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[120v]

it seemed like hillary's campaign officially kicked off tonight, which is what needed to happen. in that regard i think she "won"

 

[Team Alucard]

Chafee literally answered that question in the worst way possible. That was worse than Hillary's "I voted for it, but I hoped that it wouldn't pass" from 2008.

 

[zoozilla]

Obama did exactly what Hillary said he would do. You do not govern as a visionary. The act of governing requires realistic expectations and goals. A lot of Obama's supporters simply didn't understand the nuances of how things get done. I see a lot of Sanders supporters saying the exact same things. This time, though, it will be different, because reasons. The second a hypothetical President Sanders agrees to a $10 minimum wage instead of a $15 minimum wage, some of his supporters will freak the hell out.

It seems to me as though the argument has shifted from what we can realistically hope to achieve to "Well, the GOP is going to be assholes, so let's pretend like we can get everything we've ever wanted because why the hell not?" That's not how it works. I honestly don't know what the GOP wants anymore. I don't think they know what they want anymore either.

So what's the functional difference between Hillary and Bernie as president? Obama was a moderate - you want a guy willing to work both sides of the aisle, he was the guy. He still faced solid Republican opposition on damn near everything. This is a Congress that seems hell-bent on passing as little legislation as humanly possible.

Hillary's presenting herself as a more liberal candidate, and she has to considering the current political climate. She doesn't even really need to position herself as much of a moderate in the general election since the Republican candidates are all bat-shit crazy. But the GOP will still control the House and the Senate. What will she actually get done that won't be a severely watered-down version of her policy goals?

If Hillary is Prez, it'll probably be pretty similar to Bill Clinton's run. And people will go, "Thank god, at least Congress is making laws again." But Bill was a centrist, through and through. He loosened regulations all over the place in the name of "compromise." At the time, that seemed fine. But with the benefit of hindsight his policies have proven to be more of an extension of Reagan's corporate love than any progressive agenda. His policies actually damaged the economy in the long-run.

Will Bernie Sanders have to compromise if he's president? Of course. Will he compromise less than Hillary? Probably. Is that a good thing? I think so.

If Hillary wins the primary, of course I'm going to vote for her. I'd be an idiot not to. And she may very well be a great president. But given her history and the Clinton legacy in general, I'm afraid that she can do long-term damage (or fail to take enough action) in the pursuit of compromise and pragmatism.

This is a long post late at night, it might not make sense. But I hope you can see my point?

 

[Indicate]

Holy crap. What a hack.

This is comedy gold lol

Check out O'Malley and Bernie @ 0:18- 0:21. Priceless.

 

[Jonm1010]

Were we alive during the same 2008 election? There was a hunger for outsiders. Obama was able to pretend to be an outsider, while being a true establishment candidate. Sanders has been in Washington since Hillary got there. He's no more an outsider than I'm a fairy princess. In all his long time in Congress, he's gotten less than zero aspects of his agenda passed. He's made no progress on any of his great ideas. Now, he wants to lead the Democratic Party? Okay.

Also, and I know this is kinda hard for some to understand, centrist Democrats win elections, because, that's where the majority of the electorate is. We've won 5 out of the last 6 popular votes in the Presidential election. More people voted for a Democratic House than a Republican one. Only Democrats would call for changing what's working.

We do this every so many years. We suddenly think we have to lurch to the left for reasons unknown. It never, ever works. It won't work in 2016 either.

Lets also be honest here if we are talking about the electorate. Democrats have struggled heavily to get people out to vote in non-election years. Leading to Republican gains and structural inroads that secure electorate advantages.

What evidence do we have that Hillary can buck that trend? I see no indications from her strategy and the lack of enthusiasm from her base that she will be able to secure congressional inroads during her first midterm.

At least with Bernie he is offering ideas on how to achieve it. Are they workable? Realistic? Im not very certain but they are worth discussing.

 

[Moofers]

Sorry if this is old but Luntz focus group says Bernie won tonight. Make of that what you will.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/luntz-focus-group-says-sanders-won/article/2574070

 

[User 463088]

Im a pragmatist to my core but I firmly believe that Obama wasted an incredible opportunity by trying so hard to emulate Lincoln's Team of Rivals personality and wanting to be the great moderate that bridged the parties. It was a strategy that was doomed from the outset given those he was trying to persuade.

