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[Miles Quaritch]

Punchhing isn't the only reaction a human is capable of in this situation. He isn't some poor sap standing around waiting for a drink getting blind sided. Dude is crowding the bar and the girl to the extent that he has to literally grab and hold onto the bar to remain near to it. Could have simply taken a step back and avoided everything. Even after she turned around and started acting irrationally.

I'd ask when he should be forced to take a step back? Why didn't the woman simply make way for the guy instead of seemingly trying to block him and then taking offence when he finally makes it to the bar.

He didn't provoke anything, he was simply there for a drink and he was attacked. To say he should have done this, he should have done that isn't that far off from victim blaming.

I was more referring to the line that he was "forced to take action". He wasn't. His response was extreme and absurd.

I also don't believe she was particularly threatening, no. I wouldn't have perceived her as a threat. If she was being that difficult I'd have just found somewhere else to stand.

I believe he was. He tried to restrain her, he was surrounded by her friends who were grabbing at him, he was forced to act in a way that would bring a quick end to the situation and wouldn't result in him being subjected to more unprovoked assaults.

 

[Dude Abides]

What she did was battery by the letter of the law. It is plain and clear in that regard.

Why has she not been charged?

Maybe because the prosecutor is an actual lawyer as opposed to someone who plays one on the internet.

 

[Jenov]

What she did was battery by the letter of the law. It is plain and clear in that regard.

Why has she not been charged?

Maybe she will be? Did he file a charge against her? He doesn't have any injuries though. The prosecutor decided against doing so, but the quarterback can pursue it.

 

[super-heated plasma]

Speak for yourself pipsqueak. Me and the other Division 1 quarterbacks in this thread have a different perspective of threatening.

You think you've seen tough? My high school football team, now that was tough. When they finished sacking the quarterback, they went after his family!

 

[Jobbs]

I believe he was. He tried to restrain her, he was surrounded by her friends who were grabbing at him, he was forced to act in a way that would bring a quick end to the situation and wouldn't result in him being subjected to more unprovoked assaults.

We must not be watching the same video. I don't see a single other person touch or advance on him in any way. Maybe I'm the crazy one (I seem outnumbered) so I'll say this one more time then move on -- If you view the clips in the OP and think the guy behaved correctly and you would do the same thing, then I have concerns about you.

 

[Nicktals]

You're accusing the prosecution of being sexist then? Perhaps? But where's your proof? A woman and a man getting into a fight, and hitting her hard enough to cause damage and getting charged for it doesn't automatically mean sexist.

Honestly, all these comments about how she's receiving special status because "she has a vagina" comes across as rather sexist on their own.

Also, she committed battery first...Assuming he should be thinking clearly after being attacked isn't close to victim blaming, it IS victim blaming.

 

[Jobbs]

Also, she committed battery first...Assuming he should be thinking clearly after being attacked isn't close to victim blaming, it IS victim blaming.

LOL

Okay, I'm moving on from the thread.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

We must not be watching the same video. I don't see a single other person touch or advance on him in any way. Maybe I'm the crazy one (I seem outnumbered) so I'll say this one more time then move on -- If you view the three clips in the OP and think the guy behaved correctly and you would do the same thing, then I have concerns about you.

Then you're not paying attention.

I posted numerous stills from the video where you can see her friends grabbing at him.

 

[Nicktals]

LOL

Okay, I'm moving on from the thread.

What?

EDIT: If a man swung at a woman and just grazed her, and she tazed/maced him, she should be charged, right?

Just reverse the situation and it's easy to see how this is sexist.

 

[Kenstar]

Maybe she will be? Did he file a charge against her? He doesn't have any injuries though.

If I take a swing at you with a bat and barely miss does it not count as assault with a deadly weapon?
If I point a gun at you and pull the trigger but the round is a dud does it not count as attempted murder?
If I knee you and punch but miss your chin does it not count as battery?

