugene McCarthy, the Minnesota senator whose insurgent campaign helped to force President Lyndon Johnson into retirement in 1968. There’s a superficial case to be made for that. For instance, Johnson orchestrated the Vietnam War and Clinton voted for the Iraq War. But don’t you think there’s a world of difference between a sitting president whose unpopular war is ongoing and a candidate who voted for another president’s war more than a dozen years ago? A lot has happened since. Clinton has admitted she was wrong to back President George W. Bush. She’s been Secretary of State and mended fences with Obama. In addition, at present she’s no worse than a 50-50 bet in the ’16 general election against any of the potential Republican nominees.

The idea that has taken hold among some is that, having won Iowa and New Hampshire, Sanders would force Clinton out of the race, just as McCarthy pushed LBJ out, and then a more electable Democrat (the new Robert F. Kennedy) would jump in and take the nomination. This is ridiculous on its face. The rules today are completely different than in ’68: Late-entering candidates (Sen. Elizabeth Warren? Vice President Joe Biden?) would have a devil of a time getting on the ballot in many states. There will never be another Vice President Hubert Humphrey, who was handed the Democratic nomination without entering a single primary; the era of boss rule is long over. If Sanders’ recent performance is prompting second thoughts from Biden or Warren, they need to get in this race now if they want to have any chance to be the nominee.

We’ve also heard a few able analysts say that Bernie Sanders could be the new Gary Hart (from 1984, not 1988). Hart nearly seized the Democratic nomination from the establishment favorite, former Vice President Walter Mondale. Yet this comparison doesn’t hold water either. Democrats were facing a popular incumbent president, Ronald Reagan, and many thought the youthful, Kennedy-esque Hart was a better gamble for a tough campaign.

The 2016 picture for Democrats is much different, and Clinton remains in a commanding position.

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/democrats-2016-not-feeling-the-bern/
 

NeoXChaos

Member
And the man keeps drawing big crowds as time goes on!

If he loses the nomination, I hope he goes independent and joins the Greens.

means absolutely nothing. Tell that to President Romney.

Crowd size is mostly irrelevant

An emerging storyline in the last few weeks has been the sizable crowds that have shown up to hear from Sanders. In Minneapolis, over 3,000 people listened to Sanders at a mass meeting; in Denver, almost 5,000 people; in Madison, WI, nearly 10,000; and, most recently, around 8,000 in Portland, ME.

However, it’s important to remember that crowd size fundamentally doesn’t matter much. Comparisons between how large one candidate’s crowd is compared to another’s are ripe for misunderstanding. Just think back to 2012, when press reports and GOP partisans frequently mentioned the large numbers that Mitt Romney was drawing on the campaign trail. Did this end up mattering? Obama won the popular vote by about 5 million votes. The history of “crowdsmanship” is long, and as Louisiana politico Robert Mann noted back in 2012, full of anecdotal evidence that wound up meaning nothing.

Consider the demographics of Denver, Madison, Minneapolis, and Portland: Of those four, only the Mile High City is less than 60% white (53%), and of the 50 biggest cities in the United States, Denver and Minneapolis are among the 18 that are majority non-Hispanic white. Portland is the biggest city in Maine, over 80% white, and located in the Pine Tree State’s most liberal area, Cumberland County. Madison is three-fourths white and an über-liberal university city — it’s no surprise so many people showed up to see Sanders there. In fact, many college towns are going to be among the most receptive to Sanders’ campaign message. Take Charlottesville, VA, for example. One of the Crystal Ball’s writers tried to scout out Sanders when he came to the home of the University of Virginia in May, but the venue only held about 200-300 people and was packed to fire-code capacity by the time he arrived at the front of a long line. Nonetheless, Sanders smartly engaged the many who couldn’t get inside with an impromptu talk.

Sanders’ support in places such as Madison and Charlottesville is indicative of where his principal backing is drawn. National surveys and polls in Iowa and New Hampshire all show him performing noticeably stronger among more left-leaning voters than more moderate ones. At the same time, Clinton seems to be running fairly equally among liberal and moderate Democrats, an indicator of her broad support within the party, even with Sanders’ recent rise. Just as only a few Republicans seem to have the multi-factional appeal to truly compete for their party’s nomination, Clinton is in a similar position when it comes to Democratic voters.

At the end of the day, the crowd sizes don’t indicate that Sanders will win — far from it — but the one takeaway from them is that the left wing of the Democratic Party wants to entertain the idea of a Clinton-less future, and Sanders is the candidate who has received the left’s energy at this point. As he is to the left of the other Democratic candidates not named Clinton, he’s become a natural focal point for frustration with Clinton’s ties to Wall Street, her center-left outlook, and her foreign policy past (e.g., her Iraq War vote).
 
My question for you is it is well agreed upon the next President may get as many as 4 Supreme Court nominees.

Wisconsin is traditionally a swing state.

Do you really want to help put in power 4 new conservative Supreme Court justices with your refusal to vote?

Truth is politics is politics. I don't think republicans will allow four new liberal justices into the Supreme Court. They'll make a fuss and Hillary will pick someone down the middle like Kennedy to keep the swing vote there. I'm not saying it won't matter but I don't expect any radical changes in our government

And the man keeps drawing big crowds as time goes on!

If he loses the nomination, I hope he goes independent and joins the Greens.

He'll split the left and make it easy for republicans
 
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