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[The Jackdog]

i played peace walker and mgs4. it would have been worse with hayter. trust me.

agreed. i think kiefer killed it. his dialogue was limited but when he really needed some gravitas behind the words i think he sold it. especially the ashes speech. i just think hayter would of garbled through that.

as much as i am incredibly, unequivocally let down by the story, i liked kiefer.

 

[Stereogatari]

What is the modding looking like so far? Just character stuff? I'm eventually hoping for recreations of the old games lol, missions and all.

 

[Spaghetti]

agreed. i think kiefer killed it. his dialogue was limited but when he really needed some gravitas behind the words i think he sold it. especially the ashes speech. i just think hayter would of garbled through that.

as much as i am incredibly, unequivocally let down by the story, i liked kiefer.

pretty much. i like DH as much as anybody in 1 thru 3, but he was awful in 4 and peace walker, as well as the voiced version of the digital graphic novel stuff.

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

What is the modding looking like so far? Just character stuff? I'm eventually hoping for recreations of the old games lol, missions and all.

every modding community starts with the simple hacks since, well, they're a simple way to understand how the game functions. Those type of mods, the complete overhaul type of stuff, that takes time, both for creating the assets for such mods and also to familiarize oneself with how a game's innards work.

dont expect those type of mods for months if not years

 

[Graphics Horse]

I quite like the one take cutscenes in most cases, but replaying Metallic Archea, the one that comes after that in the helicopter seemed really poor. Near the start it zooms into snake's eyeball to introduce a brief first person part despite never having to do that previously, then they give up on that idea and it feels like the camera man just starts losing track of the who's talking and gets bored swinging around and randomly zooming in and out.

 

[Golnei]

What is the modding looking like so far? Just character stuff? I'm eventually hoping for recreations of the old games lol, missions and all.

It's still in its infancy. Model swaps and some limited texture editing have been done already, as you can see (including a couple of interesting applications like using your currently selected Combat Unit soldier in cutscenes, female recruits included; or free-roaming on the Cyprus/hospital map from the prologue); but there's also a few gameplay affecting mods at this point, like a 'hard mode' rebalance for the entire game, and a mod to allow the subsistence conditions to be used with any mission in the game. And while it's a small thing, I found the mod that replaces every weapon's name with a real-life equivalent to be a nice touch which brought things a little further in line with previous games.

For actual mission editing or even model imports, you'll probably be waiting a while. It's not even guaranteed modding will progress to that level without official tools.

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

re: venom, the main thing I feel is that they couldn't decide if he was a character or a player avatar and made it so he doesn't work on either level. As a character he's a really well emoting character model that mainly visibly reacts to situation, but doesn't have enough self-agency to make any decisions the character makes really believable or desirable. As an avatar, he has too much self-agency to reflect the idea that the player's choices make him who he is. Consequentially, the whole thing makes me feel like i wasted my fucking time

i think it's a good example of the twist going right up its own arse and ruining things. Raiden was a player avatar, but he was also Raiden, a character. Venom is supposed to be a blank slate but because Kojima needed to preserve the twist that he was BB, he needs to have moments of characterisation, all of which is undone by the attempted metaphor of him being the player, except that doesn't work either because he obviously has self-agency even if subdued.

Nah. When you play any game you think you're playing that character.

It's super meta. You think you're playing as Big boss, just like you did in mgs3, but BOOM it's just you. In real life you're a fan of big boss and the games. But in the universe you're his best, most skilled soldier. Loyal to the end.

I think it's actually pretty cool through more I think about it.

I've come full circle. I used to hate it. Now I appreciate it.

 

[TumblingHippo]

After finishing 46 last night, and the Quiet ending, I thought to myself "Well, time to unlock that true ending, I bet they resolve Eli stealing the metal gear and with that, I'll be satisfied..."

Whoops.

Finding out that 46 was the "true" ending, and finally seeing 51 at least means I can just enjoy the game for what it is now, a truly solid stealth action game.

