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Musk shuts down X/Twitter operations in Brazil, l

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Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
Less than a month ago, the current president of the united states announced to the world that he would not be running for reelection, and he announced it first on twitter. I'd say it's doing just fine in terms of relevance.

Also, despite the many dumbass things the man has done with the platform since he bought it, using this topic to dunk on Musk rather than the authoritarian absurdity that he's opposing is ridiculous.
I have been witness to "X game is dying" with every GAAS game I've ever played. This sentiment is chanted endlessly by certain personality types. I learned to ignore them long ago. It's just funny how the same people chanted "X is dying" as soon as Musk bought it.
 

Go_Ly_Dow

Member
Lol, people letting their hateboner for Musk cloud their judgement. Brazil ain't the good guy here. The only reason you've been brainwashed into now hating Twitter is because it's no longer a tin soldier for the statist aspect of the US government.

People seem determined to set the stage for authoritarianism.
Point Agree GIF by Ford
 

ManaByte

Member
Also, despite the many dumbass things the man has done with the platform since he bought it, using this topic to dunk on Musk rather than the authoritarian absurdity that he's opposing is ridiculous.

Brazil just didn't pay SpaceX enough for him to censor it the way Turkey did.
 

RAÏSanÏa

Member
Didn't happen.

I assume you're referring to Musk's tweet about a "civil war in the UK being inevitable".

Been covered in detail, speculation is not incitement. And quite honestly, I'm not sure how far off-base he actually is given how the country's going since Labour took power.
It's only been about a month since their elections, hasn't it? They've changed the place that much? or haven't? To be completely objective it might be better to get some data so it doesn't look like fantasy wishful thinking.

Speaking of..."inevitable" sounds like simple wishful thinking, not incitement(Do it!), certainly not de-escalation. But, a mob can only be whipped up with mis/disinformation so many times before the general figure out the gambit, moderate their emotions, re-orient to reality with more wariness, then it's just the hardcore and grifters selling pitchforks and t-shirts. Real troublemakers jailed. Younger generations in an adaptive educated culture learn savvy to recognize and navigate the waters.

The idea of incitement might get some traction with a few folks from it seeming that Muskva and crew thought Twitter shaped society through individual hearts & minds, more than society and hearts & minds shaped twitter before he bought it. With Xitter spiraling down the drain after him putting his theories into practice it would appear his ideas were wrong. And there were some doozies that were related..twitter files...

Also with regards to incitement, in the linked Verge article in the op
it’s unclear if the order for X, the site formerly known as Twitter, to ban certain profiles is linked to supporters of former Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro or members of the far-right movement involved with the January 8th riots.
Letting rioters on the platform might seem like enabling incitement under the veneer of free speech. That accusation would require a trend to hold water.

Regardless of that, if it's just rioters being kept from xitter it doesn't appear to be authoritarianism. A word that implies death sentence for serious agitators and long prison sentences for minor arbitrary infractions against those in power, not the people and their state, for it to not be hyperbole. Requests for twitter bans seems rather light touch.
 

Zathalus

Member
Quite sure that at the rate Elon is going, Twitter is going to face some sort of action in the EU as well. Musk is so far up his ass then rather then try and combat misinformation and racism he’d rather drive Twitter into the ground.
 

WoJ

Member
I don't really follow this stuff that closely, but I know at one point everyone loved Musk. And then his worldview shifted because he recognized a lot of BS but he's still fine.

Also, twitter is still fine despite two years of doom and gloom.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Letting rioters on the platform might seem like enabling incitement under the veneer of free speech. That accusation would require a trend to hold water.

Regardless of that, if it's just rioters being kept from xitter it doesn't appear to be authoritarianism. A word that implies death sentence for serious agitators and long prison sentences for minor arbitrary infractions against those in power, not the people and their state, for it to not be hyperbole. Requests for twitter bans seems rather light touch.
According to recent leaks, this was literally the judge in question he's refering scrolling through his twitter feed, seeing stuff he didn't like, and calling his cabinet to "find stuff" to block them. In one case (this had consequences youtube rather than X though) one of the advisors "looking for stuff" in the conversation quite literally said "he couldn't find anything, just normal publications" and the other answered with "be creative", this was a major magazine too.
 
