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[BigDes]

You assume that Cops will shoot me because I am black. I do not.

I have been stopped by cops literally for walking out side. I never had an issue, nor was there ever a problem. I was stopped in different states and counties. Same result. I was allowed to leave. No issue whatsover.

I am not saying I should pretend that a Cop will never shoot me, I am simply not assuming that he will shoot me.

I on the other hand have never been stopped by a policeman.

I wonder why that is?

 

[Dufase19089]

I don't see how you fail to understand that economic standing and race are not two exclusive factors. One influences the other.

How can you look at that and not understand that it's the cumulative effect of slavery which led to Jim Crow laws, which led to separate but equal, which led to mass incarceration and the war on drugs, all of which were/are efforts specifically designed to undermine black advancement. The ONLY difference today being that this effort has to pretend to have no basis in race thanks to Nixon's Southern strategy, as detailed here by Lee Atwater in 1981:

Are you saying that Race influences Economics, or Economics Influences Race.

Either way that would have to be the same across the board and its not.

Are you saying black people make less more, or black people have less money because they are black.

You have to factor in, education, location, what jobs are being sought, and the crime statistics.

 

[Dufase19089]

I on the other hand have never been stopped by a policeman.

I wonder why that is?

Probably because you are a Law abiding citizen?

I should probably clarify that I was not stopped because I was black, but because I was outside during a time most people where typically inside. When I was with a group of white friends, we were all stopped. When I was with asians, we were all stopped, When I was alone, i was stopped.

Never because of race, but the location and laws of that area.

 

[Messofanego]

anyways, has this been posted?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWOuCfdJYMM

"Screaming white racists" good luck netting these liberals now into the cause.

Can someone fill me in on why BLM seems to have such a beef with Sanders?

Here is the press release.

PRESS RELEASE: Black Lives Matter Seattle ‪#‎BowDownBernie‬ Action
MEDIA CONTACTS: Marissa Johnson (360) 840-6234 blacklivesmatterseattle@gmail.com
Black Lives Matter Seattle organizers and supporters take over Bernie Sanders’ rally at Westlake on Saturday, August 8, 2015.
Today BLM Seattle, with the support of other Black organizers and non-Black allies and accomplices, held Bernie Sanders publicly accountable for his lack of support for the Black Lives Matter movement and his blatantly silencing response to the ‪#‎SayHerName‬ ‪#‎IfIDieInPoliceCustody‬ action that took place at Netroots this year.
Bernie’s arrival in Seattle is largely significant in the context of the state of emergency Black lives are in locally as well as across America. The Seattle Police Department has been under federal consent decree for the last three years and has been continually plagued by use-of-force violations and racist scandals amongst their rank and file. Seattle Mayor Ed Murray has refused to push any reform measures for police accountability, not even the numerous recommendations of his self-appointed Community Police Commission. The Seattle School District suspends Black students at a rate six times higher than their white counterparts, feeding Black children into the school-to-prison pipeline. King County has fought hard to push through a plan to build a $210 million new youth jail to imprison these children, amid intense community criticism and dissent. The Central District, a historically Black neighborhood in Seattle, has undergone rapid gentrification over the past few decades, with Black people being displaced from the only neighborhood that we could legally live in until just years ago. While white men profit off of the legalization of marijuana, our prisons are still filled with Black people who are over-incarcerated for drug offenses.
This city is filled with white progressives, which is why Bernie Sanders’ camp was obviously expecting a friendly and consenting audience for today’s campaign visit. The problem with Sanders’, and with white Seattle progressives in general, is that they are utterly and totally useless (when not outright harmful) in terms of the fight for Black lives. While we are drowning in their liberal rhetoric, we have yet to see them support Black grassroots movements or take on any measure of risk and responsibility for ending the tyranny of white supremacy in our country and in our city. This willful passivity while claiming solidarity with the ‪#‎BlackLivesMatter‬ movement in an effort to be relevant is over. White progressive Seattle and Bernie Sanders cannot call themselves liberals while they participate in the racist system that claims Black lives. Bernie Sanders will not continue to call himself a man of the people, while ignoring the plight of Black people. Presidential candidates will not win Black votes without putting out an explicit criminal justice reform package. As was said at the Netroots action, presidential candidates should expect to be shut down and confronted every step along the way of this presidential campaign. Black people are in a state of emergency. Lines have been drawn in the sand. You are either fighting continuously and measurably to protect Black life in America, or you are a part of the white supremacist system that we will tear down in the liberation of our people.
On this, nearly the one year anniversary of the ruthless murder of Mike Brown, we honor Black lives lost by doing the unthinkable, the unapologetic, and the unrespectable. Out of radical love for our Black brothers and sisters, we put our lives and our bodies on the line to testify to their persecution and resilience. We join together in Black love to #SayHerName and declare that #BlackLivesMatter, understanding that our love will disrupt the complicity and corruption of our anti-Black society; GOP, Democrat, and otherwise.
There is no business as usual while Black lives are lost. We will ensure this by any means necessary.
With the strength of our ancestors and for the future of our children,
Black Lives Matter Seattle Co-Founders
Marissa Johnson and Mara Willaford
#BowDownBernie
#SayHerName
#IfIDieInPoliceCustody
‪#‎NotOneMoreDeportation‬
‪#‎FreePalestine‬
‪#‎MikeBrown‬
#BlackLivesMatter

