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[PnCIa]

I am german myself and i welcome this move by our government (and me saying something positive about those suckers means something). Obviously cities like Munich are overwhelmed by nearly 14000 new people arriving within one day, so they want to relieve them a little bit.
Another effect is that they up the pressure on Austria which tries to shuttle as many refugees to Germany as possible. If they keep up the border controls the eastern countries will have to take care of refugees longer and may eventually give in to a eu-wide distribution program.

Its funny that our government did this ping-pong thing, but oh boy, it is beyond stupid to just say: come in everyone. It was dumb from the start and just screamed disaster from my pov. At least they are trying to bring in some order here.

Another thing, its funny that the main political association with Germany is Angela Merkel. She is either savior or satan. Our system doesnt give a single person nearly as much power as in the us with the president for example.

 

[Chittagong]

Wasn't merkel saying she welcomed more refugees with open arms just a couple of weeks ago? Surely they must have had some idea how many would be coming in. To do such a dramatic about face this soon afterwards is crazy

1. Push for joint border control
2. Push for centralised immigrant policy, removing power from national governments
3. Face massive opposition
4. Announce Germany will take everyone
5. Mobilise millions to cross EU on an exodus to Germany
6. Shut borders, leaving the surrounding countries in chaos
7. Joint border control, immigration quotas and joint military sounds pretty good now, right?

 

[Shiggy]

Read some article about refugees in Austria being angry now about not being able to go to Germany due to the closed border. While it's understandable if they already have family members in Germany, I wonder whether the situation in Austria is that bad for them? If I fled from Syria, I'd be happy to be anywhere in Western or Central Europe.


It's a lose-lose situation for everyone. Refugees losing their homes, European countries being unable to cope with that amount of people coming in, and European taxpayers paying for all of that.

 

[Nivash]

Is the UN not already involved with this? Surely the numbers being talked about are unsustainable in terms of full asylum granting. Shouldn't countries be looking more at temporary shelter and repatriation once things settle down? Even if that takes a year or more. With this volume of people I don't think they are all directly under threat from imprisonment or torture etc, they are literally just displaced by the fighting

The most shocking thing is how badly developed nations are reacting to this - especially a so called community of European countries.

The Syrian Civil War is not going to be over in a year or two, it will keep raging for at least another 5-6 years and it might not even stop after that - there's a real risk at this point that Syria will devolve into a situation similar to Somalia, with perpetual fighting between warlords. This can happen no matter who wins and is all but guaranteed to happen if no one wins. There are just too many factions, too much devastation. The Syria that was is gone forever. Even if Assad or ISIS would secure a complete victory Syria won't be inhabitable, their respective rule would be barbaric.

At this point Syria is in a total civil war. Everyone is at risk. A lot of the people fleeing are young men because the factions are either pressing them into service or they're left with no choice because the economy is gone, so the options for those staying are to starve or fight. A lot of the rest have been tortured. Almost everyone has lost friends or family.

But yes, the global response has been shameful. Despite how flawed the EU response has been it's leagues better than a lot of other nations.

No you're not, you're grandstanding on the internet and, given you are most likely not a 1%er, are trying to enforce others to give much more than you.

I specifically chose "wealthy" to refer to myself because the poster I responded to pointed out that as a doctor I'm privileged (well will be privileged, I don't graduate until next spring). I essentially said that I'm prepared to be taxed another 10 % or more myself if that's what it takes.

Yep, that's your problem. You have a deeply idealistic view on the world. It's actually kinda romantic and in a pefect world a good goal to achieve. But as with communism it only works on paper and fails miserable once applied to reality. It only serves the ego of those advertising it. "But my intentions were so noble". Yes, but by applying them to the real world you made it worse for everyone involved.

If we don't even try to make the world a better place it will never become one. In the end it still comes down to a choice either way: letting people die to not risk the downsides or doing something and risk them. The only choice I can make is the latter, if you want to take the former that's your right. Just acknowledge the consequences. A lot of people in favor of that choice seem adamant in refusing to do so.

 

[Red Arremer]

Let's see how refugee friendly Austria will be when they can't just put them on trains to Germany.

I can tell you how refugee friendly Austria is, already at the moment where the Austrian authorities CAN put people onto trains to Germany:
Not at all. They want to get rid of them all. The few refugee camps we have here are extremely barebones, and most of the towns are heavily protesting about refugee camps being erected in their place. Bureaucracy and the government fumbling over its own feet additionally make it extremely difficult for charitable citizens and NGOs to help the refugees as well.

Maybe they will start doing their job and protect their boarders too.

You can expect Austria to close its borders within the next few weeks.