His insistence on that strategy in spite of overwhelming evidence it was futile led to compromised legislation, a support base that grew apathetic, a party that splintered and ultimately losing control of congress for the remainder of his presidency.

Hillary seems to be angling a governing strategy that looks like a more refined Obama strategy of playing the middle ground and going it alone when necessary.

Bernie seems to have clearly taken some lessons form the Obama failures and is angling his presidential strategy toward classic populist strategies like those Obama used(except wanting to carry them over to governing) and dare I say a bit of Rovian tactics to go along with it.

The more I see of each the less certain I am of which governing strategy would be more effective. If Bernie's strategy could bear fruit it would be an incredible progression for America but the pragmatist in me still has severe doubts.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that Obama made some huge mistakes from the get go. He worked under the idea that the GOP would work with him because he won a mandate. The problem is, the GOP only believes in mandates when they win 50.1% of the vote. He was, as Hillary often accused him during the primaries, as a bit naive. (Remember her "The sky will open, the clouds will part and everyone will just do the right thing." Obama kept acting as though he had to give in to every GOP demand and then they'd like him enough to govern. It was never going to happen. They made it clear they wanted him to fail from day one.

The problem was Obama's supporters, for some reason, thought he wouldn't do this. I'm not sure why, as he is as pragmatic as the next one. The moment they didn't get everything they wanted, they just gave up. The good became the enemy of the perfect, and they just stayed home. I think part of it comes from a real lack of understanding how basic politics works.

The risk with Sanders is that he seems to be extremely set in his positions. That's fine. But is he going to be willing to accept a $10 minimum wage? Would he rather stand in the way of incremental progress to appease his ideological purity? Because if he doesn't, he's going to get the same brush as Obama. If he doesn't compromise, then electing him is as useful as ice in a blizzard. He's pointless at that point.

 

[lastflowers]

I think people care, they just don't know what to DO, and so that care fizzles out. The cycle repeats and we all get numb to the care & fizzle loop, punctuated by shills on the cable news.

And telling them to donate money is a non-answer. Telling them to vote every two years isn't an answer either if the candidates they actually believe in aren't considered viable, or that they should hold their nose and vote along establishment lines or else everyone is fucked.

That's a formula for apathy and the status quo if I've ever seen one.

yep

 

[rex]

Whenever i hear (some) democrats asked about whistleblowers like edward snowden i get the impression theyr eager to make up for all the times republicans called them hippie loving peaceniks by showing how strong they can be on "national security."

O'malley sounded positively deranged, repeating the canard about him running to russia

Clinton painted herself as that mythical person, who exists only for rhetorical purposes, who would have totally supported snowden if he wouldve only gone about this in a way guaranteed to produce no results.

Maybe snowden winds up behind bars. I sincerely hope not. But no one can quibble with his tactics in terms of impact. Hes been an extremely effective whistleblower and privacy advocate and has produced tangible results.

Hillary and Martin regurgitated pure nonsense on that question.

 

[OuterLimits]

As a Conservative, I thought Bernie did the best but Clinton held her own and did well enough. Clinton weakest point was the Keystone Pipeline where she kind of gave a hilarious answer. Something like I had no position on pipeline until I had a position. Same with the trade deal, which was a rather weak defense of her change in position.

Bernie weakest moment was when he was on defensive about gun control. Granted, his position is more realistic perhaps, but Clinton was clearly in attack mode there.

I did think she did a good trying to be progressive but give herself enough wiggle room to move to the center in the general.

Martin O Malley had some decent moments as well. Webb and Chaffee were terrible.

Bernie may gain some in polls, but Clinton will destroy him in the South especially, so it really doesn't matter.

 

[120v]

So what's the functional difference between Hillary and Bernie as president? Obama was a moderate - you want a guy willing to work both sides of the aisle, he was the guy. He still faced solid Republican opposition on damn near everything. This is a Congress that seems hell-bent on passing as little legislation as humanly possible.

