Multiple fatalities reported at Umpqua Community College shooting in Oregon

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Luap said:
I lost all hope after Sandy Hook.

There are simply far too many people in this country who are unwilling to give up their guns, despite seeing headlines like this all the fucking time.

Guns are really fun to use. I have no problem admitting that. I've gone target shooting several times with my friends. But I'm totally willing to give all that up if it would make this shit stop.
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I agree.

Sandy Hook was so disgustingly evil and yet we as a nation did nothing to prevent it from happening again. It will happen again too if we continue to sit on our hands like this.

Mass shootings are already 'just another headline' that we expect to see every week. It's fucked up.
 
Gnome Scat said:
Our politicians are pathetic for not acting rationally the first time something of this scale happened. How many lives have we fucking lost because of that and how many more will we have to lose before anything gets done about it?
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they have no care for dying 9/11 first responders, why would they care for the rest of us?
 
Boem said:
Exactly. Why outlaw murder? Murderers don't care.



3. Gun bans aren't constructive to discuss? What? You mean not constructive to your own personal point of view. Are you really trying to just saying it's something nobody should even talk about? You're like a cartoon version of an American when you say stuff like that. Also good job on comparing it to something that has absolutely nothing to do with it, and is especially coming from someone with a completely different ideology. You might as well compare vegetarians to Hitler because they don't think all food should be food.

4. The data definitely supports the anti-gun folks, and countries that have banned guns exist and have been extremely successful. Give us those figures that say otherwise.

5. Look at the Daily Show piece where Jon Oliver went to Australia to see how they dealt with their guns. The situation used to be pretty much the same there as it is now in the US. America is not some magical fairly land. If it really is the home of the free, it should be easier there.

6. Read that sentence back. Really carefully. Think about what you wrote. I guess kids regularly dying over gun violence isn't something worth worrying about, because they haven't reached a certain magical number before it becomes an 'issue'? Is it only something worth worrying about when it threatens you or your family directly?

Your list was weird man.
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You can totally discuss bans all you want. But I'll bet you any amount of money you want, they won't happen. In the very least they're illegal. That's why it's not constructive. We can discuss where Eva Longoria and I are going to dinner tonight as well.

Previous gun laws banned guns based on how scary they've looked, not based on any sort of info on how lethal or how many people have been killed. I.e. the assault weapons ban under Clinton. Legislation typically is aimed at rifles, etc, while handguns are overwhelmingly responsible for shootings and crime.

What works in Australia won't happen in America.

Your average family in the US. What are they concerned about? Jobs, healthcare, crime? Housing, a million issues, that affect them day to day. Affording a new car, making sure the kids have good schools, the price of gas, stuff like that. Shootings don't affect most people. 50 some people were shot in Chicago this weekend, mostly poor and black. I'm not even sure there was a GAF thread for that.

A large amount of people don't even vote...

Allard said:
Then tell the government to first get rid of the 2012 law that literally bans the government from researching anything related to gun use. This is the kind of shit that is driving people to ask for straight bans because the whole system related to how our government treats guns is a travesty.
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Agreed.
 
RIP to the dead.

Before even arguing over new legislation maybe they could try giving the ATF back the tools it needs to do its job effectively.
 
RPGCrazied said:
Do schools not have metal detectors? At least get some guards or something. This seems to happen a lot at schools.
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Every school in Canada I ever attended never had a guard or a metal detector. No mass shootings. And a guard is never going to deter a shooter anyways -- they'll just be the first target.

Reducing the number of guns, and the ease of access to guns is the first big step in reducing the rate of fatalities in America.
 
Really, this is a non-story and will not even register a ripple in the water.

Unless it's a story involving the drug-trade or illegal immigrants, this is not an issue that's going to gain much traction with US politicians or lawmakers.
 
At the very least, I don't understand why we can't get a ban on assault rifles. I mean seriously, I can't think of a single use case where they would be useful other than mass murder. Who hunts with an assault rifle? The fuck are you hunting? Pistols, Rifles, Shotguns, okay sure, I can see some use case. But assault rifles??? Come on.
 
20 children were shot to death in an elementary school 3 years ago. That's children from ages 6-14 years old.

How firearm defenders keep saying "well that's not me, that's other people. I grew up with guns and have a healthy respect for them" is beyond my understanding.

