Even weird is to see the camera treat her like a human being since she is doing the Ocelot poses
Jimquisition (September 14th, 2015) - A Quiet Conversation
- Thread starter L~A
- Start date
Even weird is to see the camera treat her like a human being since she is doing the Ocelot poses
Not to mention (as Jim pointed out)
So does The End
And yet he didn't walk around in a speedo
And yet he didn't walk around in a speedo
humansewer
Neo Member
They just forgot to include the line that says "Specifically, she breathes through tiddy skin" which would have made this whole thing make a bit more sense.
It was cut out with the entire last mission of the game.
It was cut out with the entire last mission of the game.
There is one, but you have to get her trust all the way up.
yet she is able to talk with ruined lungs at the end (just chose not to), pretty sure unless she is an alien, she needs lungs to speak
Also
Given Skull Face's own injuries, it seems like they basically implied the same thing about him (that the parasites are working in overdrive to keep his internal organs functioning), and yet he's able to do just fine cosplaying as the Lone Ranger
Also, the wiki does mention that Quiet
can be killed at the end of the sniper duel with her. This presumably removes all subsequent scenes with her.
That's true. But again, I have no idea how that would work...
NinjamicWZ
Banned
Yeah, she has
organs the same way she has skin.
Come to think of it, I'm happy for her as a
recovered burn victim
MrCunningham
Member
http://www.polygon.com/2013/9/4/469...rs-more-erotic-encourage-cosplay-hideo-kojima
I'm not defending Kojima here, but I always thought this was kind of well known.
Just the fact that her pose is a lot better/more serious makes her a lot easier to take seriously as a character and not just see her as fanservice/an object just there for guys to leer at. Hell, I'd rather they stop the camera work and her posing than dress her up. That seems to do a lot more for making her a more realized character and not just an object to leer at.
Just got the rain scene, and I gotta admit that I thought it was a cute moment between her and Snake. I don't really mind that shes almost naked, or that she eye-fucks Big Boss in the chopper while making her little poses.
The only thing I don't like are the constant ass and breast close-ups. It's kind of annoying how the camera seems to zoom up on her lady parts more than anything.
The only thing I don't like are the constant ass and breast close-ups. It's kind of annoying how the camera seems to zoom up on her lady parts more than anything.
Professor Lich
Member
Just a different aside, apologies if something like this was brought up before, but what if Quiet's costumes were unlocked in reverse?
Basically she starts out as a properly dressed sniper/soldier and you then unlock a bikini outfit. Of course all the bending over and camera angles would have to be removed though or it wouldn't make sense, I guess.
I would assume that people would still be upset though since she's a badass character with a good story and it would detract from that. I only bring it up because I'd be curious about the satiation in the reverse but I suppose there wouldn't be much difference.
Basically she starts out as a properly dressed sniper/soldier and you then unlock a bikini outfit. Of course all the bending over and camera angles would have to be removed though or it wouldn't make sense, I guess.
I would assume that people would still be upset though since she's a badass character with a good story and it would detract from that. I only bring it up because I'd be curious about the satiation in the reverse but I suppose there wouldn't be much difference.
I mean, that's kind of what happens.
But I get what you mean, and if it was done in reverse, it would be still be pretty embellic of undermining the character by saying "the penultimate unlockable for this badass that you've come to like and bond with, is seeing her naked."
Though the bloody, silver and gold costumes are both completely shitty too so...whatever I guess.
Mr. Pointy
Member
I think I preferred Quiet when people were speculating she had Octocamo skin.
Professor Lich
Member
Yeah, those are really weird, especially the metals. It just boggles my mind that there's a perfectly great skin in the game that could of been used.
Ah well.
This right here. People have modded the game on PC and ran Ocelot through the same animations and it's amazing how even the most subtle of movements and camera angles are oddly sexual or curve accentuating. A lot of valid arguments can be made about how they are literally objectifying a women who can't speak. Kojima tells us to feel shame over how we feel when we eventually find out what her deal is but his reason for doing this is totally unrelatable. In order for that stupid story to even exist you literally have to come up with a reason to objectify her body first and then write the justification afterwords.
Yabberwocky
Member
Jim remains a gift. I also need a five minute dub-step track of Jim saying nothing but poundin' it on a loop.
About that scene...
The best part about it for me is the thought of Jim actually looking for pictures of naked old men, singling one out, and then running it into photoshop to censor it and then a video processor for the zoom and shrimp and the realization that it is part of his professional portfolio now.
I still think Quiet is fine as she is.