 

[Jenov]

I'm saying this thread is evidence that many people think we should think of, and treat, women differently. I'm accusing the prosecution and our culture of being sexist, yes.

What does it being a woman and a man have to do with it?

Being a woman and a man has nothing to do with it. You're the one suggesting that his charges are only a result of "her having a vagina." Personally I think his charges are a result of his use of force not being proportional, and being seen as battery by the prosecutor. If it were a man vs man I wouldn't be surprised to see the same charges.

 

[Lynn616]

What she did was battery by the letter of the law. It is plain and clear in that regard.

Why has she not been charged?

Assault is the threat. From the video she assaulted him first. Battery is the physical touch. He grabbed her first.

She would be charged with assault if the prosecution thinks her fist in the air warrants it. He would be charged with assault by grabbing her. If the prosecution thinks she was a not a reasonable threat.

Hell I don't know anymore. I tip my hat to everyone on both sides in this thread. Well done.

I going to go drink.

 

[Nicktals]

Being a woman and a man has nothing to do with it. You're the one suggesting that his charges are only a result of "her having a vagina." Personally I think his charges are a result of his use of force not being proportional, and being seen as battery by the prosecutor. If it were a man vs man I wouldn't be surprised to see the same charges.

I would. Who punched first is the law of the land in bar fights.

 

[RSTEIN]

I'd ask when he should be forced to take a step back? Why didn't the woman simply make way for the guy instead of seemingly trying to block him and then taking offence when he finally makes it to the bar.

He didn't provoke anything, he was simply there for a drink and he was attacked. To say he should have done this, he should have done that isn't that far off from victim blaming.

Well, unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. In a perfect world she would have said, "sure, come up to the bar and have a drink."

I believe he was. He tried to restrain her, he was surrounded by her friends who were grabbing at him, he was forced to act in a way that would bring a quick end to the situation and wouldn't result in him being subjected to more unprovoked assaults.

He was not forced to act that way.You keep saying that. How was he forced to punch the person in the face?

 

[Syriel]

Maybe because the prosecutor is an actual lawyer as opposed to someone who plays one on the internet.

Appeals to authority are really poor debate tactics, as it usually means there is no counter argument.

Unless you think that law enforcement is always right? Guess that would make things like Ferguson pretty cut-and-dried in your eyes.

Maybe she will be? Did he file a charge against her? He doesn't have any injuries though. The prosecutor decided against doing so, but the quarterback can pursue it.

Again, by the letter of the law (which was just quoted in this thread) injuries are not required. And individuals cannot pursue criminal charges.

What she did is a textbook definition of simple battery in FL. You can argue that he crossed the line of self-defense, but that does not erase her actions.

The white woman clearly broke the law, and the prosecutor declined to file charges.
The black man possibly broke the law (depending on if it was self-defense or not), and the prosecutor decided to file charges.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Maybe because the prosecutor is an actual lawyer as opposed to someone who plays one on the internet.

Oh, a lawyer? Close the thread, he is legit. Everyone knows lawyers are unassailable. The highest moral standards. Cannot be influenced by a national team and supporters or previous incidents by previous members of that football team. Let's always appeal to authority.

Black people, be quiet. The lawyers continue to speak. Your lives don't matter. We all know you are just playing lawyers on the internet.

No one, protest. Ever. This country was founded on not protesting and allowing the people 'in the know' to make decisions.

DLC is the greatest. Please, lock all stages behind a pay wall. I asked a developer. He told me so.

 

[Jenov]

If I take a swing at you with a bat and barely miss does it not count as assault with a deadly weapon?
If I point a gun at you and pull the trigger but the round is a dud does it not count as attempted murder?
If I knee you and punch but miss your chin does it not count as battery?

Well, you're talking weapons vs fist. If she had one of the weapons in your example this would be an entirely different story all together. It gets subjective with fists and the resulting injuries though. Not all prosecutors will press charges if there a fist fight but no serious injuries between two parties. In this case, there was an injury to the woman's face, and the prosecutor did not see it as a justified response.

