I like Mad Max but the way people feel about it is the way I feel about the Raid. The matrix came out and changed the action game and raised the bar. Then the Raid came out in 2011 and raised the bar again and ushered in this new wave were seeing in violent rated R actions movies. The Raid brought back everything I love in action movies and pushed it up a notch. But I understand I am alone in this. People here either hate Mad Max or really love it. I am in the middle.
Movies that "elevate" their genre, ala Mad Max
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Really spot on I gotta say, I definitely need to buy the Max blu-ray and rewatch I will concede
So you've not answered the question or suggested a better alternative, good contribution. Are you just in here to shit on Mad Max? I'd say an action film using so many practical effects these days and having a pure reliance on visuals over dialogue / story is a step forward for the action genre.
Monocle
Member
I tend to think it's that people either understand Mad Max, or they hate it. People who say it doesn't have a story or good characters excuse themselves from the conversation right out of the gate, because that's demonstrably false and the only way you could really believe that is by missing what the film is presenting to you.
Great! Read a few reviews or some of the more detailed posts in the other thread if you want. There's a lot of layers and moving parts in the movie that are really worth tracking. In particular, Max and Furiosa's evolving alliance is mostly played out wordlessly during action scenes.
The Raid clearly set up the bar for action/martial art movie... I watch these kind of movie for about 20 years, this was the first time i didn't had that nostalgic love of an old movie. I always compare every action scene to one of the raid scene, shooting and hand to hand/weapon combat. Still no movie reach that level of greatness...
Interesting. Would you say this book, The New Wave, would be a good read for an aspiring filmmaker/screenwriter?
Sci/Fi - Metropolis/2001/STALKER
Drama - Fanny and Alexander
Adventure - Aguirre: The Wrath of God/Barry Lyndon
Biopic - The Passion of Joan of Arc/Andrei Rublev
Political Satire - Duck Soup
Horror - Psycho
Rom/Com - The Apartment
The Western - A Fistful of Dollars/The Searchers/The Treasure of the Sierra Madre/
Film Noir/Neo Noir - Sunset Boulevard
The Epic - Lawrence of Arabia
And yet none of these are action movies.
Action - Raiders of the Lost Ark
Violence Jack
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Sci-Fi: The Matrix, Blade Runner, Aliens
Anime: Akira, Spirited Away, Perfect Blue
Action: Rambo, Predator, Casino Royale
Horror: Alien, Rosemary's Baby, Bay of Blood, The Exorcist, Scream, Jaws, Evil Dead, Psycho
Drama: Pulp Fiction, Shawshank Redemption, The Green Mile
Comedy: The Jerk, Caddyshack, Ghostbusters, Clueless
Anime: Akira, Spirited Away, Perfect Blue
Action: Rambo, Predator, Casino Royale
Horror: Alien, Rosemary's Baby, Bay of Blood, The Exorcist, Scream, Jaws, Evil Dead, Psycho
Drama: Pulp Fiction, Shawshank Redemption, The Green Mile
Comedy: The Jerk, Caddyshack, Ghostbusters, Clueless
Lack of extensive on the nose exposition does not equal mindless plot. It's a simple story with surprising depth for an action movie if you look for it. On a technical level it blows away pretty much any in the genre since The Matrix.
This is one of those times where I think you are confusing personal feeling for consensus feelings. The consensus of its greatness is pretty much universal. For instance I might not personally like 2001(not true but just as an example) but I can't deny its affect on its genre.
I grew up in the Terminator,predator and aliens era and Mad Max is easily the greatest action film I've ever seen.
This is most definitely true, but let a man dissent. It's not that I don't like Mad Max, I just find all of the greatest action film of all time talk to be a bit hyperbolic.
Depends on your interests. It's Monaco examining the filmography and history of Godard, Truffaut, Chabrol, Rohmer, and Rivette. I wouldn't recommend it as an introduction to the French New Wave since its focus is specific to these five, and not really anything else. I'd say you should read about the French New Wave and see some films from each of these guys before getting this book. I've seen a few films from each of them, and I feel like I'm missing out quite a bit when Monaco covers a film I haven't seen.
