What are you reading? (August 2015)

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TTG

Member
Second read through of A Confederacy of Dunces and it just hit me that Ignatius J. Reily is the internet lol. He hates most things, he thinks of himself as the smartest person in the room, he is an outsider by choice, and he really hates most things.

He even finds himself on these quasi-quixotic quests that he undertakes for purely selfish reasons and invariably abandons impulsively. Man, the final chapters of that book hit me hard in the feels. It drags a bit in the middle, but damn if it isn't ultimately heartrending.

EDIT: I'm now the first post on three pages in a row and I swear it's a total coincidence. I hope my bullshit, literally front and center again, won't dissuade too many people from participating.
 

Kamion

Member
Just finished Pines (first of the Wayward Pines books) on my commute to work. Thank god this was on the Amazon Prime Kindle library thing because while it was a fun read - I think I might have regretted purchasing it.
I dunno, I just never felt like it did anything worthwhile with it's very cool premise and the twist was too outlandish kinda.
Don't know if I'm going to read the other two. Maybe if I find nothing else in the Prime library next month.

Next will probably be Augustus. Just because everyone in this thread seems to adore it.
 
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I'm a bit lttp on this one. While I was 'meh' at the very beginning, I ended up enjoying it quite a bit, but more for its smaller moments, really, than its overall impact. Or maybe I enjoyed the central conceit of the pandemic and life being so radically altered in its aftermath more than the inter-relatedness of the characters.

Basically, it worked as a whole, while individual aspects were more successful than others.
 
Will take a short break from Brandon Sanderson and try this for a change..

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I started this last night. It's kind of rough and coarse to start. It's not enough to annoy me but I hope that since the big revelation is finally out (so you can tell I'm early yet) that the story starts to pick up.

I am starting to see the truth to the "fantasy does not need to be a series" argument. Just write a good book, see if the series comes naturally or not.

Finished the Snow Crash audiobook this weekend (had a long-ass drive) and it was just alright. The performance was lackluster, the random bits of music and glossolalia interspersed throughout the narrative remained annoying, and the story just wasn't as good as the first time I read it. Guess that happens for most things that are 'firsts' and are copied ad nauseum to where you've seen it done better due to iteration.

Still listening to The Golem and The Jinni (stupid Americanization, I know what a Djinni is!).
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Trilogy? I only read 10-book superepics.

How am I supposed to build a world with only one book? The geopolitics alone would take 3 tomes of lore.
 
Trilogy? I only read 10-book superepics.

How am I supposed to build a world with only one book? The geopolitics alone would take 3 tomes of lore.

True, true. Trilogy at an *absolute* minimum. Anything less is an insult by its very existence.
 

mu cephei

Member
pfft, indeed.

I found her claim that, "But such narration is distancing: it leaves us watching what Jude feels, rather than actively sharing in his confusion, pain, suffering," to be poorly supported. There are certainly people who felt that way, and I think that if someone described the narration in the abstract way that she does, I would think that it shouldn't work. But it very clearly does for many people - she even admits several times that the emotional effect works for her. But then she simply just asserts that it does not work as a fait accompli.

It's something of a mirror image of the assertions made in the New Yorker review; that review argues that the book starts as something more ordinary, and becomes something more subversive. This is what she has said she was going for in interviews; she wanted the beginning to be a recognizable study of a genre, with the interiority of healthier characters like Malcolm and J.B. contrasting with Jude's. Instead, Churchwell argues, "As its focus on Jude intensifies, the novel stops being what made it unusual". But it makes no sense. Everyone - including Churchwell! - has made comparisons to Mary McCarthy's The Group. Her critique just doesn't make any sense; she contradicts the argument she makes herself.

And I think it's just a bad reading in general; she repeatedly makes claims that simply aren't true. It is not the case that, for instance, "the people who love him are as endlessly occupied by his psychodrama as he is." It's as if she forgets that we're seeing their lives as they relate to his life, and not the totality of those characters' lives.

But yes, mediocre review.

I was really looking forward to the Guardian's review, as their Review section is where I find out about a lot of the books I'd like to read. But yeah, not only was Churchill's review a poorly argued mess, but her contradictory critique indicates she didn't really try to engage with the book. She barely asks what Yanagihara was aiming to achieve or why she made the choices she did. And yeah, many of her statements are just inane (focussing on Jude is infelicitous!). Comparing it to the insightful New Yorker review makes it look even more flimsy.

I'd be kind of interested in seeing her notes for this review. I imagine them as an A'Level English essay, with so many bits crossed out, re-written, rearranged and squished to fit the wordcount it no longer makes any sense. That's how it reads to me, anyway.

Apparently the Sunday Times found a fair bit to criticise in A Little Life as well, but it's behind a paywall.
 