Also, I didn't find out I could even find Paz until after the end, haha.

 

[NotLiquid]

Not sure what there is to hoping for Episode 51 DLC. It's even less of an honest conclusion to the game than Episode 50, is entirely useless after the plot twist and, at least judging by the concept art, would have just been another recycled Sahelanthropus battle.

MGSV dropped the ball with the bosses.

 

[Golnei]

MGSV dropped the ball with the bosses.

The bosses they did have weren't that bad, but as the only ones in the game they definitely fall short.

Quiet may not have lived up to The End, but the battle was a decent first boss that served much the same role as Ocelot or Olga. Sahelanthropus was a solid enough mech battle which made reasonably good use of the open world. If you consider the Skull Unit as successors to the Ocelot Unit, Tengus and FROGs rather than replacements for unique bosses, they don't do that bad a job of filling the 'elite troops' niche.

Overall, Volgin was the biggest waste of potential. The summoned fire could have been used for so many varied forms of attack, and you already have a bunch of varied ways to deal damage to him, but the end result is barely a fight. He should have been Senator Armstrong with a layer of environmental puzzles over the top, not a cardboard cut-out. But even with his disappointing implementation, just a few more decently-executed unique bosses would have been enough to make the game's lineup respectable rather than anemic.

 

[ittoryu]

I wish I could talk about the "true" ending, but the damn mission 46 does not unlock for me.

Sigh.

 

[Vampirolol]

I defeated Volgin in like 30 seconds, that was disappointing. Sahelantropus though is my favorite Metal Gear battle.

 

[Jintor]

Nah. When you play any game you think you're playing that character.

It's super meta. You think you're playing as Big boss, just like you did in mgs3, but BOOM it's just you. In real life you're a fan of big boss and the games. But in the universe you're his best, most skilled soldier. Loyal to the end.

I think it's actually pretty cool through more I think about it.

I've come full circle. I used to hate it. Now I appreciate it.

sure but why?

like okay yeah I'm a guy who plays videogames and yeah you put me in as this guy who plays videogames. it was me the wholleeee tiiimeeeee. woo

except what? what's the payoff? are you saying big boss rused me? is that the message? is the message that I continued the meme of big boss by playing the game? and in continuing that meme I played right into his hands? as a distraction? actually when I first finished the game, boss going "YEAH I'M BB BUT ALSO YOU'RE BB WE'RE ALL BB" that got me for a second, sure. But the more i thought about it the more unsatisfying it became. If I was BB the whole time then why didn't anything I do change anything? (Because it can't, obviously). Why were there decisions out of my hands that couldn't change anything? Why was I playing a character in the other games and a deafmute in this one?

it's a conclusion that says something that doesn't mean anything of note but has the appearance of doing so. it's a phantom answer

 

[BadWolf]

Honestly once you realize this part Mission 43 becomes a lot less hard hitting.

It feels like Huey was meant to be a very ambiguous character in terms of intent so when he criticized you I felt like it was a bit of a red flag in terms of who was ultimately right or not. Then when nothing comes from that entire segment in terms of developing Big Boss' character and is only used as an excuse to kick Huey out, it really ruins how much it resonated for me in the moment.

Like, I was convinced that was going to be Big Boss' descent into becoming a demon or whatever but "nope we're Diamond Dogs lmao". As it stands the entire sequence literally exists probably because Kojima thought it was cool but instead like everything else it feels like it came out of nowhere.

Man that whole sequence was amazing, about to walk into that room with the men scared that Venom would kill them and then entering and having them say that "let the Boss decide" and then salute and hum the main theme. I was like fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Anyway, why would that event be his descent into becoming a demon? He didn't do anything evil or wrong there.

He shielded the Diamond Dogs personnel from a traumatic experience by going in alone. And even after finding the mutation he tried shooting limbs and using CQC till the end on those infected men instead of killing them right away. He killed the infected men, who were as good as dead anyway, to prevent them from spreading the infection to the rest of DD and beyond. He did a good thing.