Hillary's presenting herself as a more liberal candidate, and she has to considering the current political climate. She doesn't even really need to position herself as much of a moderate in the general election since the Republican candidates are all bat-shit crazy. But the GOP will still control the House and the Senate. What will she actually get done that won't be a severely watered-down version of her policy goals?

If Hillary is Prez, it'll probably be pretty similar to Bill Clinton's run. And people will go, "Thank god, at least Congress is making laws again." But Bill was a centrist, through and through. He loosened regulations all over the place in the name of "compromise." At the time, that seemed fine. But with the benefit of hindsight his policies have proven to be more of an extension of Reagan's corporate love than any progressive agenda. His policies actually damaged the economy in the long-run.

Will Bernie Sanders have to compromise if he's president? Of course. Will he compromise less than Hillary? Probably. Is that a good thing? I think so.

If Hillary wins the primary, of course I'm going to vote for her. I'd be an idiot not to. And she may very well be a great president. But given her history and the Clinton legacy in general, I'm afraid that she can do long-term damage (or fail to take enough action) in the pursuit of compromise and pragmatism.

This is a long post late at night, it might not make sense. But I hope you can see my point?

the 90s were a different time. as the early-mid '10s are a different time and the later decade will be. i mean, maybe congress will stay red and it'll be business as usual, but for the first time in a decade they can't really run on "nobama" anymore and as the speaker situation is showing there's some serious cracks in their foundation. i don't think it's too pie in the sky optimistic to suggest things will turn around for the next pres

 

[Elfforkusu]

Jim Webb makes the same face thinking about murdering a dude as most people do when observing some fine ass.

:lol

 

[harSon]

Jim Webb makes the same face thinking about murdering a dude as most people do when observing some fine ass.

that's the face of a winner bruh

 

[Foffy]

I was only being half-facetious. I've pondered ideas along these lines for a while now and do think there is amazing potential.

Maybe what we have is a result of collective isolation? Most people already feel that unless have paper, your voice doesn't matter, and a lot of the young generation is lucky enough if they can even hit half of what their parents could attain. Couple this with the social media "I'm connected to disconnected others" and you have a melting pot where you may have a group of people that fails to realize they can arrange themselves as a collective, but instead feel like an isolated, standalone person. And anybody who stands up to any issue by themselves is often looked at as a fringe crazy. This is a result of social concepts that infer division in a nature that itself is a unified happening. More people literally see the world in the former lens, even if it's unaccountable in every way of common understanding with the reality of the latter.

Who complains about poverty, unless those in it? They unify because they make that connection they are a group. By doing it with computers, in many ways, it stays as a group bound by computers. It does indeed have to be more than this, and people need to be empowered to do more than that, too.

 

[Gattsu25]

Jim Webb makes the same face thinking about murdering a dude as most people do when observing some fine ass.

Hahaha

 

[Dennis]

Bernie won, right?

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Had to braodcast a city council meeting that went 5 hours, so I missed the debate, but about to watch the rebroadcast of it.

Sounds like there wasn't a clear huge winner, but the polls following it will show how much the casual person is able to connect to Bernie, this is one of his first really national opportunities to be in this position to give his pitch. Campaign is different from having opponents standing right next to you. We shall see if he gets a bump.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Hillary's answer to the Obama third term question and maternity leave and Planned Parenthood are the reasons why Clinton is the best Democratic candidate to take on the Republicans.

Bernie will be a great cabinet member, especially an economic one.

 

[benjipwns]

Im a pragmatist to my core but I firmly believe that Obama wasted an incredible opportunity by trying so hard to emulate Lincoln's Team of Rivals personality and wanting to be the great moderate that bridged the parties. It was a strategy that was doomed from the outset given those he was trying to persuade.

Also because he didn't really understand the concept. Hillary was the only "rival" he brought in unless you count Vilsack. Really, he didn't have any fucking rivals like Lincoln did in the wake of the 1860 Convention.

He rebuffed his own parties and the GOPs Congressional leaders from the start. And Reid used to be in his camp and pushed him (along with Kennedy) to run for President.

So he almost wound up like Carter except Rahm was there to send out some dead fish.

 

[User 463088]

Bernie won, right?

No. Hillary edged him out or, at best, you could call it a tie.

