Support NeoGAF

[RedZaraki]

I'm going to do some over-simplified, complete guesswork math:

Optimistic:
Average Team Size = 100
Average Team Salary = $40,000
Number Years of Development = 3
Total Expenses = $12M
Sales Needed to Break Even = ~200,000

Realistic:
Average Team Size = 200
Average Team Salary = $50,000
Number Years of Development = 4
Total Expenses = $40M
Sales Needed to Break Even = ~670,000

Pessimistic:
Average Team Size = 300
Average Team Salary = $60,000
Number Years of Development = 5
Total Expenses = $90M
Sales Needed to Break Even = ~1,500,000

There's tons of things I'm not accounting for sure. Like manufacturing and distribution costs, technology costs, building and utility fees, licensing fees etc.
Granted, I think this game will sell millions of copies from hype alone.

 

[Cidd]

The Dawn trailer would be a lot more emotional if it was Noctis's mom that was hugging him.

We know nothing about her.

 

[Koozek]

I'm going to do some over-simplified, complete guesswork math:

<b>Optimistic:</b>
Average Team Size = 100
Average Team Salary = $40,000
Number Years of Development = 3
Total Expenses = $12M
Sales Needed to Break Even = ~200,000

<b>Realistic:</b>
Average Team Size = 200
Average Team Salary = $50,000
Number Years of Development = 4
Total Expenses = $40M
Sales Needed to Break Even = ~670,000

<b>Pessimistic:</b>
Average Team Size = 300
Average Team Salary = $60,000
Number Years of Development = 5
Total Expenses = $90M
Sales Needed to Break Even = ~1,500,000

There's tons of things I'm not accounting for sure.
Granted, I think this game will sell millions of copies from hype alone.

Uh, did you count 60$ per copy?^^ Look at this for a rough breakdown:

 

[RedZaraki]

If Publisher + Developer get ~45% then you would need to double my Sales to Break Even.

 

[rayman1900]

Uh, did you count 60$ per copy?^^ Look at this for a rough breakdown:

So, in case of a digital 60$ release, the retailer would be in fact Steam or PSN ?

 

[Kagari]

I find it amazing that the last thing we saw on magic was...almost one year ago.

Yeah... I'm pretty bummed it missed the demo.

 

[DeSolos]

So, in case of a digital 60$ release, the retailer would be in fact Steam or PSN ?

Don't know about PSN, but Steam takes a 30% cut.

 

[YankeeDonB]

The Dawn trailer would be a lot more emotional if it was Noctis's mom that was hugging him.

We know nothing about her.

No way! It's 2015 and dads can be just as attached to their children (and vice versa) as mothers.

As a dad, Dawn gave me genuine feels. I get that it didn't do that for lots of folks, but it hit its target w/ me, as an actual dad w/ kids close to that age.

 

[KupoNut]

Between 2006 and 2009 basically nothing besides CGI and concepts was being worked on for Versus:
Former Square employee: early preproduction on Final Fantasy XV had only 2 CG artists

Actual development of Versus XIII only started in 2010 until mid-2012 when it was rebooted for next-gen only (before that in 2011 it was cross-gen for a while). However, until mid-2013 they only worked on the pre-rendered "prototype" seen in the E3 trailer.

For FFXV they obviously had to scrap most of the assets (besides some of the CGI and some of the attack animations if you watch the Versus 2011 trailer). That little reusage of assets and story concepts doesn't matter much when you're making a technically ambitious game for current-gen from ground-up. That's like saying FFVIIR will be easy because "they already have all the characters, story and music!!!". Even the borrowed concepts and story of Versus are being changed anyway, so it's basically like making a new game in the end. Forget about Versus. FFXV started ~2 years ago.

Wish more people realized this. For me FFXV is 2 years old, not 9. It's a bitter pill to let go, but that's the truth. All things considered, Tabata has done a great job until now to lead this big FFXV team, while also being very open to address some delicate problems such as the shifts in story from Versus to XV.

 

[DeSolos]

The Dawn trailer would be a lot more emotional if it was Noctis's mom that was hugging him.

