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Canadian General Election (OT) - #elxn42: October 19, 2015

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I've long expected if the NDP vote starts to collapse you'll see Trudeau at the last minute trotting out the ol' "vote Liberal to stop Harper" to NDP voters -- it's helped them in the past and I see no reason it wouldn't work again, if that message is accompanying a poll with the Liberals in a strong 2nd place.

Ah yes, the good ol' lend us your votes strategy. The NDP base has grown quite a lot, and considering Liberals have proven unwilling to 'lend them back' for two elections in a row I don't think there's quite so much good will any more.

If the NDP collapses to 20% or so and the Liberals take half of that and the CPC/Bloc take the other half we're solidly in CPC majority territory, to an outcome basically similar to 2011 with the LPC and NDP swapped.

I hope Rathgeber can make it up. He's a solid MP, and he deserves to get back in.



Except that's the Liberal stance, too, and they went up a little in Quebec (within the margin of error, of course, but still). I don't think it's just the niqab -- I think the bulk water ads are having an impact, too, along with a general dissatisfaction with Mulcair's campaign. A lot of the NDP gains in Quebec last election were because of Layton's personal popularity. I think the niqab is definitely playing a role, but I don't think that's all of it.

You see a 17 point drop in the NDP and a 16 point combined rise in the CPC and Bloc and think it's not pretty much all the niqab? ... I don't get it.
 
Seems like an appropriate time to post this article

The NDP's rightward drift is a strategy destined to fail

In 2013, then-NDP leader Adrian Dix was about to address a labour convention to kick off his election campaign. Dix enjoyed a 20-point lead in the polls over a floundering Christy Clark. The mood in the room was jubilant: after 10 years of B.C. Liberal austerity, the left was going to finally win.

Then someone handed me a placard: "CHANGE FOR THE BETTER," it read. "ONE PRACTICAL STEP AT A TIME."

Uh oh, I thought. We are in big trouble.

Dix and his campaign team were trying to temper partisan expectations before he had won. Instead of giving people desperate for real change something to vote for, his braintrust tried to manage excitement and dampen spirits that threatened to take over the party, as if that would be a bad thing

Meanwhile, Christy Clark told her base that this was the most important election in a generation, that low taxes and resource extraction were the only ways to protect British Columbians. She oversaw one of the greatest comebacks -- and worst collapses -- in Canadian political history.

I'm getting that feeling again. In fact, I've had it for a while. We've seen versions of this strategy play out -- and lose -- again and again since Dix's calamity. Nova Scotia's Darrell Dexter's failed to get re-elected despite running a fiscally moderate (i.e. austerity-lite) government. Ontario's Andrea Horwath tried to run on centre-right economic bonafides and got crushed by a left-leaning (in rhetoric, anyway) Kathleen Wynne, throwing away NDP influence in Queen's Park. And Olivia Chow squandered an early lead to John Tory in the Toronto mayoral race by waiting too late to release her vision of a Toronto that could appeal to voters' imaginations.

Yes, all NDP candidates face a hostile, disingenuous press and opposing parties with more money and more influence. I don't want to minimize the stacked deck all social democratic politicians must play with. But the trend is clear: when voters are faced with a left-leaning party campaigning on centrist economic ideals, they will pick the real deal every time. Every. Single. Time.

In February of this year, Thomas Mulcair's NDP took a courageous and at the time, unpopular position on Bill C-51, a dangerous and unprecedented piece of legislation that would shore up the powers of the Canadian security state.

Justin Trudeau's Liberals responded predictably to anyone who sees the current dimensions of political discourse degraded to the point where it is impossible to talk like grown-ups: they denounced the bill and then promised to vote for it.

Mulcair, however, was rewarded for his courage. Trudeau plummeted in the polls over what Canadians clearly saw as a cynical and craven piece of brinksmanship and the NDP soared back to their 2011 heights.

And then, of course, something beyond remarkable happened: the NDP won in Alberta, kneecapping a 44-year-old Tory legacy with policies that targeted tar sands corporations and promises to restore funding to public services. After that, the NDP looked like they could win anywhere. Mulcair's well-positioned federal NDP catapulted to the lead they would hold for months.

Since then, Mulcair has watched his lead chip away as a revitalized Trudeau fought back with traditional social democratic talking points like new infrastructure investment, higher taxes for the wealthy and, gasp, promises to run a deficit. Today, an EKOS poll (yes, just one poll, but still) puts Mulcair back in third place with Harper close to another majorty.