Oh man, that's awesome you missed of action films out of all that xD
You do know every time someone makes a movie this happens automatically right? I don't see how acknowledging a new classic is so difficult. It's not destroying the old gods, it's being raised and compared among them, and if you actually watch the film, you'll see the history of film in the production, from the camera techniques to the marrying of effects. Dredd is another, which wastes even less of your time and has not a single flaw in it's makeup.
I corrected my mistake.
I've watched it. I think the visuals are up there with the best ever, but elevating is something else altogether. Dredd is not even a top 100 action film in my estimation and certainly not better than The Raid which came out the same year.
I've watched it. I think the visuals are up there with the best ever, but elevating is something else altogether. Dredd is not even a top 100 action film in my estimation and certainly not better than The Raid which came out the same year.
I don't disagree but I think The Matrix is a better movie
Also, there are a ton of others that deserve to be mentioned more but since many of them have already been listed, I'll say Avengers elevated the comicbook superhero movie gene. Come at me, haters.
I think it certainly checks the boxes to be in that conversation. Which to me makes proclamations not really hyperbolic. Just like people that say Aliens, Terminator 2, The Matrix or Raiders of the Lost Ark is the best ever.
Im starting to think the hyperbole is on your end here lol. Dredd is another great action film but I would love to see that list where you fit 100 action films above it. Would be interesting.
Drunken Master 2 says fuck you!
Though yeah, The Raid is now a landmark martial arts series
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
What people call "good characterization" in Mad Max is largely quite shallow, and not particularly well-wrought, much of the time, from Nux's unbelievable about-face to Furiosa's generic "bastard seeking redemption" arc to Max being an almost complete cipher. I appreciate that what characterization is there is conveyed visually and hope future directors capitalize on that, but nobody in the film is remotely human or relatable, the feminist angle is trite, the dialogue is simply bad, etc. The film works as an entertaining roller coaster ride, but I think there's a lot of imbuement going on when people say the characters and narrative have depth.
Yep, people are still trying to aspire to LorR's quality today.
IP Man also has high marks.
but from a purely action point of view The Raid movies shit on everything from great height.
Man I hate you I was trying to think of a better word for what I was saying and 'imbuement' just so perfectly encapsulates what I was trying to suggest
enigmatic_alex44
Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
Winter Soldier elevated comic book films, with an Oscar worthy portrayal of Captain America by respected actor Chris Evans. No joke.
True Savior
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I really like Road Warrior but it didnt elevate the genre. That title is hold by Yojimbo. Therefore the title doesnt make sense.
Help.
Help.
Messofanego
Banned
I need to rewatch It Follows for those criticisms (got the blu ray!) but can you just refresh me on what the logic problem is? You must be right on this to have made the criticism. I'll add another criticism that the acting for the other characters is a bit flat, serviceable but not noteworthy.
I believe you'll find the same criticisms of logic and character actions in the best horror films like Exorcist, Rosemary's Baby, The Thing, The Shining, Nosferatu if you analysed them. They personally don't detract from the overall impression I have of it standing out amongst horror movies from the last decade, and the lasting impression I got is that it's neverending which is highlighted with the
very late title card
Dredd does everything the Raid does better with a better story, writing, and cast. Raid is just martial arts, which is awesome, but it's not put together like Dredd. Dredd's soundtrack is also perfect, and there isn't a wasted scene. Along with a strong female bad guy, and another strong female sidekick who saves the main character, I don't see how Dredd doesn't make your list.
You should watch the movie again, if that's what you think her character is.
Monocle
Member
When so many viewers and critics independently come to the same conclusion about a movie's qualities, that says something. I strongly disagree with most of what you said, and if anything, your characterization of Furiosa's arc as generic and the feminist angle as trite indicates some projection on your part, and not a little misplaced cynicism.
How much do you typically expect from an action film? How much more did Fury Road deliver? To handwave the plot and characters and talk about what a good roller coaster ride it is cheapens the film's superb craft.
But if the bar is action movies here, which is what most people are keeping in mind when speaking on the films character depth, it's hard to say it isn't one of the better examples of it in the genre when compared to its competition in the upper echelon of action films. I mean it's not like Aliens, Predator, The Matrix, Raiders of the Lost Ark or Die Hard were stalwarts of characterization and depth. But I dont hear the people shitting on Mad Max shitting on those consensus all time greats that had even less character depth. Same goes for story depth.