TTG

Member
Just admit your book sucks mu cephei. Is the magic system internally consistent, does it even have a map? Leave the Guardians alone. They've earned a brief sojourn after their trials. To hear the sad trembling song of the lute, to enjoy a delicious sweet tankard of ale from the fall's blondest harvest. Most of all to remember those fellow Guardians lost in the defense of the Kingdoms by the crackling hearth, why do you pester them so?
 

putarorex

Member
I just finished the Crippled God, the last book in the ten-book Malazan series.

I almost gave up on the series several times. I found some things pretty frustrating: Erikson's habit of waiting three or four paragraphs to identify the PoV character (if at all), the lack of descriptions (finding out a detail about what someone looks like a few books later), the way everyone seems to get philosophical about things even the children, the omniscience of a lot of the characters even when they are not divine.

Still, there are so many great parts in the books. Not just the battles, but memorable dialogue and epic scenes. I found some parts geniunely moving, especially toward the later books. I almost missed my home station on the train a couple times because I was so engrossed. A great series overall and I don't regret sticking with it.

In fact, I am thinking about rereading the books now that I have better understanding of his fascinating world and characters.
 

mu cephei

Member
Just admit your book sucks mu cephei.

lol.
yup, I came across as a sore loser >.<

Maps are for wimps. Magic systems are so last year. And the Guardians totally fell down in their duty, that's why. They don't deserve a rest. They'll get hit over the head with their mournful lutes until they see sense.
 
Finished John Dies at the End. It was .. ok. I had a real tough time with the first half or so. It was a little too abstract for my tastes and I felt lost at times. It got better as it got closer to the end but I don't feel a need to move on to the next book.

Now in the mood for some southern noir so I started The Devil All the Time. I see it in discussions around Galveston and True Detective so I'm hoping it lives up to the comparison.


The Devil All the Time by Donald Ray Pollock
 
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Absolutely wonderful stuff. Short and sweet stories steeped in knowledge, symbolism, complexity and fascinating concepts.

Also, a question to any of those who have read Borges... I have just read The Gospel According to Mark and now I am going insane trying to figure out some of Borges' symbolism. This one part in particular, where the
little girl comes to sleep with Espinosa the night before they go to crucify him.
What did Borges want to convey with this event? It is driving me mad trying to figure it out. I'd love some interpretations from those of you who have read the story (if there are any).
 

Mumei

Member
There was an interesting article today on The Atlantic, "How Stories Shape Personalities" (or, in the tab "Story of My Life: How Narrative Creates Personality" Why do websites do this, anyway?). It's a fascinating article, and I was thinking of it in relation to that Le Guin quote about reading and how the stories they contain can help us rethink ourselves:

"We read to find out who we are. What other people, real or imaginary, do and think and feel - or have done and thought and felt; or might do and think and feel - is an essential guide to our understanding of what we ourselves are and may become . . . a person who had never listend to nor read a tale nor myth or parable or story, would remain ignorant of his own emotional and spiritual heights and depths, would not know quite fully what it is to be human."
 
I started this last night. It's kind of rough and coarse to start. It's not enough to annoy me but I hope that since the big revelation is finally out (so you can tell I'm early yet) that the story starts to pick up.

I am starting to see the truth to the "fantasy does not need to be a series" argument. Just write a good book, see if the series comes naturally or not.

Finished the Snow Crash audiobook this weekend (had a long-ass drive) and it was just alright. The performance was lackluster, the random bits of music and glossolalia interspersed throughout the narrative remained annoying, and the story just wasn't as good as the first time I read it. Guess that happens for most things that are 'firsts' and are copied ad nauseum to where you've seen it done better due to iteration.

Still listening to The Golem and The Jinni (stupid Americanization, I know what a Djinni is!).

I agree with you so far. I just started as well and not sure what to make of it so far. I hate these kinds of books where it's disengaging in the beginning.
 
I haven't been reading a lot but I finally decided to pick up Harlon Ellison's I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream and holy jesus christ almighty

I'm still reading book 1 of the Star Wars Thrawn trilogy and it's pretty mediocre. The pacing isn't very good.
 

Alucard

Banned
I haven't been reading a lot but I finally decided to pick up Harlon Ellison's I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream and holy jesus christ almighty

I'm still reading book 1 of the Star Wars Thrawn trilogy and it's pretty mediocre. The pacing isn't very good.

The Thrawn books got worse as they went on in my opinion. When it comes to Star Wars novels, they are certainly better than garbage like The Truce at Bakura or The Courtship of Princess Leia, but relative to other space fantasy, the trilogy could be considered "good" at best.
 