10 people are dead because the amount of people that own guns without a healthy respect for them in the US outnumber those that do.

I feel like the conversation to have at this state isn't "what can the US do about gun regulation?" it's "How do I learn to integrate news about mass shootings in my everyday life?"

That's all speaking as a Canadian
 
nicanica said:
20 children were shot to death in an elementary school 3 years ago. That's children from ages 6-14 years old.

How gun owner's keep saying "well that's not me, that's other people" is beyond my understanding.

I feel like the conversation to have at this state isn't "what can the US do about gun regulation?" it's "How do I learn to integrate news about mass shootings in my everyday life?"

That's all speaking as a Canadian
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:(
 
Delibes said:
Last thing I heard was school is a carry a concealed weapon allowed zone.
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That's what my understanding is too. The school's own policy (below) indicates that it's only authorized by law and the state law says it is legal for CCW.

What really scares the shit out of me are the number of sites claiming the school is gun free. A common myth is pushed that firearm violence occurs more often in gun free zones. They're all far right and pro-gun sites pushing this claim already. The scary part is how fast they work to misinform.

Possession, use, or threatened use of firearms (including but not limited to BB guns, air guns, water pistols, and paint guns) ammunition, explosives, dangerous chemicals, or any other objects as weapons on college property, except as expressly authorized by law or college regulations, is prohibited.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20150316175339/http://umpqua.edu/safety-security-information
 
ChronotriggerJM said:
At the very least, I don't understand why we can't get a ban on assault rifles. I mean seriously, I can't think of a single use case where they would be useful other than mass murder. Who hunts with an assault rifle? The fuck are you hunting? Pistols, Rifles, Shotguns, okay sure, I can see some use case. But assault rifles??? Come on.
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What we should actually ban are handguns.
 
winjet81 said:
Really, this is a non-story and will not even register a ripple in the water.

Unless it's a story involving the drug-trade or illegal immigrants, this is not an issue that's going to gain much traction with US politicians or lawmakers.
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Maybe convince Planned Parenthood to issue a statement on gun control to get lawmakers talking about it again.
 
Drensch said:
What works in Australia won't happen in America.
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Why not? Is America just a more violent place than Australia?

I just get annoyed at the implications of posts like these, which is that these gun rampages are just like, a force of nature and nothing can be done about them so the best you can do is hope not to get caught in the next one.
 
nicanica said:
That's all speaking as a Canadian
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This is looking better and better every time I see it.

sL4qpCd.jpg
 
ssolitare said:
A civilian army would be completely obliterated by both forces.
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Nope.

Switch Back 9 said:
Whoops, thought that was directed at me. And they're definitely tangential. All I'm saying is, if push came to shove, and there was a full on gov-civilian war, without all the nuances and intricacies such a conflict would realistically have, the military would wipe the floor with an armed populace.
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You can't ignore those nuances and intricacies.
This isn't a cage match, with Bobby Citizen against G.I. Joe.

This is a by definition entrenched populace with widespread guns. It's not even clear who has them. In order to find out, you'd have to repeal ANOTHER amendment, one that you guys probably like.

A huge problem for a military in the middle east is that insurgents are intermingled with innocent people. Do you think gun owners in the US are going to make little camps and be easy to take out? No, they're going to be living with their families, with their children. Military teams would have to raid houses and shoot women and children to take their weapons. Meanwhile, bombs are incredibly easy to make using household items.

Such a conflict would be incredibly long and hostile. Meanwhile, the economy is getting destroyed, public sentiment grows against the war (as it always does), media piles up of the military and police killing innocent people, women and children. Soldiers defect en masse and turn on the military. Police do the same. Because it's not a population of boogeymen, it's the people they've grown up with and sworn to protect.

Saying it would be an overwhelming victory for the government ignores all the reasons why the government would inevitably lose. It's like a British general saying how the redcoats are going to clearly annihilate the colonists. I mean, we're talking trained soldiers against a bunch of farmers, right? The world's greatest military against a bunch of rabble? Why does that sound familiar?

----


Ultimately, you can live in fantasy land where banning guns is an option in the foreseeable future, or you can figure out a way to work within the constitution and not start a civil war.
 
This is horrific, and it's a shame that I wanted to write "as usual" after that.