I think there is a certain feeling the game, and by extension Kojima, is trying to impart. Boss looks tired, worn out. The struggle is real. Each mission, coming and going. Every thing from the music of the game, to the sad dejected look nearly everyone wears, the very atmosphere of the game. And this helps to inform of us of the crazy world that we are stepping into when we play the game. A world where this tortured solider lost everything, has fought against literally impossible odds -- superhuman enemies, various mechs and other armed machines, even the people he loved and respected the most. This character has felt wilder emotional arcs then most people will ever come close to experiencing. But as we play Boss, we get a taste of what that would be like.
You can see it on nearly every major characters face. Quiet included. They all have this heavy atmosphere about them. A kind of guilty fatal attraction, that defines them and their actions. That aspect combined with the over the top nature of the enemies and other characters in the Metalgearverse, like those almost magical or superhuman characters, makes it so a singular character like Quiet, in that world, isn't out of place. She belongs in that world and suits it's craziness perfectly. She is a perfect representation of herself within Metal Gear, if that makes sense.
Of course there's a ultra-turned-up-to-11-sexy-sniper, because there is a Legendary Solider, there is a Man on Fire, there are Metal Gears, hyper-advanced-for-their-time robotic arms, and
.
I think it would be strange if she looked at all different.
...
Also,
on a different note,
I've heard some people mention what people who have seen them playing thought, or what it looked like to people who haven't played the game. Should artists/creators alter their work, or vision, based on what someone who isn't playing thinks? The unintended viewer?
The game is intended for the player, and that player is the one who is likely experiencing the story, knows about the backgrounds of the characters, and their motivations. The player would also have experienced the tone and atmosphere the game is presenting like how the characters speak and what they are likely feeling. Finally, they would be in a place mentally, where a Man on Fire and Huge Mechs, are understandable, and even expected. The player is invested in the Metalgear universe, and the game is made for the player. The person experiencing everything. Not a person - a roommate or girlfriend walking by. Out of context, in a vacuum, many things can be seen as ridiculous.
I think there is a certain feeling the game, and by extension Kojima, is trying to impart. Boss looks tired, worn out. The struggle is real. Each mission, coming and going. Every thing from the music of the game, to the sad dejected look nearly everyone wears, the very atmosphere of the game. And this helps to inform of us of the crazy world that we are stepping into when we play the game. A world where this tortured solider lost everything, has fought against literally impossible odds -- superhuman enemies, various mechs and other armed machines, even the people he loved and respected the most. This character has felt wilder emotional arcs then most people will ever come close to experiencing. But as we play Boss, we get a taste of what that would be like.
You can see it on nearly every major characters face. Quiet included. They all have this heavy atmosphere about them. A kind of guilty fatal attraction, that defines them and their actions. That aspect combined with the over the top nature of the enemies and other characters in the Metalgearverse, like those almost magical or superhuman characters, makes it so a singular character like Quiet, in that world, isn't out of place. She belongs in that world and suits it's craziness perfectly. She is a perfect representation of herself within Metal Gear, if that makes sense.
Of course there's a ultra-turned-up-to-11-sexy-sniper, because there is a Legendary Solider, there is a Man on Fire, there are Metal Gears, hyper-advanced-for-their-time robotic arms, and
language parasites
I think it would be strange if she looked at all different.
...
Also,
on a different note,
I've heard some people mention what people who have seen them playing thought, or what it looked like to people who haven't played the game. Should artists/creators alter their work, or vision, based on what someone who isn't playing thinks? The unintended viewer?
The game is intended for the player, and that player is the one who is likely experiencing the story, knows about the backgrounds of the characters, and their motivations. The player would also have experienced the tone and atmosphere the game is presenting like how the characters speak and what they are likely feeling. Finally, they would be in a place mentally, where a Man on Fire and Huge Mechs, are understandable, and even expected. The player is invested in the Metalgear universe, and the game is made for the player. The person experiencing everything. Not a person - a roommate or girlfriend walking by. Out of context, in a vacuum, many things can be seen as ridiculous.
I played the game and came away thinking less of the character and the game than even I thought I would. It's one thing to wear a bikini for whatever reason, it's another that in some moments they try to make her a real character, meanwhile she's doing shit like giving me mini lap dances in the helicopter for no reason.
I was talking about this the other day, and Jim touched on it a bit, but I'd have taken the character and the "breathing through skin" concept more seriously if she was just naked -- Naked, but the camera didn't leer at her, she didn't constantly pose sexually for no reason, and so on.
I have no problem with nudity or body parts or sexuality, it's about the context, and I find it kind of gross in this case.
I was talking about this the other day, and Jim touched on it a bit, but I'd have taken the character and the "breathing through skin" concept more seriously if she was just naked -- Naked, but the camera didn't leer at her, she didn't constantly pose sexually for no reason, and so on.
