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[KnightHart]

There are Quiet spoilers in the video so I guess I'll have to wait till I get far enough in the game to watch

That being said the only thing I can say about Quiet is that everything from her design and direction is silly and stupid. So it fits right in with Metal Gear Solid. So whatever, I'm not going to have a shit-fit over another stupid thing in MGS, nor do I think is it worth the amount of energy it would take to complain

But she also solo's entire outposts for me with a tranq sniper rifle so it's all good

 

[Salaadin]

I am exaggerating, to be sure, but there's some behind the scenes video of Kojima mo-capping the super models in the nude and it being kind of super creepy. More so when you pair it with how meaningless all of them are in MGS4.

Ehh, I see what you're saying but as long as all parties agreed to it, I can't really get behind it being creepy. To a point, it's just work. Though maybe I'm being a little naive here.

And yeah, they're all so meaningless. Such a shame. I actually think they're worse than Quiets design as they literally only serve one purpose. They didn't eve try to flesh(pun not intended) out their back stories.

To the point that sometimes I think the Boss is just some cool coincidence and not an actual crafted cool character

And you'd be wrong.

There's no need to take away the things he did right because he's currently doing things wrong. If anything, we should continue pointing to the Boss as a good example and hope he gets back to that.

 

[Doctor Ironic]

The real joke here is that someobe as smart as Jim Sterling is, believed Kojima in the first place. The body of work is there in his past works and you believe he was being serious? You all just didnt want to see what was plain as day.

At this point, its your own fault if you swallowed Kojimas lines.

The shameful thing about Quiet is that Kojima has had precedent for good female characters in the past even if they did show cleavage occasionally. Metal Gear also has a history of sexualizing men and using homoerotic undertones. There's none of that here, just the game being really creepy about Quiet and sexualizing her even when she's in great pain.

Old Metal Gears feel like a sexy party, this feels like a loner's basement.

 

[Platy]

Ahhh

OK she breathes through her skin, can she swim without drowning? ;o)

If she photosystensis, how she survive at night ?

How did Ninjas survived if they had clothing on their noses ?

Did Kojima never heard of Ninjas ?

Is Kojima being agains't ninjas a reflection of his dislike for Raiden ?

 

[NeonBlack]

Code talker spoilers

Spoiler

doesn't he use photosynthesis as well? But yet isn't walking around all scantily like I wish he would.

 

[Garlador]

While the female soldiers aren't developed characters, the fact they're playable in place of Snake is an important thing. The fact there's diversity among those female soldiers is also important.

This does mean you can occupy 100% of your screen with a badass woman of your choice.

A woman with no backstory, no character arc, no character development, no directly portrayed goals or feelings or emotions or desires of her own...

... Having a woman exist who fulfills a gameplay-related role is no different than having a lamp exist that can light up a room. It's purely perfunctory.

 

[partyphone]

The real joke here is that someobe as smart as Jim Sterling is, believed Kojima in the first place. The body of work is there in his past works and you believe he was being serious? You all just didnt want to see what was plain as day.

At this point, its your own fault if you swallowed Kojimas lines.

it gets a little complicated because saying anything bad about kojima gets you a lot of shit. so while it was obvious how this was all going to play out high profile people like Jim were probably better off waiting for the game to come out before going in.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

In my game shejust sits there. If I wanna look at her ass I go toher cage. Atleast try to pretend thats not ALL she does.

Once you rank up your bond she will start doing stupid poses and stand up in the chopper just so she can bend over and present her ass to you. It's really fucking dumb.

 

[Mesoian]

I disagree, for one, this game is hardly narrative driven, it's quite the opposite now. Second, in what little cinematic moments we do get, she's seen doing more badass shit than anything else. She can look however she wants, because she backs it up in the gameplay where it matters, and even in cutscenes.

The other MGS women like who? Meryl is lame as shit, Sniper Wolf is just as bad, and would be even worse if it was developed on current gen, Rose is one of the most annoying characters in video game history, Naomi has her tits hanging out in a lab coat ffs and Eva is a ok, despite the moments where you are encouraged to peek at her stripping, though she's basically a bond girl. MGS4 in general is just full of garbage female characters, not even worth naming them all.

The only really good female character in this entire series is The Boss, maybe Olga is alright. At least in Quiet's case, she makes a kickass partner, whereas the rest are just stupid.