We know nothing about her.

Watch Lion King.

 

[Cidd]

No way! It's 2015 and dads can be just as attached to their children (and vice versa) as mothers.

As a dad, Dawn gave me genuine feels. I get that it didn't do that for lots of folks, but it hit its target w/ me, as an actual dad w/ kids close to that age.

Watch Lion King.

What I meant was I assume his mom has passed away so seeing her with him would have been a very emotional scene.

 

[Koozek]

Wish more people realized this. For me FFXV is 2 years old, not 9. It's a bitter pill to let go, but that's the truth. All things considered, Tabata has done a great job until now to lead this big FFXV team, while also being very open to address some delicate problems such as the shifts in story from Versus to XV.

You know, to be quite honest I don't even miss Versus' gameplay. I've never been that excited about the floaty, weight-less KH battle-system.
What intrigued me was the concept, the premise, the art-style, and those elements are mostly still intact in FFXV.

 

[TheGreatDirector]

The Dawn trailer would be a lot more emotional if it was Noctis's mom that was hugging him.

We know nothing about her.

She's the crystal.

 

[YankeeDonB]

What I meant was I assume his mom has passed away so seeing her with him would have been a very emotional scene.

Ah gotcha! Agreed. Given that they're planning to give insight into the characters' past/flashbacks throughout the game, I wonder if we'll see her....

 

[.JayZii]

What I meant was I assume his mom has passed away so seeing her with him would have been a very emotional scene.

We've already seen his mom, but it wold be a spoiler to reveal it.

 

[Sanpunkan]

You know, to be quite honest I don't even miss Versus' gameplay. I've never been that excited about the floaty, weight-less KH battle-system.
What intrigued me was the concept, the premise, the art-style, and those elements are mostly still intact in FFXV.

I agree 100%. Was always interested in the game's premise but the thought of a long RPG with boring KH combat terrified me. I know I'm in the minority but I don't find KH's combat fun at all. Still kind of worried about the combat, I can't imagine Duscae-style battles for the length a 40-hour RPG.

 

[Nairume]

Wish more people realized this. For me FFXV is 2 years old, not 9. It's a bitter pill to let go, but that's the truth.

It's the truth, but i still think it'd be silly to ignore that SquareEnix themselves built the narrative that it was all just one continuous project.

Even with all the behind the scenes footage, they were the ones that decided that the FFXV reveal initially be presented as vsXIII. They made that bed, and I don't really think it's that unreasonable to get mad at people mocking them for taking a decade to make this game.

 

[tuxfool]

Don't know about PSN, but Steam takes a 30% cut.

They all take 30%. The difference is that steam does not require licensing fees on top of that.

 

[DeSolos]

Square responded to my question about the car driving on the right:

 

[MogCakes]

I agree 100%. Was always interested in the game's premise but the thought of a long RPG with boring KH combat terrified me. I know I'm in the minority but I don't find KH's combat fun at all. Still kind of worried about the combat, I can't imagine Duscae-style battles for the length a 40-hour RPG.

Things got very manageable and quick for me once I learned the secret art of holding down L1 and tapping square repeatedly.

I auto-dodged and countered attacks while being mobbed 8 to 1 with that. You always end up taking one or two hits from sheer unpredictability, but that button combo will carry you through every fight in the demo and even Behemoth.

 

[artsi]

I'm going to do some over-simplified, complete guesswork math:

Optimistic:
Average Team Size = 100
Average Team Salary = $40,000
Number Years of Development = 3
Total Expenses = $12M
Sales Needed to Break Even = ~200,000

Realistic:
Average Team Size = 200
Average Team Salary = $50,000
Number Years of Development = 4
Total Expenses = $40M
Sales Needed to Break Even = ~670,000

Pessimistic:
Average Team Size = 300
Average Team Salary = $60,000
Number Years of Development = 5
Total Expenses = $90M
Sales Needed to Break Even = ~1,500,000

There's tons of things I'm not accounting for sure. Like manufacturing and distribution costs, technology costs, building and utility fees, licensing fees etc.
Granted, I think this game will sell millions of copies from hype alone.