Sanders (along with O'Malley) got interrupted by BLM protesters at Netroots Nation, a progressive political convention put on by the Daily Kos. This happened for no other reason than it was a convenient venue for BLM to take hold of a platform; it's a grassroots-y low budget affair where candidates can hobnob with their online fundraising base, and security is presumably minimal. Sanders supporters took to social media to express their displeasure, and to point out that this is a somewhat self-defeating thing to do. BLM champions on social media then argued that the largely white Sanders supporter base was taking black support for granted. It became quite a kerfuffle, and, as arguments on social media do, it's gone on for weeks and become increasingly virulent.

Because O'Malley has no supporters, no one took to social media in his name after NN, and he's been left out of the entire thing, which is presumably quite bittersweet for him.

She wanted a fight, she got one back. This is liberal infighting though (you're either with us or against us), doesn't seem to be going anywhere for positive progress.

Have prominent BLM members spoken up about this and what their take on it all is? Think it's about time the movement got a unified message to avoid these minor kerfuffles and instil civil discussion.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

I really hope the BLM agitators eventually challenge all the democratic candidates leading up to the primaries.

These shooting (and the lack of value for the lives of black people they represent) should be part of the debates.

Part of me hopes Obama makes an executive order prior to leaving office that demands all officers have body cameras on them when they are on duty and that all police precincts report their shootings to some sort of federal oversight. However I doubt it, he's been passive on this particular issue since Henry Louis Gates got arrested for trying to get into his own house in 2009.

A federal response wont immediately stop the problem but at least it would be an admittance by the government that there is in fact a problem that needs to be stopped to begin with on a large scale level. I am hoping Hillary or Sanders commit on their campaign to facing this issue if they are elected.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

Are you saying that Race influences Economics, or Economics Influences Race.

Either way that would have to be the same across the board and its not.

Are you saying black people make less more, or black people have less money because they are black.

You have to factor in, education, location, what jobs are being sought, and the crime statistics.

I think you should read some books on the topic, because you're missing the very basic premise that race plays a huge role in all the factors you listed. I would start with Michelle Alexanders' "The New Jim Crow".

Here's a video that serves as a decent introduction to the broader themes of the book:
click

 

[UltimaPooh]

he's not getting the black vote unless he wins the nomination. he could pay out reparations and hillary would still get 90% of the black vote. he is considered a racist old man who wants you off his lawn.

anyways, has this been posted?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWOuCfdJYMM

Thanks for posting. I did t get to see their speech yet.

They actually had some decent points tho calling everyone who.is listening to you raciat doesn't help.

Lol at the British lady getting THAT upset at being called a racist.

Lol Bernie playing it cool.

 

[Jzero]

They're making themselves look so dumb by screaming at the microphone.

 

[Suikoguy]

Have prominent BLM members spoken up about this and what their take on it all is? Think it's about time the movement got a unified message to avoid these minor kerfuffles and instil civil discussion.

It's the core problem with decentralized grassroots type movements; unless there is a key thing they can push, like legalizing marijuana, gay marriage, minimum wage, messaging gets very muddy, very easily.

Besides being easily misunderstood, which, face it, no matter what slogan they went with it would have been misunderstood by people who don't give a shit. The slogan "Black Lives Matter" really only points to a problem, without offering any solutions.

They could, and this is only a guess on my part, start a free membership website for gathering intel and ideas for what the movement wants. Then they can start to organize messaging better, schedule events that can be better advertised and organized, and above all get above people who are taking the message and running with it, without having a clue how to do it.

 

[UltimaPooh]

They could, and this is only a guess on my part, start a free membership website for gathering intel and ideas for what the movement wants. Then they can start to organize messaging better, schedule events that can be better advertised and organized, and above all get above people who are taking the message and running with it, without having a clue how to do it.

You mean like this?

www.blacklivesmatter.com

 

[Dufase19089]

I think you should read some books on the topic, because you're missing the very basic premise that race plays a huge role in all the factors you listed. I would start with Michelle Alexanders' "The New Jim Crow".

Here's a video that serves as a decent introduction to the broader themes of the book:
click

No, your actions play a huge role in those factors. If you commit a crime you go to jail. If those consequences are harsh, Then you have to live with that.