I was talking more about how other metal gear women use their sexuality with a purpose, by hook or by crook, not by how badass they are. Not everyone has to be badass, but everyone has to have a sense of purpose. Meryl almost constant flirting with snake in MGS1 is designed to use her cornfeed backstory to attempt to wrap him around her finger. Depending on what the player does, this can either succeed, MGS1 wrapping up with a very bond-esque ending or fail resulting in the canon ending.

Wolf uses her sexuality to play Otacon for a fool for the entire game, her basically being the only reason why he works the shadow moses project, other than his misguided sense of scientific adventure. She tries to win over Snake in the same way but fails, resulting in her capturing Meryl and eventually becoming a boss. Hell, even Rose uses her sense of sexuality to keep Raiden in a haze through the grand majority of MGS2 and 4, never allowing her intentions to be known until the end of both respective games because it's easier for her to lead Raiden along if he's pissed off about his own misconceptions.

These women aren't just sexy for the sake of being sexy. They have agency. They have drive. Their purpose isn't just to be in front of a camera all day with the hope that the viewer will be sexually aroused by them. Now there's certainly an argument to be made about the fact that most of these women either attempt or succeed at weaponizing their sexuality against men, and whether or not that's healthy, but that's a way more interesting conversation than "let's justify Quiet's outfit and the fact that the camera isn't shooting her, it's leering at her, mouth agape, tongue hanging out."

Code talker spoilers

Spoiler

doesn't he use photosynthesis as well? But yet isn't walking around all scantily like I wish he would.

Yes...but...it's different than what she has...

Don't try to rationalize it too much, it's never that well explained.

 

[Myggen]

Ahhh

OK she breathes through her skin, can she swim without drowning? ;o)

Spoiler

No, too much water isn't good for her at all.

 

[Mesoian]

In my game shejust sits there. If I wanna look at her ass I go toher cage. Atleast try to pretend thats not ALL she does.

It is all she does. You can either watch her writhe around on the helicopter in various poses as shown in Sterling's video, or you can go to her cell and watch her shower or sunbathe topless.

You keep trying to make this argument that there's more to her when she's on screen. There isn't. That's one of the biggest problems with her. Even when she is

Spoiler

stabbing a man in the face,

the camera is still focused in on her tits.

Spoiler

No, too much water isn't good for her at all.

But the answer to the question of "how much is too much" is extremely variable.

A woman with no backstory, no character arc, no character development, no directly portrayed goals or feelings or emotions or desires of her own...

... Having a woman exist who fulfills a gameplay-related role is no different than having a lamp exist that can light up a room. It's purely perfunctory.

While true, I'm still glad that you can do it.

I don't even play the game as Big Boss anymore, unless I wanna mess around with different hands.

 

[Cleve]

Code talker spoilers

Spoiler

doesn't he use photosynthesis as well? But yet isn't walking around all scantily like I wish he would.

I'll pay extra for

Spoiler

Codetalker in a banana hammock dlc.

Worst part about Quiet for me, is I think she could have been a great character.

 

[Palette Swap]

While the female soldiers aren't developed characters, the fact they're playable in place of Snake is an important thing. The fact there's diversity among those female soldiers is also important.

This does mean you can occupy 100% of your screen with a badass woman of your choice.

I get what you mean, and it's a cool option but in my case, I've been using Snake most of the time. That doesn't really change the point that most characters if you prefer are male and the only female character with a semblance of presence is Quiet.
Again, in a vacuum, this isn't terrible per se, it's just a sum of things.

 

[Famassu]

Nope. I just showed my missus that scene and shes not offended. She said people need to realise its a videogame.

You people are so annoying with your "I asked my wife and we both agree there's no reason to be offended by this cheap titillation" shtick. Try to get it through your thick skulls that very few of us are actually offended by this. And your wife not being "offended" doesn't negate the validity of our criticism, just because she is a woman. If you don't understand why some people have problem with this overt sexualization & objectification of a female character (even if it's "just" a game), then maybe you should try to educate yourself about the subject or not comment on it if your contribution is "lol Y U angry?!"