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Quite sure that at the rate Elon is going, Twitter is going to face some sort of action in the EU as well. Musk is so far up his ass then rather then try and combat misinformation and racism he’d rather drive Twitter into the ground.

What’s misinformation? Who gets to be the arbiter of reality?

"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." - Albert Camus
 
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diffusionx

Gold Member
Vaccine denial, election denial, political interference, antisemitism, racism, holocaust denial, fake news, Russian misinformation, and more are all over Twitter. Most agree those are bad things, and luckily the EU has institutions and courts where things like this can be decided on.
you just listed a bunch of political buzzwords. Is something misinformation because “most” people don’t believe it? That’s crazy. What if they believe in something that is wrong? That happens all the time - Zuckerberg talked about it in a session in front of Congress.

Again who gets to be the arbiter of objective reality? The EU? Since when do they get that power? Because from where I sit, it sounds like you are saying that a government with power gets to decide what is and isn’t true, and use that power to ban whatever they say isn’t true, which is insanity.
 
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Zathalus

Member
"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." - Albert Camus
The nice thing about that quote is that it applies so neatly to Elon Musk as well.

you just listed a bunch of political buzzwords. Is something misinformation because “most” people don’t believe it? That’s crazy. What if they believe in something that is wrong? That happens all the time - Zuckerberg talked about it in a session in front of Congress.

Again who gets to be the arbiter of objective reality? The EU? Since when do they get that power?
Ah yes, the political buzzword know as… Racism. Cute way of trying to deflect the points made. And yes, the EU gets to decide what is allowed in EU member states. Its organizations were put in power by those very same people and governments that belong to it. Twitter doesnt have to adhere to any ruling that is made in the EU, it would just need to stop any activities in the EU if it does not wish to comply with said rulings.
 
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LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
I use X now more than ever to get more facts about the news. I don't go looking for stupid shit. I've never used it more than the last 6 months.
 
Again who gets to be the arbiter of objective reality? The EU? Since when do they get that power? Because from where I sit, it sounds like you are saying that a government with power gets to decide what is and isn’t true, and use that power to ban whatever they say isn’t true, which is insanity.
From his point of view is seems like the truth is only what he believes in.
It is like that expression that "everything is a conspiracy until it isn't"

I use X now more than ever to get more facts about the news. I don't go looking for stupid shit. I've never used it more than the last 6 months.
The only issue with the current Twitter is that it seems the timeline is a complete mess where I get posts from minutes ago, days ago from various topics that I am not even interested in and have to block words.
 
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Zathalus

Member
From his point of view is seems like the truth is only what he believes in.

It is like that expression that "everything is a conspiracy until it isn't"
Call me crazy, but thinking holocaust and vaccine deniers are spreading misinformation seems to align with reality. But who knows? Maybe the Earth is flat as well?
 

Nydius

Member
People cheering for this because they hate Musk or X are missing the forest for the trees. Go back and reread what happened: A government demanded a private entity to comply with state mandated censorship or face arrest. And they did this in a secret order.

If you read that and your first thought is “hahah fuck Musk” and not “holy shit, that’s how tyrannical regimes take hold”, you need a reality check.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
The nice thing about that quote is that it applies so neatly to Elon Musk as well.


Ah yes, the political buzzword know as… Racism. Cute way of trying to deflect the points made. And yes, the EU gets to decide what is allowed in EU member states. Its organizations were put in power by those very same people and governments that belong to it. Twitter doesnt have to adhere to any ruling that is made in the EU, it would just need to stop any activities in the EU if it does not wish to comply with said rulings.
There is no deflection. The EU can decide what people says in the EU because they have power and the people don’t. They can decide how tyrannical they want to be but that is what it is about.

“Misinformation” is not a real thing. It’s something they made up in the 10s because the proles were getting uppity and they didn’t like it. The idea of “misinformation” implies that some government organization can decide what “information” is, which is ludicrous because government will always act in its own interest to increase its power.
 
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LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
From his point of view is seems like the truth is only what he believes in.
It is like that expression that "everything is a conspiracy until it isn't"


The only issue with the current Twitter is that it seems the timeline is a complete mess where I get posts from minutes ago, days ago from various topics that I am not even interested in and have to block words.
That's true for me as well. I end up getting what I came for and then some but you are right.
 