 

[Endorphineforeverybody]

Austria is closing them already, with "military" support

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Which the country for the first time ever in national polls is leaning towards.

Is it? Any links? I remember one from earlier this year pointing to 'Remain' winning. Has it changed since then?

 

[ClosingADoor]

I specifically chose "wealthy" to refer to myself because the poster I responded to pointed out that as a doctor I'm privileged (well will be privileged, I don't graduate until next spring). I essentially said that I'm prepared to be taxed another 10 % or more myself if that's what it takes.

See, that's easy to say if you don't have a family to feed or other responsibilities. Not that I know your life, but a lot of people suddenly see it different when they actually start paying taxes.

That said, a 10% increase on 'the wealthy' is not even close to the amount of money needed to handle these numbers if it keeps up. That's a symbolic gesture, nothing more.

 

[Red Arremer]

I wonder whether the situation in Austria is that bad for them?

The situation in Austria is absolutely rubbish.
The refugees are held in tent camps with barely, if any, electricity, heating (very fun now that it's starting to get cooler, and wind and rain start becoming more common) and barebones sanitation. They are treated to the worst possible bureaucracy despite not being able to speak German. And anybody who does want to help is basically prohibited from doing so because there's an insane amount of disorganization to the point as to where nobody knows who is responsible for what, and there's no proper contacts for help to get where it needs to be.

 

[Chittagong]

The Syrian Civil War is not going to be over in a year or two

It's worth noting that the current exodus to Europe is not primarily Syrian, in fact they are quite a small minority. Albania, Eritrea, Afganistan, Iraq are major contributors. Smugglers will teach people to claim they are Syrian of course. This is not to say that the people in those countries are not needing asylum, or that Syria isn't a mess, but just that the media narrative of the current influx being driven by Syria isn't exactly right.

 

[spekkeh]

I don't graduate until next spring

Sorry I know you mean well, but this is too stereotypical. Come back next spring. Or better, a few years later once you have a mortgage and kids and new dreams than simply graduating, based on your salary before you want to impose the extra 10%. Go say you don't want the best for your kids then. Or maybe you should quit your study and give the doctor position to a new immigrant, as will happen with a lot of people that are not priviliged, see how well you'll do with no job as a result of your idealism. Because this is what you want for those Swedes.

(I want that too but I don't pretend to be a socialist)

 

[timetokill]

Has Nivash donated his paycheck and taken in room capacity numbers of refugees into his home yet? I can tell that guy is definitely not all talk, and will do everything to hell these people. Because these are human lives at stake and no sacrifice is too much.

Unfortunately he'll have to post and tell us about it from a public library because he'll have cancelled his internet subscription and sold his smartphone to save refugee kids. There's no way he'll keep those things knowing he could save another life. Those are luxuries. We're talking about human life here.

edit: oh god he's still in school, I should've known with that kind of bright eyed naïveté

 

[Nivash]

It's worth noting that the current exodus to Europe is not primarily Syrian, in fact they are quite a small minority. Albania, Eritrea, Afganistan, Iraq are major contributors. Smugglers will teach people to claim they are Syrian of course. This is not to say that the people in those countries are not needing asylum, or that Syria isn't a mess, but just that the media narrative of the current influx being driven by Syria isn't exactly right.

That's based on statistics from previous years, it's changing. Syrian refugees were the largest group by far in 2014 for the EU as a whole and they're growing.

Here is a very recent graph from Sweden showing the 5 largest countries of origins of refugees for the last three weeks.

From left to right the bars represent Syrian, Afghani, Iraqi, stateless and Eritrean refugees. This is not meant to be completely representative of the EU as a whole but I can't find any recent statistics from the EU, so this will have to do. The present crisis is clearly driven by the millions of refugees fleeing Syria.

Sorry I know you mean well, but this is too stereotypical. Come back next spring. Or better, a few years later once you have a mortgage and kids and new dreams than simply graduating, based on your salary before you want to impose the extra 10%. Go say you don't want the best for your kids then. Or maybe you should quit your study and give the doctor position to a new immigrant, as will happen with a lot of people that are not priviliged, see how well you'll do with no job as a result of your idealism. Because this is what you want for those Swedes.

(I want that too but I don't pretend to be a socialist)

So you're arguing that parents are prepared to let thousands of people die for a slightly better material standard for their kids? That certainly explains a lot about the world if it's true. It's not right though.

Has Nivash donated his paycheck and taken in room capacity numbers of refugees into his home yet? I can tell that guy is definitely not all talk, and will do everything to hell these people. Because these are human lives at stake and no sacrifice is too much.