We just think it's unnecessary, cheapens/worsens a character and is juvenile like some 14 year old got a chance to direct those scenes. There's a place for everything and a good way of making sexual characters/situations. The Witcher 3 has some decent sexual content (it's hardly perfect and some of it isn't any better than Quiet, but some of it is decently handled). There's some cheap titillation there too, but the game doesn't just focus on Triss's & Yennefer's tits & ass 99% of the time or ever put them in porn star poses. They seem like adults having a more or less equal, mature relationship instead of the woman being a silent sex object who bends down in front of the man all the time.

Quiet is simply cheap titillation. Kojima doesn't have some masterplan with what he wants to message with Quiet and how they linger on her tits & ass every chance they get. She's just there to look at in some pornographic poses. There's no well developed romance between her and some other character or at least somewhat reasonably well constructed sex scenes. There's no subtlety. It just hurts the immersion when the one important female character acts more like a porn star ready to do an anal scene than a more or less professional soldier/mercenary.

It being a video game doesn't mean it's free from criticism about how it handles female characters or the larger societal context where women are too often treated as mere sex objects for men to gawk at. Just because she is a fictional virtual character doesn't mean it's completely unproblematic when viewed in the context of how women are portrayed in entertainment.

 

[Prototype]

You may be thinking of Bayonetta, who's designer is a woman.

even if Quiet was designed by a woman, it doesn't make the character design any better

also, you sure you're not thinking about the defense of that Zero Suit Samus alt in Smash Bros?

Let's say it's true; what does it change?

I was wrong. Man I felt like I'm losing my mind lol, I guess that's what happens you you get older.
I may indeed be conflating with Bayonetta.
And ya, it doesn't change much either way . edit.
I was just thinking about what the designer said about creating the character, but now I'm almost positive that I was thinking about Bayonetta.

I'm a dumb dumb.

 

[Reishiki]

I get what you mean, and it's a cool option but in my case, I've been using Snake most of the time. That doesn't really change the point that most characters if you prefer are male and the only female character with a semblance of presence is Quiet.
Again, in a vacuum, this isn't terrible per se, it's just a sum of things.

I get this, but from a representation standpoint, I feel it's important.

 

[Mesoian]

I get this, but from a representation standpoint, I feel it's important.

It is. The option is nice to have.

I was wrong. Man I felt like I'm losing my mind lol, I guess that's what happens you you get older.
I may indeed be conflating with Bayonetta.
And ya, it doesn't change much either way . edit.
I was just thinking about what the designer said about creating the character, but now I'm almost positive that I was thinking about Bayonetta.

I'm a dumb dumb.

Don't worry about it so much.

 

[Karkador]

It really doesn't help that the story is a mess, and pretty obviously unfinished. That they couldn't finish the main story, but still focused on bringing us weird and creepy scene after scene of Quiet (even a fucking torture scene with a pervy camera) is pretty telling of what the priorities were. Even if you want to complete sidestep the sexism in gaming angle, it's pretty difficult to ignore how symptomatic Quiet is of the bad decisions made for MGSV's narrative.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Somewhere Kojima is showing Ono this thread and he think he has Ono topped in trolling. "They actually thought I was another Kojima."

 

[Mesoian]

Somewhere Kojima is showing Ono this thread and he think he has Ono topped in trolling. "They actually thought I was another Kojima."

The difference being Ono has the cuts to cosplay the characters that he wants in the game.

Kojima ain't dressin' up like Quiet any time soon.

 

[sciencerob]

Except she has the best arc in the game.

What? Can you possible be serious? She is a shit character. I didn't even care about her at the conclusion of her arc. And I tend to care about story arcs and characterization in novels/games. She is nothing more than eyecandy.

 

[Mesoian]

What? Can you possible be serious? She is a shit character. I didn't even care about her at the conclusion of her arc. And I tend to care about story arcs and characterization in novels/games. She is nothing more than eyecandy.

He's right though, she does.

MGS5's story is a MESS.

 

[mattp]

somebody i follow on twitter posted this last week
i think it's pretty accurate

Kojima lives in a fantasy world where institutionalized sexism is not real, hence the existence of both awesome & sexist af fem characters

Like, how the fuck else would (early) Meryl exist in the same games as Olga and The Boss

 

[Morrigan Stark]

OMG, that can't be real

If you don't like the game, then don't buy it.

Can we say that about every single post that criticizes a video game?

NeoGAF sure will be a silent wasteland real fast.

