I like how you ignore Obama happening at all when you say this.
Democratic National Primary Debate #1 |Tokyo2016| Rise of Mecha-Godzilla
- Thread starter B-Dubs
- Start date
- Status
I like how you ignore Obama happening at all when you say this.
UltimaPooh
Member
Which is good. Obamas message was we can do this but we need to work together. Which is nice and all only if the other side isn't insane.
Bernie's is more of... Ask what your country can do for you AND ask what you can do for your country by getting out there in the millions and getting rid of this insane congress.
metalslimer
Member
Sanders doesn't have anywhere near the charisma to do that. Election Obama was the most charismatic political figure of our generation and patience just fizzles when things don't get done immediately
Interfectum
Member
Sanders and Clinton did great. Regardless of who you think "won" it's amazing how this debate fucking destroyed the republican debates so far. It feels like we are at the adult table now.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Every response to Obama's presidency is just "if he was more liberal then ____ would have happend"
Ignoring the fact that the 69 million people who voted for him were mostly comprised of people who identified themselves as moderates.
benjipwns
Banned
For all the Cooper praise, I thought he did some weirdass things in the debate. There was one instance where Webb was rambling about China and then he went to Sanders "your name was mentioned, care to respond?"
And he looked at Webb and Webb looked back and they were both stumped, so Sanders just started talking about something else.
Also lol at his "there will be no gotcha questions" and then starting the debate with a bunch of them.
And he looked at Webb and Webb looked back and they were both stumped, so Sanders just started talking about something else.
Also lol at his "there will be no gotcha questions" and then starting the debate with a bunch of them.
TheLaughingStock
Member
So people shouldn't have voted for Obama according to your rationale?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
letting hrc escape on #blm was also frustrating
AnotherDayAnotherDollar
Banned
I'm still laughing at Chafee's blunder lol. Chafee and Webb are done.
O'Malley actually got some very nice things to say. I'm gonna keep an eye on him.
Sanders really struggled with the gun question and russian question. I was actually cringing at that time...his answer on democratic socialism was also not great. He needs to brush up on those things. Great answer on "Black Lives Matter", "We are all tired of your damn emails", and when it came to his strength, dude really shined. Really liked his authenticity.
Clinton brought up the "I'm a woman" like 3 or 4 times and I can't help but roll my eyes every single time. Also lots of no answers from her, I felt. I do feel she was more authentic and less robotic than she was in the past, that's a plus for me.
It's also good that I saw who most of the Sanders and Clinton hardcore fans are on this forum. That's a good thing to know.
Overall, good debate, much better than the immaturity at the GOP debate.
O'Malley actually got some very nice things to say. I'm gonna keep an eye on him.
Sanders really struggled with the gun question and russian question. I was actually cringing at that time...his answer on democratic socialism was also not great. He needs to brush up on those things. Great answer on "Black Lives Matter", "We are all tired of your damn emails", and when it came to his strength, dude really shined. Really liked his authenticity.
Clinton brought up the "I'm a woman" like 3 or 4 times and I can't help but roll my eyes every single time. Also lots of no answers from her, I felt. I do feel she was more authentic and less robotic than she was in the past, that's a plus for me.
It's also good that I saw who most of the Sanders and Clinton hardcore fans are on this forum. That's a good thing to know.
Overall, good debate, much better than the immaturity at the GOP debate.
NormalFish
Banned
Just to your point about minimum wage, I live in a florida college town and 15$/hr is pretty close to a living wage. in SF I imagine it to be significantly under a living wage.
I think the motivation would have to be all cell phones ceasing to function until scanning a unique QR code on your ballot.
metalslimer
Member
No it's an argument as to why many liberals see the current political climate as a slow battle
I am as skeptical of Bernie as anyone but I do think that his argument about Obama's failure to use his momentum to galvanize support for key legislation is a legitimate one.
As Jon Stewart put it years ago he campaigned as a visionary but governed like a functionary. If you were to dig deep into Obama's beliefs and policy you could see this was going to be the case but for a significant percentage of his supporters they only saw the visionary.
He had this huge audience ready to go out and move mountains for him but he never took advantage. When he started governing like a beltway functionary he deflated the passion of a lot of supporters and he has never recuperated.
metalslimer
Member
To be honest if you look at what Obama was offering he wasn't even remotely a far left candidate.
I don't remember Obama doing that well in midterms.