Nearly all of my cousins that are my age are either in prison, or have gone to prison.

Its not because they are black, Its not because the police target them, Its because they made the choice to break the law and now they face the consequences. My Aunts and Uncles literally give their kids chance after chance after chance to come clean and start anew. But they never do.

If you want to say that not all blacks are criminals and they should not be judged because of a stereotype that is fair. But then you cannot judge other people based on stereotypes as well.

Every single twitter hashtag has come about because some black person did something that resulted in devastating consequences.

I am not saying that police are Justified for shootings, I am not saying they are guilty either.

What I am saying is that in EVERY situation, The black person made a choice to act a certain way, and they made the wrong choice.

IF you want to say that blacks are at a disadvantage when they interact with cops, I would say you are right, because whites, mexicans, asians,...etc are also at a disadvantage, because Cops have authority.

Now how cops handle that authority depends on the situation. But instead of worrying about how everyone else is gonna act, I say we should focus on how WE act.

If someone is racist and mistreating you, that person is an arsehole and should be dealt with. However you need to understand who you are dealing with and act accordingly.

I have been in situations where the Cops called back up because my white friend was being stupid, and I have been in situations where the Cops had a friendly chat with me, because I was not being unruly.

And Back to the videos point, I dont care if 99% of the black population is in prison, UNLESS they are jailed illegally (which isnt happening like it was 50 years ago). If a black person commits a crime, then arrest that person. If you want to say the punishment is unreasonable. That is a fair assertion, I have seen too many people related to me get unfair punishments.

Not because of their skin color however. It was the crime itself.

 

[Suikoguy]

You mean like this?

www.blacklivesmatter.com

Well, the communication is obviously not happening, or they don't have a leader that is capable of messaging.

Looking at their web page demands, it's a mess, it's un-focused, and it has more demands of things that are end goals, rather than solutions. It's difficult to get traction when you are demanding platitudes rather than actual actions.

Some of them also don't make any sense, like "We demand the release of all U.S. political prisoners."

Edit: I'm out for the evening, I do hope the movement can find some direction.

 

[Mental Atrophy]

I should probably clarify that I was not stopped because I was black, but because I was outside during a time most people where typically inside.

I could see this being true. I went my whole life without any engagement with the police ever, but I started riding my bike home from work at 1am in January and since then I've been stopped about a dozen times. It's weird, and on a few occasions once the officer had me stopped she was like, "Oh, it's you again," and then let me go without even checking ID.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Well, the communication is obviously not happening, or they don't have a leader that is capable of messaging.

I don't think a movement needs a particular leader but a strucutre and a leadership are important.

Looking at their web page demands, it's a mess, it's un-focused, and it has more demands of things that are end goals, rather than solutions. It's difficult to get traction when you are demanding platitudes rather than actual actions.

Well they are demands, its what they want which I think most of is reasonable...

Some of them also don't make any sense, like "We demand the release of all U.S. political prisoners."

I don't see that anywhere on the demand page.

 

[Suikoguy]

I don't see that anywhere on the demand page.

http://blacklivesmatter.com/state-of-the-black-union/

Second from the bottom of the bulletpoint list.

 

[UltimaPooh]

http://blacklivesmatter.com/state-of-the-black-union/

Second from the bottom of the bulletpoint list.

Oh. Thanks.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

No, your actions play a huge role in those factors. If you commit a crime you go to jail. If those consequences are harsh, Then you have to live with that.

Nearly all of my cousins that are my age are either in prison, or have gone to prison.

Its not because they are black, Its not because the police target them, Its because they made the choice to break the law and now they face the consequences. My Aunts and Uncles literally give their kids chance after chance after chance to come clean and start anew. But they never do.

If you want to say that not all blacks are criminals and they should not be judged because of a stereotype that is fair. But then you cannot judge other people based on stereotypes as well.

Every single twitter hashtag has come about because some black person did something that resulted in devastating consequences.

I am not saying that police are Justified for shootings, I am not saying they are guilty either.

What I am saying is that in EVERY situation, The black person made a choice to act a certain way, and they made the wrong choice.

IF you want to say that blacks are at a disadvantage when they interact with cops, I would say you are right, because whites, mexicans, asians,...etc are also at a disadvantage, because Cops have authority.

Now how cops handle that authority depends on the situation. But instead of worrying about how everyone else is gonna act, I say we should focus on how WE act.

If someone is racist and mistreating you, that person is an arsehole and should be dealt with. However you need to understand who you are dealing with and act accordingly.

I have been in situations where the Cops called back up because my white friend was being stupid, and I have been in situations where the Cops had a friendly chat with me, because I was not being unruly.

And Back to the videos point, I dont care if 99% of the black population is in prison, UNLESS they are jailed illegally (which isnt happening like it was 50 years ago). If a black person commits a crime, then arrest that person. If you want to say the punishment is unreasonable. That is a fair assertion, I have seen too many people related to me get unfair punishments.