(I'm not buying the game, actually. But I'll still criticize it.)

And then the usual obvious dumb wank:

Spoiler

Wow, I had no idea about this. I thought at least Quiet was the only stupid juvenile shit in the game. Good gods, Kojima really has zero respect for female soldiers whatsoever, doesn't he.

 

[Nairume]

That being said the only thing I can say about Quiet is that everything from her design and direction is silly and stupid. So it fits right in with Metal Gear Solid. So whatever, I'm not going to have a shit-fit over another stupid thing in MGS, nor do I think is it worth the amount of energy it would take to complain

Sure, MGS is inherently silly, but Quiet's takes it well beyond that point.

 

[EatinOlives]

So apart from being nearly naked and putting on sexy poses here and there, what's the problem here again? What are we supposed to be angry about?

"So other than the problems with the character, what are the problems with the character???"

None, if you decide to arbitrarily ignore the character's problems for no reason.

 

[Tomeru]

You keep trying to make this argument that there's more to her when she's on screen. There isn't. That's one of the biggest problems with her. Even when she is

Spoiler

stabbing a man in the face,

the camera is still focused in on her tits

So we completely ignore her back story because it sounds stupid? Also, correct me if Im wrong, but you can freely move the camera during cutscenes, no?

 

[DedValve]

There are Quiet spoilers in the video so I guess I'll have to wait till I get far enough in the game to watch

That being said the only thing I can say about Quiet is that everything from her design and direction is silly and stupid. So it fits right in with Metal Gear Solid. So whatever, I'm not going to have a shit-fit over another stupid thing in MGS, nor do I think is it worth the amount of energy it would take to complain

But she also solo's entire outposts for me with a tranq sniper rifle so it's all good

You really should watch the video. The spoilers are only for quiet (and only about why she wears what she wears) and doesn't spoil anything about her arch, missions or relationship with Big Boss and anyone else.

Plus Jim makes a really great point why the bolded is not only insulting Kojima and his work, but its playing down a very serious and very big problem in the industry.

I mean this is the dude that created The Boss for crying out loud. He can and should do better.

 

[Twenty7KVN]

There are Quiet spoilers in the video so I guess I'll have to wait till I get far enough in the game to watch

That being said the only thing I can say about Quiet is that everything from her design and direction is silly and stupid. So it fits right in with Metal Gear Solid. So whatever, I'm not going to have a shit-fit over another stupid thing in MGS, nor do I think is it worth the amount of energy it would take to complain

But she also solo's entire outposts for me with a tranq sniper rifle so it's all good

It's funny that you feel this way without watching the video,Jim touches on this type of attitude quite nicely.

 

[partyphone]

Sure, MGS is inherently silly, but Quiet's takes it well beyond that point.

the best part of that particular complaint is that Jim addresses it directly in the video.

 

[Armaros]

the best part of that particular complaint is that Jim addresses it directly in the video.

Its pretty amazing how Jimquisition threads easily show the "Post in thread without reading/watching the link" effect and how common it is.

 

[Mesoian]

So we completely ignore her back story because it sounds stupid? Also, correct me if Im wrong, but you can freely move the camera during cutscenes, no?

No, we criticize it because the game breaks it's own rules all the time.

Spoiler

She claims that she wears that gear because her parasite causes her to take in oxygen and water through her skin, but other skulls with her parasite also wear clothes, and it's eventually revealed that Code Talker's parasite does the same thing hers does, but he is in multiple layers. The plot also claims that her lungs are completely burned out and the protags use that as evidence against her for trying to kill Big Boss at the beginning, furthering the idea that she can't talk. But she can talk, she just doesn't. And you can't talk if you don't have lungs. Her backstory only matters when the scene calls for it to matter, it is neither consistent, nor important.

. Now keep in mind, that's more of an overall narrative problem than a Quiet problem, but still, the backstory doesn't matter.

And free cam only lets you zoom in even closer. If the native camera is centering in on something, you cannot merely look away, you can only zoom in with greater detail.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

There ain't a goddamn thing wrong with his reasoning here.

#thankgodforjim

#asswithclass

#fuckonami

 

[Tomeru]

And so it comes down to her poses and lack of clothing, since this is all we can judge her with (not speaking and all). Tough deal.