Aiii

So not worth it
So I'm halfway through Ready Player One and I'm determined to finish it, but fuck this book is the very definition of a cheap pop. The protagonist is a complete anti-social piece of shit. Literally living behind his computer, to the point where he paints his fucking window black because seeing sunlight is scary or something wtf. He also has no friends and lusts after a video game avatar. If you knew this person in real life you'd go out of your way to avoid talking to them or being near them.

He also gets
a bunch of people murdered
and barely gives a shit, because
two of them are his aunt and her boyfriend, who steal a very old laptop from him once, so they probably deserved to die
. What a piece of trash.

The book itself is written poorly, with over-indulgent prose throughout. But I can forgive that. What I can't forgive is the poor story structure, where events just happen without rime and reason. Guy just happens into stuff and there's no real reason for him to know any of the information he just knows out of nowhere, but he does. It's deus ex machine after deus ex machina, it's insane.

And then there's the references. Which is where the cheap pops come in. 99% of the references serve absolutely no purpose in the story, they're just there for the nostalgia feelings. "Oh hey guys, remember this thing?" I mean, at one point the guy gets a mount ingame that's
a DeLorean from BTTF, but with KITT installed and the flashing red lights on the front. Oh, and the Ghostbuster logo is on the side, because remember Ghostbusters, guys?
It's the absolute most cringeworthy thing in the book, but there's tons of examples like this.

The MMO world itself is equally bad in that it's not original. For instance, part of the world is just "Azaroth absorbed into the OASIS (the MMO in question)", the rest are just 80s references. Oh here's a world that looks like an old game. Here's a building that resembles this pizza chain from the 80s. I'll give the author some credit for mining the 80s like this and there are some original ideas here and there and it's the only reason I'm sticking around to see the end of it (and I'm really bad at dropping stuff midway through), but I cringe at nearly every reference in this book and not getting drawn in by those really exposes just how poor the story is.

The back of the book shows a quote attributed to Huffington Post that says "Delightful... The Grown-Up's Harry Potter" which makes me fume. Harry Potter has flaws, but that had a self-contained original world that took the author tons of effort to carefully craft and feel like it's lived in. RPO has none of that depth, it's a shallow world with shallow characters which is supposed to connect to the reader through nostalgia, it has none of the quality of Harry Potter and the comparison just angers me.

Finally, there's a huge disconnect between the intended reader and the way the book is written. It's obviously a mediocre written young-adult book in the vein of The Maze Runner's of the world... But the references make the books aimed at 30-40 year olds, who actually have a connection to the 80s... It' makes no sense. Had the author spend more time writing for adults, reduced the references to ones making sense to the world instead of just name-dropping thousands of references, perhaps the book would have been decent.

I can see this book making a decent translation to a 2-hour movie though, the framework is okay and Spielberg could make this work by dropping all the extra references. The main character definitely needs to be tweaked to become even remotely likable.
 

omgkitty

Member
Actually read both of these several years ago from fan translations online, but figured I'd read them again as they're both very short. I'm not too far into Hear the Wind Sing, but for whatever reason, it feels different from the first time I read it. It feels slightly more "Americanized" than it was before. I don't even know if this is actually the case as I don't have what I read side by side with it, but it does feel different.

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It feels slightly more "Americanized" than it was before. I don't even know if this is actually the case as I don't have what I read side by side with it, but it does feel different.

That could be the translation, couldn't it? I was reading something yesterday about two translations of a Brazilian writer, and one translated a word (which actually was Portuguese for 'family') to 'city' and the other to 'family'. Kind of mind-blowing...if you're into that sort of thing.
 
I agree with you so far. I just started as well and not sure what to make of it so far. I hate these kinds of books where it's disengaging in the beginning.

I was curious so I looked at some reviews on GoodReads. This one stuck out to me for two reasons:
Robin Hobb rated it 5 of 5 stars
I had to grit my teeth several times to get through this, and more than once I wondered, "Why was this recommended to me?" Then the pieces began to fall into place. Not a tale for the faint of heart, but well worth it to prevail. Trust me.
First: Robin Hobb. Second: The exact problem I'm having with the beginning.

Going through the reviews, Terry Brooks and Rock Riordan (odd man out, that one) both reviewed it well too. I gotta say interest is piqued as to what the story's going to bring in the next half of the book.

Finished reading "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" to my son last night. When I started it, he looked at it and said, "you're not reading that to me. It looks dumb." I told him I was going to read it because he would like it. You loved the movie, after all! He denied ever having seen it, and I told him he watched it when he was 5 or 6 and loved it. Anyway, he got into the story from the start and it's so fun watching him listen to you read. I came home from work yesterday and he had drawn a poster for it with quotes he pulled because he was reading ahead and not waiting for me to read. I told him there are four (five if you're technical) more books and he's excited to read them all.