Zathalus

Member
There is no deflection. The EU can decide what people says in the EU because they have power and the people don’t. They can decide how tyrannical they want to be but that is what it is about.

“Misinformation” is not a real thing. It’s something they made up in the 10s because the proles were getting uppity and they didn’t like it. The idea of “misinformation” implies that some government organization can decide what “information” is, which is ludicrous because government will always act in its own interest to increase its power.
So you are claiming there is absolutely no false or misleading information on Twitter at all? There are not bots, absolutely no racism, and nobody is trying to deceive anyone?
 

RAÏSanÏa

Member
According to recent leaks, this was literally the judge in question he's refering scrolling through his twitter feed, seeing stuff he didn't like, and calling his cabinet to "find stuff" to block them. In one case (this had consequences youtube rather than X though) one of the advisors "looking for stuff" in the conversation quite literally said "he couldn't find anything, just normal publications" and the other answered with "be creative", this was a major magazine too.
That situation sounds like very troubling corruption if true. Bypassing oversight to intimidate and use federal authority from the background for political gain. Can the fed be intimidated like that? People would loose their shit here.

Needs more info and investigation. Motivates aren't clear. Leaks can be questionable. Need names and gov positions with timeline with verified events for it to make sense. Even true there still doesn't sound like the immediate organized suspension of democracy to seize or keep power like "looking for more votes". But, it's a quick slippery slope from "find what I need" to "fuck it whatever".
 

Guilty_AI

Member
That situation sounds like very troubling corruption if true. Bypassing oversight to intimidate and use federal authority from the background for political gain. Can the fed be intimidated like that? People would loose their shit here.

Needs more info and investigation. Motivates aren't clear. Leaks can be questionable. Need names and gov positions with timeline with verified events for it to make sense. Even true there still doesn't sound like the immediate organized suspension of democracy to seize or keep power like "looking for more votes". But, it's a quick slippery slope from "find what I need" to "fuck it whatever".
We already know all of these things as well as the source of the leaks (the cellphone of said advisor), and yes, it is a slippery slope for tyranny. Keep in mind our president is still covering up for Maduro after their elections. Many of the people in power here would love nothing more than turn the country into another Venezuela. And i'm seeing this exact trend in other places while some people still go on about "but muh misinformation"
 
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diffusionx

Gold Member
So you are claiming there is absolutely no false or misleading information on Twitter at all? There are not bots, absolutely no racism, and nobody is trying to deceive anyone?
I’m saying two things, one is, if you decide that “false information” needs to be taken off of twitter or whatever, who decides what is false and why do they get the power to do so. Why does this person or government office have the power to, again, decide what objective reality is?

One of the earliest test cases of this misinformation regime was when the government demanded that social media censor the “lab leak” theory about Covid. Except two years later they decided that it was actually probably true. So people got banned and punished for saying stuff that was probably true. It was better for the government to say that bat soup caused the virus so they essentially said it was illegal to say that it was not bat soup. It had NOTHING to do with what was false or true and everything to do with the government trying to block embarrassing discussion.
 
Call me crazy, but thinking holocaust and vaccine deniers are spreading misinformation seems to align with reality. But who knows? Maybe the Earth is flat as well?
Considering how much information has been revealed post COVID the whole vaccination it is and was an extremely shady thing fueled by media with one, two, three etc. shots or how much testing was done for this and that and so on.

Holocaust, racism etc. all of it are just labels to a classic ethnic persecution. When turks genocided armenians , when serbs genocided croatians - how different was it? Or it becomes different because the skin color is different? Or if you are coming from a different continent? How it is different than coming from a different country or village? Hell, people cannot decide if egyptians are white, brown or black. "Yeah they were kidnapping these people but they were not black enough to become slaves according to my book".

All of that mess is mainly fueled by USA because when a guy from USA comes to Europe he becomes not "african-american" or "latino" or "indian-america" or "asian-american" (and even then you have subgroups) but just "american". USA folks like to assign labels to every minor thing to somehow make everything "unique" and "special".

You really sound like a guy who blindly believes media and probably post a lot on Etcetera.
 