Not because of their skin color however. It was the crime itself.

Ok, if you're willing to humor me, I'm going to ask a few questions one at a time and I'd just like you to give the most concise answer you can because at the moment I feel like we're debating in circles.


Why is a larger percentage of the black population (five times larger, not a trivial difference) incarcerated than the white population, in your opinion?



Source:

 

[YoungHav]

he's not getting the black vote unless he wins the nomination. he could pay out reparations and hillary would still get 90% of the black vote. he is considered a racist old man who wants you off his lawn.

anyways, has this been posted?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWOuCfdJYMM

the sister to the right.... shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeet. plane.jpg

Anyway I don't see the point in Hall and Nash'ing Bernie's events. Why not just have an off-camera sitdown with the man? If these rogue BLM groups don't troll Hillary events then I'll continue to assume she's behind these stunts.

 

[Dufase19089]

I could see this being true. I went my whole life without any engagement with the police ever, but I started riding my bike home from work at 1am in January and since then I've been stopped about a dozen times. It's weird, and on a few occasions once the officer had me stopped she was like, "Oh, it's you again," and then let me go without even checking ID.

Pretty much. I didnt even need to give them My ID. I would just say, My house is over yonder and I was heading there now.

Granted it wasnt raining and I didnt have any Skittles or Arizona ice tea, so I didnt get racially profile



#Sarcasm

 

[jakonovski]

Welp, some things never change. Such as the left scuttling their chances through infighting. The status quo extends their gratitude.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

Welp, some things never change. Such as the left scuttling their chances through infighting. The status quo extends their gratitude.

I don't deny that trend, but this time around the right has a larger issue with infighting. Ted Cruz v Mitch McConnell, Trump v everybody, Rand Paul's existence, etc. It's a messy bunch at the moment.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

Welp, some things never change. Such as the left scuttling their chances through infighting. The status quo extends their gratitude.

This is infighting? idk if they changed it recently but the head party honchos are only allowing 6 debates to make it a cake walk for Hillary to get the nomination. Hillary is still a lock for the nomination.

This is democracy in America when a group doesn't have a reliable lobbyist network to call upon.

Candidates have to make promises to constituents to get votes and you have a sector of constituents making it known publicly what they want to hear from the potential candidates instead of them paying 5000 a plate at a fundraiser to say it in small talk.

 

[UltimaPooh]

This is infighting? idk if they changed it recently but the head party honchos are only allowing 6 debates to make it a cake walk for Hillary to get the nomination. Hillary is still a lock for the nomination.

Psh. 6 debates. I say make it two.

#feelthebern

 

[Dufase19089]

Ok, if you're willing to humor me, I'm going to ask a few questions one at a time and I'd just like you to give the most concise answer you can because at the moment I feel like we're debating in circles.


Why is a larger percentage of the black population (five times larger, not a trivial difference) incarcerated than the white population, in your opinion?



Source:

Honestly I think education has do to do with to. In my experience, minorities are not as good at getting away with a crime and are far easier to catch than other ethnic groups.

Lets take something minor like smoking weed, In my experience the white kids I know that do drugs are more cautious about getting caught and will do drugs in different ways and different areas so that they will not got caught. Even at my school they would devise a way to do whatever and if something went wrong they would have a way to escape attention or find ways to not fall suspect.

My black friends on the other hand were more risky, they would were not as smart and would literally do drugs out in the open. If someone were to come by, their first instinct is to run away thus drawing attention to themselves. They were more likely to get caught and more likely to be confrontational with authority. They would do the same routine over and over, and not change anything up.

They would also gather in large groups, talk loudly and allow people who are well known to have a negative reputation join their circles. By allowing certain people to join, even if they didnt do anything, they would raise suspicion by association. They would allow themselves to be seen because they had they stereotypical "F*ck the Police" mentality (until the police actually showed up)


Now that's just my experience. For a more broad scope of things, I will say its boils down to economics. You look at low income areas and the crime rates among the different races are much closer. But even then the choices various minority's make are quite different.

"People resort to crime only if they determine that potential benefits outweigh the cost or consequences of committing that. Therefore, people living in poverty are more likely to commit burglary, larceny or theft."

Your education and cultural values can change how someone lives while in poverty. In black communities there is not a high value in education or the betterment of ones self, therefore committing a crime has a higher benefit than trying to go to get a job.

Where as in a Jewish community, there is high value in getting an education and a high paying job, that is why there is a low population of jews in prison.




At this point my mind is turning to mush considering its nearly 6 Am.

I know you wanted a concise answer, but such a loaded question cannot be answered shortly.

But to make it short. Due to economic disparity, Black people assume there is more reward in committing crimes than other minorities.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

Psh. 6 debates. I say make it two.