Had he lost it and became a demon during this, it wouldn't have been because he did something wrong or evil but because he cracked under the pressure of having to do something painful for the greater good.

If anything, this is probably the point I would pick where Diamond Dogs became more Venom's than Big Boss's. He even established a brand new tradition that would have the men remember their fallen comrades when going into battle and gave a whole new meaning to the name Diamond Dogs.

So yeah, this moment was very significant and very memorable. It was also the reason that I wasn't surprised when people at MB would tell Venom that they would follow him no matter who he was after Episode 46, since at that point he had done enough that they were loyal to him personally.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Did anyone really wanted to be Big Boss, though?

 

[Batzi]

I wish I could talk about the "true" ending, but the damn mission 46 does not unlock for me.

Sigh.

play 3 side ops and 1 mission.

 

[Oni3298]

Did anyone really wanted to be Big Boss, though?

I've always been Big Boss so I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Ashura_MX]

Did anyone really wanted to be Big Boss, though?

Fuck no, don't want to be Snake either.

 

[KingHenrik30]

Gonna have to call my therapist after this one and tell him we got a whole bunch of new issues to go through, we can forget about the other stuff for now

 

[KingHenrik30]

Not sure what there is to hoping for Episode 51 DLC. It's even less of an honest conclusion to the game than Episode 50, is entirely useless after the plot twist and, at least judging by the concept art, would have just been another recycled Sahelanthropus battle.

MGSV dropped the ball with the bosses.

It just seems incredibly implausible that Diamond Dogs wouldn't go after Eli and Salahentropus.

But you're right, they did drop the ball on the bosses. Very disappointing.

 

[NotLiquid]

Man that whole sequence was amazing, about to walk into that room with the men scared that Venom would kill them and then entering and having them say that "let the Boss decide" and then salute and hum the main theme. I was like fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Anyway, why would that event be his descent into becoming a demon? He didn't do anything evil or wrong there.

He shielded the Diamond Dogs personnel from a traumatic experience by going in alone. And even after finding the mutation he tried shooting limbs and using CQC till the end on those infected men instead of killing them right away. He killed the infected men, who were as good as dead anyway, to prevent them from spreading the infection to the rest of DD and beyond. He did a good thing.

Had he lost it and became a demon during this, it wouldn't have been because he did something wrong or evil but because he cracked under the pressure of having to do something painful for the greater good.

If anything, this is probably the point I would pick where Diamond Dogs became more Venom's than Big Boss's. He even established a brand new tradition that would have the men remember their fallen comrades when going into battle and gave a whole new meaning to the name Diamond Dogs.

So yeah, this moment was very significant and very memorable. It was also the reason that I wasn't surprised when people at MB would tell Venom that they would follow him no matter who he was after Episode 46, since at that point he had done enough that they were loyal to him personally.

I really liked the entire sequence when I first played it and thought it was an amazing combination of narrative and game play but looking back at it in conjunction with the rest of the game I really don't think it added much to the plot unless you wholeheartedly buy into the idea that you are the mirror projection of Big Boss enjoying the power fantasy.

The cutscene at the end of that entire segment literally ends with a shot of him undergoing a facial structure change in accordance to the game's actual mechanic of Heroism / Demon points. That was the only segment in the entire game out of all the marketing material that had something with that infamous "I'm already a demon" line that Venom says in the trailers.

Big Boss doesn't need to be a hero for him to have a huge army of dudes. Maybe some of them are comfortable with their Stockholm Syndrome. Maybe some of them end up doubtful about whether this Big Boss guy is such a cool dude to be around. Some people you aim and shoot at during that entire sequence distinctly plead for you to not shoot them.

Sure, repurposing it in it's current state without some extensive rewriting doesn't solve and present the moral dilemma that Phantom Pain wanted to promise and failed to deliver, but I still feel like that entire mission looking back at it was extraneous to the narrative and did nothing but paint Big Boss, someone who becomes a monstrous villain later in the series, as a tortured hero who earns the respect of everyone. And the Venom Snake excuse doesn't really work either because only two people know that there is a second Big Boss. Venom is still the person who establishes the Outer Heaven in MG1 as an antagonist, and they're both effectively the same person.