 

[Nicktals]

Assault is the threat. From the video she assaulted him first. Battery is the physical touch. He grabbed her first.

She would be charged with assault if the prosecution thinks her fist in the air warrants it. He would be charged with assault by grabbing her. If the prosecution thinks she was a not a reasonable threat.

Hell I don't know anymore. I tip my hat to everyone on both sides in this thread. Well done.

I going to go drink.

I think she touched him first...Just before she sets down her drink and raises her fist she pushes her arm against his chest/neck.

 

[RSTEIN]

What she did is a textbook definition of simple battery in FL. You can argue that he crossed the line of self-defense, but that does not erase her actions.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see anyone defending her actions? I think it's pretty clear that was she did was wrong and I think what he did was wrong. In my opinion--and I guess this is where the real issue lies--is that what he did was not self defense but something above and beyond.

 

[Nicktals]

Being a woman and a man has nothing to do with it. You're the one suggesting that his charges are only a result of "her having a vagina." Personally I think his charges are a result of his use of force not being proportional, and being seen as battery by the prosecutor. If it were a man vs man I wouldn't be surprised to see the same charges.

Care to give me any examples of cases where one man kicked another in the groin, attempted a punch, and then pressed charges after getting punched and suffering a black eye, a bruised cheek, and a small cut (while intoxicated in a bar)?

In fact, did the prosecutors do that, or did she have to press charges first? Because it'd be even more unheard of in a Man V. Man situation where the person who kicked the other in the groin, threw a punch, and then got punched would have the law going to bat for him

 

[Jenov]

Appeals to authority are really poor debate tactics, as it usually means there is no counter argument.

Unless you think that law enforcement is always right? Guess that would make things like Ferguson pretty cut-and-dried in your eyes.



Again, by the letter of the law (which was just quoted in this thread) injuries are not required. And individuals cannot pursue criminal charges.

What she did is a textbook definition of simple battery in FL. You can argue that he crossed the line of self-defense, but that does not erase her actions.

The white woman clearly broke the law, and the prosecutor declined to file charges.
The black man possibly broke the law (depending on if it was self-defense or not), and the prosecutor decided to file charges.

It's up to the discretion of the prosecutor then (and I don't know the status of the investigation, perhaps they might charge her). Also the guy could pursue his own charges or file civil suit.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

He was not forced to act that way.You keep saying that. How was he forced to punch the person in the face?

I believe he was. Surrounded by people grabbing at him with someone in front of him who is threatening to hit him after having already kneed him in the groin and allegedly thrown a racial slur.

He tried to restrain her, it failed and she threw a punch at him. Instinct took over and he was forced to react in a way that would quickly bring the situation to an end and ensure he's not on the receiving end of any more unprovoked attacks.

 

[Lynn616]

I think she touched him first...Just before she sets down her drink and raises her fist she pushes her arm against his chest/neck.

Ok. Maybe you are right. I am still going to get beer.

Love you guys. Fun stuff.

Be back in 20 minutes to fight some more. 😀

 

[ZoronMaro]

Let's sum up the thread so far
...

Thanks now I don't have to read all these trash opinions

Spoiler

from both sides

Spoiler

They're both terrible people and I want both of them punished

I'd never punch anyone, if that was me I would have grabbed the arm that tried to punch me and put her in an arm bar, then grab her body and suplex her.

Spoiler

/s if it wasn't obvious

 

[Dude Abides]

Appeals to authority are really poor debate tactics, as it usually means there is no counter argument.

Unless you think that law enforcement is always right? Guess that would make things like Ferguson pretty cut-and-dried in your eyes.

The PC affidavit is consistent with the video. He escalated routine jostling by by forcefully shoving her with his right hand as she was turning. She raises her hand (to defend herself according to the PC affidavit). He gets all grabby, she uses her knee to shove him (which magically turned into a vicious strike to the balls in this thread) hits him with her left, he hits her with his right. He started it with a shove, escalated it with grabbing, and finished it with a punch, so he gets charged. Simple as that.