I'm glad he's excited to read something other than dragons finally. Next up is Terry Pratchett. We've watched "Soul Music" and he enjoyed it well enough and I got him to read the "Dragons at Crumbling Castle: And Other Stories" and that was only tangentially dragon related. What would you suggest as a good first proper Pratchett book?
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Mort.

Color of Magic and Light Fantastic contain a lot of meta-humor that might fly over his head. Equal Rites is mostly Pratchett's yet unformed feminism talking. I think he can really take an interest in Mort, and Death will be a very cool character for him to read about.
 

Great book, and check out his short stories in Knockemstiff. That said I call it more 'white trash' noir, since it doesn't take place in the South. I am a big fan of Southern aka Appalachian aka 'white trash' noir, so any recommendations please send my way.

When talking about Southern noir I assume you have read Daniel Woodrell (famous for Winter's Bone)? Also William Gay out of Tennessee is pretty great too.
 
Great book, and check out his short stories in Knockemstiff. That said I call it more 'white trash' noir, since it doesn't take place in the South. I am a big fan of Southern aka Appalachian aka 'white trash' noir, so any recommendations please send my way.

When talking about Southern noir I assume you have read Daniel Woodrell (famous for Winter's Bone)? Also William Gay out of Tennessee is pretty great too.

You nailed it. And I'm with you on the genre. Also, William Gay is fantastic. Love all his stuff I read so far. And I just read Winter's Bone and loved that as well. I'm about 30% in to Devil and its great. Exactly what I wanted.

And all I can really recommend at the moment is Galveston (and Ploughmen to some extent). But I have a bunch on my list to read - Child of God, A Swollen Red Sun, Give Us a Kiss, The Bayou Trilogy, The Lost Country, etc. Anything specific other than Knockemstiff you have to recommend?
 
Finished Bird Box by Josh Malerman a while ago. It was recommended to me by a friend on GoodReads a long time ago. I just finally gave it a shot. Really superb, post-apocalypse book. Malerman really got a lot of mileage out of having his characters blindfolded. Lots of great suspense sequences. The unknown quality of the monsters added a great Lovecraftian edge. Wish I read it back when it was recommended.

Tried to get through Armor by John Steakly, but gave up about halfway through. I was really into the armor war stuff. When the book jumps to the space pirate stuff, it just lost me. Felt like a different book and world. Really disappointing.

Recently started:

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The first time I've read any Maberry. Really enjoying it so far. Hopefully he keeps it on track.
 
You nailed it. And I'm with you on the genre. Also, William Gay is fantastic. Love all his stuff I read so far. And I just read Winter's Bone and loved that as well. I'm about 30% in to Devil and its great. Exactly what I wanted.

And all I can really recommend at the moment is Galveston (and Ploughmen to some extent). But I have a bunch on my list to read - Child of God, A Swollen Red Sun, Give Us a Kiss, The Bayou Trilogy, The Lost Country, etc. Anything specific other than Knockemstiff you have to recommend?

Yes I read Galveston last year during season 1 of True Detective.

Ron Rash out of Asheville, NC is pretty good too, and he really gets the people right. I live in Knoxville, TN, grew up in Johnson City, TN, and my family is all from the Blueridge Mountains of NC (I was born in Hickory, NC), so I know these people. Also Last Call for the Living by Peter Farris keeps getting recommend to me. I'm on a Western kick right now, but I'm tempted to pick it up next.
 
Yes I read Galveston last year during season 1 of True Detective.

Ron Rash out of Asheville, NC is pretty good too, and he really gets the people right. I live in Knoxville, TN, grew up in Johnson City, TN, and my family is all from the Blueridge Mountains of NC (I was born in Hickory, NC), so I know these people. Also Last Call for the Living by Peter Farris keeps getting recommend to me. I'm on a Western kick right now, but I'm tempted to pick it up next.

I'm from a rural Appalachia area of PA and we have the same environment here. Some people even have quasi southern accents somehow (reminds me of the David Cross joke). Only difference is it gets colder here and we have more coal mines. Hehe

And I added that Last Call book to my wishlist.

Knowing you're into westerns too you may want to actually look into The Ploughmen book I mentioned before. It kinda mashes up a touch of the 'white trash' stuff with western. Its somewhat similar to No Country for Old Men in story and tone.
 

tariniel

Member
I just finished the Crippled God, the last book in the ten-book Malazan series.

I almost gave up on the series several times. I found some things pretty frustrating: Erikson's habit of waiting three or four paragraphs to identify the PoV character (if at all), the lack of descriptions (finding out a detail about what someone looks like a few books later), the way everyone seems to get philosophical about things even the children, the omniscience of a lot of the characters even when they are not divine.

Still, there are so many great parts in the books. Not just the battles, but memorable dialogue and epic scenes. I found some parts geniunely moving, especially toward the later books. I almost missed my home station on the train a couple times because I was so engrossed. A great series overall and I don't regret sticking with it.