 

[Palpable]

Is it just me or are FOB infiltrations next to impossible when someone goes in to defend? I've been seeing a lot of Japanese players getting on to defend their bases & they use the cheapest guns out there. One fucker used a rapid fire grenade launcher from across 3 struts. Another used a rapid fire smoke grenade launcher & rushed with an automatic shotgun. It seems everyone uses weapons that knock you down or blow you up. On top of that you, as the infiltrator, stand the lose a lot while the defender barely loses anything, if at all. This FOB shit is highly unbalanced. Not to mention you can't even search your friends to be able to defend each other's bases. Who's bright idea was that? MGSV is such a damn disappointment. First the garbage story (& story is why I play MGS, gameplay came 2nd) & now unbalanced/unfair online. I'm not holding my breath for MGO3. Knowing Konami, they'll drop the ball with that too.

 

[KOMANI]

i played peace walker and mgs4. it would have been worse with hayter. trust me.

If MGSV proved anything it's that voice director is to blame more than the limitations of David Hayter.

 

[BadWolf]

Big Boss doesn't need to be a hero for him to have a huge army of dudes. Maybe some of them are comfortable with their Stockholm Syndrome. Maybe some of them end up doubtful about whether this Big Boss guy is such a cool dude to be around. Some people you aim and shoot at during that entire sequence distinctly plead for you to not shoot them.

Except in the end it wasn't about Big Boss, it was about Venom. And Diamond Dogs does find out that he wasn't the real Big Boss so he could no longer 'hide' behind the legend.

The scene establishes Venom as taking control and making Diamond Dogs his own.

 

[Spaghetti]

If MGSV proved anything it's that voice director is to blame more than the limitations of David Hayter.

then why did pretty much everybody else act circles around david hayter from 4 onwards?

face it, he lost the touch. he was doing a cartoon voice that got more ridiculous over the years.

 

[Blader]

Finished mission 43 last night. I think it might have been Kojima's best piece of directing yet. Venom's snap realization that he won't solve this without killing his men, and then executing each of them one by one -- especially that group "We'll let the Boss decide" scene -- with "staff member has died, staff member has died, staff member has died" piling on every time... That was damned effective.

 

[BadWolf]

Finished mission 43 last night. I think it might have been Kojima's best piece of directing yet. Venom's snap realization that he won't solve this without killing his men, and then executing each of them one by one -- especially that group "We'll let the Boss decide" scene -- with "staff member has died, staff member has died, staff member has died" piling on every time... That was damned effective.

Extremely, and he did it through a gameplay sequence instead of a cutscene like usual.

Easily one of my fave moments in the series now.

 

[NotLiquid]

Except in the end it wasn't about Big Boss, it was about Venom. And Diamond Dogs does find out that he wasn't the real Big Boss so he could no longer 'hide' behind the legend.

The scene establish's Venom as taking control and making Diamod Dogs his own.

We don't know whether Diamond Dogs find out about it. We know that Kaz finds out about it, and that's it. If the knowledge of that was enough for Kaz to tell him to fuck off, there's really no saying that the rest of the crew wouldn't jump ship either.

Honestly, so many plot inconveniences that are written off as Venom acting as a "separate personality" seem like poor as hell excuses to me when the entire point of the game is leading up to the twist telling you that you are Big Boss and he is you. The game doesn't mince that fact - you have literally become a vector for him in mind, personality and action. Venom being in any way different personality-wise is kind of silly if you ask me because that's only something people assume well after the last minute twist tells you otherwise. The only thing different between Venom and Big Boss is that the former just meets different people.

 

[dengueboy]

Finished mission 43 last night. I think it might have been Kojima's best piece of directing yet. Venom's snap realization that he won't solve this without killing his men, and then executing each of them one by one -- especially that group "We'll let the Boss decide" scene -- with "staff member has died, staff member has died, staff member has died" piling on every time... That was damned effective.