Oh, a lawyer? Close the thread, he is legit. Everyone knows lawyers are unassailable. The highest moral standards. Cannot be influenced by a national team and supporters or previous incidents by previous members of that football team. Let's always appeal to authority.

Black people, be quiet. The lawyers continue to speak. Your lives don't matter. We all know you are just playing lawyers on the internet.

No one, protest. Ever. This country was founded on not protesting and allowing the people 'in the know' to make decisions.

DLC is the greatest. Please, lock all stages behind a pay wall. I asked a developer. He told me so.

Speak all you want, comrade. Viva la revolucion on behalf of oppressed college quarterbacks everywhere! But don't expect anyone to take you seriously if you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Let's sum up the thread so far

1. What the fuck he's a quarterback
2. That poor dainty girl she didn't do anything
3. Being called a racial slur and hit with a weak drunk punch doesn't count

4. If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a drunk chick at the bar

5. You never hit a women ever
6. Sexism
7. Sexism
8. Blah blah more sexism
9. He should have walked away
10. What a piece of shit
11. He dodges linebackers and shit but couldn't dodge drunk punches ?

12. He's a thug
13. Dehumanizing stare
14. I saw him sexually assault her

Did I miss anything ?

The groping accusation was particularly hilarious and depressing.

 

[Frog-fu]

No, the other person was not a threat whatsoever. I was wrong about the guy being white, so maybe I'm wrong about that too, but I don't see anything threatening enough to warrant a punch like that! (and the law agrees with me)

A person mouthing off with an arm on the other's chest with one hand and a closed fist in the other is not a threat? Please.

I've quoted Florida state law more than I care to repeat and it is clearly in favour of the QB. Florida state law provides the use of force will be considered self defence if the person reasonably believes it is necessary to prevent an imminent threat - which is what the woman was when she raised her fist threateningly.

She then committed battery by kneeing him, and again when she punched him. Throw in the racial slur and what you have is a walk in the park for the defence and quite possibly a nice big payout depending on how they play it with FSU if there is room for it in the bylaws, codes of conduct, etc. that the QB could use.

If the QB came from money, he'd probably have brought a lawsuit against them by now.

 

[Nicktals]

Being a woman and a man has nothing to do with it. You're the one suggesting that his charges are only a result of "her having a vagina." Personally I think his charges are a result of his use of force not being proportional, and being seen as battery by the prosecutor. If it were a man vs man I wouldn't be surprised to see the same charges.

And you're acting like the application of law can't have double standards. It can, and does. To deny this is sheer ignorance.

EDIT: And still waiting for those cases between two men where Man 1 man raises a fist, puts a knee/foot to the groin, takes a swing, and then gets punched by Man 2. Man 1 walks away with minor injuries, then presses charges and has the law on his side, despite swinging first.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

The arm was across his neck,

 

[Manoko]

If anybody decides to engage into a fight, no matter their gender, they shouldn't expect the other party to take punches without answering.

So many white knights in this thread, it's insane.
I agree he shouldn't have punched her so hard, of course, I'm against violence. But she should have seen it coming, trying to punch him in the first place.

Equal rights, equal lefts.

 

[Jenov]

And you're acting like the application of law can't have double standards. It can, and does. To deny this is sheer ignorance.

It can and does, but that doesn't mean it always does, nor that it happened in this case. Neither the football player nor his lawyer are claiming prosecutorial bias or misconduct here.

Edit: As for find a particular case. I have no interest in scrounging around for it, but I'm sure you can find cases of man vs man fights where one was charged for over use of force against the other. It's not a new concept, the entire idea of proportional force came about because people were doing too much damage to other people in fights when it was unwarranted.

 

[RSTEIN]

I believe he was. Surrounded by people grabbing at him with someone in front of him who is threatening to hit him after having already kneed him in the groin and allegedly thrown a racial slur.

I'm contesting your use of the word "forced." Nothing you said forces him to do anything.