Articles abound at how Mulcair's balanced budget talk, his turfing of pro-Palestinian candidates and equivocations over pipelines represents a betrayal to the party's leftist roots. Ok, maybe. Insofar as it is possible to still be betrayed by something that has been happening for decades. But the real take home from this rightward pose is that it is terrible strategy.

At its best, Mulcair's NDP can inspire. Bill C-51 is the best example, but its universal child-care policy and promise to abolish the senate also fall into this category. But there have been too many blunders. Mulcair's sudden love for balanced budgets not only affirms the faulty framework that inexplicably lauds Stephen Harper as a responsible steward of the economy, it cedes precious ground to Trudeau, of all people, at the moment Canadians want an alternative to neoliberal pabulum.

The Syrian refugee crisis represents another lost opportunity. When Canada's collective hearts were breaking and desperate for real action, party leaders debated how quickly or how carefully we should welcome the same 10,000 refugees. A bold, compassionate promise to take in something far closer to our fair share -- say, 100,000 -- would have set apart Mulcair and captured the rare moment emotion and politics came together in the imaginations of Canadians. Instead, our leaders tediously wrangled over how many angels could fit on the head of a pin.

The reason Mulcair was elected Jack Layton's successor, we were told, was that he knew how to win. For four years, there has been little evidence of that skill until February -- when even that classic NDP archetype, the supporter who regrets they have but one membership card to burn for their party, felt fire in their throats. But if that appetite is not fed, history shows us it will find sustenance elsewhere.

How many more times do we have to watch this movie? Because this time, I don't know if my heart can take it.

Pairs well with the recent abacus poll.
Ley3QJx.png


The NDP needs to stop listening to their right wing critics in the media. They need to stop downplaying their left wing ideas and adjusting their message. Just be genuinely who you are. That's what the Conservatives do and they keep winning.
 
That sounds a lot like this story from today's Star: Mulcair and NDP need a change in strategy

It’s not that the NDP hasn’t put an electoral package on the table. It is that they seem reluctant to go the extra, bold step in selling their ideas because Mulcair got trapped in the cautious front-runner frame of mind.

Ah yes, the good ol' lend us your votes strategy. The NDP base has grown quite a lot, and considering Liberals have proven unwilling to 'lend them back' for two elections in a row I don't think there's quite so much good will any more.

If the NDP collapses to 20% or so and the Liberals take half of that and the CPC/Bloc take the other half we're solidly in CPC majority territory, to an outcome basically similar to 2011 with the LPC and NDP swapped.

You see a 17 point drop in the NDP and a 16 point combined rise in the CPC and Bloc and think it's not pretty much all the niqab? ... I don't get it.

1) The "Lend us your votes" strategy worked wonders for Layton in 2006/8. I don't think it's unreasonable to think it could go the other way, too. I don't think Trudeau would phrase it quite like that, but the core message won't be all that different.

2) Fine, I *hope* there's something more to it than the niqab.
 
How I feel about this election a little more each day:

latest


I mean, I'm still going to vote, but damn, it's getting depressing following the media coverage.


There were some NDP pollsters in my apartment yesterday going door to door to see how people were voting. I asked them how it's going and they said so many people commented that they aren't voting.

I'm not happy about that comment. :(
 
1) The "Lend us your votes" strategy worked wonders for Layton in 2006/8. I don't think it's unreasonable to think it could go the other way, too. I don't think Trudeau would phrase it quite like that, but the core message won't be all that different.

What? The NDP weren't asking anyone to 'lend' their votes under Layton. Lend your vote arguments are "vote for us against your own preference or the bad guys get a majority". The NDP have never had a position to say that until this election. It was always the Liberals making that argument, ever since the CPC came along. Harper's "he's just not ready" thing about Trudeau? That's what NDP voters have heard from the Liberals for decades.

It's also the argument the PCs used in Alberta in the last two elections, to block the Wildrose.
 
Had the CPC candidate come to my house the other day.
Told them I wouldn't vote for them

They really tried to sell me on how well the world views Canada under Harper.
Called him out on that.
Also told me not to vote Liberal, as they couldn't imagine a Canada under Trudeau.
Told them I didn't want to imagine a Canada under Harper again.

They won my riding last time, since the Liberals and NDP split.
I'm really worried about a split again. :/
 
What? The NDP weren't asking anyone to 'lend' their votes under Layton.
Layton did use those terms to try and get votes from disillusioned Liberal supporters while Martin was stumbling over himself in the 2006 election.

It's obvious that under any disproportional system that the only way for the Libs and the NDP and the Greens to actually win seats will be to take enough voters from each other to actually win ridings. I don't see why people here are surprised or angry at the Liberals and the NDP doing exactly that. They're playing by the rules of the game. The rules of the game are insane. We've never been closer to changing those rules and I'd hate to see it slip away yet again.
 