NullPointer
Member
I think people care, they just don't know what to DO, and so that care fizzles out. The cycle repeats and we all get numb to the care & fizzle loop, punctuated by shills on the cable news.
And telling them to donate money is a non-answer. Telling them to vote every two years isn't an answer either if the candidates they actually believe in aren't considered viable, or that they should hold their nose and vote along establishment lines or else everyone is fucked.
That's a formula for apathy and the status quo if I've ever seen one.
benjipwns
Banned
Regarding people wondering about Webb getting so much time, his being close to O'Malley's is what you would ideally be looking for based on their polling. Those two have both peaked around 3% at times, and Webb has been longer at 2% than O'Malley has in the last six months.
Chafee arguably should have received his opening and closing statements and that's it considering he usually polls at 0.0% about 95% of the time. But they won't do that to Lindsey Graham either, so I guess that's fair.
Them each getting half the time of the two front-runners and Chafee getting a third of the time is a reasonably fair distribution of time where the networks want to maximize the time of the big names at the expense of even debate.
Chafee arguably should have received his opening and closing statements and that's it considering he usually polls at 0.0% about 95% of the time. But they won't do that to Lindsey Graham either, so I guess that's fair.
Them each getting half the time of the two front-runners and Chafee getting a third of the time is a reasonably fair distribution of time where the networks want to maximize the time of the big names at the expense of even debate.
gutter_trash
Banned
the repearl of Glass-Steagall contributed to the recklessness that caused 2008's crash
Bubba signed on the dotted line
Bubba signed on the dotted line
Officerrob
Banned
Yeah, because Bernie will drive more people to the midterms than Obama...
And_Gignac
Member
Obama was a great step in the right direction. Sadly, by 2010, his image as a progressive/newcomer was damaged already.
Also, the circumstances are totally different. There wasnt the current hunger for outsiders last time around.
I just feel like 2016 will be an slaughter with Clinton in charge. Specially after 12 years of mainstream-centrist democrats domination.
User 463088
Banned
Obama did exactly what Hillary said he would do. You do not govern as a visionary. The act of governing requires realistic expectations and goals. A lot of Obama's supporters simply didn't understand the nuances of how things get done. I see a lot of Sanders supporters saying the exact same things. This time, though, it will be different, because reasons. The second a hypothetical President Sanders agrees to a $10 minimum wage instead of a $15 minimum wage, some of his supporters will freak the hell out.
It seems to me as though the argument has shifted from what we can realistically hope to achieve to "Well, the GOP is going to be assholes, so let's pretend like we can get everything we've ever wanted because why the hell not?" That's not how it works. I honestly don't know what the GOP wants anymore. I don't think they know what they want anymore either.
Its amazing how poor hillarys answer was on libya. Lets assume that its actually Americas business to go out and be the savior for people with the misfortune to live in these troublespots. If youre going to do that, you gotta be able to do it well. And its clear that the policy wonk doesnt actually pay attention to the details when it comes time to jump into these foreign conflicts.
She said gaddafi was threatening to massacre large amounts of people. He said no such thing, in fact said the opposite, and in any case had not committed such massacres in any other cities he had taken.
She then says that our allies pushed us into action, as if our allies should be running us instead of the other way around. The chief diplomat here essentially admitting to being railroaded into a war by the deadbeat, deadweight europeans. Hopefully for her sake they never ask her to jump off a cliff.
Obama had her pegged in 08. Experience is no substitute for judgment, and her judgment has only gotten worse since iraq. She needs a tougher challenge on fp.
She said gaddafi was threatening to massacre large amounts of people. He said no such thing, in fact said the opposite, and in any case had not committed such massacres in any other cities he had taken.
She then says that our allies pushed us into action, as if our allies should be running us instead of the other way around. The chief diplomat here essentially admitting to being railroaded into a war by the deadbeat, deadweight europeans. Hopefully for her sake they never ask her to jump off a cliff.
Obama had her pegged in 08. Experience is no substitute for judgment, and her judgment has only gotten worse since iraq. She needs a tougher challenge on fp.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Didn't care for the debate one bit. No charisma outside of Hillary and tons of "you changed X policy only when it was politically expedient" Snooze. When is the next GOP debate?
In the primary or in the general? Either one doesn't matter because dems held Congress during that election.
Carnby
Member
Yeah but they were great for a lot of us. Guess who?
Team Alucard
Banned
Clinton did support a lot of legislation that wouldn't jive with the mainstream left in the present.