In fact, I am thinking about rereading the books now that I have better understanding of his fascinating world and characters.

I also just finished The Crippled God this morning. The last book nearly had me in tears in several spots:
Onos Toolan reuniting with his family, and seeing Toc in the distance. Fiddler asking Hedge to stay a few more years. Gall's farewell to his wife. Whiskeyjack's squad reuniting, and Whiskeyjack + Korlat while Fiddler plays. Probably more that I am forgetting to list here.
. There were so many amazing characters and friendships in this series too. I'll never forget Bugg & Tehol, Kruppe, Iskaral Pust. I don't think a book has ever made me laugh more than Tehol & Bugg.

In general I agree with the criticisms most people have on the series, namely that they are far too long for what they are. The philosophizing from every single character gets very tiring.

There was also much less closure for some characters than I would have liked, and some characters who I thought were important that didn't even appear or end up doing anything at all.

Overall I enjoyed the series and don't regret reading any of the books, and I feel a bit relieved to have finished it. I'm considering what to read next, hopefully something easier to rest my brain. I've been thinking of Dresden Files but I don't know if it's an easier read or not.
 

besada

Banned
The hardest thing about a Hugo read through is staying on track. You hit a book like Dune, and rather than go on to the next book, you find yourself reading the entire Dune saga. At this rate I'll be done by next year's Hugos.
 

kswiston

Member
Finished King Solomon's Gold (Book 6 of the Baroque Cycle) today. I will probably take another break before tackling the last two.

The hardest thing about a Hugo read through is staying on track. You hit a book like Dune, and rather than go on to the next book, you find yourself reading the entire Dune saga. At this rate I'll be done by next year's Hugos.

The negative WOM surrounding the expanded series had me skipping the rest of the Dune books, even though I liked the first.

Looks like I have read 11 of the Hugo winners to date. Some are excellent. Some like Redshirts aren't all that special.
 

Piecake

Member
`

I am currently about a 1/3rd of the way though this and so far it is excellent. It takes the Opium War and shows how that event has shaped the West's understanding of China, especially Imperial China, and China's conception of its own history and its relationship with the West. As for the war itself, So far, the book is taking a very careful and nuanced approach to the war, which I definitely appreciate. It is not Britain evil China good or an British apologist rag. It tries to really explain how things happened.

For example, it was during the period surrounding the Opium Wars that the West's opinion of China changed to a vast, homogenuous, insular and static despotic state. Basically, the sick man of the East. China's rejection of free-trade was deemed archaic and backward, its insistence on pomp and ritual affronted British honor because it put Britain in a subordinate position, its destruction of private property was also an affront to British honor, and because of all these things Britain was justified in imposing their will on the Chinese state through military force.

In short, the British wanted everything in China to be exactly as they liked. While the Qing state, not surprisngly, disagreed.

The problem with that conception of the Qing state is that it is quite untrue, and I think that conception of Imperial China, and possibly even China today has stuck with us.

Perhaps even British detractors would have changed their minds, if they had taken the trouble to look at a map, or study a little history. Far from a community turned in on itself, Qing China was a vast, multi-ethnic jigsaw of lands and peoples. British opinion- and policy-makers of the 1830s made the mistake of &#8211; or deliberately deceived themselves into &#8211; simplifying the territory they called China into a complacent unity: an obstinate duelling partner from whom satisfaction must be extracted. It was nothing of the sort. This was an empire that could not even agree upon a single word for itself &#8211; changing shape and name according to whichever dynastic house happened to have acquired it.

Before the nineteenth-century closing of the Western mind on China, a visitor touring the palaces of the Qing dynasty would have found it hard to fathom the self-identity of its ruling house.
The rest of this paragraph goes on to talk about various structures and buildings owned by the imperial family and its wide range of styles and influences, from Chinese, Manchu, European, to Tibetan, etc.

The story of the Qing is of a great colonial enterprise, in which a Manchurian conquest minority somehow kept in check for over two and a half centuries a great patchwork of other ethnic groups: Chinese, Mongolians, Tibetans.

In old age, Qianlong styled himself the &#8216;Old Man of the Ten Utter Victories&#8217;, generating some 1,500 poems and essays commemorating his wars, to be scratched (in the several languages incorporated into the Qing conquest &#8211; Chinese, Manchu, Mongol, Arabi, Uighur) onto hundreds of monumental war memorials littered across the empire.

In 1670, therefore, the warlike Kangxi emperor had reinvented himself as a hearth-and-home Confucian, indoctrinating his millions of new subjects in the philosopher&#8217;s submissive virtues of obedience, loyalty, thrift and hard work.