On the issue of gun control, I think there's plenty of room for reforming and increasing the control of firearms. I think there's very little chance of banning firearms -- such little chance that I don't think it's particularly worth discussing unless you can show some evidence of a groundswell of support that would lead to an amendment.

That said, gun control is entirely on the table. Most responsible gun owners already support stronger control measures, even though they are rejected and lobbied against by the NRA. The first step is to call on responsible gun owners to take their voice back from the NRA and to repudiate their extremist views on firearm ownership.

Beyond that, the focus should start with funding and rolling out an easy to use, national, required background check network. Close the loopholes that allow non-reporting. Levy serious fines for entities that don't fulfill their obligations to report, including mental health facilities, hospitals, gun stores, police departments, etc.

And if you're serious about doing something, let me direct you to a number of sites who would be happy to have your work and your money, to lobby on your behalf:

http://americansforresponsiblesolutions.org/
http://csgv.org/
http://everytown.org/
http://faithsagainstgunviolence.org/
http://smartgunlaws.org/
http://momsdemandaction.org/
http://www.vpc.org/
http://www.bradycampaign.org/

You should be able to find a group that fits you, unless you just don't support any sort of gun control at all. Funding and working for these groups may seem like beating your head against a wall, but it's more effective than continually having the same argument about banning guns, ad nauseam.
 
I often think that we, as a species, could come together with our big, critical minds and realize that the second amendment was created in a time that simply doesn't in any way reflect the realities of life in 2015.

It simply outdated in parts. And it's insane to think that a document created in 1787 should hold the United States back from becoming a safer and more prosperous nation as a whole. The founding fathers made a document that made sense in it's time and it serves the nation well. But as time keeps passing and we as a planet keep striving to be more peaceful and more progressive, some of the amendments need to be updated for a modern era.
 
Luap said:
I lost all hope after Sandy Hook.

There are simply far too many people in this country who are unwilling to give up their guns, despite seeing headlines like this all the fucking time.

Guns are really fun to use. I have no problem admitting that. I've gone target shooting several times with my friends. But I'm totally willing to give all that up if it would make this shit stop.
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It's not just that. Have you Youtube'd "False Flag" and "Sandy Hook conspiracy"?

Even the recent news shooting?

An astonishing number of views for nutjobs, I'm talking hundreds of thousands to millions. With overly positive likes.

People truly believe they are so smart and have uncovered government conspiracies.

It always gets me that they uncover an "actor" then point out that they are bad actors who pose as victims, and that these same actors star in multiple conspiracy videos.

People genuinely don't *believe* in these shootings.

Sandy Hook was disgustingly grotesque but was met with equally disgusting conspiracy denialism.

I can't tell if people just REALLY like their guns, or if they just REALLY believe the government and Obama the Muslim Atheist is out to get them.
 
Madrin said:
I think this is the part where he goes, "You know what, I'm done talking about this issue. People believe what they want to believe and they just have knee-jerk reactions to anyone that presents a different point of view."
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Piggus said:
So you guys want me to get into something not related to the issue we're talking about? No thanks, especially when I'm attacked personally for my opinion. You guys have fun.
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15286312089_beb6e0ce84_o.png
 
Seeing some 2nd amendment discussion throughout the thread. There is a great Salon piece published years ago about the 2nd amendment for those interested.

http://www.salon.com/2011/01/15/saul_cornell_guns/

Although the Second Amendment is often invoked in this debate, the dynamics of America’s battle over guns have almost nothing to do with either the historical Second Amendment bequeathed to us by the framers, or even the more individualistic Second Amendment conjured by the present-day Supreme Court of John Roberts in two controversial decisions. The original Second Amendment was the product of a world in which a well-regulated militia stood as check against the danger of a professional standing army. The framers certainly believed in a right of self-defense, but most viewed it as something that was so well-established under the English common law that there was no need to write it into constitutional law. Even among those eager to secure a bill of rights, the dominant view (with a few notable exceptions) was that the right of self-defense was best left to the care of individual states to regulate as part of their criminal law. Even the more expansive modern notion of the Second Amendment popular today (an interpretation endorsed by the Roberts court) permits ample room for reasonable regulation. American courts are still wrestling with how to implement this new model, but most legal schools of thought agree there’s plenty of room for regulation.