Mission 43 is the best moment on the game and would be way better imo without the reveal of mission 46.

 

[KOMANI]

then why did pretty much everybody else act circles around david hayter from 4 onwards?

face it, he lost the touch. he was doing a cartoon voice that got more ridiculous over the years.

This where we differ. I liked him in 4 and PW. I think the only person that sounds better than him in 4 is Zimmernan.
But if you believe he sucked/got worse/never good, there should still be some blame placed on Kris Zimmernan. Blaustein worked with Hayter closely to come up with a voice for Snake in MGS1 and Zimmerman should have done the same if she wasn't happy with his performance.

 

[BadWolf]

We don't know whether Diamond Dogs find out about it. We know that Kaz finds out about it, and that's it. If the knowledge of that was enough for Kaz to tell him to fuck off, there's really no saying that the rest of the crew wouldn't jump ship either.

We do know because after mission 46 the personnel at Mother Base often tell Venom that they will follow him no matter who he really was.

This where we differ. I liked him in 4 and PW. I think the only person that sounds better than him in 4 is Zimmernan.
But if you believe he sucked/got worse/never good, there should still be some blame placed on Kris Zimmernan. Blaustein worked with Hayter closely to come up with a voice for Snake in MGS1 and Zimmerman should have done the same if she wasn't happy with his performance.

He was excellent in MGS4, especially since Snake was old now and that voice fit him better.

Hayter still had a lot of haters in general though so I wasn't surprised when they changed him.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

This where we differ. I liked him in 4 and PW. I think the only person that sounds better than him in 4 is Zimmernan.
But if you believe he sucked/got worse/never good, there should still be some blame placed on Kris Zimmernan. Blaustein worked with Hayter closely to come up with a voice for Snake in MGS1 and Zimmerman should have done the same if she wasn't happy with his performance.

Still would have been even more weird and hard to take if Hayter voiced Venom Snake though wouldn't it, why would the guy have Big Boss's voice if he wasn't even related? VOCAL CORD PARASITES. Such silliness.

 

[NotLiquid]

We do know because after mission 46 the personnel at Mother Base often tell Venom that they will follow him no matter who he was.

Then that's even more of an issue as the game is blatantly admitting that no one part of DD is second guessing Big Boss throughout any of this.

Honestly I thought Kaz abandoning Big Boss was already contrived as is but this just solidifies my opinion Kojima did not think the whole "Big Boss becomes an asshole" thing through.

 

[KOMANI]

Still would have been even more weird and hard to take if Hayter voiced Venom Snake though wouldn't it, why would the guy have Big Boss's voice if he wasn't even related? VOCAL CORD PARASITES. Such silliness.

I'm not sure if I understand your complaint because the medic and BB both sound like Kiefer.
For the record, I really liked Sutherland as Bug Boss... As Venom though...eh. They really shouldn't have cut his dialogue.
It was definitely hard NOT to hear Hayter when Snake dies/tells a soldier to get down/speak/freeze.

 

[LordCanti]

Is it just me or are FOB infiltrations next to impossible when someone goes in to defend? I've been seeing a lot of Japanese players getting on to defend their bases & they use the cheapest guns out there. One fucker used a rapid fire grenade launcher from across 3 struts. Another used a rapid fire smoke grenade launcher & rushed with an automatic shotgun. It seems everyone uses weapons that knock you down or blow you up. On top of that you, as the infiltrator, stand the lose a lot while the defender barely loses anything, if at all. This FOB shit is highly unbalanced. Not to mention you can't even search your friends to be able to defend each other's bases. Who's bright idea was that? MGSV is such a damn disappointment. First the garbage story (& story is why I play MGS, gameplay came 2nd) & now unbalanced/unfair online. I'm not holding my breath for MGO3. Knowing Konami, they'll drop the ball with that too.

If someone shows up to defend your best/only move is to start fultoning as much shit as possible as fast as you can before you inevitably die. As long as you don't get fultoned I guess you get to keep it all?