When it came to governing the peoples of Inner Asia, Qing rulers reinvented themselves, in turn, as the descendants of Genghis Khan, as patrons of Tibetan Lamaism, as secretive earthly mediators with the Buddhist spirit guide of the dead &#8211; all in the interests of wielding spiritual (and therefore political) power over Tibet and Mongolia. Qianlong advertised himself not only as the Confucian Son of Heaven and the Khan of Khans, but also as the messianic &#8216;wheel-turning king&#8217; (cakravartin) of Tibetan Buddhist scripture, whose virtuous conquests were rolling the world on towards salvation..

Does this really sound like an insular, homogeneous kingdom to anyone?

As for the famous Macartney Embassy:

But Qianlong wanted little to do with George III&#8217;s demands for free-trading rights in China and for a permanent British embassy in Beijing. &#8216;We have never valued ingenious articles, nor do we have the slightest need of your country&#8217;s manufactures&#8217;, Qianlong explained in his official response to the British king &#8211; a communication that has subsequently become shorthand for Qing China&#8217;s delusions of supremacy over the rest of the globe.14 China, Macartney concluded, was &#8216;an old crazy first rate man-of-war&#8217; fated to be &#8216;dashed to pieces on the shore&#8217;.15 Macartney&#8217;s failure &#8211; disseminated soon after his return in the published diary of his travels, and in the peevish travel memoirs of his entourage &#8211; edged British public opinion on China closer towards the shorter-tempered nineteenth-century vision of an arrogant, ritual-obsessed empire that had to be blasted &#8216;with a couple of frigates&#8217; into the modern, civilized world of free trade.16

Again, however, the Qing world would probably not have recognized itself in Britain&#8217;s caricature. Far from self-sufficient, Qing China was fully &#8211; vulnerably &#8211; dependent on international commerce to bring in the essentials of existence: rice, pepper, sugar, copper and wood from south-east Asia, Taiwan, Japan and Korea; and New World silver to pay its taxes, and therefore government and armies.17 Early nineteenth-century European travellers around China&#8217;s fringes reported the population&#8217;s eagerness for trade and for foreign goods &#8211; wool, opium, even Bible tracts. Neither did Chinese merchants wait passively for useful items to come their way from abroad. Instead, China&#8217;s booming population spilled across the seas in search of business and labouring opportunities (boatbuilding, sawmilling, mining, pawnbroking, hauling), mostly in south-east Asia, Ceylon or Africa; a handful (of barbers, scholars, Christian converts) straggled out as far as France, Italy, Portugal, Mexico. Only a state of emergency would persuade the authorities to shut down maritime trade. During the war to recover Taiwan from Ming loyalists in 1661, Kangxi shifted coastal populations twenty miles inland, to starve out the island; the ban was promptly rescinded in 1684, once the breakaway regime had been ousted. A 1740 Dutch massacre in Batavia of more than 10,000 Chinese residents did not offer sufficient cause to ban trade &#8211; and neither, for long, did the outbreak of the Opium War.

So if the British simply wanted to trade, Qianlong pointed out in his reply to George III, they already could do so, down at Canton &#8211; which many of them quite contentedly were doing.

It was true, nonetheless, that the Qing state was far more devoted to regulating the European than it was the Asian junk trade. And a discontented British minority concluded from the limits imposed on them a general principle of Qing xenophobia. More careful consideration of the matter would have revealed a political design behind the entire scheme. European sailors of the two centuries before Macartney&#8217;s arrival had not been on their best behaviour when approaching the Chinese coast. The Portuguese, the first Europeans to make a concerted effort to penetrate mainland China under the Ming dynasty, had barged undiplomatically up to Canton &#8211; building a fort, buying Chinese children, trading at will. The first British merchant to introduce himself memorably to the Chinese authorities was one Captain John Weddell who, in 1637, similarly forced his way up to Canton aspiring to &#8216;do all the spoils . . . [he] could unto the Chinois.&#8217;20

While deliberating on how to handle the Macartney embassy, the Qing court pondered accounts of the British absorption of India. &#8216;Among the western ocean states, England ranks foremost in strength&#8217;, Qianlong secretly communicated to his Grand Minister. &#8216;It is said that the English have robbed and exploited the merchant ships of the other western ocean states so that the foreigners along the western ocean are terrified of their brutality.&#8217;21 The British, the emperor observed, were ever-ready to take advantage of slack military discipline on the coast. The accuracy of Qianlong&#8217;s assessment of British ambitions in Asia would be borne out by the events of 1839&#8211;42 and beyond.