#feelthebern

If the party head honchos thought they could get away with it they would do that in a second. Honestly I'm surprised Bernie hasn't used this to jump on the issue and try to improve his draw to black voters..... but deep down I think Bernie doesn't want to split the party because he can see the writing on the wall for what it is too.

 

[UltimaPooh]

If the party head honchos thought they could get away with it they would do that in a second. Honestly I'm surprised Bernie hasn't used this to jump on the issue and try to improve his draw to black voters..... but deep down I think Bernie doesn't want to split the party because he can see the writing on the wall for what it is too.

I'm actually being somewhat serious. The fight for Bernie isn't over and if he is seeing the writing on the wall I hope not. He's one badass mother fucker. We just need a Will.i.am song made about him for more momentum.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

Honestly I think education has do to do with to. In my experience, minorities are not as good at getting away with a crime and are far easier to catch than other ethnic groups.

Lets take something minor like smoking weed, In my experience the white kids I know that do drugs are more cautious about getting caught and will do drugs in different ways and different areas so that they will not got caught. Even at my school they would devise a way to do whatever and if something went wrong they would have a way to escape attention or find ways to not fall suspect.

My black friends on the other hand were more risky, they would were not as smart and would literally do drugs out in the open. If someone were to come by, their first instinct is to run away thus drawing attention to themselves. They were more likely to get caught and more likely to be confrontational with authority. They would do the same routine over and over, and not change anything up.

They would also gather in large groups, talk loudly and allow people who are well known to have a negative reputation join their circles. By allowing certain people to join, even if they didnt do anything, they would raise suspicion by association. They would allow themselves to be seen because they had they stereotypical "F*ck the Police" mentality (until the police actually showed up)


Now that's just my experience. For a more broad scope of things, I will say its boils down to economics. You look at low income areas and the crime rates among the different races are much closer. But even then the choices various minority's make are quite different.

"People resort to crime only if they determine that potential benefits outweigh the cost or consequences of committing that. Therefore, people living in poverty are more likely to commit burglary, larceny or theft."

Your education and cultural values can change how someone lives while in poverty. In black communities there is not a high value in education or the betterment of ones self, therefore committing a crime has a higher benefit than trying to go to get a job.

Where as in a Jewish community, there is high value in getting an education and a high paying job, that is why there is a low population of jews in prison.




At this point my mind is turning to mush considering its nearly 6 Am.

I know you wanted a concise answer, but such a loaded question cannot be answered shortly.

But to make it short. Due to economic disparity, Black people assume there is more reward in committing crimes than other minorities.

Please just stop talking man..... its to the point if you didn't self identify as black I would say your racist against black people

I'm actually being somewhat serious. The fight for Bernie isn't over and if he is seeing the writing on the wall I hope not. He's one badass mother fucker. We just need a Will.i.am song made about him for more momentum.

I would be ok with that but like I said the party honchos learned from 2008. Bernie could have a chance if they allowed him more exposure in debates (where Obama initially shined) but they're going to limit that on purpose.

 

[jakonovski]

This is infighting? idk if they changed it recently but the head party honchos are only allowing 6 debates to make it a cake walk for Hillary to get the nomination. Hillary is still a lock for the nomination.

This is democracy in America when a group doesn't have a reliable lobbyist network to call upon.

Candidates have to make promises to constituents to get votes and you have a sector of constituents making it known publicly what they want to hear from the potential candidates instead of them paying 5000 a plate at a fundraiser to say it in small talk.

You Americans seem to have literally one potential candidate that has the desire to change anything, so there is really no options in who to support and who to protest if you want real world results. It's like social media has corrupted people into thinking that "winning" an argument is all that matters.

Bernie will lose the argument against BLM and the system will continue destroying lives without anyone in power willing to even try changing it. Victory for the People's Front of Judea!

 

[BigDes]

You Americans seem to have literally one potential candidate that has the desire to change anything, so that really changes things. It's like social media has corrupted people into thinking that "winning" an argument is all that matters.

Bernie will lose the argument against BLM and the system will continue destroying lives without anyone in power willing to even try changing it. Victory for the People's Front of Judea!

Fuck off

Judean People's Front forever

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

At this point my mind is turning to mush considering its nearly 6 Am.

I know you wanted a concise answer, but such a loaded question cannot be answered shortly.

But to make it short. Due to economic disparity, Black people assume there is more reward in committing crimes than other minorities.

(I read your whole answer, I'm only quoting the end to keep the page from bloating)


Ok, so we've established that, by and large, a 5x higher percentage of black people are incarcerated than white people due to economic disparity. While I would argue that other factors exist, I agree that economics is a large contributor.


Next question: why do you believe this economic disparity exists?

 

[Zeus Molecules]

You Americans seem to have literally one potential candidate that has the desire to change anything, so there is really no options in who to support and who to protest if you want real world results. It's like social media has corrupted people into thinking that "winning" an argument is all that matters.