It's hard to get into FOB's when you can get invaded by a guy that has a trainer going with infinite ammo/health/etc and a machine gun that fires grenades with pinpoint accuracy (who also can't be seen by your guards at all so they're no help).

 

[Blader]

Do you guys think it's it worth it clear to Side Op 150/Mission 45 before 46 or after? I want to get to the true ending already (not that I don't already know what it is anyway, but I'd like to see/hear for myself) and am dreading the prospect of 45 as blowing up tanks/choppers have always been my most hated objectives in the game. But does going from 45 to 46 make for a better ending, or does it still work if you do 46 first and then maybe later (or never :lol) wrapping up Quiet's story?

 

[Golnei]

Do you guys think it's it worth it clear to Side Op 150/Mission 45 before 46 or after? I want to get to the true ending already (not that I don't already know what it is anyway, but I'd like to see/hear for myself) and am dreading the prospect of 45 as blowing up tanks/choppers have always been my most hated objectives in the game. But does going from 45 to 46 make for a better ending, or does it still work if you do 46 first and then maybe later (or never :lol) wrapping up Quiet's story?

46 has no ingame context. Narratively, it barely matters at all what you do beforehand.

 

[NotLiquid]

edit: nvm

 

[BadWolf]

Then that's even more of an issue as the game is blatantly admitting that no one part of DD is second guessing Big Boss throughout any of this.

Why would they be second guessing BB? They thought it was him the entire time until the end. And at that point they had Venom to lead them, who had established his own rep.

Don't forget that this isn't the exact same Mother Base as in Peace Walker, most of the old personnel aren't there anymore. Diamond Dogs is mainly made up of new people. That's why you often hear them talk about rumors and stories to one another about BB at mother base.

Honestly I thought Kaz abandoning Big Boss was already contrived as is but this just solidifies my opinion Kojima did not think the whole "Big Boss becomes an asshole" thing through.

Kaz being fucking pissed didn't feel out of place at all. On the contrary, it would have been unusual if each and every one was in agreement with the plan and followed along blindly.

There are always those who agree and those that don't.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Nah. When you play any game you think you're playing that character.

It's super meta. You think you're playing as Big boss, just like you did in mgs3, but BOOM it's just you. In real life you're a fan of big boss and the games. But in the universe you're his best, most skilled soldier. Loyal to the end.

I think it's actually pretty cool through more I think about it.

I've come full circle. I used to hate it. Now I appreciate it.

I would've appreciated it more if we got an actual ending but yeah the revelation that the player character is supposed to be some self insert at the very end of the game, where it had little to no effect, and then the text crawl immediately afterward that says he dies in the very next chronological game, was a real hoot thanks Kojima five years well spent.

 

[Nvzman]

Nah. When you play any game you think you're playing that character.

It's super meta. You think you're playing as Big boss, just like you did in mgs3, but BOOM it's just you. In real life you're a fan of big boss and the games. But in the universe you're his best, most skilled soldier. Loyal to the end.

I think it's actually pretty cool through more I think about it.

I've come full circle. I used to hate it. Now I appreciate it.

Yeah I used to think that the DD soldiers still being referred to as Boss when you play as them as being an oversight but now I realized it's intentional.
Miller, Ocelot, and the soldiers aren't saluting/talking to Snake, they are talking to you. You are their boss.
I really do like the twist, I don't get why people hate it so much. It answers a big plothole from MG1 in a cool way.

 

[Punished_Snake]

I just finished a one hour phone call with my friend who was pissed off and kept ranting after finishing the game hahaha. He wants Quiet back and he felt empty after finishing the game. I told him " In the end, you will get over it, but in the meantime, enjoy the phantom pain."

 

[NotLiquid]

Why would they be second guessing BB? They thought it was him the entire time until the end. And at that point they had Venom to lead them, who had established his own rep.

Yeah, because Venom is still Big Boss. That's the plot twist of the game. You're not Big Boss but really you are because from now on you are Big Boss.