Tabata said in the latest interview that the team has 300 people, but I don't think most grunt developers are paid as much as $60K in Japan.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

I'm going to do some over-simplified, complete guesswork math:

Optimistic:
Average Team Size = 100
Average Team Salary = $40,000
Number Years of Development = 3
Total Expenses = $12M
Sales Needed to Break Even = ~200,000

Realistic:
Average Team Size = 200
Average Team Salary = $50,000
Number Years of Development = 4
Total Expenses = $40M
Sales Needed to Break Even = ~670,000

Pessimistic:
Average Team Size = 300
Average Team Salary = $60,000
Number Years of Development = 5
Total Expenses = $90M
Sales Needed to Break Even = ~1,500,000

There's tons of things I'm not accounting for sure. Like manufacturing and distribution costs, technology costs, building and utility fees, licensing fees etc.
Granted, I think this game will sell millions of copies from hype alone.

-Expenses for all the outsourcing which is included in the 300 team size
+Markettttttiiiiiing to the cost


There are many factors though. Such as the average video game developer salary is lower in Japan, however I hear S-E pays higher than other Japanese pubs.

Many many factors. Would love to hear though a combined budget for Versus+XV and then XV alone.

We probably won't ever get that though. Investors would freak out.

 

[Kagari]

Thinking about the money spent on unused CG alone... D:

 

[artsi]

Square responded to my question about the car driving on the right:

Interesting, good to have clarification.

I kind of understand the change to avoid the "wrong lane" complaining from the majority market, and UK / Japan gamers might already be used to right lane along with GTA and other driving games.

 

[Koozek]

I agree 100%. Was always interested in the game's premise but the thought of a long RPG with boring KH combat terrified me. I know I'm in the minority but I don't find KH's combat fun at all. Still kind of worried about the combat, I can't imagine Duscae-style battles for the length a 40-hour RPG.

Honestly, this is the only thing were even I am negative on for once, too.

A few weeks before Episode Duscae's release and even afterwards when people started streaming it on Twitch I was defending it from critique like "Way too button-mashy", "Too hectic, too many enemies on screen to really know what's going on" or "Lock-on sucks", but then I actually played it myself when 2.0 came out and, well, it really wasn't that fun in the demo.

My issues:
- The large mob sizes don't work for this kind of battle-system
- Camera is still wonky (though understandably at this point of development)
- Hard lock-on by first pressing R1 and then R3 is annoying
- Keeping track of your MP bar isn't easy in the midst of battles with dozens of enemies
- Attacking doesn't feel satisfying because of the lack of good audio-visual feedback and the non-intermediacy of attacking (pressing Attack in quick succession only maintains the attacking-loop, in the same way as holding the button, instead of starting a new slash animation immediately on button press)
- Always forgot about the other members in chaotic battles because I was too busy keeping track of Noctis
- The whole K.O.-status felt cumbersome, especially because using up a potion could be interrupted by enemies all the time and wouldn't automatically restart, so you had to reenter the menu and select it again

Admittedly I haven't played much, maybe 2 hours or so, and of course I'm aware of how much will change in the next 12+ months, so let's wait and see. One of the reasons why I honestly would like to see a sequel is that the best FF battle-systems were in direct sequels, see LR and FFX-2. Maybe get help from Platinum Games for better audio-visual feedback in battles

EDIT: Btw, I'm happy they're not using a turn-based battle-system, but it's obvious they aren't experienced enough in making great action-based battle-systems yet (Type-0 was more of a hybrid like LR, just with full movement and character switches).

 

[Whompa02]

Thankfully for them they seemingly did the cg in-house. Probably didn't cost as much for them to cut and re-edit all this stuff, unless Visual Works functions as a separate entity and asks for separate commission on each visual. Not sure how their studios operate.

 

[Kagari]

Honestly, this is the only thing were even I am negative on for once, too.