That sounds a lot like this story from today's Star: Mulcair and NDP need a change in strategy

It’s not that the NDP hasn’t put an electoral package on the table. It is that they seem reluctant to go the extra, bold step in selling their ideas because Mulcair got trapped in the cautious front-runner frame of mind.

I agree with this quote a lot. There's interesting things in the NDP platform, but they've spent so much of their time talking about tax cuts for small businesses, and sensible change "one step at a time" that their core left wing supporters have clearly become disengaged.

Time to start talking about exciting change. Why is Harper terrible? What would the NDP do that would dramatically change Canada for the better? Focus on these things. No one is getting excited about cautious change from a steady statesmanlike leader.
 
I can't believe such a terrible issue, even in Quebec, would have such a negative effect.
Is that really an important issue?

Provincially, identity poltics have been played in 2008 and 2013. Harper took that ball and ran without it

there are two kinds of nationalists in Quebec. Left wing Nationalists and Right Wing Nationalist. Left Wing nationalists are secularists who are anti religion. Right Wing Nationalist are Catholic and anti ''others''

so the Niqab debate is a lose for the NDP from both types of nationalists.
 
I agree with this quote a lot. There's interesting things in the NDP platform, but they've spent so much of their time talking about tax cuts for small businesses, and sensible change "one step at a time" that their core left wing supporters have clearly become disengaged.

Time to start talking about exciting change. Why is Harper terrible? What would the NDP do that would dramatically change Canada for the better? Focus on these things. No one is getting excited about cautious change from a steady statesmanlike leader.

Tonight is a very good night to do that. I hope Mulcair doesn't stick to his talking points to much tonight. I do mostly like the NDP platform, but I don't like how cautious the NDP are at times.
 
I agree with this quote a lot. There's interesting things in the NDP platform, but they've spent so much of their time talking about tax cuts for small businesses, and sensible change "one step at a time" that their core left wing supporters have clearly become disengaged.

Time to start talking about exciting change. Why is Harper terrible? What would the NDP do that would dramatically change Canada for the better? Focus on these things. No one is getting excited about cautious change from a steady statesmanlike leader.

I really don't think it would make a difference. The NDP might even go lower if they went full left.
Canada is as centrist as it gets. It's the ultimate "don't rock the boat" country. When was the last large protest in Canada? Québec students took to the streets and were called lazy and freeloaders.
You can promise an utopian future of green energy and financial equality with a ton of wonderful ideas and it won't do shit as long as your opponent says the words "deficit", "tax increase", "job losses" and "terrorists".

When complete non-issues lead to double-digit swings in the polls, you know the situation is beyond hopeless.

As long as shit doesn't hit the fan, à la Greece and Spain, there won't be a large movement to the left.
 
I seem to remember this happening last election too, RE: Poll numbers and graphs.

There's all these early projections of one party being ahead, then another, than the other, and the closer we get to election day all parties equal out to 30/30/30, so that the pollsters aren't ever 'wrong', because it's too close to call.


Like clockwork, I guarantee by the 2nd week of October, all three parties will be dead even, again.
 
Well, I think I'm just gonna get out and vote later today. I've made up my mind and I'm gonna vote for the Libs. It's somewhat strategic anyway since my riding has been regularly Liberal no matter what.


Can't wait to just sit back and eat the popcorn on Oct. 19.
 
Layton did use those terms to try and get votes from disillusioned Liberal supporters while Martin was stumbling over himself in the 2006 election.

I forgot about that. I think there was a significant element of tongue in cheek to it, though. I could see how someone who was still into the Liberals at the time could interpret it fully literally, though. Don't get me wrong, he was clearly after Liberal voters, but he wanted them to become NDP voters, not set aside their differences temporarily.

It's obvious that under any disproportional system that the only way for the Libs and the NDP and the Greens to actually win seats will be to take enough voters from each other to actually win ridings. I don't see why people here are surprised or angry at the Liberals and the NDP doing exactly that. They're playing by the rules of the game. The rules of the game are insane. We've never been closer to changing those rules and I'd hate to see it slip away yet again.

Agreed. Playing on the CPC's ground is a losing game and the Liberals and NDP needed to treat this as an election for a replacement for the CPC, where one of them would win most of the support in a way that would distribute in a way that could actually win them government, so we can end this bullshit once and for all.

I seem to remember this happening last election too, RE: Poll numbers and graphs.

There's all these early projections of one party being ahead, then another, than the other, and the closer we get to election day all parties equal out to 30/30/30, so that the pollsters aren't ever 'wrong', because it's too close to call.