I think this paragraph is really interested. It gives clear evidence that the Qing court knew what Britain was doing in India, knew that they were subjugating it through force and robbing them of wealth. Their experience with other European merchants did not put them in a good light either, so is it any surprise that China regulated the trade? That they were far more regulated than the Asian trade (which was basically free-trade)? They were legitimately concerned about their security and were obviously keyed into what Britain was doing at the time and keyed into foreign affairs. Hardly the mark of a insular, arrogant and dismissive country. They wanted to regulate and keep tabs on the British for their own security based on their actions in the pacific and their relations with them as merchants and diplomats.

I think this next paragraph will explain why the Qianlong Emperor made that famous remark:

Qianlong&#8217;s lofty public denial of interest in ingenious foreign articles (belied by his French, Tibetan and Mongol residences, by his profusion of exquisite European &#8216;spheres, orreries, clocks and musical automatons&#8217; that, Macartney noted, made the British gifts &#8216;shrink from the comparison&#8217;) is perhaps best understood as part of a careful strategy of imperialist control. The emperor was informing a potential rival of his determination to define and monitor his empire&#8217;s need for ideas and objects.23 His rhetoric suggests an insular overconfidence in his empire&#8217;s possessions and achievements. His contrasting actions &#8211; his collections of exotic artefacts and religions, his expansionist campaigns &#8211; reveal an aggressive interest in the outside world.

The Qing appetite for foreign languages, objects and ideas grew directly out of the preoccupation with security that nineteenth-century European accounts read as xenophobia. Emperors made excellent diplomatic use of their own cosmopolitanism: &#8216;when the rota of Mongols, Muslims and Tibetans come every year to the capital for audience,&#8217; proclaimed the sexalingual Qianlong emperor, &#8216;I use their own languages and do not rely on an interpreter . . . to conquer them by kindness.&#8217;24 They used Manchu to correspond secretly with distant officers in the field, outside Chinese lines of communication. Well aware of the political uses of multilingualism, the Qing did its best to prevent non-resident Europeans from acquiring Chinese and Manchu, and therefore the means to communicate independently with the native population:

So, Qianlong was basically speaking tough, acting powerful and the like, but people easily accepted this at face-value, even though mounds of evidence spoke to the contrary, because it fit the new view of China, a view that would allow Britain to 'legitimately' make war on China.

n short, the British made an error of judgement in assessing their first, influential encounter with high Qing diplomacy in 1793, allowing the ceremonial facade of the tribute system to obscure the pragmatic reality of Qing foreign policy. According to the tributary ideal, no ruler of China ever needed to lift a finger against its neighbours as &#8211; mesmerized by the glitter of Confucian civilization &#8211; all would voluntarily prostrate themselves before the Son of Heaven. The great military enterprises of the Qing dynasty tell a different story: this was an ambitious conquest backed by all available technical or political means &#8211; Central Asian, Confucian, Tibetan, European &#8211; of securing the resulting empire. As a result, by the start of the nineteenth century, it becomes remarkably difficult to define what European observers so confidently called China. What we have instead is a cross-bred state, held together by coercive cosmopolitanism: by a sense of unbounded entitlement to rule and control, justified by the Confucian Mandate of Heaven, the Manchu Way, Tibetan spirituality and European firepower. The great Qing emperors tried to be all things to all their people: great conquerors, preaching the superiority of their ethnic heritage; learned Confucian poets, scholars, receivers of tributaries; Buddhist messiahs. While the foundation stones of the empire &#8211; the economy and the army &#8211; were prospering, success seems to have kept this multi-ethnic balancing act in place. But once these same things sank into decline at the close of the eighteenth century, the whole edifice of empire began to shake.

I know I said that the China also uses the Opium Wars to define its history and its relationship with the West, but I think I will wait on that since this post is getting mighty long and I am sure the book will talk about that in more detail later.

I just really found it fascinating that our whole conception of Imperial China changed because of this quite justifiable trade policy by the QIng. Suddenly, they were backwards, archaic and static instead of fascinating, sophisticated, etc (which is what we thought of China in the Enlightenment), and that negative view just kinda snowballed due to the Opium War, China's serious troubles in the 19th century, and its military weakness. And I think that conception of China, at least its Imperial history (or at the very least the Qing dynasty), has stuck with us today.
 

Mumei

Member
I'm still reading Shakespeare's Sonnets, and also picked up Maya Angelou's And Still I Rise. I also started reading my copy of A Tale for the Time Being by Ruth Ozeki. I'm about a quarter into it, and am enjoying it. Poor Nao.

Looks like I have read 11 of the Hugo winners to date. Some are excellent. Some like Redshirts aren't all that special.

What years? I just checked and I've read the winners for 1961, 1962, 1963, 1966, 1970, 1975, 1986, 1987, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993 (1), 1995, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, and 2009.
 

Nuke Soda

Member
I'm taking the Patrick Rothfuss approach to this trilogy: I have the second and third already done, but it'll take seven years for me to release them.