Unfortunately he'll have to post and tell us about it from a public library because he'll have cancelled his internet subscription and sold his smartphone to save refugee kids. There's no way he'll keep those things knowing he could save another life. Those are luxuries. We're talking about human life here.

edit: oh god he's still in school, I should've known with that kind of bright eyed naïveté

What's with people making this moronic argument? Taking in refugees is not equal to giving away everything we own, it's a modest cost to the region as a whole. Again: EU, population 500,000,000, largest economy on Earth; asked to take in a few hundred thousand refugees.

It's like asking someone who thinks we should lower carbon emissions over time to avoid catastrophic climate change to move out in the woods and live like a caveman, or telling someone who thinks that organ donations should be opt-out rather than opt-in to donate all their organs right now and kill themselves if they think it's such an important issue. I'm sure there's a name for this fallacy.

 

[Doczu]

You can expect Austria to close its borders within the next few weeks.

I give it a few days. Tops.

 

[Red Arremer]

I give it a few days. Tops.

Probably, yes. I was accounting for general government fumbling, but when it comes to this kinda thing (i.e. keeping people out), I guess a few days is a more accurate prediction.

 

[ClosingADoor]

So you're arguing that parents are prepared to let thousands of people die for a slightly better material standard for their kids? That certainly explains a lot about the world if it's true. It's not right though.

Why are you constantly returning to "let them die"? Nobody is saying that. It is not as black and white as "take everyone in" or "let them die."

The current way this situation is handled, is actually letting more people die. We drive them in the hands of human traffickers and let them come to Europe on tiny boats that sink every day.

That stuff needs to be prevented. So give support in the region, set up camps there with shelter, food and medicine. Then take the numbers the EU can process and bring them here in a safe way. Then you can also provide help for the women, kids and elderly that are unable to make the trip now. Preferably, other countries will chip in and do the same.

 

[TheAutomator]

So you're arguing that parents are prepared to let thousands of people die for a slightly better material standard for their kids? That certainly explains a lot about the world if it's true. It's not right though.

Yep. Sad, depressing world we live in.

 

[Nivash]

Why are you constantly returning to "let them die"? Nobody is saying that. It is not as black and white as "take everyone in" or "let them die."

The current way this situation is handled, is actually letting more people die. We drive them in the hands of human traffickers and let them come to Europe on tiny boats that sink every day.

That stuff needs to be prevented. So give support in the region, set up camps there with shelter, food and medicine. Then take the numbers the EU can process and bring them here in a safe way.

But that's precisely what I'm arguing. Universal policy, ability to set up ways for refuges in UN camps in the region to apply for asylum, EU responsibility for bringing them here: a solution that leads to the EU as a whole taking responsibility. Maybe then the rest of the world will do too, we will at least have much more leverage in pressuring them in doing so. I'm pretty sure that was the first post I made in this thread.

But people here are arguing that we shouldn't even help the one's already in Europe and that we're "full" so we should close the borders. That is what would kill thousands of people because Turkey and Lebanon can't handle millions of refugees on their own - doing that will result in people still trying to get here illegally anyway, and at that point we would basically have to kill them to keep them away, either directly or by returning them to Syria.

That's not a solution. We need to accept that the EU has to take in refugees. A lot of refugees. And we must do so together, with a common policy and a unified approach.

 

[Mendrox]

Sorry but I wouldnt take any refugees in at my fuvking home which I work hard for. People already cry because of bad school systems... you think they mind people that they dont have any connection to dieing? There are way to many egoistic people - people that got fucked up in life and where nobody helped them. As soon as bad things start happening here in Germany (except for theft which is already happening here in Hamburg) people will start hating...which leads to more bad things. Austria doesnt give a shit and wants them just to go, many German people didnt want them at all and hate the current situation because nothing had been planned and we, the folks, have to help them now in our free time. It is just a really bad situation which will explode.

Edit: Just to clarify I volunteered to to help them with the basic things like food and everything in halls, but it is too much already.

 

[spekkeh]

So you're arguing that parents are prepared to let thousands of people die for a slightly better material standard for their kids? That certainly explains a lot about the world if it's true. It's not right though.

Yes millions are dying from malaria while you are putting your money into your education instead of vaccines. This is how the world works. It's not just, what a book a devil's chaplain might write etc. But that's the way it is. You try to minimize the suffering within the means that it doesn't impact yourself too much. And minimizing suffering might actually mean not letting countries empty into other countries. I'm starting to wonder how you ever made it to university if you only just found this out frankly.

 

[MisterFalcon]

But that's precisely what I'm arguing. Universal policy, ability to set up ways for refuges in UN camps in the region to apply for asylum, EU responsibility for bringing them here: a solution that leads to the EU as a whole taking responsibility. Maybe then the rest of the world will do too, we will at least have much more leverage in pressuring them in doing so. I'm pretty sure that was the first post I made in this thread.