 

[benjipwns]

Bernie won, right?

The VietCong did. Again.

 

[Maxim726X]

Bernie won, right?

No, Hillary did.

She will be the democratic nominee.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Bernie won, right?

we wont know until the polls

(probably)

by cnn's focus group he won, which is the only non-self-selecting sample we have

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Rzr3aVGTE

but obviously tiny sample size

 

[Jonm1010]

I agree wholeheartedly with you that Obama made some huge mistakes from the get go. He worked under the idea that the GOP would work with him because he won a mandate. The problem is, the GOP only believes in mandates when they win 50.1% of the vote. He was, as Hillary often accused him during the primaries, as a bit naive. (Remember her "The sky will open, the clouds will part and everyone will just do the right thing." Obama kept acting as though he had to give in to every GOP demand and then they'd like him enough to govern. It was never going to happen. They made it clear they wanted him to fail from day one.

The problem was Obama's supporters, for some reason, thought he wouldn't do this. I'm not sure why, as he is as pragmatic as the next one. The moment they didn't get everything they wanted, they just gave up. The good became the enemy of the perfect, and they just stayed home. I think part of it comes from a real lack of understanding how basic politics works.

The risk with Sanders is that he seems to be extremely set in his positions. That's fine. But is he going to be willing to accept a $10 minimum wage? Would he rather stand in the way of incremental progress to appease his ideological purity? Because if he doesn't, he's going to get the same brush as Obama. If he doesn't compromise, then electing him is as useful as ice in a blizzard. He's pointless at that point.

In terms of Obama I think a lot of his supporters saw the visionary, the "change we can believe in" candidate. The idealist they could project their ideas onto. An image he clearly and deliberately played into. But when he took the costume off and revealed the well-intentioned moderate he was underneath, a lot of people became a bit disillusioned and lost motivation.

I think Bernie, unlike Obama, would not be naive enough to expect Republicans to act as honest brokers. He also has established an understanding of the power of the bully pulpit and how to frame a strategy to galvanize enthusiasm that I think Obama lacked his first term. Which comes from his political savvy and experience.

You bring up a good point about Bernie's willingness to compromise and how he will confront the inevitable walls he will face. I think it a legitimate concern.

As someone who listened to Bernie for years before his candidacy on the Thom Hartmann show(when I was a much younger and idealistic liberal), Bernie has a political IQ and savviness to him that I think people aren't appreciating right now. But even then he has never had to govern like he would as president.

 

[ShadowKingpin]

I feel Clinton was "winning" in the 1st 1/3. Sanders really struggled with the guns, Russia, and even defining "democratic socialism".

Sanders "won" the 2nd 2/3 of the debate. Clinton struggled with some her non answers and "I'm a woman" as a differentiator.

O'Malley was consistent throughout and the other two guys were there for the occasional fun and laughter.


This is comedy gold lol

EDIT: Didn't hear at the time about his dad passing, I feel for him for that, but still not a valid answer.

Yeah, his Russia response worried me, but I feel that his explanation of Democratic Socialism wasn't THAT bad. It wasn't good, but it wasn't awful. I think he was nervous at first and began stumbling over his words. Once he got his moment, it was amazing.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

In the primary or in the general? Either one doesn't matter because dems held Congress during that election.

When Dems lost the midterms that following election

 

[Meowster]

Bernie won, right?

Most publications are calling it for Hillary.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The VietCong did. Again.

Nah, Senator Webb killed them too.

 

[Foffy]

Yeah, his Russia response worried me, but I feel that his explanation of Democratic Socialism wasn't THAT bad. It wasn't good, but it wasn't awful. I think he was nervous at first and began stumbling over his words. Once he got his moment, it was amazing.

He should have taken the time to call out Hillary's vapid American exceptionalist remark to justify why we have an empirically more unequal society compared to every other democratic socialist nation on earth.

I was so disgusted to see that bullshit and it being left untouched. It's depraved comments that like that which fail to accept one reality: we're middle of the road in many ways, especially in humanistic principles. We can, should, and fucking need to do better than where we're at, and discrediting better nations at these issues than us is not an okay approach in the slightest.

 

[ShadowKingpin]

Bernie won, right?