- Surrounded by people grabbing at him.
From the video, nobody is immobilizing him, nothing to "force" a punch.

- Who is threatening to hit him after having already kneed him in the groin.
Ok, so the person hit him. Still not "forced" to punch back.

- allegedly thrown a racial slur.
Racism sucks, but doesn't "force" someone to punch.

 

[Nicktals]

It can and does, but that doesn't mean it always does, nor that it happened in this case. Neither the football player nor his lawyer are claiming prosecutorial bias or misconduct here.

And can you imagine why that might be? Might it be because we live in a society where punching men is fine in some situations, but punching women in the same situation is viewed as ghastly and unforgivable?

This guy still wants to have a career, or at least salvage a reputation. Going to court to fight for equality in a case where a woman got punched would be a very stupid idea on his (and his lawyer's) part.

 

[Lynn616]

The groping accusation was particularly hilarious and depressing.

I am sorry that you are depressed. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I posted what I thought and asked if you saw what I saw. You said no and I even went and found out I was wrong and then admitted it.

 

[EloquentM]

Society is going to be sexist in this regard until women are as big as men and have the same amount of muscle mass which will be never.

At least he tried to prevent it. Too bad that wasn't good enough.

Charging them both is the right way in my opinion. She fucked up and he fucked up.

Edit: I'm saying in regards to how current society sees man - woman altercations. If these were two men I'm sure it'd be a non issue since then it would be deemed self defense. Personally, I do not think he should be charged and have his career ruined. I think he acted wholly in self defense.

 

[Nicktals]

I am sorry that you are depressed. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I posted what I thought and asked if you saw what I saw. You said no and I even went and found out I was wrong and then admitted it.

Seriously, I respect what you did. That typically doesn't happen in conversations like this one.

 

[THRILLH0]

We've gone Zapruder level stupid in here.

Some of you seem super duper upset about the girl not being charged. From her side we're seeing a drunk girl getting muscled in on at the bar take a weak swing that grazed the dude's nose. If the video ended there everyone just moves on. There are no charges, no frame-by-frame analysis and no destroyed football career.

It's only because his response was so absurdly over the top that this is a story.

 

[Nicktals]

Edit: As for find a particular case. I have no interest in scrounging around for it, but I'm sure you can find cases of man vs man fights where one was charged for over use of force against the other. It's not a new concept, the entire idea of proportional force came about because people were doing too much damage to other people in fights when it was unwarranted.

Where the man who swung and kicked first suffered a black eye, bruised cheek, and small cut?

 

[Nicktals]

We've gone Zapruder level stupid in here.

Some of you seem super duper upset about the girl not being charged. From her side we're seeing a drunk girl getting muscled in on at the bar take a weak swing that grazed the dude's nose. If the video ended there everyone just moves on. There are no charges, no frame-by-frame analysis and no destroyed football career.

It's only because his response was so absurdly over the top that this is a story.

But if that had been a guy, there would be no case, no removal from the team.

 

[Jenov]

And can you imagine why that might be? Might it be because we live in a society where punching men is fine in some situations, but punching women in the same situation is viewed as ghastly and unforgivable?

This guy still wants to have a career, or at least salvage a reputation. Going to court to fight for equality in a case where a woman got punched would be a very stupid idea on his (and his lawyer's) part.

This is sounding an awful lot like MRA. He was put into a confrontation, and he chose to inflict serious injury onto the woman when no similar injuries were done to him. Now he'll have to stand up to a jury of his peers and be judged on whether it was right or wrong. I see nothing wrong with that outcome. Nor do I see this as some sort of societal mishap of men's rights being trampled upon by women scheming to get into fights with them.

 

[blurrygil]

Regardless of the circumstances of her actions or what she may have said to him, he should have never hit her like that...full stop.

Dude deserves everything he's gotten and more.