Bernie will lose the argument against BLM and the system will continue destroying lives without anyone in power willing to even try changing it. Victory for the People's Front of Judea!

Honestly Clinton isn't that bad of a Democrat and I have faith in her ability to lead the nation. I'm a liberal first but I learned during the Bush years effective leadership is a virtue in its own right because regardless of his party Bush largest flaw was he was ineffectual. Its one of the reasons I've never been too hard on Obama even when he failed to fulfill his more liberal campaign promises. So while I like Bernie's politics more than I like Hillary's I am also pretty certain she would be elected and lead well (and on a side note take much joy is screwing over the republicans for all the shit they personally put her through)

 

[DECK'ARD]

I think Sanders just added a "Racial Justice" page to the "issues" section of his website:

https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice/

Mentions BLM in particular:

He launched that at the SCLC speech a couple of weeks ago:

https://berniesanders.com/press-release/sanders-addresses-southern-christian-leadership-conference/

He's hasn't been silent on the issues, the problem is without a PR machine behind him and interest from the media the message isn't getting heard. What he's been saying and what he believes needs changing is out there though.

Nearly everything in the BLM Seattle press-release he'd already been addressing, yet they seem completely unaware of that. They're shouting someone down for what they think he hasn't been saying rather than listening to what he has.

Hopefully communication improves so they can see they are on the same side and working towards a common goal.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

Honestly Clinton isn't that bad of a Democrat and I have faith in her ability to lead the nation. I'm a liberal first but I learned during the Bush years effective leadership is a virtue in its own right. So while I like Bernies politics more than I like Hillary's I am also pretty certain she would be elected and lead well (and on a side note take much joy is screwing over the republicans for all the shit they personally put her through)

I do think we tend to focus too much on policy and disregard general leadership abilities. My good friend made the point to me a while back that while Clinton's not an ideal candidate ideologically, she is very capable when it comes to getting people to work with her (or maybe more accurately, for her). While Obama's done a pretty good job considering his opposition, he does tend to take the position that certain ideas aren't worth entertaining. While you or I may agree with that, in politics it's important to convince people you value their input if you want them to work with you. In that regard, I think Hillary would have an easier time courting bipartisan support.

Although, to be clear, much of the GOP are just racist loons. No amount of tactful politicking will fix that.

 

[Dufase19089]

(I read your whole answer, I'm only quoting the end to keep the page from bloating)


Ok, so we've established that, by and large, a 5x higher percentage of black people are incarcerated than white people due to economic disparity. While I would argue that other factors exist, I agree that economics is a large contributor.


Next question: why do you believe this economic disparity exists?

Oh I am not saying there are not other factors.

Economic disparity initially existed due to Racism. That is undeniable. However that was an issue decades ago. I would say as of the generation born during the 50's and during the MLK days, that generation was the last generation that experienced true systemic racism. (Technically there was many places that held on to racism despite federal law for many years, but lets assume when the Civil Rights acts were passed systemic racism no longer existed)

I would say in the modern era it ultimately comes back to lack of value in education and the attempt to better ones self. My parents generation was the first to go to college. Yet only a few of my relatives in the following generation went to school. In fact my older relatives only just now realized the impotence of going to school, so they are now 40+ attending college for the first time which is awesome. Unfortunately their children and grandchildren do not care for school nor do they care about living a better life. Which is why a majority of my cousins have seen jail time. There is no value of getting out of poverty, there is not strive to do better than before. Its taken my older cousins 40 years for them to learn that Education matters, and they are starting to take the steps their parents did back when Racism was still a thing.

You cant get a job when you dont apply, and you wont get a job if you spend 10 years in prison for something stupid. You cant go to school when you have 3 kids from there different partners. (On that note my relatives literally have as many kids as possible to get that government money, and then dont give a crap when the oldest ones go to jail, because "thats just one less mouth to feed'

TLR. Initially Racism was a cause of economic disparity, but as our nation progressed, many in the black community refused to move forward with everyone else, and are now stuck in a loop where they need to have skills to pay the bills, but do not take responsibility for their actions.

Its kinda like, 150 years ago black were not allowed to learn how to read, because that would mean they would know how to improve themselves. Now days blacks choose not to get educated because that would mean they would have to take responsibility to improve themselves.

I understand that is NOT always the case, but that has been my experience and my families experience.

 

[talisayNon]

Yes All lives matter!

You should have to prove your worth as a human being, NOT as a black person.
.

just stop man. stop.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

He launched that at the SCLC speech a couple of weeks ago:

https://berniesanders.com/press-release/sanders-addresses-southern-christian-leadership-conference/

He's hasn't been silent on the issues, the problem is without a PR machine behind him and interest from the media the message isn't getting heard. What he's been saying and what he believes needs changing is out there though.