A few weeks before Episode Duscae's release and even afterwards when people started streaming it on Twitch I was defending it from critique like "Way too button-mashy", "Too hectic, too many enemies on screen to really know what's going on" or "Lock-on sucks", but then I actually played it myself when 2.0 came out and, well, it really wasn't that fun in the demo.

My issues:
- The large mob sizes don't work for this kind of battle-system
- Camera is still wonky (though understandably at this point of development)
- Hard lock-on by first pressing R1 and then R3 is annoying
- Keeping track of your MP bar isn't easy in the midst of battles with dozens of enemies
- Attacking doesn't feel satisfying because of the lack of good audio-visual feedback and the non-intermediacy of attacking (pressing Attack in quick succession only maintains the attacking-loop, in the same way as holding the button, instead of starting a new slash animation immediately on button press)
- Always forgot about the other members in chaotic battles because I was too busy keeping track of Noctis
- The whole K.O.-status felt cumbersome, especially because using up a potion could be interrupted by enemies all the time and wouldn't automatically restart, so you had to reenter the menu and select it again

Admittedly I haven't played much, maybe 2 hours or so, and of course I'm aware of how much will change in the next 12+ months, so let's wait and see. One of the reasons why I honestly would like to see a sequel is that the best FF battle-systems were in direct sequels, see LR and FFX-2. Maybe get help from Platinum Games for better audio-visual feedback in battles

The issues you brought up are pretty much how I feel about it. 2.0 with the QTEs was even worse.

 

[ConceptX]

Thankfully for them they seemingly did the cg in-house. Probably didn't cost as much for them to cut and re-edit all this stuff, unless Visual Works functions as a separate entity and asks for separate commission on each visual. Not sure how their studios operate.

Visual Works are a subsidiary of Square Enix.

It's likely just waged staff due to them constantly working, though that part is just an assumption.

Though everything has a resource=/=budget cost of course.

 

[Koozek]

Thankfully for them they seemingly did the cg in-house. Probably didn't cost as much for them to cut and re-edit all this stuff, unless Visual Works functions as a separate entity and asks for separate commission on each visual. Not sure how their studios operate.

I recommend following very interesting presentation from Visual Works' General Manager and Chief Creative Director, Kazuyuki Ikumori, from a few months ago:

THE CINEMATIC LEGACY OF SQUARE ENIX | KAZUYUKI IKUMORI

 

[DeSolos]

Interesting, good to have clarification.

I kind of understand the change to avoid the "wrong lane" complaining from the majority market, and UK / Japan gamers might already be used to right lane along with GTA and other driving games.

It has some interesting implications though. Any cutscenes that involved the car will have to be changed. In some cases like in the one at the end of the Duscae demo, the entire direction of the cutscene centered around the fact that the car was built the way it was(Prompto and Gladio flirting with Cidney).

They aren't difficult changes to make, but they aren't trivial enough that you could just press a button to make them just work the other way. They will need to be reworked if not redone.

https://youtu.be/dFTNfD5DDB0

 

[NoctisVsStar]

The issues you brought up are pretty much how I feel about it. 2.0 with the QTEs was even worse.

The problem with the QTE is that you're invisible you can practically run to the gold thingy ( forgot the name cross attack is it? ) and cannot get hit by enemies unless you drop the "combo"

 

[Crossing Eden]

Thankfully for them they seemingly did the cg in-house. Probably didn't cost as much for them to cut and re-edit all this stuff, unless Visual Works functions as a separate entity and asks for separate commission on each visual. Not sure how their studios operate.

CGI, whether it's in-house or not, is really expensive, probably even more so for Square since they always had top of the line CG. It's really odd for them to even be using CGI this time around when they could just as easily pre-render the way more complex scenes using assets from the game instead.

 

[Kagari]

The problem with the QTE is that you're invisible you can practically run to the gold thingy ( forgot the name cross attack is it? ) and cannot get hit by enemies unless you drop the "combo"

Not only that but it's very clunky and the UI for it is downright ugly.