But people here are arguing that we shouldn't even help the one's already in Europe and that we're "full" so we should close the borders. That is what would kill thousands of people because Turkey and Lebanon can't handle millions of refugees on their own - doing that will result in people still trying to get here illegally anyway, and at that point we would basically have to kill them to keep them away, either directly or by returning them to Syria.

That's not a solution. We need to accept that the EU has to take in refugees. A lot of refugees. And we must do so together, with a common policy and a unified approach.

Those 800,000 refugees will pay at least 5 billion dollar to smugglers to come to the West, more then the entire budget of the UNHCR.

 

[pmj]

I apologize for dragging your education and future job into this, Nivash.

I don't doubt your personal commitment to helping out, but any hit to a country's economy will always be felt the most by the bottom strata of society, and a very unlikely large tax hike for the rich won't change that. We have the smallest margins, and it's our jobs that are on the chopping block.

I think this is something that needs to be kept in mind when talking about how much we can afford to do something or other.

 

[KingSnake]

I like how this turned into a "let's personally attack the one user that shows some empathy, that would teach him for having trust in humanity".

 

[Nivash]

Yes millions are dying from malaria while you are putting your money into your education instead of vaccines. This is how the world works. It's not just, what a book a devil's chaplain might write etc. But that's the way it is. You try to minimize the suffering within the means that it doesn't impact yourself too much. And minimizing suffering might actually mean not letting countries empty into other countries. I'm starting to wonder how you ever made it to university if you only just found this out frankly.

Har har. Very funny. I'm perfectly aware that most people don't give a damn about people dying in Africa and that it's not possible to save the entire world, it's just surprising to see people openly suggest that they're willing to let other people die just to avoid even the smallest risk that their children might not be as rich as possible.

A unified EU response to the refugee crisis would not be the end of the world for heaven's sake, it perfectly fits your definition of "minimizing suffering while limiting impact to yourself". The only reason it's gotten as bad as it has at all is because of the fractured EU response combined with the open intra-EU borders of the Schengen treaty. The current situation is not sustainable, it will break the Union if it's allowed to continue. But the solution isn't to close the borders to all refugees either, especially not in the middle of a massive refugee crisis where millions have already fled to Turkey and Lebanon.

 

[Doczu]

I like how this turned into a "let's personally attack the one user that shows some empathy, that would teach him for having trust in humanity".

Sad to see how many users are attacked for trying to shout out a rational voice about this whole situation. You guys aren't better calling everyone murderers for not letting everyone in.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

The EU should just be rolled back and reformed to follow more pragmatic and democratic principles. There is no culture of Europe wide solidarity and union. It can't be imposed on the people simply by shame or idealism. Europe, especially Germany, completely failed to show empathy for Greece so why should empathy trigger a "unified yet rational response" here.

 

[TheAutomator]

I like how this turned into a "let's personally attack the one user that shows some empathy, that would teach him to have trust in humanity".

Yep. I'm seeing a lot of arguments here that are completely exaggerating and distorting what one has said, as well as dragging personal stuff into the mess. I hope xenophobia is not a factor to this disgraceful behaviour.

 

[KingSnake]

Sad to see how many users are attacked for trying to shout out a rational voice about this whole situation. You guys aren't better calling everyone murderers for not letting everyone in.

You have several hundred thousand people in Europe at this point. Fine, you close all the borders. And then what? There is no barbed wire fence between Austria and Germany or between Austria and Hungary. What if tens of thousands of people try to walk in Germany or Austria? You shoot them? You arrest them? Hungary has a barbed wire fence and didn't manage to stop too many. This is not some kind of a theoretical situation, is a real one. You can make whatever financial estimates or whatever, it doesn't change the situation.

Even if they wouldn't try to go over the border and they would stay where they are, they will live and sleep where? Until when? Until the winter solves the situation?

You just complain and applaud the hardliners, but have no actual solution to the problem at hand.

In the end, yesterday's decision only makes Orban right. Germany's actions are very inconsistent and create big issues for the other countries. Now is Austria's turn.

Edit: only EU acting as an Union can reasonably solve the current crisis. But too many countries being dicks right now makes that quite impossible.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

The EU should just be rolled back and reformed to follow more pragmatic and democratic principles. There is no culture of Europe wide solidarity and union it can't be imposed on the people simply by shame or idealism. Europe, especially Germany, completely failed to show empathy for Greece so why should empathy trigger a "unified yet rational response" here.

I'd be up for that. It's a little scary how some posters are talking: "we'll force them to comply".