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Zathalus

Member
I’m saying two things, one is, if you decide that “false information” needs to be taken off of twitter or whatever, who decides what is false and why do they get the power to do so. Why does this person or government office have the power to, again, decide what objective reality is?

One of the earliest test cases of this misinformation regime was when the government demanded that social media censor the “lab leak” theory about Covid. Except two years later they decided that it was actually probably true. So people got banned and punished for saying stuff that was probably true. It was better for the government to say that bat soup caused the virus so they essentially said it was illegal to say that it was not bat soup. It had NOTHING to do with what was false or true and everything to do with the government trying to block embarrassing discussion.
Nobody is decided what objective reality is, the only things I’m advocating for is that hate speech such as racism and antisemitism as well as clear misinformation that can lead to very real negative repercussions such as vaccine denialism be moderated on Social Media platforms.

You even believe the lab leak theory which is still untrue, no matter how many people try and twist it for political reasons.

I personally don’t believe in absolute free speech, especially not from corporations that have more influence over people then most governments do. So I guess we will just have to disagree.
Considering how much information has been revealed post COVID the whole vaccination it is and was an extremely shady thing fueled by media with one, two, three etc. shots or how much testing was done for this and that and so on.

Holocaust, racism etc. all of it are just labels to a classic ethnic persecution. When turks genocided armenians , when serbs genocided croatians - how different was it? Or it becomes different because the skin color is different? Or if you are coming from a different continent? How it is different than coming from a different country or village? Hell, people cannot decide if egyptians are white, brown or black.

All of that mess is mainly fueled by USA because when a guy from USA comes to Europe he becomes not "african-american" or "latino" or "indian-america" or "asian-american" (and even then you have subgroups) but just "american". USA folks like to assign labels to every minor thing.

To be honest, you sound like a guy who blindly believes media and probably post a lot on Etcetera.
I listen to what the overwhelming scientific consensus on a subject is, rather then fringe theory nonsense. I believe we landed on the Moon as well, is that also me being led astray by the truth? I’m not sure what the rest of your post has got to do with holocaust denialism , I’m clearly referring to those nutters who think the Nazis didn’t really kill any Jewish people.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
Nobody is decided what objective reality is, the only things I’m advocating for is that hate speech such as racism and antisemitism as well as clear misinformation that can lead to very real negative repercussions such as vaccine denialism be moderated on Social Media platforms.

You even believe the lab leak theory which is still untrue, no matter how many people try and twist it for political reasons.

I personally don’t believe in absolute free speech, especially not from corporations that have more influence over people then most governments do. So I guess we will just have to disagree.

I listen to what the overwhelming scientific consensus on a subject is, rather then fringe theory nonsense. I believe we landed on the Moon as well, is that also me being led astray by the truth? I’m not sure what the rest of your post has got to do with holocaust denialism , I’m clearly referring to those nutters who think the Nazis didn’t really kill any Jewish people.
No, the government said that the lab leak theory is more likely the true one, which is the whole point of what I am saying. The whole concept of "misinformation" is based on this idea that somebody can decide what "information" is, when in reality that isn't true at all, especially for stuff that just happened or is ongoing. If you want to ban stuff, then it's just banning stuff. I personally do not feel the need to ban stuff, whether it is about historical events or lifestyle choices, and I also don't think it is productive and I don't think it leads to the desired outcomes. But, again, in Europe, discussion of many topics is banned and has been for decades.

And the last five years proved unequivocally that the corporations do not have more influence over people than governments.
 
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DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
There is objective truth. Saying "who decides what's truth" is obfuscation of what is real.

Did so and so really do this? He says he didn't but unedited video shows he did.

Did they the act? He and they said they didn't but the unedited video shows they did.

Did such and such happen? Unedited audio shows that it did happen.

That's what Zathalus Zathalus is trying to say.
 
So you are claiming there is absolutely no false or misleading information on Twitter at all? There are not bots, absolutely no racism, and nobody is trying to deceive anyone?
No one is claiming any of that. I certainly am not. The real concern is who in the government should decide what ideas should be removed from all social media? What if you disagree? What if you agree now, but someone you completely disagree with is elected later who then uses the government to remove ideas and people that you do agree with?