 

[Dark_castle]

Large sized mobs should be some of the most exciting enemies to fight in an ARPG. Tabata somehow make it the worst in the demo. Terrible camera, little audiovisual feedback to attacks, bullet sponge with stupid high hp and defense, no destructible body part, no monster climbing, etc.

 

[Koozek]

Another interesting interview with great answers from Tabata that really mirror my view on the series and the need to reinvigorate itself radically to survive for another 30 years:

Final Fantasy XV: how you make a very new game in a very old series

"If we don't get new fans into the Final Fantasy franchise, it will shrink and shrink as the years go on." [...] "certainly, in recent years, getting new fans is something we haven't done very well; we really haven't achieved that"

"To explain how I'm going about trying to get new people into 15, very simply: I'm trying to go back to the roots of Final Fantasy."

"There's not actually a great deal of people who have been following Final Fantasy all the way from 7 [the first 3D FF game, and its first mainstream hit]", he explains. "They're there, but there aren't that many of them. Really, I feel a big need to make 15 a game you can play and enjoy even if you haven't played any of the other games. That's a big part of what I think the game should be."

"Recently," says Tabata, "it's maybe been a bit stylised, very niche, hard to get into. I want to move away from that and get these kinds of universal, unchanging themes that resonate with everyone."

"You look at all the elements of Final Fantasy that make up its identity over the generations, and obviously many of those are very useful, meaningful things. But there are some that have been used many times which may be turning off new people. We've really got to go through and ask 'are they necessary?' and be proactive about cutting out the ones that stop people coming into the franchise."

"In a way, the old style of development - where you don't show your game to anyone and you develop for four or five years, all in-house - that's not a very modern way of doing it. You look at western studios today and they're getting feedback, getting people to play the game at every stage of development - it's such a normal thing to them. I'm thinking that, yeah, in terms of what's modern and what works, you really have to look at that."

"For good or for bad, we have to have that 'XV' on the logo. It has a lot of history behind it, which is both an advantage and a disadvantage. In some ways, it's very easy for me to go back to the series' roots, because I only joined Final Fantasy from working on 15, so I don't really know what went before. My image of what the Final Fantasy numbered games should be is that they should have the top technology available, and use that to make the absolute best game experience. It's a very simple concept. That's how I view Final Fantasy."
---

EDIT: I think Tabata's view perfectly fits Nomura's recent remarks about the series and how to strive for better in regards to FFVIIR:

&#8212; There&#8217;s a lot of parts that are being altered. But have there not been any opposing voices to changing things from the original?

Nomura: There certainly are some staff who put too much of a focus on the &#8216;VII-ness&#8217; and are resistant to changing it. But that FFVII-ness isn&#8217;t something you can easily point to and say &#8216;that&#8217;s it!&#8217; about, and it means different things for different people. I&#8217;ve got a lot of attachment to VII myself. But those &#8220;feelings&#8221; and being &#8220;trapped&#8221; by the FF of the past are two separate things. If you make up your mind, &#8220;&#8216;FF is like this,&#8221; then you can&#8217;t make FF.

&#8212; I see. What do you think the requirements for a FF creator are, Mr. Nomura?

Nomura: I think that love for FF alone isn&#8217;t enough to make FF. Someone who isn&#8217;t satisfied with FF can make it. A creator has to be someone who wants to change FF, to surpass it. Kitase and myself, all the staff from back then rewrote FF in that way. And with this remake too, we&#8217;re naturally going into it with that same mettle. The next time we will be able to bring you info about this game will be in the winter and beyond that, but I promise that we will show you something surprising that breaks away from the concept of FF that we&#8217;ve seen so far.&#12288;
---

I really hope this bold but necessary mentality works out with FFXV and FFVIIR. I don't want this series to die and be relegated to nostalgia-only niche. There is no other series with this kind of imaginative, unique art-style and crazy budget at the same time. It's one of the last Japanese bastions of gaming. Only big franchise I still love left next to Zelda, now that MGS is dead :/

 

[Kagari]

They tried to get new people with 13.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Meh, that's just the generic answer that every Final Fantasy director or producer always gives when asked "What is FF to you?" or "how do you make an FF game?", etc. Sakaguchi, Kitase, Kawazu, Tanaka, Yoshida, Nomura all gave variations of this answer in interviews throughout the years.