 

[params7]

The Syrian Civil War is not going to be over in a year or two, it will keep raging for at least another 5-6 years and it might not even stop after that - there's a real risk at this point that Syria will devolve into a situation similar to Somalia, with perpetual fighting between warlords. This can happen no matter who wins and is all but guaranteed to happen if no one wins. There are just too many factions, too much devastation. The Syria that was is gone forever. Even if Assad or ISIS would secure a complete victory Syria won't be inhabitable, their respective rule would be barbaric.

You should know, the refugee crisis is a relatively recent phenomenon which has come more or less, directly in response to government instability in Syria. Assad is no saint, but there is no doubt the migrant crisis will exponentially increase the more his government is destabilized. As such, I do believe the bolded is nonsense. The best thing the west can do right now is stop fueling the "civil" war.

 

[Nivash]

You should know, the refugee crisis is a relatively recent phenomenon which has come more or less, directly in response to government instability in Syria. Assad is no saint, but there is no doubt the migrant crisis will exponentially increase the more his government is destabilized. As such, I do believe the bolded is nonsense. The best thing the west can do right now is stop fueling the "civil" war.

That was Assad before he fought a civil war. He's spent the war torturing and killing more civilians than even ISIS, there's no reason he would become some kind of moderate after it. There are currrently no less than 27 torture centers active in government controlled Syria. He will go after any semblance of opposition with complete brutality. I'd not be surprised if he ends up trying to pre-empt things by executing a limited genocide first against the areas that are current rebel strongholds, maybe even the Kurds.

Syria under a victorious Assad would be utterly despotic, maybe even a contender to North Korea for worst dictatorship in the world. It won't be a place anyone is going to be willing to return to voluntarily and not a place we could deport them to with any kind of conscience.

As for the West, their involvement at this point is very limited beyond airstrikes on ISIS and not a primary driver for the war. I'm also not sure why you put civil war in question marks, it's not as if the people fighting aren't Syrians.

 

[cripterion]

Absolutely disgusting.

Why's that? Care to elaborate?

 

[Nikodemos]

I'm also not sure why you put civil war in question marks, it's not as if the people fighting aren't Syrians.

Well, a large number of Da'esh aren't. They're a bunch of worthless assholes from all over the world, drawn to the idea of power and sex slaves.

 

[Sinfamy]

Why's that? Care to elaborate?

Armchair economist.

 

[Nivash]

Well, a large number of Da'esh aren't. They're a bunch of worthless assholes from all over the world, drawn to the idea of power and sex slaves.

Well yeah, but they're still a minority and they're a later addition. The civil war had been raging for years before they even turned up. Even the al-Nusra front didn't form until almost a year after the war started.

 

[Doczu]

You have several hundred thousand people in Europe at this point. Fine, you close all the borders. And then what? There is no barbed wire fence between Austria and Germany or between Austria and Hungary. What if tens of thousands of people try to walk in Germany or Austria? You shoot them? You arrest them? Hungary has a barbed wire fence and didn't manage to stop too many. This is not some kind of a theoretical situation, is a real one. You can make whatever financial estimates or whatever, it doesn't change the situation.

Even if they wouldn't try to go over the border and they would stay where they are, they will live and sleep where? Until when? Until the winter solves the situation?

You just complain and applaud the hardliners, but have no actual solution to the problem at hand.

In the end, yesterday's decision only makes Orban right. Germany's actions are very inconsistent and create big issues for the other countries. Now is Austria's turn.

Edit: only EU acting as an Union can reasonably solve the current crisis. But too many countries being dicks right now makes that quite impossible.

And why do we have several hundred thousand people in Europe right now, with thousands coming in daily, paying smugglers for it and some of them dying during the process? Thank Merkel for saying that everyone is welcome. It was highly irrational of her, and now you have countries that start closing their borders.

Hungary's ETA of the fence is tomorrow, with extra laws that allow aprehending, imprisoning and forcefully deporting immigrants if they won't cooperate and get registered (which they don't want to, for obvious reasons). The Czech think about doing the same.

Poland's PM is swaying the same way, only because there tens of thousands people who got out to the streets this weekend and say "no", with more saying and thinking the same, but not stating it openly for fear of being socially shunned and ostracized.

You shun and ridicule not only the hardliners, but also the more or less rational people but also offer no solution for taking them in. When will you say enough? When the next wave comes? Or the one after that? Or will you deny the right for taking in families and essentially quadrupling the amount of refugees? Cause that would make you a fascist monster, wouldn't it? Giving them hope was the worst thing possible, because it will only backfire.