If not from the founding generation, where did our modern notions of the Second Amendment come from? A more individualistic conception of the right to bear arms did emerge at the end of the 18th century, and it gained a stronghold in the early decades of the 19th century. The passage of the first true gun control laws in the 19th century, a response to the proliferation of cheap handguns for the first time in American history, actually helped strengthen this new gun rights ideology. Then, as now, gun violence was largely a problem about handguns, not long guns. Not surprisingly, the efforts to ban guns back then led to the first clear defenses of a modern-style Second Amendment right to bear arms unconnected to the militia. Some of the new state laws wound up in state courts, and judges divided over how to interpret them. Some jurists saw them as unconstitutional, while others upheld them. The dysfunctional modern debate over firearms was born out of this struggle and has nothing to do with the original Second Amendment. The notion that regulation is antithetical to the Second Amendment has no basis in history or law. As long as there have been guns in America, guns have been regulated. Even at the height of the Wild West in Dodge City, gun regulation was a fact of life.
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The US has been debating the nature of the 2nd amendment and gun control since the early 1800's. If Sandy Hook wasn't enough for Congressional action I don't what else could instead prompt it.
 
besada said:
This is horrific, and it's a shame that I wanted to write "as usual" after that.

On the issue of gun control, I think there's plenty of room for reforming and increasing the control of firearms. I think there's very little chance of banning firearms -- such little chance that I don't think it's particularly worth discussing unless you can show some evidence of a groundswell of support that would lead to an amendment.

That said, gun control is entirely on the table. Most responsible gun owners already support stronger control measures, even though they are rejected and lobbied against by the NRA. The first step is to call on responsible gun owners to take their voice back from the NRA and to repudiate their extremist views on firearm ownership.

Beyond that, the focus should start with funding and rolling out an easy to use, national, required background check network. Close the loopholes that allow non-reporting. Levy serious fines for entities that don't fulfill their obligations to report, including mental health facilities, hospitals, gun stores, police departments, etc.

And if you're serious about doing something, let me direct you to a number of sites who would be happy to have your work and your money, to lobby on your behalf:

http://americansforresponsiblesolutions.org/
http://csgv.org/
http://everytown.org/
http://faithsagainstgunviolence.org/
http://smartgunlaws.org/
http://momsdemandaction.org/
http://www.vpc.org/
http://www.bradycampaign.org/

You should be able to find a group that fits you, unless you just don't support any sort of gun control at all. Funding and working for these groups may seem like beating your head against a wall, but it's more effective than continually having the same argument about banning guns, ad nauseam.
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Thanks you for the list of sites.

I for one am so tired about this argument, although while I agree with your point on the lack of support - I still have hope for a total ban one day.
 
I've looked at the gaming gear in Lanza's bedroom. It's all too old to be used by a kid in 2012-13. The Xbox 360 is from 2005, the games are all the same vintage or older. If we would believe the media, this computer whizz sat playing seven year old shooter games? And didn't get any new machines? From a doting mother? It doesn't fit. Ask anyone who has a kid over 13.

http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2015/05/adam-lanza-fictional-perpetrator-of.html

This is the insane depth some people will go to to convince themselves why the American populace must be armed to the teeth - to protect us from the big, bad government.
 
timetokill said:
Nope.



You can't ignore those nuances and intricacies.
This isn't a cage match, with Bobby Citizen against G.I. Joe.

This is a by definition entrenched populace with widespread guns. It's not even clear who has them. In order to find out, you'd have to repeal ANOTHER amendment, one that you guys probably like.

A huge problem for a military in the middle east is that insurgents are intermingled with innocent people. Do you think gun owners in the US are going to make little camps and be easy to take out? No, they're going to be living with their families, with their children. Military teams would have to raid houses and shoot women and children to take their weapons. Meanwhile, bombs are incredibly easy to make using household items.

Such a conflict would be incredibly long and hostile. Meanwhile, the economy is getting destroyed, public sentiment grows against the war (as it always does), media piles up of the military and police killing innocent people, women and children. Soldiers defect en masse and turn on the military. Police do the same. Because it's not a population of boogeymen, it's the people they've grown up with and sworn to protect.