Like clockwork, I guarantee by the 2nd week of October, all three parties will be dead even, again.

... None of this happened in 2011.

2011FederalElectionPolls.png
 
This is what polls show in BC:

Ridings%2B1.png


CPC looks strong...
Rural area's with their population shouldn't have that voting power. :/

My riding looks strong for the Liberals.
 
I seem to remember this happening last election too, RE: Poll numbers and graphs.

There's all these early projections of one party being ahead, then another, than the other, and the closer we get to election day all parties equal out to 30/30/30, so that the pollsters aren't ever 'wrong', because it's too close to call.


Like clockwork, I guarantee by the 2nd week of October, all three parties will be dead even, again.

I do expect the NDP's poll numbers to go right back up again, but I'm not sure if it will lead to a three way tie again. The NDP at this point are guaranteed around 100 seats with their current poll numbers.
 
I remember reading here on a thread n GAF and elsewhere about this 10-day limit thing in modern news cycles. That is, most people stop talking about things after 10 days because they would've moved onto something else. If an issue lasts for more than 10 days, then it has staying power.

We're just over the 10 days now, so who knows whether the polls will change in the coming weeks...

This is what polls show in BC:

Ridings%2B1.png


CPC looks strong...
Rural area's with their population shouldn't have that voting power. :/

My riding looks strong for the Liberals.

BC has always been relatively strong in their CPC support, especially in the interior.
 
I forgot about that. I think there was a significant element of tongue in cheek to it, though. I could see how someone who was still into the Liberals at the time could interpret it fully literally, though. Don't get me wrong, he was clearly after Liberal voters, but he wanted them to become NDP voters, not set aside their differences temporarily.

Jack Layton, 2006:

"Vote for us just this once, in this election, so there is a strong voice in the next Parliament that is standing up for the priorities progressive people believe in," he told a group of students at a Toronto community college. "The Liberal party is going into the repair shop for a while to work through its ethical issues and to figure out what it's about. They're going to be busy thinking about themselves, not you."

I only remember because I actually did take it literally. I thought Martin was a terrible leader, and I couldn't in good conscience vote Liberal. I thought it was a pretty effective pitch on Layton's part, since the NDP was the only alternative (there was no way I could vote Green, for reasons I...can't get in to).

Time to start talking about exciting change. Why is Harper terrible? What would the NDP do that would dramatically change Canada for the better? Focus on these things. No one is getting excited about cautious change from a steady statesmanlike leader.

Sounds wholly reasonable! After all, it was his anti-Harper passion that pushed them to the top of the polls in the spring and summer. Maybe Angry Tom isn't such a bad strategy. And Trudeau has jumped in the polls in part because he's been so passionate. So, NDP strategists, what are you telegraphing as your plan for tonight's debate?

NDP Leader will aim to showcase statesman like competence on foreign policy

...

Right.

Had the CPC candidate come to my house the other day.
Told them I wouldn't vote for them

They really tried to sell me on how well the world views Canada under Harper.
Called him out on that.
Also told me not to vote Liberal, as they couldn't imagine a Canada under Trudeau.
Told them I didn't want to imagine a Canada under Harper again.

They won my riding last time, since the Liberals and NDP split.
I'm really worried about a split again. :/

Actual conversation I had when my local Conservative candidate's campaign called me a few days ago.

"Matthew, can the Conservatives count on your support in this upcoming election?"

"God no."

"...does that mean you're undecided about who to vote for, or does that mean you're not aware of the current election?"

"If I say 'God no' to whether I'll be voting Conservative, do you really think that means there's a chance I might vote for them?"

Bizarrely, that's the second call I've gotten from them during the campaign, too, and I was equally emphatic the first time they called.

It's obvious that under any disproportional system that the only way for the Libs and the NDP and the Greens to actually win seats will be to take enough voters from each other to actually win ridings. I don't see why people here are surprised or angry at the Liberals and the NDP doing exactly that. They're playing by the rules of the game. The rules of the game are insane. We've never been closer to changing those rules and I'd hate to see it slip away yet again.

Honest question: if your choice in this election ends up being AV/ranked ballots or no change at all, which would you prefer?
 
the ABC vote is working in Mont-Royal to block Robert Libman
Ridings%2B9.png

In most diverse Montreal ridings, the NDP fare better numbers between 30% to 20%.

But it seems that the ABC factor takes into full affect strongly in Mont-Royal behind Liberals' Housefateher

Mont-Royal is the riding in Montreal where Conservatives rise above 30% mark.
 