The thing is, he's probably the most beloved living political figure in america. If you're a democrat, distancing yourself from him is a losing strategy.
Escape Goat
Member
The senior members of Congress sold Chaffee an elevator pass on his first day.
gutter_trash
Banned
I love Bill but that that signature on that dotted line was one of his biggest mistakes
benjipwns
Banned
October 28th on CNBC.
November 10th on Fox Business.
December 15th on CNN in VEGAS.
Next Democratic debates are:
November 14th on CBS.
December 19th on ABC.
That's the whole point isn't it? These cults of personalities don't turn into midterm turnout. It particularly won't happen when the "savior" has had to compromise and deal with an adversarial Congress for two years that will disillusion his supporters.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
This is my takeaway.
ShadowKingpin
Member
Bernie owned all ass in that debate!! Far more enjoyable than any GOP debate with racism and garbage.
User 463088
Banned
Were we alive during the same 2008 election? There was a hunger for outsiders. Obama was able to pretend to be an outsider, while being a true establishment candidate. Sanders has been in Washington since Hillary got there. He's no more an outsider than I'm a fairy princess. In all his long time in Congress, he's gotten less than zero aspects of his agenda passed. He's made no progress on any of his great ideas. Now, he wants to lead the Democratic Party? Okay.
Also, and I know this is kinda hard for some to understand, centrist Democrats win elections, because, that's where the majority of the electorate is. We've won 5 out of the last 6 popular votes in the Presidential election. More people voted for a Democratic House than a Republican one. Only Democrats would call for changing what's working.
We do this every so many years. We suddenly think we have to lurch to the left for reasons unknown. It never, ever works. It won't work in 2016 either.
AnathemicOne
Banned
I'm really enjoying Sanders and O'Malley so far (watching Highlights since I couldn't catch it during stream). Hillary did better than I expected so there's that, can't say much for the other two however.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Thanks.
gutter_trash
Banned
tonight I learned that Bernie Sanders voted against the Brady Bill
USA will always been a river of guns
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-tough-guns/story?id=34446690
USA will always been a river of guns
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-tough-guns/story?id=34446690
Basileus777
Member
You say that like it's a high bar.
Here's a clip of Chafee's response to the Glass-steagall vote lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkcAeEhtCbU
Yeah I misread that but I think it has less to do with Obama and more to do with the economy tanking, and I have a hard time seeing Bernie himself being some guarantee of a lost midterm when milleinials won't show up for Hillary either.
Vire
Member
Yeah, I know. I enjoy it so much more when there's loads of casual racism and mud shit slinging that devolve into a carnival of stupid.
Hello there, reading tomorrow afternoon.
Jim Webb makes the same face thinking about murdering a dude as most people do when observing some fine ass.
Im a pragmatist to my core but I firmly believe that Obama wasted an incredible opportunity by trying so hard to emulate Lincoln's Team of Rivals personality and wanting to be the great moderate that bridged the parties. It was a strategy that was doomed from the outset given those he was trying to persuade.
His insistence on that strategy in spite of overwhelming evidence it was futile led to compromised legislation, a support base that grew apathetic, a party that splintered and ultimately losing control of congress for the remainder of his presidency.
Hillary seems to be angling a governing strategy that looks like a more refined Obama strategy of playing the middle ground and going it alone when necessary.
Bernie seems to have clearly taken some lessons form the Obama failures and is angling his presidential strategy toward classic populist strategies like those Obama used(except wanting to carry them over to governing) and dare I say a bit of Rovian tactics to go along with it.
The more I see of each the less certain I am of which governing strategy would be more effective. If Bernie's strategy could bear fruit it would be an incredible progression for America but the pragmatist in me still has severe doubts.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
I know you are joking, but those sociopaths really know how to entertain. This one was a snooze and whine fest.
Holy crap. What a hack.
AnotherDayAnotherDollar
Banned
I feel Clinton was "winning" in the 1st 1/3. Sanders really struggled with the guns, Russia, and even defining "democratic socialism".
Sanders "won" the 2nd 2/3 of the debate. Clinton struggled with some her non answers and "I'm a woman" as a differentiator.
O'Malley was consistent throughout and the other two guys were there for the occasional fun and laughter.
This is comedy gold lol
EDIT: Didn't hear at the time about his dad passing, I feel for him for that, but still not a valid answer.
- Status