The winner so far according to the online polls is Bernie by a landslide (75-85%). The publications will have a different choice (Hillary) and that was inevitable.

 

[Zornack]

He should have taken the time to call out Hillary's vapid American exceptionalist to justify why we have an empirically more unequal society compared to every other democratic socialist nation on earth.

I was so disgusted to see that bullshit and it being left untouched. It's depraved comments that like that which fail to accept one reality: we're middle of the road in many ways, especially in humanistic principles.

Disagreeing with the concept of American exceptionalism is a great way to get elected.

 

[Foffy]

Disagreeing with the concept of American exceptionalism is a great way to get elected.

I know we're a nation of idiots, but a dose of realism is in order to the society that infers a cosmic monarchy while believing the best form of government is democratic. Or else we'll be left with some dumb, unexamined ideas.

 

[gcubed]

The winner so far according to the online polls is Bernie by a landslide (75-85%). The publications will have a different choice (Hillary) and that was inevitable.

Online polls are worth the same as toilet paper after I wiped my ass with it.

You can continue to be a victim of the big bad media, but don't use "the online polls" as proof

 

[Jonm1010]

Yeah, his Russia response worried me, but I feel that his explanation of Democratic Socialism wasn't THAT bad. It wasn't good, but it wasn't awful. I think he was nervous at first and began stumbling over his words. Once he got his moment, it was amazing.

I think Bernie really needs to sit down with his team and come up with some serious strategies toward foreign policy. It really does concern me. It always has. He was and has always been good at pointing out problems with our foreign policy but has been light on detailed, realistic ideas on how to improve it. Similar to Ron Paul years back.

As someone that seems to be so structured, concise and easily digestible with his narrative and message. A very strong one at that. He has done a surprisingly poor job framing his overarching belief system. He needs to really work on his messaging in that department. It is a question that isnt going to go away.

 

[ShadowKingpin]

He should have taken the time to call out Hillary's vapid American exceptionalist remark to justify why we have an empirically more unequal society compared to every other democratic socialist nation on earth.

I was so disgusted to see that bullshit and it being left untouched. It's depraved comments that like that which fail to accept one reality: we're middle of the road in many ways, especially in humanistic principles. We can, should, and fucking need to do better than where we're at, and discrediting better nations at these issues than us is not an okay approach in the slightest.

Agreed. Bernie should have also called her out for having the Private Prison industry be top donors for her campaign when prison reform was being discussed. He needs to fight harder than he did tonight.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Oh yeah, the real winner of tonight is the Democratic Party.

 

[SolarPowered]

Bernie won, right?

The candidate breaking through in the Democratic debate? Bernie Sanders.

Let's see what the polls say come Friday or sometime around then. I mean, Hillary had nothing to gain from this debate. The others on the other hand need massive growth in mindshare.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Oh yeah, the real winner of tonight is the Democratic Party.

and Anderson Cooper but he stays winning all the time anyway.

 

[ShadowKingpin]

Online polls are worth the same as toilet paper after I wiped my ass with it.

You can continue to be a victim of the big bad media, but don't use "the online polls" as proof

I know, but the public opinion to me is far more important than an opinionated publication.

 

[Zona]

I know we're a nation of idiots, but a dose of realism is in order to the society that infers a cosmic monarchy while believing the best form of government is democratic. Or else we'll be left with some dumb, unexamined ideas.

The last president to treat the public like adults was Carter...

I've made myself sad now.

 

[OuterLimits]

I don't think Clinton or Sanders had a runaway victory, although I personally feel Sanders won. Granted, Clinton did fine and she is so far ahead in polls that I doubt it this debate makes a difference.

 

[CrazyDude]

I know, but the public opinion to me is far more important than an opinionated publication.

Online polls don't really show "public opinion" anymore than publication.

 

[Damerman]

I think Bernie really needs to sit down with his team and come up with some serious strategies toward foreign policy. It really does concern me. It always has. He was and has always been good at pointing out problems with our foreign policy but has been light on detailed ideas on how to improve it.

As someone that seems to be so structured, concise and easily digestible with his narrative and message. A very strong one at that. He has done a surprisingly poor job framing his overarching belief system. He needs to really work on his messaging in that department. It is a question that isnt going to go away.