How will you support these people? Give them freebies for years or the rest of their lives? Because they are NOT going to go back to Africa or the middle east. Artificially create hundreds of thousands job positions just to give them a purpose in life? Cause that is a fucking joke when ~10% of adults are unemployed and most of them because there is no work, and if there is, then surely not for the uneducated masses. And no, 400k refugees in Germany aren't doctors, scholars, engineers. Tax your residents some more? Well that's a stupid idea and one Nivash that will gladly allow to tax him up and down isn't the voice of everyone.

There is no Union in these matters, and the beginning of shutting down borders showed that. It's not "some countries being dicks", because those countries were against it from the start and they are not responsible for the fact that now about 20k refugees in Austria are legit pissed off that they can't get into Germany and more of them in Austria, Greece and Italy.

 

[cripterion]

People keep saying other nations need to do their share. Most of these Refugee's do not want to go elsewhere. They want Germany or Austria. Fuck everywhere else. Keep harping on Eastern Europe that economically outside a few is still in poor shape from decades of Russian oppression.

What???A lot of them end up in France, even those that get accepted in Germany. There's no equal or better social benefits in other EU countries.

 

[Gonzalez]

People keep saying other nations need to do their share. Most of these Refugee's do not want to go elsewhere. They want Germany or Austria. Fuck everywhere else. Keep harping on Eastern Europe that economically outside a few is still in poor shape from decades of Russian oppression.

This is karma for Germany always bragging about their country here on GAF.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=9&v=09vqhZV6jt8

BBC radio call in's. I suspect the media is losing the narrative.

and holy hell, the emotional blackmail the BBC interviewer is using isn't working as well as it used too.

Or as a comment put it "Typical BBC presenter, pushing his own personal point of view and not listening or considering others peoples thoughts and opinions".

Ohh, would you look at that, real public opinion shining through.

They won't make the same mistake twice, back to hermetically sealed establishment soundbites.

 

[params7]

That was Assad before he fought a civil war. He's spent the war torturing and killing more civilians than even ISIS, there's no reason he would become some kind of moderate after it. There are currrently no less than 27 torture centers active in government controlled Syria. He will go after any semblance of opposition with complete brutality. I'd not be surprised if he ends up trying to pre-empt things by executing a limited genocide first against the areas that are current rebel strongholds, maybe even the Kurds.

Syria under a victorious Assad would be utterly despotic, maybe even a contender to North Korea for worst dictatorship in the world. It won't be a place anyone is going to be willing to return to voluntarily and not a place we could deport them to with any kind of conscience.

As for the West, their involvement at this point is very limited beyond airstrikes on ISIS and not a primary driver for the war. I'm also not sure why you put civil war in question marks, it's not as if the people fighting aren't Syrians.

Give ISIS the power and control that Assad has, and things will be much worse off. Assad is brutal against opposition, he will seek to end activism that destabilize his power - but let us at least acknowledge some of his secular ideals and order in governance. Yes he uses the sectarian tensions to his advantage to maintain power, but that still sounds a lot better than forced conversions to the extreme variant of Sunni Islam that is guaranteed under ISIS. There are approximately 18-20 million people still living in Assad controlled regions of Syria. They are more terrified of Al Nusra and ISIS. They will arrive with far more intolerant ideologies than Assad, including rape and genocide.

As for the West's involvement, from what I have read, the U.S. contributed funding, weapons and training to units who are supposedly part of FSA - all of which are ending up in the hands of ISIS. I don't personally see it as a civil war with so much vested foreign interests fueling the anti-government movement by virtue of its definition.

From a perspective of the current migrant crisis - having EU taking in more refugees only treats the symptom. Warfare displaces people, and that is what needs to be controlled in Syria. And I'm sure if a consensus was done in there right now, people would prefer Assad over ISIS to run their government, schools and hospitals.

 

[KingSnake]

And why do we have several hundred thousand people in Europe right now, with thousands coming in daily, paying smugglers for it and some of them dying during the process? Thank Merkel for saying that everyone is welcome. It was highly irrational of her, and now you have countries that start closing their borders.

Hungary's ETA of the fence is tomorrow, with extra laws that allow aprehending, imprisoning and forcefully deporting immigrants if they won't cooperate and get registered (which they don't want to, for obvious reasons). The Czech think about doing the same.

Poland's PM is swaying the same way, only because there tens of thousands people who got out to the streets this weekend and say "no", with more saying and thinking the same, but not stating it openly for fear of being socially shunned and ostracized.

You shun and ridicule not only the hardliners, but also the more or less rational people but also offer no solution for taking them in. When will you say enough? When the next wave comes? Or the one after that? Or will you deny the right for taking in families and essentially quadrupling the amount of refugees? Cause that would make you a fascist monster, wouldn't it? Giving them hope was the worst thing possible, because it will only backfire.