Kaz being fucking pissed didn't feel out of place at all. On the contrary, it would have been unusual if each and every one was in agreement with the plan and followed along blindly.

There are always those who agree and those that don't.

And Kaz is the only one who disagrees out of, what, thousands of troops? Literally the only reason Kaz leaves is because he got played like a fiddle. Does that really warrant him calling Big Boss a monster in Metal Gear 2? It doesn't. There was a good opportunity for this by having Kaz object to the use of child soldiers since he likes kids and both Peace Walker + Metal Gear 2 has shown Big Boss to not be against employing them since they're useful, but nope, in TPP instead they're saving kids.

You're still glossing over my point that TPP was continuously teasing a story of turning men into demons when the only real thing it did was turn Big Boss into a power fantasy. The "but it's actually Venom Snake" excuse doesn't work because Venom is a player stand-in for Big Boss, and you're still wholly complicit in shaping the "legend", as in, becoming an antagonist in the next two games.

The game does nothing to turn Big Boss into a morally questionable villain, the story that is in place is completely perfunctory and whatever Venom Snake "does" that gains him respect is not compelling enough when he is a non-entity outside of game play.

 

[BadWolf]

I just finished a one hour phone call with my friend who was pissed off and kept ranting after finishing the game hahaha. He wants Quiet back and he felt empty after finishing the game. I told him " In the end, you will get over it, but in the meantime, enjoy the phantom pain."

The permanent loss of Quiet was such an interesting and non-gamelike idea, definitely makes you feel about the character in a way you wouldn't have otherwise.

Wanting her back, remembering how awesome and capable she was, how much she made your life easier etc.

 

[Nvzman]

then why did pretty much everybody else act circles around david hayter from 4 onwards?

face it, he lost the touch. he was doing a cartoon voice that got more ridiculous over the years.

I personally disagree when it comes to MGS4.
Old Snake is supposed to sound like a jaded, grouchy, aged mess. I don't really care if the Japanese VA didn't try that because Japanese is a very different language than English so I don't think it would translate as well if he tried to sound older.
PW however was trash, but I'm not going to pin the blame on Hayter because the voice direction of that game in general was pretty bad.
That being said, I like Sutherland far more as Big Boss than I ever did with Hayter.
But Kiefer is not Solid Snake. That still belongs to Hayter.

 

[BadWolf]

Yeah, because Venom is still Big Boss. That's the plot twist of the game. You're not Big Boss but really you are because from now on you are Big Boss.

Yeah, because they needed the BB name, the legend associated with it, to continue doing what they were doing.

And Kaz is the only one who disagrees out of, what, thousands of troops? Literally the only reason Kaz leaves is because he got played like a fiddle. Does that really warrant him calling Big Boss a monster in Metal Gear 2?

Play GZ again, Kaz took the loss of mother base the hardest. The guy was raging hard, more so than anyone else.

Then listen to his post credits conversation with Ocelot:

"No..."
"Big Boss can go to hell."
"I'll make the phantom and his sons stronger to send him there."

He was pissed and felt betrayed by the real BB.

You're still glossing over my point that TPP was continuously teasing a story of turning men into demons when the only real thing it did was turn Big Boss into a power fantasy. The "but it's actually Venom Snake" excuse doesn't work because Venom is a player stand-in for Big Boss, and you're still wholly complicit in shaping the "legend", as in, becoming an antagonist in the next two games.

The game does nothing to turn Big Boss into a morally questionable villain, the story that is in place is completely perfunctory and whatever Venom Snake "does" that gains him respect is not compelling enough when he is a non-entity outside of game play.

I was in media blackout with the game, so I had very little in the way of preconceived expectations when playing the game.

 

[LordCanti]

The game does nothing to turn Big Boss into a morally questionable villain, the story that is in place is completely perfunctory and whatever Venom Snake "does" that gains him respect is not compelling enough when he is a non-entity outside of game play.

The marketing definitely wasn't in-sync with what was actually in the game.