To me it comes across as an uneven distribution of criticism. And tends to be the default criticism in spite of the fact that the counter examples of vastly superior films are often deficient in many of those same areas, if not more so.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
In terms of artistic elevation, "Once Upon a Time in the West" elevates the Western genre far above its pulpy roots.
"Alien" elevates the horror genre by virtue of strong characterization, aesthetic accomplishment, and evocative creature design.
Edit: Of those, Aliens and Raiders are the only movies I'd give dap to.
"Alien" elevates the horror genre by virtue of strong characterization, aesthetic accomplishment, and evocative creature design.
Edit: Of those, Aliens and Raiders are the only movies I'd give dap to.
If we just judge Dredd on its action it's still rather unimpressive. The choreography and gunplay are lifeless, uninspired, and flat especially in comparison to The Raid, which is an action film in the truest sense of the word. Dredd's plot is quite forgettable with the villain being this kind of campy, trite, trope filled character whose most noteworthy aspect is her gender, but that gender does very little to enrich her character other than on a rather superficial level and in giving the viewer just a tiny bit of context into her otherwise callous motivations. John Wick has better action is more streamlined in terms of not wasting a single line or frame. And I don't even think John Wick is all that great, just a really solid entry into the fray of action films.
Sounds like you're the one doing the imbuing.
LegendofJoe
Member
I haven't seen Mad Max yet, I'm planning on renting it this weekend. But the last great action movie I saw was Casino Royale, and that came out 9 years ago. So if this is the 1st legitimately great action movie since Casino then yeah I'd agree it elevated the genre.
I must have watched a different movie the other day, because this is nothing at all what Dredd is. The whole point of the plot is that it is a forgettable day, for Dredd. That's literally the setup, which is why it's funny the Raid was almost a carbon copy setup, which was made after Dredd. And Ma-Ma's character is arc is directly tied to how she was treated, and who she surrounds herself with. Other character's relationships to her are only hinted at. Then you try to make raid seem like it's anything more than just fight after fight, which is cool, but that's nothing even approaching Jackie Chan's work in the 80s.
I don't know man. Independence Day is a good rollercoaster ride, but I would easily handwave it's plot and characters....Same with Fifth Element.
No I totally agree about The Raid. Absolutely devoid of much characterization or plot, but the action is wholly superior to the Dredd. The difference doesn't get the action right and also fails at its attempt at constructing an evocative plot. Needless to say this is all just an opinion.
Seriously. List 100 action films better than Dredd.
Monocle
Member
It sort of was though. Isolate any part, and it's guaranteed to be top quality. The practical effects? Yeah. The score? You bet. The prop design? Just look.
And the way they're combined? Barely short of perfection, really.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Imbuing what? I enjoyed the movie because the action was well-done, the design creative, but I found it lacking because the much-vaunted visual characterization hit the glass ceiling of the characters, themselves, not having much to them.
Edit: The Matrix was also much-vaunted by critics and audiences in its day, and it's silly, shallow mediocrity defined. Quality is something that is determined long-term, by what a work has to offer not just to the people it's made specifically for, but to people, in general. Just look at the history of Oscar nominations and awards to see what the in-the-moment esteem of critics and viewers is worth.
pants
Member
I enjoyed it, but saying it elevated the genre is pretty nonsense. Elevate, as the word indicates doesnt mean 'this movie was pretty good' it means 'raised the genre to a level it hasnt been yet'
This and your previous quote sum up my opinion exactly.
I have a lot of free time, but not that much.
Monocle
Member
In your opinion, what is Fury Road lacking that prevents it from elevating its genre?
I'm going to throw out a wild guess that you'll say the movie fails at something it actually does very well.
If you want me to point to something innovative in Fury Road, I'd say the main thing is the reciprocal connection between the action and the characters, where development in one area is always linked to development in the other.
pants
Member
No i said I enjoyed it. Why do you think i'm making a quality argument?
We're basically arguing about semantics here, it's a fine film, how about we just leave it at that...
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