Hopefully the second has some pep to it, if it stays at the magic school too long I might lose interest and read something better. ;)
 

Necrovex

Member
I'm still reading Shakespeare's Sonnets, and also picked up Maya Angelou's And Still I Rise. I also started reading my copy of A Tale for the Time Being by Ruth Ozeki. I'm about a quarter into it, and am enjoying it. Poor Nao.



What years? I just checked and I've read the winners for 1961, 1962, 1963, 1966, 1970, 1975, 1986, 1987, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993 (1), 1995, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, and 2009.

A Tale for a Time Being is a stellar book. I had no idea it was shortlisted for the Man Brooker prize for 2013. And yeah, Nao gets wrecked hard, and it only gets better.
 
Out of curiosity, has anyone read any of the books from the "The Women in Science Fiction Bundle" at StoryBundle.com? I'm curious if it's worth the $15 purchase. I haven't bought a bundle there in ages, maybe back in October, when they had a NaNoWriMo bundle.
 
125236_ice.jpg


"All of this was happening, but with a quality of the unreal; it was reality happening in quite a different way."

Highly illusory, bleak novel about a more or less schizophrenic man's recurring searches for a traumatized woman set in the backdrop of impending icy global apocalypse. If that sounds up your alley, check it out. If you're a normal person, you might want to check it out regardless. It's a short read.
 

TTG

Member
I think I'll finish Augustus tonight. How is everyone doing with that? Julia's voice is my favorite so far(end of Book II so maybe don't read further if you're extraordinarily sensitive), it's outstanding. The framing works seamlessly, I enjoy seeing familiar narrators that are ancillary at best to history weave in and out of important scenes. The pacing works well. Even though years go by quickly, years in which we don't see Augustus governing much at all, I suspect he was right to omit stuff. I say this because when Williams was writing a more comprehensive chronicle at the end of Book 1, I felt he got into a rhythm of this happened and then this happened and then Octavius would shine his piercing gaze at some one displaying rich and deep emotion and then this happened and also that. Book II is so much better in those terms and Julia anchors all of it.

EDIT: Done. What a beauty.
 

Cade

Member
Help I'm juggling like six books now that The Last Policeman came in. I think I might put a hold on The Shining since it isn't going anywhere and focus on Policeman, but I dunno. Shining is gripping me.
 
Finished "Prince of Thorns" last night and immediately went to the computer and put "King of Thorns" on hold. I really, really, really, really wish that the world building was a little faster because it was literally the halfway point where I noticed that I wasn't grumbling anymore. The book reminds me of "The Dark Tower" in a certain way, and it intrigues me to know more about the Builders and what happened to have made the world change as much.

In a semi-unrelated note, why is it in the dystopian future North is still North? I mean, we know that poles change (we're going through one right now) so when the maps are set down in the books, you can still kind of see where things are. "Dust" for example. It would be interesting to see a map that is sorta fmailiar but you can't place why. but then - as my wife told me when I asked her the question - it's not like the rotation/orientation of the Earth changes when the poles do, so why would the maps change? Ah well.

Next up is "Blue Moon Rising" by Simon R Green. Got it from an inter-library loan and apparently I can only renew it once and since I was never emailed that it was in at the library, when I picked it up yesterday it turns out it's due on the 14th.
 
Finished "Prince of Thorns" last night and immediately went to the computer and put "King of Thorns" on hold. I really, really, really, really wish that the world building was a little faster because it was literally the halfway point where I noticed that I wasn't grumbling anymore. The book reminds me of "The Dark Tower" in a certain way, and it intrigues me to know more about the Builders and what happened to have made the world change as much.

I felt the same after Prince of Thorns. But I assure you the next two books are so much better.
 
Just finished Clash Of Kings and oh boy what a great book! Its clear how much Martins writing has improved since the first one. Ive actually already started a reread using the GAF reread thread as a guide which is fun. (2 chapters a day i think which is manageable)
After The Stand and IT this is the biggest novel ive ever finished so a wee bit proud of myself :)

I have a massive backlog of books to get through so im putting the next part of Ice and Fire on hold for a bit to get through some of them.

Next up: Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy
 

Number45

Member
I'm nearing the end of a marathon Song of Ice & Fire session. I'd only read the first two (a few years back - stopped due to character hatred) but I'm now two thirds of the way through Dragons.

Really glad I persevered through my hatred - man has a gift for making me forgive.
 
I have all the books and I could rush through them the way i did with the tv show. But ive elected to take it slow with these ones. Yeah ive heard that SOS is fantastic and iam looking forward to it. Just gonna get a couple of other books im excited about under my belt before i tackle it.
 
D

Deleted member 125677

Unconfirmed Member
Just received delivery confirmation on A little Life, the People in the Trees and Nabokov's Pale Fire.

These threads are manipulating me
 
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