 

[EloquentM]

This is sounding an awful lot like MRA. He was put into a confrontation, and he chose to inflict serious injury onto the woman when no similar injuries were done to him. Now he'll have to stand up to a jury of his peers and be judged on whether it was right or wrong. I see nothing wrong with that outcome. Nor do I see this as some sort of societal mishap of men's rights being trampled upon by women scheming to get into fights with them.

So the question becomes: when is self defense okay? Does it have to be same gender self defense? Do I have to be visibly hurt for it to be self defense?

 

[Nicktals]

This is sounding an awful lot like MRA. He was put into a confrontation, and he chose to inflict serious injury onto the woman when no similar injuries were done to him. Now he'll have to stand up to a jury of his peers and be judged on whether it was right or wrong. I see nothing wrong with that outcome. Nor do I see this as some sort of societal mishap of men's rights being trampled upon by women scheming to get into fights with them.

I thought it being a man and a woman had nothing to do with it? Why do you keep trying to get me to feel bad for someone who started a fight while drunk at a bar and got punched, resulting in a black eye, bruised cheek, and small cut?


MRA? Fuck off. I won't assume women are weak and fragile, and I expect equal treatment under the law, and you're saying I'm fighting for men's rights? Bullshit.

 

[Kusagari]

We've gone Zapruder level stupid in here.

Some of you seem super duper upset about the girl not being charged. From her side we're seeing a drunk girl getting muscled in on at the bar take a weak swing that grazed the dude's nose. If the video ended there everyone just moves on. There are no charges, no frame-by-frame analysis and no destroyed football career.

It's only because his response was so absurdly over the top that this is a story.

I like how his response was over the top and not the girl who spins around ready to engage in fisticuffs suddenly.

 

[Icewear Vezzo]

Can't help but some people are only defending the girl because she's white and was struck by a black male, if I'm being completely honest.

Really, people are saying he should go to prison for this? Lmao the insanity.

 

[Jenov]

So the question becomes: when is self defense okay? Does it have to be same gender self defense? Do I have to be visibly hurt for it to be self defense?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense_(United_States)

In the U.S., the general rule is that "[a] person is privileged to use such force as reasonably appears necessary to defend him or herself against an apparent threat of unlawful and immediate violence from another."[1] In cases involving non-deadly force, this means that the person must reasonably believe that their use of force was necessary to prevent imminent, unlawful physical harm.


It's subjective. The prosecutor did not think his use of force was reasonable.

 

[EloquentM]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense_(United_States)

In the U.S., the general rule is that "[a] person is privileged to use such force as reasonably appears necessary to defend him or herself against an apparent threat of unlawful and immediate violence from another."[1] In cases involving non-deadly force, this means that the person must reasonably believe that their use of force was necessary to prevent imminent, unlawful physical harm.


It's subjective. The prosecutor did not think his use of force was reasonable.

probably not the punches but wasn't it said that she kneed him in the gonads as well? Idk subjectivity in these cases is going to be iffy at best no matter the verdict.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I can see why retaliation was necessary, but force should ideally be met with equal force, not excessive force.

 

[Nicktals]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense_(United_States)

In the U.S., the general rule is that "[a] person is privileged to use such force as reasonably appears necessary to defend him or herself against an apparent threat of unlawful and immediate violence from another."[1] In cases involving non-deadly force, this means that the person must reasonably believe that their use of force was necessary to prevent imminent, unlawful physical harm.


It's subjective. The prosecutor did not think his use of force was reasonable.

Bar fights happen all the time. Show me a case where a man who, while intoxicated in a bar, kicked another man in the groin and threw a punch, then got punched, and suffered a black eye, bruised cheek, and small cut had the law behind him, won the case, or even had a case heard. It's ridiculous.

 

[THRILLH0]

But if that had been a guy, there would be no case, no removal from the team.

That's because most rational people recognise the difference between a man hitting another man and a man hitting a woman.

If Ray Rice hit a man he wouldn't be out of the league. Do you want to argue his case?

Whinge about double standards all you want but it's a pretty universally accepted guiding principle.