Should the government be able to decide that Hamas is a terrorist organization, and anyone who disagrees with this should be removed from social media? If you agree with that, what happens if later on someone in government decides that Israel is in the wrong, and the suggestion that Hamas is a terrorist organization is hate speech? This is why people need to fight for speech that they disagree with.

I'll also include this, because it's one of the best exchanges I've ever seen on the topic. It's good because he agrees there is a real concern with every point that you're making, it's just that concern should never outweigh personal freedom, because it leads to authoritarianism.

 

Mistake

Gold Member
Nobody is decided what objective reality is, the only things I’m advocating for is that hate speech such as racism and antisemitism as well as clear misinformation that can lead to very real negative repercussions such as vaccine denialism be moderated on Social Media platforms.

You even believe the lab leak theory which is still untrue, no matter how many people try and twist it for political reasons.

I personally don’t believe in absolute free speech, especially not from corporations that have more influence over people then most governments do. So I guess we will just have to disagree.

I listen to what the overwhelming scientific consensus on a subject is, rather then fringe theory nonsense. I believe we landed on the Moon as well, is that also me being led astray by the truth? I’m not sure what the rest of your post has got to do with holocaust denialism , I’m clearly referring to those nutters who think the Nazis didn’t really kill any Jewish people.
At this point, unequivocally believing the lab leak theory is false puts you in the minority. Plenty of information showing it's likely, and the US government said as much. But it's not like a communist country will let us go in and do a proper investigation, so it will always remain a theory.

Consensus doesn't mean something is true either. If that were the case, the sun would go around the earth. Nothing wrong with asking questions, but it is wrong to get lost in the sauce. And if you won't let people talk about their concerns willingly, you're actually encouraging the radicals you're so worried about

Frankly, I have no idea on Musk's true understanding or goal when it comes to free speech. He's been a wild card on it. Him telling the EU to F off and then the thing with turkey....doesn't make sense
 
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Zathalus

Member
At this point, unequivocally believing the lab leak theory is false puts you in the minority. Plenty of information showing it's likely, and the US government said as much. But it's not like a communist country will let us go in and do a proper investigation, so it will always remain a theory.

Consensus doesn't mean something is true either. If that were the case, the sun would go around the earth. Nothing wrong with asking questions, but it is wrong to get lost in the sauce. And if you won't let people talk about their concerns willingly, you're actually encouraging the radicals you're so worried about
Most US intelligence agencies believe it was not a lab leak, all of them agree it was certainly natural and not engineered or man made:

 

Mistake

Gold Member
Most US intelligence agencies believe it was not a lab leak, all of them agree it was certainly natural and not engineered or man made:

This document is a lot more damning, not less. Tldr: we don't know, maybe maybe maybe, oh btw they did have shit safety standards though! Case closed
 

Zathalus

Member
So the "not most" US intelligence agencies are allowed to believe and discuss the lab-leak theory but the general public isn't?
I claimed that where exactly? My issue isn’t even with Covid, that just got sidetracked into the discussion. My problem is with vaccine misinformation regarding vaccines and autism which has led to the very real world consequences of children dying.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
I claimed that where exactly? My issue isn’t even with Covid, that just got sidetracked into the discussion. My problem is with vaccine misinformation regarding vaccines and autism which has led to the very real world consequences of children dying.
too bad these same "speech regulation measures" you're defending were also used on the things you apparently don't have a problem with.
 
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RAÏSanÏa

Member
No one is claiming any of that. I certainly am not. The real concern is who in the government should decide what ideas should be removed from all social media? What if you disagree? What if you agree now, but someone you completely disagree with is elected later who then uses the government to remove ideas and people that you do agree with?

Should the government be able to decide that Hamas is a terrorist organization, and anyone who disagrees with this should be removed from social media? If you agree with that, what happens if later on someone in government decides that Israel is in the wrong, and the suggestion that Hamas is a terrorist organization is hate speech? This is why people need to fight for speech that they disagree with.

I'll also include this, because it's one of the best exchanges I've ever seen on the topic. It's good because he agrees there is a real concern with every point that you're making, it's just that concern should never outweigh personal freedom, because it leads to authoritarianism.


The free market is largely deciding atm based around common virtues.