Nearly everything in the BLM Seattle press-release he'd already been addressing, yet they seem completely unaware of that. They're shouting someone down for what they think he hasn't been saying rather than listening to what he has.

Hopefully communication improves so they can see they are on the same side and working towards a common goal.

Just skimmed it and its nice but I would prefer if he said that Body Cameras were required by the Federal Government instead of Provided by the federal government. Hillary said it should be the norm everywhere and made it sound like she would push for it to be mandatory. Thats two very different approaches as of right now.

 

[not psycho]

He launched that at the SCLC speech a couple of weeks ago:

You sure?

https://web.archive.org/web/20150805120025/https://berniesanders.com/issues/

It wasn't there on August 5. I just noticed it appear today. The internet archive also has no record of the racial justice page existing before today.

I'm not saying it is all brand new material for him. Just that it wasn't listed as one of his issues before, and he didn't have the page for it.

Just skimmed it and its nice but I would prefer if he said that Body Cameras were required by the Federal Government instead of Provided by the federal government. Hillary said it should be the norm everywhere and made it sound like she would push for it to be mandatory. Thats two very different approaches as of right now.

He does say that.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice/

We need to federally fund and require body cameras for law enforcement officers to make it easier to hold them accountable.

 

[Cabbagehead]

I see that people are falling right back into candidate worshiping. Will you guys ever learn? (Every election year the same old rodeo)

Nothing going to change with one person. The system is far to corrupt and the prison lobbyist own the market and many others like them.

Rather its Hillary or Bernie. You are wasting you're time.

 

[UltimaPooh]

I see that people are falling right back to candidate worshiping. Will you guys ever learn.

Nothing going to change with one person. The system is far to corrupt and the prison lobbyist own the market and many others like them.

Rather its Hillary or Bernie. You are wasting you're time.

Thanks for the edgy commentary!

 

[Zeus Molecules]

I see that people are falling right back to candidate worshiping. Will you guys ever learn.

Nothing going to change with one person. The system is far to corrupt and the prison lobbyist own the market and many others like them.

Rather its Hillary or Bernie. You are wasting you're time.

Like Idk Gay Marriage.... Hell this entire countries official approach to homosexual rights is starkly different than it was before Obama.

 

[jakonovski]

You gotta start somewhere, and as an euro leftist it is obvious to me that settling for Hillary is outright capitulation.

 

[Dufase19089]

just stop man. stop.

Are you saying that All Lives Dont Matter?

Because they do.

 

[Cabbagehead]

Like Idk Gay Marriage.... Hell this entire countries official approach to homosexual rights is starkly different than it was before Obama.

Gay Marriage was going to be approved in the last ten years regardless of rather it was Obama or not. Given how fast he changed his record, i'd say with how quickly the new generation rallied to push that through, no matter what by hook or by crook.


But this issue is a different thing all together. The landscape in the USA is just so fucked up when you hit the ground and get away from the lights. Beyond the few bright spots.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

He does say that.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice/

I was going off the press release but good. Now I just need him to say it in a speech as a campaign promise and he's all good with me as a candidate.

Honestly that would be the best result from all of this both Hillary and Bernie on camera promising to see to make body cameras become a requirement on a national level.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

Gay Marriage was going to be approved in the last ten years regardless of rather it was Obama or not. Given how fast he changed his record, i'd say with how quickly the new generation rallied to push that through, no matter what by hook or by crook.

If America had a republican president they would of ignored the citizens and changed the narrative. That's what Bush did whenever something he didn't like was being demanded..... All of a sudden the terrorist warning scale would go orange. Anyhow lets not act like it was a risk for Obama and democrats in general. There are a lot of places where being gay is still considered wrong in America and those people vote just like everyone else.

 

[lednerg]

Are you saying that All Lives Dont Matter?

Because they do.

When you read "Black Lives Matter," add a "too" behind it. That's the point of the statement. Saying "All Lives Matter" in response is just being dismissive.

 

[Cabbagehead]

If America had a republican president they would of ignored the citizens and changed the narrative. That's what Bush did whenever something he didn't like was being demanded..... All of a sudden the terrorist warning scale would go orange. Anyhow lets not act like it was a risk for Obama and democrats in general. There are a lot of places where being gay is still considered wrong in America and those people vote just like everyone else.

Bush wouldn't stand a chance in this current era. I believe...his shit would be everywhere.

 

[linsivvi]

I was going off the press release but good. Now I just need him to say it in a speech as a campaign promise and he's all good with me as a candidate.

Honestly that would be the best result from all of this both Hillary and Bernie on camera promising to see to make body cameras become a requirement on a national level.

Too many African-Americans today, especially in our urban centers, are simultaneously having to deal with the crisis of racial injustice while coping with the effects of poverty and economic deprivation, such as drugs, crime, and despair.