Big Boss is a villain if you're the owner of an AI that you'd like to take complete control of the world. If you're anyone else he's kind of just the goofy pervert that is our only hope of stopping the AI before it completely controls the world through nanomachines.

 

[razzmahtazz]

sure but why?

like okay yeah I'm a guy who plays videogames and yeah you put me in as this guy who plays videogames. it was me the wholleeee tiiimeeeee. woo

except what? what's the payoff? are you saying big boss rused me? is that the message? is the message that I continued the meme of big boss by playing the game? and in continuing that meme I played right into his hands? as a distraction? actually when I first finished the game, boss going "YEAH I'M BB BUT ALSO YOU'RE BB WE'RE ALL BB" that got me for a second, sure. But the more i thought about it the more unsatisfying it became. If I was BB the whole time then why didn't anything I do change anything? (Because it can't, obviously). Why were there decisions out of my hands that couldn't change anything? Why was I playing a character in the other games and a deafmute in this one?

it's a conclusion that says something that doesn't mean anything of note but has the appearance of doing so. it's a phantom answer

To me atleast, the message or the point was that you can do the same things that BB has been doing (in the game atleast ex. stopping a metal gear, love blooming on the battlefield, saving the world, all the gameplay stories people have before getting to the twist). And you can now add yourself to the legend of BB because of those stories. The "I did this instead of doing this" kind of stories and their variations. This plus my own little subtheory about Kojima trying to explore gameplay choices rather than narrative choices because of an open world philosophy.

This also works into the meta narrative of Kojima saying goodbye somewhat. "I can't do this on my own anymore" seeing that he was kicked out of MGS series. Its up to you now how the legacy of BB or the legacy of MGS continues. Whether that means to you (supporting the next MGS without him or connecting the threads of the series or whatever) is a personal choice.

 

[NotLiquid]

Play GZ again, Kaz took the loss of mother base the hardest. The guy was raging hard, more so than anyone else.

Then listen to his post credits conversation with Ocelot:

"No..."
"Big Boss can go to hell."
"I'll make the phantom and his sons stronger to send him there."

He was pissed and felt betrayed by the real BB.

Why, cause Big Boss' plan was to use a body double to fully commit to his Outer Heaven on a grander scale? I'm not really buying it, and if Big Boss left him for a few months with a phony (because by the end of the game he still refers to GZ as 9 years ago), it seems like a tiny time frame for him to really care about since the real Big Boss didn't wake up long before Venom did.

I was in media blackout with the game, so I had very little in the way of preconceived expectations when playing the game.

You wouldn't have to not be on a media blackout to know that TPP was going to close the loop on the series. Big Boss being a villain in the MGS series has been known ever since the series' inception and Metal Gear Solid 3 was the one time we got the only background for it we ever needed. Even when you ignore the media and perceived expectations based on the trailers, it's an unsatisfying story that even when taken on it's own merits, meanders in place until it doesn't even end; it just stops.

 

[Spaghetti]

This where we differ. I liked him in 4 and PW. I think the only person that sounds better than him in 4 is Zimmernan.
But if you believe he sucked/got worse/never good, there should still be some blame placed on Kris Zimmernan. Blaustein worked with Hayter closely to come up with a voice for Snake in MGS1 and Zimmerman should have done the same if she wasn't happy with his performance.

voice direction cannot magically fix a cartoonish voice from an actor with limited range. it isn't just the older snake voice that was bad too, hayter screwed the pooch on the voiced version of the digital graphic novel as well. he just can't do it like he used to.

regardless, even if zimmerman does shoulder some blame for letting hayter go too far with how ridiculous the voice got, that still doesn't make hayter an amazing performer who shouldn't have been replaced.

it's an unnatural voice, and getting to the point where it would no longer look appropriate for an increasingly realistic looking character. i don't know what planet people are when they say sutherland was awful, it's night and day in quality, and he actually sounds like a person instead of a contorted vocal chord scraped against a bag of gravel.