How will you support these people? Give them freebies for years or the rest of their lives? Because they are NOT going to go back to Africa or the middle east. Artificially create hundreds of thousands job positions just to give them a purpose in life? Cause that is a fucking joke when ~10% of adults are unemployed and most of them because there is no work, and if there is, then surely not for the uneducated masses. And no, 400k refugees in Germany aren't doctors, scholars, engineers. Tax your residents some more? Well that's a stupid idea and one Nivash that will gladly allow to tax him up and down isn't the voice of everyone.

There is no Union in these matters, and the beginning of shutting down borders showed that. It's not "some countries being dicks", because those countries were against it from the start and they are not responsible for the fact that now about 20k refugees in Austria are legit pissed off that they can't get into Germany and more of them in Austria, Greece and Italy.

Why there are hundred of thousands of people now in Europe? Because quite the same people that now cry louder ignored when Greece and Italy were complaining that they can't handle the situation. Quite the same people were "let those lazy southerners handle it, we don't care". From the same attitude of "we're a Union when only I can benefit of it" was the stupid Dublin regulation born. The famous naval force that should have stopped the smuggling over the Mediterranean Sea was created only on paper and much too late. This is not a situation that appeared now, it's running since months if not years. This is just the peak.

What you do when the next wave come? I don't know, maybe be prepared? But how when you haven't even solved this wave yet.

If EU is not able to solve a crisis together, there is no real reason for EU. And then the Polish, Czech and Hungarian PMs can rule happily ever after.

Have a common European Fund and general asylum conditions the same for all Europe supported from this Fund. Then you can distribute refugees based on whatever. You don't need to support them for ever. Make it be a limited time (it is anyhow as far as I know). Make language courses and exams. Organize an European Task Force to filter all the asylum seekers.

I actually wrote a lot more text here before submitting the post but then I realized that you actually support all of Orban's policies (inclusive the accepting only Christians one). So I stopped and erased.

 

[pulsemyne]

Ohh, would you look at that, real public opinion shining through.

They won't make the same mistake twice, back to hermetically sealed establishment soundbites.

Ah yes because the real public always phone into talk shows...
Also the establishment and media have been scapegoating immigrants/refuges for years. According to them they are the cause of all societies ills and not tax dodging rich shits. It was laughable to see how quickly they changed their tune when the picture of the kid came out. All of a sudden it was kiss a refugee day. All in the name of trying to win some votes and sell some fucking papers. That was far more disgusting than seeing some people hoping for a better life away from war.

 

[daniels]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=9&v=09vqhZV6jt8

BBC radio call in's. I suspect the media is losing the narrative.

and holy hell, the emotional blackmail the BBC interviewer is using isn't working as well as it used too.

Or as a comment put it "Typical BBC presenter, pushing his own personal point of view and not listening or considering others peoples thoughts and opinions".

Lol complains about the ridiculous emotional blackmail from the media and politicians... gets emotionally blackmailed by the BBC lol you cant make this up.

 

[injurai]

Well he argues that sweden managed immigration "just fine" and that there are no problems.. quite telling.

Are you talking about me? Cause I'm who he was replying to and you couldn't be more off the mark with what I was saying.

I'm saying the problem exists. It's certainly a problem. It's a problem war has displaced these people. It's a problem they have to flee. It's a problem they seek out mass refuge. It's a problem the recipient Nation struggles to deal with their situation. However it's not the recipient Nation's fault in the difficulty to integrate these people. It's a problem that just perpetuates and is immensely difficult to manage. In part because these people never sought out integration, and they came into the country outside of the immigration process.

 

[Lime]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=9&v=09vqhZV6jt8

BBC radio call in's. I suspect the media is losing the narrative.

and holy hell, the emotional blackmail the BBC interviewer is using isn't working as well as it used too.

Or as a comment put it "Typical BBC presenter, pushing his own personal point of view and not listening or considering others peoples thoughts and opinions".

Wow audience eviscerating the host.

It's been a staple of interviewers to present anyone opposing immigration with a binary choice of allowing immigration or killing children. You either agree or are a monster.

It's been happening in this thread as well, only the binary choice is allowing uncontrolled immigration or killing all refugees.

Haha, wow.
Callers had some legitimate concerns, and the host just responds with, "are you a good person? do you think kids should die?"

I love that a caller calls in complaining sky the media engaging in emotional blackmail and the host almost immediately responds with, "by didn't you feel bad about that dead boy on the beach?"

Ohh, would you look at that, real public opinion shining through.

They won't make the same mistake twice, back to hermetically sealed establishment soundbites.