Why is Bayonetta ok (and don't give me the sexuality as a weapon, because she kills with guns, not with her butt)?

Unless Bayonetta is not ok, in which case I will not pursue this anymore (feel free to direct me at the nearest comparison).

 

[Dice//]

And so it comes down to her poses and lack of clothing. Tough deal.

Why is Bayonetta ok (and don't give me the sexuality as a weapon, because she kills with guns, not with her butt)?

Unless Bayonetta is not ok, in which case I will not pursue this anymore (feel free to direct me at the nearest comparison).

Jim Sterling did a good vid for that case too
https://youtu.be/CEfeETiWe5M

 

[Deleted member 126221]

And so it comes down to her poses and lack of clothing. Tough deal.

Why is Bayonetta ok (and don't give me the sexuality as a weapon, because she kills with guns, not with her butt)?

Unless Bayonetta is not ok, in which case I will not pursue this anymore (feel free to direct me at the nearest comparison).

Bayonetta has its share of problems, but at least the character had a personality and will of her own. Quiet is, so far in my playthrough, literally just a silent fuckdoll posing for the camera. It's a bit disturbing.

 

[Princess Carl]

You people are so annoying with your "I asked my wife and we both agree there's no reason to be offended by this cheap titillation" shtick. Try to get it through your thick skulls that very few of us are actually offended by this. And your wife not being "offended" doesn't negate the validity of our criticism, just because she is a woman. If you don't understand why some people have problem with this overt sexualization & objectification of a female character (even if it's "just" a game), then maybe you should try to educate yourself about the subject or not comment on it if your contribution is "lol Y U angry?!"

We just think it's unnecessary, cheapens/worsens a character and is juvenile like some 14 year old got a chance to direct those scenes. There's a place for everything and a good way of making sexual characters/situations. The Witcher 3 has some decent sexual content (it's hardly perfect and some of it isn't any better than Quiet, but some of it is decently handled). There's some cheap titillation there too, but the game doesn't just focus on Triss's & Yennefer's tits & ass 99% of the time or ever put them in porn star poses. They seem like adults having a more or less equal, mature relationship instead of the woman being a silent sex object who bends down in front of the man all the time.

Quiet is simply cheap titillation. Kojima doesn't have some masterplan with what he wants to message with Quiet and how they linger on her tits & ass every chance they get. She's just there to look at in some pornographic poses. There's no well developed romance between her and some other character or at least somewhat reasonably well constructed sex scenes. There's no subtlety. It just hurts the immersion when the one important female character acts more like a porn star ready to do an anal scene than a more or less professional soldier/mercenary.

It being a video game doesn't mean it's free from criticism about how it handles female characters or the larger societal context where women are too often treated as mere sex objects for men to gawk at. Just because she is a fictional virtual character doesn't mean it's completely unproblematic when viewed in the context of how women are portrayed in entertainment.

It's really annoying and most of the time obviously someone lying.

I read the first page and this last one, and that's about all I can stomach. I don't have the patience for that amount of bullshit to sift through.

 

[Mexican Sting]

Jim fucking nailling it as per usual.

I'm tired of hearing about all the tens, I want more dialogue about how bad of a writer Kojima is.

 

[Mesoian]

And so it comes down to her poses and lack of clothing, since this is all we can judge her with (not speaking and all). Tough deal.

Why is Bayonetta ok (and don't give me the sexuality as a weapon, because she kills with guns, not with her butt)?

Unless Bayonetta is not ok, in which case I will not pursue this anymore (feel free to direct me at the nearest comparison).

Spoiler

She does speak

Have you played this?

But why is it okay for Bayonetta? Because her sexuality is part of her urgency. She uses it both as an extension of her personality and as a weapon. She isn't sexy for sexy's sake, her being sexy is just one part of her personality, one that she uses to intimidate other people. She doesn't act sexually aggressive towards Jean or Cereza, she only does it towards beings that she knows she is going to have to bully into position. Bayonetta is an odd example because the narrative lens has both aspects of titillation and player urgency. That's not something that works terribly well in most games (see GOW, Ninja Gaiden 1), but Bayo 1 and 2 pulls it off quite well.