 

[The Emperor]

They tried to get new people with 13.

Wasn't it just the X-2 team?

 

[Koozek]

They tried to get new people with 13.

Yeah, with the most obtuse, convoluted lore of any FF so far and a schizophrenic marketing campaign. "Getting new players" clearly was an order from the upper management/PR only at that point of time and couldn't have possibly be achieved by people like Kitase and Toriyama who were way too deep in their own shit after decades of working on the same series and now found themselves in middle of the evidently horrible transition to HD development.

SE needed fresh blood who can bring in a new way of thinking and approaching development, like Yoshida and hopefully now Tabata, to "revive" the franchise.

 

[Cidd]

They tried to get new people with 13.

You would think they've learned from that disaster but hey this is Squareenix...

 

[threelights]

They tried to get new people with 13.

They also tried to get new people with 7.


I would honestly be surprised if they didn't try with all the other titles in the series too.

 

[Ran rp]

She's the crystal.

she's stella

 

[YankeeDonB]

They also tried to get new people with 7.


I would honestly be surprised if they didn't try with all the other titles in the series too.

Yes, exactly. Just because they more or less failed w/ XIII where they were trying (ham-handedly) to reach out to newcomers, and more or less succeeded w/ XIV where it was designed to play off of series vets' nostalgia, that doesn't erase the history of the franchise, which is built on disruption.

There are a lot of things I like about XIV, but the day each new single player entry is just a play-it-safe theme-park replay of the series' greatest hits is the day I finally lose interest.

 

[DeSolos]

she's stella

She's Leviathan.

 

[threelights]

Yes, exactly. Just because they more or less failed w/ XIII where they were trying (ham-handedly) to reach out to newcomers, and more or less succeeded w/ XIV where it was designed to play off of series vets' nostalgia, that doesn't erase the history of the franchise, which is built on disruption.

There are a lot of things I like about XIV, but the day each new single player entry is just a play-it-safe theme-park replay of the series' greatest hits is the day I finally lose interest.

I mean, the entire concept of having every game being wildly different from its predecessors in itself means they are trying to bring in new people with each new entry.

The last thing FF should be is pandering to a core fanbase.

 

[Death Penalty]

They also tried to get new people with 7.


I would honestly be surprised if they didn't try with all the other titles in the series too.

I think she has a valid point though, in that Final Fantasy has already proven its capability to appeal to millions and be best in its class. That appeal was not originally earned by being anything BUT Final Fantasy and it may be the best path to follow that vision rather than the vision of broader appeal if they want to reign king again.

 

[Falk]

she's stella

Man, thanks for scaring me. I saw the pokerface and thought I'd mistakenly (while drunk or asleep or something) broken my self-promise to not post in FFXV threads.


edit: god damnit i just posted in an FFXV thread.

 

[BumRush]

Dawn trailer did nothing for me on an emotional level. It was just a few scenes stiched together with one long scene at the end with little context to pull in the viewer.

The last "emotional" trailer SE put out for this game was in 2013.

From reading all of your responses I feel like GAF's biggest FF fan isn't excited at all for XV

 

[NoctisVsStar]

From reading all of your responses I feel like GAF's biggest FF fan isn't excited at all for XV

Lack of Lord Nomura hits hard man.

 

[Northeastmonk]

I'm hoping that there's a bit more than what we've seen. I'm hoping there's a change in the saving/leveling feature, more enemies on the field, notorious monsters or special creatures, and etc. The footage shown was nice. It's like reliving FF because you're seeing monsters that bring you close to the series. However I'm an old FF fan. I'm sure they can bring new fans to the series, but I'm pretty strict on what they might be actually doing.

Driving in the right lane is a pretty good feature. It's an obvious choice if you live in the US and it's also one I've taken seriously when walking somewhere. A lot of players might have that same exact instinct.