I don't understand all these posts supporting those callers. "Refugees are likely to be rapists and murderers or criminals or terrorists and we have zero space left" is not an opinion worth giving a public platform to. "They could be rapists, terrorists, criminals, wife-beaters, etc." is such a fucking insane worldview. Such an opinion only worsens the situation and by implication it lets refugees who are trying to survive left to starve and die outside of Fortress Europe because of some misguided belief that refugees are evil human beings and that poor old super wealthy countries in Europe will go to ruin and collapse.

I am astounded that posters are thinking that this is a respectable opinion and all the crazy fear-mongering equivalent to Donald Trump's racism by the callers is even remotely true. Fuck that video and the people calling in.

 

[Ovek]

Is it? Any links? I remember one from earlier this year pointing to 'Remain' winning. Has it changed since then?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/21/majority-electorate-vote-uk-leave-eu-poll

It's not a large gap only 2% but it is the first time a national poll has voted yes.

Of course the poll could be a load of rubbish.

 

[El Topo]

Armchair economist.

I assume from your post that you have vast a knowledge about Germany, its social and political landscape, its political history in particular regarding migration policy, its economy, the European migration policy as well as its history and in particular Germany's involvement, German and European foreign policy, general European policy (e.g. of Austria and Hungary), general Middle East policy, as well as state economy theory, not to mention German media?

Why's that? Care to elaborate?

Me and others have pointed out in this very thread why this is a poorly planned, pointless, hypocritical move that doesn't solve the problem.

Are you voting for "Die Linke" or "Die Grünen"?

I honestly fail to see the relevance.

Why there are hundred of thousands of people now in Europe? Because quite the same people that now cry louder ignored when Greece and Italy were complaining that they can't handle the situation.

This entire situation is unsurprising for anyone that's followed Germany and Europe for a longer time. Everyone knew this would inevitably become a problem, yet politics ignored it.

 

[Nivash]

I don't understand all these posts supporting those callers. "Refugees are likely to be rapists and murderers or criminals or terrorists and we have zero space left" is not an opinion worth giving a public platform to. "They could be rapists, terrorists, criminals, wife-beaters, etc." is such a fucking insane worldview. Such an opinion only worsens the situation and by implication it lets refugees who are trying to survive left to starve and die outside of Fortress Europe because of some misguided belief that refugees are evil human beings and that poor old super wealthy countries in Europe will go to ruin and collapse.

I am astounded that posters are thinking that this is a respectable opinion and all the crazy fear-mongering equivalent to Donald Trump's racism by the callers is even remotely true. Fuck that video and the people calling in.

Welcome to European sentiments on refugees, these opinions range from "common but stigmatized" in a few countries to "the norm" in many others. And yes, this should be astounding to people. I'm astounded it's not astounding to everyone. Or at least cause for being taken aback and horrified.

 

[PdotMichael]

I don't understand all these posts supporting those callers. "Refugees are likely to be rapists and murderers or criminals or terrorists and we have zero space left" is not an opinion worth giving a public platform to. "They could be rapists, terrorists, criminals, wife-beaters, etc." is such a fucking insane worldview. Such an opinion only worsens the situation and by implication it lets refugees who are trying to survive left to starve and die outside of Fortress Europe because of some misguided belief that refugees are evil human beings and that poor old super wealthy countries in Europe will go to ruin and collapse.

I am astounded that posters are thinking that this is a respectable opinion and all the crazy fear-mongering equivalent to Donald Trump's racism by the callers is even remotely true. Fuck that video and the people calling in.

Most people juse love having the moral high ground if the problems are several thousand kilometers away.
Now, we can get all the YouTube and Facebook tier comments on GAF. Quite sad.

 

[cripterion]

I assume from your post that you have vast a knowledge about Germany, its social and political landscape, its political history in particular regarding migration policy, its economy, the European migration policy as well as its history and in particular Germany's involvement, German and European foreign policy, general European policy (e.g. of Austria and Hungary), general Middle East policy, as well as state economy theory, not to mention German media?



Me and others have pointed out in this very thread why this is a poorly planned, pointless, hypocritical move that doesn't solve the problem.



I honestly fail to see the relevance.



This entire situation is unsurprising for anyone that's followed Germany and Europe for a longer time. Everyone knew this would inevitably become a problem, yet politics ignored it.

Hadn't seen your other posts in this thread, sorry. I still fail to see what qualifies as disgusting. It's so easy to shift the blame on Euro countries for not taking in more refugees. I think Germany and other European countries have already taken their fair share of people.
There are people at peril in plenty of other countries and no one gives a fuck cause it's unheard of or it doesn't get the mass media attention.

One country cannot and shouldn't take all the world's misery. Announcing they would accommodate for so many refugees in Germany was a mistake.