I don't know what was weirder, David Suzuki calling Justin Trudeau a twerp or Conrad Black calling Harper facile (or at least I think it was facile). Ah interviews. lol
 
I definitely think that hiding Angry Tom has been doing the NDP a huge disservice. People are angry and the NDP were poised to take advantage of that anger.
 
Honest question: if your choice in this election ends up being AV/ranked ballots or no change at all, which would you prefer?

No change. Voting system reform, no matter where it's done, is pretty much a one time deal for a long time. Either a new system sticks, or it gets rolled back to the old one and that's it for a generation. No where has a voting system been changed and, if people aren't happy with the new one, changed to a third system, it's always been back to the old system and that's the issue dead. The same would happen with any move to AV.

Add to that that there is a lot of misunderstanding, both genuine and malicious, that conflates AV/IRV with PR. It takes a little bit of digging into how the system works to realize that in the vast majority of cases the same damn people get elected and AV gives an unfair advantage to the same parties as FPTP (namely big tent and regional protest. Suffer the widely but shallowly supported Greens and PCs) . Not only is it a sham reform it's a sham reform that masquerades as real reform incredibly effectively.
 
I definitely think that hiding Angry Tom has been doing the NDP a huge disservice. People are angry and the NDP were poised to take advantage of that anger.

They still have time to unleash him especially tonight, but I'm not sure if they will unleash him tonight.
 
This is what polls show in BC:

Ridings%2B1.png


CPC looks strong...
Rural area's with their population shouldn't have that voting power. :/

My riding looks strong for the Liberals.

Those aren't polls those are projections.

Essentially they are educated guesses based on prior election results.

I would caution people to not treat these very seriously. A recent riding poll for Vancouver Granville for example showed the NDP ahead by 6% whereas the projection suggested a big Liberal victory.
 
Those aren't polls those are projections.

Essentially they are educated guesses based on prior election results.

I would caution people to not treat these very seriously. A recent riding poll for Vancouver Granville for example showed the NDP ahead by 6% whereas the projection suggested a big Liberal victory.

You know where the correct polls are located for each riding? :P
 
You know where the correct polls are located for each riding? :P

Unfortunately we don't really have riding level polling. Vote Together has done several for close ridings. https://www.votetogether.ca

In the absence of local polls there is really not much good guidance. It's worth considering previous results, who the incumbent and challengers are, and as silly as it sounds the amount of candidate signs you see on people's property (signs on public spaces don't count).
 
Unfortunately we don't really have riding level polling. Vote Together has done several for close ridings. https://www.votetogether.ca

In the absence of local polls there is really not much good guidance. It's worth considering previous results, who the incumbent and challengers are, and as silly as it sounds the amount of candidate signs you see on people's property (signs on public spaces don't count).

:(

I really want to vote whoever has a higher chance of taking out the CPC.
Though I do see a lot of CPC and NDP signs in my area.

One house has CPC signs on their lawn and flag on their car.
(Guess their ethnicity and age) :|

We've always been a Liberal area, until the last election.
 
Unfortunately we don't really have riding level polling. Vote Together has done several for close ridings. https://www.votetogether.ca

In the absence of local polls there is really not much good guidance. It's worth considering previous results, who the incumbent and challengers are, and as silly as it sounds the amount of candidate signs you see on people's property (signs on public spaces don't count).

This is pretty much what I am doing. I've been keeping a running total when I'm in the passenger seat and right now my count is 37NDP/11Cons/2Libs... though they just put a bunch of new signs up so I might have to start recounting
 
The difficulty of watching this elections' debates is probably really skewing their consequences compared to the past. It probably matters a hell of a lot more now what the press says about who won or lost, when most people will not have seen them first hand. This is very unfortunate. :/
 
This should be hammered home by the Liberals and NDP. It's just as maddening seeing none of the parties talk about it. It's honestly the biggest fuck up by the conservatives yet no one cares.
Yeah. There were a few people on my Facebook sharing it a week or so ago (and I did the same while angrily whining) but I didn't see anything on it outside of this one article. It's the scariest thing about Harper's Conservatives. The removal of the long form census, the destruction of data, the muzzling of Canada's scientists... they're creating a Canada that cannot make informed decisions.
 
Yeah. There were a few people on my Facebook sharing it a week or so ago (and I did the same while angrily whining) but I didn't see anything on it outside of this one article. It's the scariest thing about Harper's Conservatives. The removal of the long form census, the destruction of data, the muzzling of Canada's scientists... they're creating a Canada that cannot make informed decisions.
It's been happening for so long that we're all used to it. Remember when the scientist was put on leave or demoted when he did an interview that the government didn't approve of? There's like zero outrage for this stuff because we're used to the being purposefully ignorant now.
 
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