I have no problem with nudity or body parts or sexuality, it's about the context, and I find it kind of gross in this case.
I appreciate your trying to justify the decision for its thematic and tonal reasons, but I don't agree.
So MGSV is set in a hyper-exaggerated world, done deliberately to heighten the drama and more clearly drive its point home, but why is the hyper-exaggerated version of a man is a gruffly stoic Legendary Soldier, while the hyper-exaggerated version of a woman is an almost naked sniper who poses and gets perved on by the camera? It's not in any way sensical. MGS3 is also set in a hyper-exaggerated world, and they manage to create a perfectly heightened female character there in The Boss. It's almost embarrassing to say that the natural exaggerated form of a female is a sexy, naked super-soldier.
------
To those saying "But Kojima's always been doing this, why is everyone complaining now?" - a) It doesn't matter how many times someone's gotten away with something - if they're wrong they're wrong and b) it's because the video game industry has slowly but surely clawed its way into the modern world where this kind of shit isn't okay. The fact that the previous MGS games got away with their crassness is an indictment on the old industry.
To those saying "MGS has always been filled to the brim with hyper-sexualised characters of both genders" is massively reductionist. Really consider those words. Yes, we've seen Snake topless before, Vamp is eccentric and Raiden is stripped bare (which actually has thematic purpose), but there's never been the relentless, ridiculous leering and objectification of males like the females throughout the series. And even if there was, that's bad writing too! What thematic or story-driven relevance does objectifying its cast of characters have in these games? It's bad no matter what, has no place here, and only makes the experience cheaper and less cohesive.
One thing that's interesting is that for most of Quiets more sexual actions, it actually requires the player to actively seek it out. In the chopper there's no way to stare at Quiet with out both holding R1 and then moving the camera to her. Click the R3 to zoom. You can kind of see her through the iDroid UI, but not really.
Alternatively, the player could visit Quiet on Motherbase, but this also requires the player go there themselves, i.e. want to. You do see her in the story and get her explanation, and there's the
flirting
Is it though? She is a silent character and these are some of the only interactions we get with her. It's not our fault the game doesn't offer anything else and I think the reasons why are self evident I feel. I understand why you're trying to use ingame justifications for her portrayal but that doesn't address the fact that the creators made her this way and for very specific reasons: that she was designed to look and act a certain way first and the justification was written afterwards. It completely robs the character of any weight for me and I wouldn't be surprised if other people felt the same.
There was! Even saw hints of dangling junk too.
What we didn't get are rotating tracking shots of manbutt like this.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
A)Game wasn't doing it for titillation B)Nowhere near as objectified or focused on as Quiet's outfit.
I tried to take a peak at Ishmael's nuts, but i couldn't.
Kojima dropping the ball again.
Tomeru
Member
It is enough in this case, because this way, us players share the responsibility. Which I think is also a point.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
No it's not in this case, because the player never has a choice when it comes to Quiet's sexualization, Ishamel getting shot isn't followed up by a closeup of his ass.
Earthpainting
Member
I haven't played the game yet, but going by what I know, Jim seems to be on the money here. The justification feels flimsy, but even if you go with it, the camera direction and Quiet's poses in the helicopter are pretty shameless. If you go by the in-game reasoning, the direction's objectification of Quiet becomes kind of gross, and even makes the fully clothed option seem a bit cruel. If it isn't, then the whole thing falls apart. Something tells me they didn't end up caring very much though.
Maybe Kojima envisioned something else completely when he made that "you will be ashamed" line, as it's been quite a while ago and things can change in production. As is, it all seems pretty iffy and unfortunate, and it's hard to hard to give him and his crew the benefit of doubt after MGS4 and Peace Walker. MGS4 gave you the option to shoot women full of tranquillisers until they get doped up enough to take risqué photos of them, and in Peace Walker you can dive into a "love box" with the type of character you'd see "I swear she's 16 or 18 or whatever your country's age of consent is" defences for.
Maybe Kojima envisioned something else completely when he made that "you will be ashamed" line, as it's been quite a while ago and things can change in production. As is, it all seems pretty iffy and unfortunate, and it's hard to hard to give him and his crew the benefit of doubt after MGS4 and Peace Walker. MGS4 gave you the option to shoot women full of tranquillisers until they get doped up enough to take risqué photos of them, and in Peace Walker you can dive into a "love box" with the type of character you'd see "I swear she's 16 or 18 or whatever your country's age of consent is" defences for.
So basically her only interaction with the player is to show her ass? Seriously, in the context of the narrative she is entirely worthless. As your bond increases all she does is start flirting. It adds nothing at all to the story. No one else's opinion changes about her and she doesn't even attempt communicate anything.