That's not to say EVERYTHING works in Bayonetta. Joy is a problem, The Rodan fights are problems, but for the most part, both in game and in design, Bayonetta works because there's no hamfisted mincing about the fact that Bayonetta is a sexy powerful woman who does things for herself. Her sexuality is as much for the player as it is for herself as most of it is found in her attitude and not in the fact that she's just naked all the time.

 

[NullPointer]

I'm tired of hearing about all the tens...

skullface-playing-fiddle.gif

 

[NinjamicWZ]

I enjoy it. Real talk, beyond her usefulness as a buddy, I wouldn't have cared so much that Quiet

Spoiler

left

if she wasn't a walking pin-up girl "in love with the legend",

Spoiler

leaving an empty, sad void

that D-Dog wagging his tail on the chopper just can't fill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKFx0MMqb48

I deleted my save and restarted my game

Spoiler

just to avoid losing her this time.

Jim can be mad that he was lied to by a liar, and feel like absolutely overt, reasonless titillation is pissing in his otherwise delicious oatmeal, but I'm cool over here. I'm just eating oatmeal with a diabetic amount of sugar all over it.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Code talker spoilers

Spoiler

doesn't he use photosynthesis as well? But yet isn't walking around all scantily like I wish he would.

Yep =/

 

[Mesoian]

I enjoy it. Real talk, beyond her usefulness as a buddy, I wouldn't have cared so much that Quiet

Spoiler

left

if she wasn't a walking pin-up girl "in love with the legend",

Spoiler

leaving an empty, sad void

that D-Dog wagging his tail on the chopper just can't fill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKFx0MMqb48

I deleted my save and restarted my game

Spoiler

just to avoid losing her this time.

Jim can be mad that he was lied to by a liar, and feel like absolutely overt, reasonless titillation is pissing in his otherwise delicious oatmeal, but I'm cool over here. I'm just eating oatmeal with a diabetic amount of sugar all over it.

And that's cool.

 

[JackDT]

The model switched Quiet Shower scene is totally worth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcyygfXIfzE

(Amazing how well the engine handles facial expressions on swapped models!)

 

[cdstephens]

There are Quiet spoilers in the video so I guess I'll have to wait till I get far enough in the game to watch

That being said the only thing I can say about Quiet is that everything from her design and direction is silly and stupid. So it fits right in with Metal Gear Solid. So whatever, I'm not going to have a shit-fit over another stupid thing in MGS, nor do I think is it worth the amount of energy it would take to complain

But she also solo's entire outposts for me with a tranq sniper rifle so it's all good

If you reached the scene where Ocelot explains where her powers come from next to her cell then you're far enough into the game that there's no spoilers.

 

[Nemesis_]

Jim fucking nailling it as per usual.

I'm tired of hearing about all the tens, I want more dialogue about how bad of a writer Kojima is.

This isn't what Jim said lmao

 

[Vlaphor]

If you don't like the game, then don't buy it.

Little heads up here, since I've seen this mentioned a few times in this thread. I didn't say this as a means to silence discussion, or for it to be taken at face value. I said it in reference to someone seemingly asking someone who disagreed with him to stay out of the conversation.

IMO, "If you don't like the game, then don't buy it." only has partial merit, and it has to do with the differing options available to buy. If you want to criticize something, then by all means do so. The ability to share your opinion is your right. Just keep in mind that it is an opinion, and that people with differing opinions are not automatically wrong.

I'm not trying to say "The Truth Is Always Somewhere In The Middle", because that's just avoiding the desire to see right done in order to appease everyone, and that never works. Just don't automatically assume to worst about either side.

 

[Mesoian]

skullface-playing-fiddle.gif

http://i.imgur.com/ONm1UbN.gifv

 

[Xenugears]

They should offer a clothing option for Quiet to appease anyone sensitive about this. Sniper Wolf skin would be perfect for those bothered by skin (even if it makes no sense) at least her ankles would be covered. Personally I had to stop using Quiet, not because of what she's wearing but because her humming annoyed the shit out of me.

 

[SURGEdude]

One of the things that sold me on Quiet being objectified is the fact that the woman she's based on and who did her mo-cap has significantly smaller breasts. Meaning somebody at KojiPro made the intentional choice to upgrade the volume of her chest.

Like Jim said all of this is fine, and artists should have the right to express their characters however they want. But that doesn't mean we can criticize their excuses as flimsy and disingenuous attempts to have their cake and eat it too.