Across the nation, too many African-Americans and other minorities find themselves subjected to a system that treats citizens who have not committed crimes like criminals. A growing number of communities do not trust the police and the police have become disconnected from the communities they are sworn to protect.

We must reform our criminal justice system. Black lives do matter. And we must value black lives.

We must move away from the militarization of police forces. We must invest in community policing. We need a federal initiative to completely redo how we train police officers in this country and give them body cameras.

It is an obscenity that we stigmatize so many young Americans with a criminal record for smoking marijuana, but not one major Wall Street executive has been prosecuted for causing the near collapse of our entire economy. This must change.

It is morally repugnant and a national tragedy that we have privatized prisons all over America. In my view, corporations should not be allowed to make a profit by building more jails and keeping more Americans behind bars. We have got to end the private-for-profit prison racket in America!

The measure of success for law enforcement should not be how many people get locked up. We need to invest in drug courts and medical and mental health interventions for people with substance abuse problems, so that people struggling with addiction do not end up in prison, they end up in treatment.

For people who have committed crimes that have landed them in jail, there needs to be a path back from prison. The federal system of parole needs to be reinstated. We need real education and real skills training for the incarcerated.

We must end the over incarceration of non-violent young Americans who do not pose a serious threat to our society. It is an international embarrassment that we have more people locked up in jail than any other country on earth – more than even the Communist totalitarian state of China. That has got to end. Instead of spending money on jails and incarceration, we should be investing in jobs and education!

That was last month. Most of the criticisms on Bernie are pretty much ridiculous at this point. I consider it bullying.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

TLR. Initially Racism was a cause of economic disparity, but as our nation progressed, many in the black community refused to move forward with everyone else, and are now stuck in a loop where they need to have skills to pay the bills, but do not take responsibility for their actions.

Its kinda like, 150 years ago black were not allowed to learn how to read, because that would mean they would know how to improve themselves. Now days blacks choose not to get educated because that would mean they would have to take responsibility to improve themselves.

I understand that is NOT always the case, but that has been my experience and my families experience.

Ok, now I'm going to run with your own reasoning here and I just want to know if you have any objection to this being a logical conclusion:


Economic disparity existed initially due to racism.

That disparity led to higher crime rates among black people, who were largely impoverished

Higher crime meant more people spent time in prison

More time spent in prison meant more children raised by single parents or foster homes

That leads to kids raised with less guidance and nurturing, on average, than white counterparts

This, combined with growing up in poverty where money, quality education, and good role models are scarce leads to people resorting to crime, as their parents did

Because these areas become known as hotbeds of crime, they are also policed more heavily

Because they are policed more heavily and in poverty, this continues the high incarceration rates which makes it harder to get a job or housing upon release, therefore encouraging repeated offenses

This cycle has repeated generation after generation all the way to today, because we've established that economic disparity will encourage criminal behavior and that economic disparity still exists

Therefore, it is harder to succeed today, on average, as a black person than a white person thanks to the rollover effect of racism long ago and while we present committing crime as a choice, we know that living in impoverished conditions will encourage any person, regardless of race, to commit crime

As a result, reforms in policing and how our justice system views criminality are worth pursuing, because allowing the continuation of a system that we acknowledge is born in racism is, itself, racist.



(Mind you, that doesn't 100% align with my view, but I'm working with your own rationale here)

 

[Cabbagehead]

Ok, now I'm going to run with your own reasoning here and I just want to know if you have any objection to this being a logical conclusion:


Economic disparity existed initially due to racism.

That disparity led to higher crime rates among black people, who were largely impoverished

Higher crime meant more people spent time in prison

More time spent in prison meant more children raised by single parents or foster homes

That leads to kids raised with less guidance and nurturing, on average, than white counterparts

This, combined with growing up in poverty where money, quality education, and good role models are scarce, leads to people resorting to crime, as their parents did

Because these areas become known as hotbeds of crime, they are also policed more heavily

Because they are policed more heavily and in poverty, this continues the high incarceration rates which makes it harder to get a job or housing upon release, therefore encouraging repeated offenses

This cycle has repeated generation after generation all the way to today, because we've established that economic disparity will encourage criminal behavior and that economic disparity still exists

Therefore, it is harder to succeed today, on average, as a black person than a white person thanks to the rollover effect of racism long ago and while we present committing crime as a choice, we know that living in impoverished conditions will encourage any person, regardless of race, to commit crime

As a result, reforms in policing and how our justice system views criminality are worth pursuing, because allowing the continuation of a system that we acknowledge is born in racism is, itself, racist.



(Mind you, that doesn't 100% align with my view, but I'm working with your own rationale here)

Also don't forget the systematic push to ruin, wealthy or well off to do independent black communities. At the drop of a hat by any means.