For individuals to be censured like this here, and I would assume most Western nations, the courts make decisions about this based on policy and law, in public, with no direct interaction with gov officials. The elected officials can't direct the court. That's what makes the Brazil case seem so unbelievable for me.

It might be different in your country where the government decides and can tell the courts what to do. But don't assume that is universal.

And it doesn't necessarily lead to authoritarianism, only in absurd reductions. No one is being executed and disappeared for their words in any possible scenario unless it's someplace where authoritarianism is already in place like Russia.

Here they have to put others in some kind of danger, repeatedly, for it to even start a criminal process. Even then most cases in the country find alternatives to harsh sentences, except for the very worst circumstances. Someone in power here tries to take advantage of those protections for themselves for political gain would be in serious shit.
 

Sonik

Member
Threads has already surpassed Twitter in number of users in the US. But whenever someone brings that up it's mocked by the Musk cult.

They definitely surpassed them in bots that's for sure. Threads is neither culturally relevant or is talked about by anyone organically, you have to be extremely naive to even compare the two
 

Zathalus

Member
Pray they don't switch their target from "things you don't have a problem with" to "things you believe and advocate"
Oh no! Not the slippery slope! Better hope they don’t come after me when I say I don’t really care for football. Where will this madness end?
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
There is objective truth. Saying "who decides what's truth" is obfuscation of what is real.

Did so and so really do this? He says he didn't but unedited video shows he did.

Did they the act? He and they said they didn't but the unedited video shows they did.

Did such and such happen? Unedited audio shows that it did happen.

That's what Zathalus Zathalus is trying to say.
If somebody said they did ABC but they didn’t I don’t see why it is the governments job to regulate this or demand some massive infrastructure and bureaucracy to regulate it. It’s not illegal to lie.

Government are the biggest liars.
 
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FireFly

Member
The whole concept of "misinformation" is based on this idea that somebody can decide what "information" is, when in reality that isn't true at all, especially for stuff that just happened or is ongoing.
Either there is a process by which data becomes information, or there isn't. If there is, then if the process isn't followed, we can say that information isn't being created.

If there isn't then unless information just pops into being like mana from the Gods, then I think we're left with radical scepticism about the ability to "know" anything at all. So we should just retreat into our caves and view the world as a mysterious and unknowable thing.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
Oh no! Not the slippery slope! Better hope they don’t come after me when I say I don’t really care for football. Where will this madness end?
Let me tell you a little not-so-secret. Tyrants love championing progressive ideals when they want to obtain power - easier to create drastic, convenient changes in society such as "anti-free-speech laws" or police states that way.

But to maintain it? They prefer hyper-conservadorism. I sure hope you aren't the progressive kind, because the ideals those people defend like protection of minorities or proper labor rights are usually the first to go. Its not a coincidence the biggest dictatorships in the world right now have super racist, super-nationalist and/or homophobic cultures.
 
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diffusionx

Gold Member
Either there is a process by which data becomes information, or there isn't. If there is, then if the process isn't followed, we can say that information isn't being created.

If there isn't then unless information just pops into being like mana from the Gods, then I think we're left with radical scepticism about the ability to "know" anything at all. So we should just retreat into our caves and view the world as a mysterious and unknowable thing.
This is really the primary strength of free speech. But you need that because the speech is the process. The government can only do one thing, which is exercise power. It can’t arbitrate reality.
 

RAÏSanÏa

Member
Ever present uncertainty make Fallibilism appealing to at least make the next informed step.
 
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FireFly

Member
This is really the primary strength of free speech. But you need that because the speech is the process. The government can only do one thing, which is exercise power. It can’t arbitrate reality.
So suppose I put a deepfake video of a politician saying something inflammatory online (that he never actually said). Is this free speech to you? And if so, does this act of free speech render the video "information" about something that happened in the world?
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
So suppose I put a deepfake video of a politician saying something inflammatory online (that he never actually said). Is this free speech to you? And if so, does this act of free speech render the video "information" about something that happened in the world?
You can do whatever you want. The politician can come out and say it is a deepfake. If sone people believe it is real, it is what it is. I’ll tell you one thing, the government saying it’s fake won’t make them believe it’s fake. Banning the video won’t make people believe it’s fake.
 
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