Saying it would be an overwhelming victory for the government ignores all the reasons why the government would inevitably lose. It's like a British general saying how the redcoats are going to clearly annihilate the colonists. I mean, we're talking trained soldiers against a bunch of farmers, right? The world's greatest military against a bunch of rabble? Why does that sound familiar?
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Well yes, and again those are all excellent reasons on why it could not and will not ever happen. But the people spouting off this nonsense are not looking at it with the same critical eye you are. To them, it's "me vs gov't" and "I'll win cuz I got a pistol".
 
I want to say this incite something to happen about gun laws, but I'll probably just be proved wrong again. So sad and my heart goes out to the families and those injured.
 
Madrin said:
I think this is the part where he goes, "You know what, I'm done talking about this issue. People believe what they want to believe and they just have knee-jerk reactions to anyone that presents a different point of view."
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You called it. Reminds me of Manos. Just a matter of time until he's finally banned for his predictable antics.
 
I'm seeing conflicting reports about whether or not this was a gun free school or one that allowed concealed carry. Really sick of seeing the "this wouldn't happen if we had more guns" argument on my feed, so would like to know if I can shut down the more disgusting comments with a real life scenario.
 
diffusionx said:
Why not? Is America just a more violent place than Australia?

I just get annoyed at the implications of posts like these, which is that these gun rampages are just like, a force of nature and nothing can be done about them so the best you can do is hope not to get caught in the next one.
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The problem is with the historical value of the constitution.

The majority of lawmakers believe we CAN'T give up the right to own guns because it'll weaken the "soul" of a piece of paper drawn up 228 years ago.

It has a "Bible Complex". Regardless if the whole purpose of that one amendment is now totally obsolete and detrimental to society in general, to alter one of the original amendments would seen as weakening the whole document. So these idiots blindly defend it's existence, even to their own doom.
 
besada said:
And if you're serious about doing something, let me direct you to a number of sites who would be happy to have your work and your money, to lobby on your behalf:

http://americansforresponsiblesolutions.org/
http://csgv.org/
http://everytown.org/
http://faithsagainstgunviolence.org/
http://smartgunlaws.org/
http://momsdemandaction.org/
http://www.vpc.org/
http://www.bradycampaign.org/

You should be able to find a group that fits you, unless you just don't support any sort of gun control at all. Funding and working for these groups may seem like beating your head against a wall, but it's more effective than continually having the same argument about banning guns, ad nauseam.
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Thanks for this. Going to research a group to donate to.
 
Hoje0308 said:
I'm seeing conflicting reports about whether or not this was a gun free school or one that allowed concealed carry. Really sick of seeing the "this wouldn't happen if we had more guns" argument on my feed, so would like to know if I can shut down the more disgusting comments with a real life scenario.
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Even police aren't very accurate. That was always a dumb argument.
 
Hoje0308 said:
I'm seeing conflicting reports about whether or not this was a gun free school or one that allowed concealed carry. Really sick of seeing the "this wouldn't happen if we had more guns" argument on my feed, so would like to know if I can shut down the more disgusting comments with a real life scenario.
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Apparently it allowed concealed carry for a short time then went back to gun free.
 
The big bad government made up of civilians would fight civilians who make up the government. If I hold my breath long enough it might make sense.
 
besada said:
And if you're serious about doing something, let me direct you to a number of sites who would be happy to have your work and your money, to lobby on your behalf:

http://americansforresponsiblesolutions.org/
http://csgv.org/
http://everytown.org/
http://faithsagainstgunviolence.org/
http://smartgunlaws.org/
http://momsdemandaction.org/
http://www.vpc.org/
http://www.bradycampaign.org/

You should be able to find a group that fits you, unless you just don't support any sort of gun control at all. Funding and working for these groups may seem like beating your head against a wall, but it's more effective than continually having the same argument about banning guns, ad nauseam.
Click to expand...

Thank you for this list.
 
diffusionx said:
Why not? Is America just a more violent place than Australia?

I just get annoyed at the implications of posts like these, which is that these gun rampages are just like, a force of nature and nothing can be done about them so the best you can do is hope not to get caught in the next one.
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The population of Australia is estimated to be 23,843,000 as of 14 May 2015. Australia is the 52nd most populous country in the world. Its population is concentrated mainly in urban areas and is expected to exceed 28 million by 2030.


Let's start with that.
 
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