Know what would have been nice? A fucking note. Something other than her trying to kill someone, show her ass, and getting tortured. How about when you visit her she tries to communicate with you?
When the choice is gawk at her or nothing, it doesn't matter if the player chooses to do so, there is literally nothing else you can do off mission. Her entire existence is basically to be gawked at. Which is pretty shitty.
He barely wrote ANY character in this game.
This game feels put together just to sell trailers, and Quiet too, feels like the ultimate agent of pathetic, desperate fan service.
I'm not one to frown upon every type of sexualization, i like Bayonetta, i'm ok with Dead or Alive, and i'm ok with the lady posters in MGS2.
Sexualization can be alright.
Quiet however is not only out of place given the more serious tone of the game, but it also pushes it so far (nearly every single thing she does is trying to get in your face in some "sexy" way) that really goes beyond reason, no matter how you slice it.
It's just shit.
BUT, the rest of the story feels so patched together and is so bad, that as i said, i get the feeling the whole game is just some random cutscenes created to put together cool trailers, thrown in at random to support the (admittedly amazing) gameplay.
For this reason i feel less like Quiet is ruining anything, and it's another one of the kicks to the balls this game's story delivers.
If it ruins a story, it ruins a story.
Here it's completely out of place.
I'd agree with you if we were talking Bayonetta.
I haven't finished the game yet, but I'm keeping an open mind on the story, I know what to expect though. I love MGSV but I also respect the people divided over the content.
I do hope Kojima can write a more story filled game again with a talkative lead.
You're allowed to feel that way, but in the context of the Metal Gear series it hardly feels out of place. Sniper Wolf's tits were falling out of her top, Vulcan Raven marched about the snow just wearing pants and Raiden was covering up his genitals for an entire section in 2. That bizarre aspect is par for the course. Quiet is just an extension of that.
Nah.
Or, like everything else in audiovisual mediums, it depends on the context and the execution.
Nobody's demanding it should be changed. But it was dumb and shouldn't have been done that way.
I already like Quiet more in this, despite her character design.
It just goes to show how much the game needlessly sexualises her even beyond her design. 'Zoom to ass', 'Zoom to breasts'. It's not even like she has that design but it's played completely straight, and that could have been done, but I guess the urge to have Quiet present her ass to the player was too great for Kojima to resist.
*sigh*
the whole 'play something else' or 'don't buy it' arguments are absolutely the worst kind of logic.
it may amaze some people getting overly defensive about this but people can actually still be critical of the things they enjoy :O
and no, there's nothing wrong with just sexualisation. this isn't why people are upset. dismissing people critical of quiet's depiction as prudes is completely missing the fucking point. people are disappointed because quiet can be seen as another example of the media being sexist and objectifying women. the actual explanation for her design and the way she acts has a hilariously weaksauce excuse by kojima and is simply just a way to turn the big female character in the story into tits and ass for guys to ogle. not only does this sort of shit totally undermine the character but it is another example of the problematic way women are represented in the media as a whole.
it's also entirely possible for female characters to be sexy without being sexist and completely objectifying them.
Yabberwocky
Member
Quiet inheriting Ocelot's I've quit better jobs that this schtick is my new favourite thing. She didn't need dialogue to gain a personality. If they'd also treated her like this in game cinematography-wise, it would have been a lot less of an issue.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I'm not a puritan for wanting a well written female character who's sole purpose is for men to gawk at her at every turn, from her characterization, to the fact that the camera doesn't stop even when she's being tortured or
about to be raped
Clearly.
Like I said, a character, man or women, being there solely for people to look at isn't the end of the world. People objectify people all the time, everyone. Stefanie Joosten is fine with how Quiet is portrayed, so that should really be the end of it.
Kojima doesn't need to change just because you don't like what he's done. The existence of a sexy character doesn't undermine women, there is other media.
Jangowuzhere
Banned
Sniper Wolf is supposed to look like a seductive femme fatale. She looks straight out of a spy flick when you first meet her. However, in most of the game, she is fully clothed, especially for the more serious moments in the story.
You're also talking about characters from games made over a decade ago. The times have changed significantly, and Quiet is easily the worst female character in an MGS game.
uomoartificiale
Member
By the way, everyone always brings up the Boss as the good example of a good powerful female character in MGS. I agree (love the Boss!) but let's not forget EVA, who is there playing the role of the sexy spy. She's badass, she owns up her hotness (she use it like a real honeypot spy would do), and she's always one step forward everyone.
It's also ironic how EVA also kakes the role of the silent beauty in that game, masquerading herself as the Sokolov lover, while she's in fact working with the boss.
It's also ironic how EVA also kakes the role of the silent beauty in that game, masquerading herself as the Sokolov lover, while she's in fact working with the boss.
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