I dunno, i feel like he made himself very clear on foreign policy. The russia answer was awkward. But his stance on unilateral war efforts by the US was pretty clear... His voting record also gives hime a lot of credit. The crowd was definitely pleased with what he was saying in regards to war and coalition.

 

[Jonm1010]

I dunno, i feel like he made himself very clear on foreign policy. The russia answer was awkward. But his stance on unilateral war efforts by the US was pretty clear... His voting record also gives hime a lot of credit. The crowd was definitely pleased with what he was saying in regards to war and coalition.

I am still working my way through the debate so I was mostly speaking on his history. Good to hear.

 

[benjipwns]

I think Bernie really needs to sit down with his team and come up with some serious strategies toward foreign policy.

As someone that seems to be so structured, concise and easily digestible with his narrative and message. A very strong one at that. He has done a surprisingly poor job framing his overarching belief system. He needs to really work on his messaging in that department. It is a question that isnt going to go away.

He can't, really. Foreign policy is a reactionary debate where only one extreme (WAR) is an acceptable position.

His arguments weren't THAT different from Hillary and O'Malley except that he refused to be cowed into some "yes, I'd be a real leader and kill every foreigner in a hundred thousand mile radius without Congressional approval if that's what leadership 'Americans' want" disclaimer to the "diplomacy" stance.

That's part of why he started touting his great votes for bullshit like Kosovo, he knew he needed to slip that disclaimer in.

 

[SaintMadeOfPlaster]

Is anyone else frustrated that Hillary seems to think she's more qualified of a candidate because she has a vagina?

I don't give a shit what gender you are. Will you or will you not make a good president?

 

[AnotherDayAnotherDollar]

Yeah, his Russia response worried me, but I feel that his explanation of Democratic Socialism wasn't THAT bad. It wasn't good, but it wasn't awful. I think he was nervous at first and began stumbling over his words. Once he got his moment, it was amazing.

I think he wasn't prepared, maybe arrogance in his part? They were saying he didn't even prepare. When it was his element though, economic/racial inequality and the like, he really shined.

I think Bernie really needs to sit down with his team and come up with some serious strategies toward foreign policy. It really does concern me. It always has. He was and has always been good at pointing out problems with our foreign policy but has been light on detailed, realistic ideas on how to improve it. Similar to Ron Paul years back.

As someone that seems to be so structured, concise and easily digestible with his narrative and message. A very strong one at that. He has done a surprisingly poor job framing his overarching belief system. He needs to really work on his messaging in that department. It is a question that isnt going to go away.

He and his team need to prep for gun, socialism, and foreign policy. Can't just wing it. And he will keep getting drilled on it.

Same goes for Clinton on other issues she is clearly uncomfortable with.

and Anderson Cooper but he stays winning all the time anyway.

As someone who is new to following politics, Cooper really impressed me and better than all other moderators that I saw on the GOP. He DRILLED Hillary and Sanders right off the bat. Missed some opportunities later on, but still did amazing. Great moderator!

 

[rex]

I think bernie missed a big opportunity tonite to nail clinton on wall st.

The wall st regulates congress line was a great line, the line of the night after 'your damn emails,' but bernie is looking right at clinton and instead of saying shes a servant of wall st, he depersonalized it by leaving it at congress as the problem, and not the people in the congress.

According to the transcript, you can actually see him pull his punch because he starts out saying 'you do not...' and presumably was going to finish with 'regulate wall st.'

He could've had something there to neutralize the gun exchange and he stopped himself from taking it. He cant do that.

 

[Zornack]

I know we're a nation of idiots, but a dose of realism is in order to the society that infers a cosmic monarchy while believing the best form of government is democratic. Or else we'll be left with some dumb, unexamined ideas.

Is there a single country whose politicians don't talk up how great its people are? No one is going to win the polls by shit talking their constituents, no matter how badly some people on the left want to hear it.

 

[neogaffer1]

the one thing i expected out of this debate is to see if bernie could do well enough to make a name of himself and push his poll numbers to on par or above clinton. think he's made some headway but it nearly close enough to a blowout for him to get the poll jumps he needs imho.