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[Tiktaalik]

Support for minority rights, the labour movement, and the continuation and expansion of the welfare state are the key elements of leftism. Liberals in Canada are an odd mix of leftism and traditional liberalism, but the NDP are not really liberals at all. Their staunch opposition to free trade is a big part of that (I have no doubt the Liberals will pass TPP, awful copyright provisions included). They also proposed expanding universal health care to cover drugs, which is huge.

It seems as if the discussion of left vs. right in Canada has devolved to fiscal liberal vs. fiscal Keynsian, which is to my mind absolutely bizarre.

As a key practical example of the difference between the two parties, the Liberals would never filibuster back to work legislation.

YEP!

 

[Deleted member 126221]

yes

identity politics, being anti multiculturalism, questioning the voting patterns of ethnic minorities = Right Wing Nationalism , ethnic nationalism. A right wing trait.

Parizeau yelled out loud that "REAL" Quebecers voted YES at over 60% in the 1995 referendum

do you want me to link you his speech? If that is not right wing then I don't know what is

Oh, you meant "Quebec nationalism", lol. Of course.

Canadian nationalism is perfectly fine however, right?

 

[Kinitari]

Support for minority rights, the labour movement, and the continuation and expansion of the welfare state are the key elements of leftism. Liberals in Canada are an odd mix of leftism and traditional liberalism, but the NDP are not really liberals at all. Their staunch opposition to free trade is a big part of that (I have no doubt the Liberals will pass TPP, awful copyright provisions included). They also proposed expanding universal health care to cover drugs, which is huge.

It seems as if the discussion of left vs. right in Canada has devolved to fiscal liberal vs. fiscal Keynsian, which is to my mind absolutely bizarre.

As a key practical example of the difference between the two parties, the Liberals would never filibuster back to work legislation.

I don't think it's just that. The way NDP has campaigned on a few issues have seemed less "progressive" than the liberals. The niqab issue is a good example, the liberals came out the gates swinging on that issue, where the NDP tried to balance on the populist opinion while still keeping progressive. Marijuana legislation, again liberals were clear and upfront about it, where the NDP more vague, seemingly to keep the centrist vote, i even remember one debate where Mulcair made an "up in smoke" joke at Trudeau's expense.

I think these things left a mark. It shifted the image a bit, and made Muclair seem like a populist panderer and Trudeau like a principled leftist. Mind you, that's a shallow interpretation, but one I've seen reflected in quite a few articles on this election.

 

[DopeyFish]

This is a severe an overreaction!

I am hoping for a Liberal minority but that's because PR is probably my #1 issue of this election, and if the Liberals win a Majority government there's really zero incentive for them to implement PR (or any voting changes for that matter).

There is, though!

See... if they dont change it as promised, that will be seen as a lie. That hurts their position and then leads to allowing opposing parties to reclaim seats.

This would be in major places like quebec and ontario... where a small amount of votes can lose a seat in a hurry. They would be huge beneficiaries of PR. All left parties would be.

Considering how much the LPC was slaughtered the last election... they know they need to execute their promises...

 

[Walpurgis]

Do note this is trudeau's liberals

With majority, electoral reform is for sure on the cards... which is the best thing anyone can ask for

The electoral reform that Trudeau wants is the same as what Australia has.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_federal_election,_2013

Look at the Labor party's popular vote compared to Liberal/National coalition. It's 33% for Labor and 46% for Liberal/National. With TPP (two party preferred vote), Labor gets 47% and Liberal/National gets 53% (goes to like 110%+ for some reason). This is what we want out of electoral reform, right? Wrong.

Australia has the same problem as us; they don't have proportional representation. What does this translate to? False majorities, same as here. There are 150 seats in the Australian house and 76 are needed for a majority. Even though the Labor party has 47% of the TPP, they only have 55 seats and with 53% of the TPP, the Liberal/National has 90 seats.

When it comes to electoral reform, Trudeau offers no solutions. And a Liberal majority would ensure that we get stuck with a non-solution.

 

[pestul]

40-30-20 Forum Research.. I said goddamn.

 

[gutter_trash]

Oh, you meant "Quebec nationalism", lol. Of course.

Canadian nationalism is perfectly fine however, right?

is there such a thing Canadian nationalism? if there is, it's pluralistic not ethno-centric.

The PQ, Parizeau, PKP, Duceppe form of Nationalism is categorically ethnic nationalism, not civic nationalism

 

[firehawk12]

Considering how much the LPC was slaughtered the last election... they know they need to execute their promises...

So about GST being repealed... lol

I don't think it's just that. The way NDP has campaigned on a few issues have seemed less "progressive" than the liberals. The niqab issue is a good example, the liberals came out the gates swinging on that issue, where the NDP tried to balance on the populist opinion while still keeping progressive. Marijuana legislation, again liberals were clear and upfront about it, where the NDP more vague, seemingly to keep the centrist vote, i even remember one debate where Mulcair made an "up in smoke" joke at Trudeau's expense.

I think these things left a mark. It shifted the image a bit, and made Muclair seem like a populist panderer and Trudeau like a principled leftist. Mind you, that's a shallow interpretation, but one I've seen reflected in quite a few articles on this election.

Because Mulcair needs Quebec more than Trudeau does, so he's forced to do things that other party leaders aren't. Of course the Quebec pandering didn't pay off at all.

 

[maharg]

I don't think it's just that. The way NDP has campaigned on a few issues have seemed less "progressive" than the liberals. The niqab issue is a good example, the liberals came out the gates swinging on that issue, where the NDP tried to balance on the populist opinion while still keeping progressive. Marijuana legislation, again liberals were clear and upfront about it, where the NDP more vague, seemingly to keep the centrist vote, i even remember one debate where Mulcair made an "up in smoke" joke at Trudeau's expense.

I think these things left a mark. It shifted the image a bit, and made Muclair seem like a populist panderer and Trudeau like a principled leftist. Mind you, that's a shallow interpretation, but one I've seen reflected in quite a few articles on this election.

I definitely agree that the NDP downplayed their left wing, but it's still there in the platform if you look for it.

As for marijuana legalization, that's a liberal (please note the small-l, where it means essentially freedom) position, not a leftist position.

Please note that where the Liberals are a mish mash of traditional liberalism and leftism, the Conservatives are a mish mash of traditional liberalism and right wing traditionalism. Both of these are relatively modern coalitions of voters, but both have a strong element of liberalism to them (which is why they're both in favour of free trade, at least when they're not campaigning).

So about GST being repealed... lol

Don't forget NAFTA.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

is there such a thing Canadian nationalism?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Are you serious?

 

[Tiktaalik]

I don't think it's just that. The way NDP has campaigned on a few issues have seemed less "progressive" than the liberals. The niqab issue is a good example, the liberals came out the gates swinging on that issue, where the NDP tried to balance on the populist opinion while still keeping progressive. Marijuana legislation, again liberals were clear and upfront about it, where the NDP more vague, seemingly to keep the centrist vote, i even remember one debate where Mulcair made an "up in smoke" joke at Trudeau's expense.

I think these things left a mark. It shifted the image a bit, and made Muclair seem like a populist panderer and Trudeau like a principled leftist. Mind you, that's a shallow interpretation, but one I've seen reflected in quite a few articles on this election.

Yeah the NDP started this election with support all over the country from a wide variety of areas, which meant that they felt the pressure to appease all these different groups. This resulted in these watered down stances. The cautious approach to marijuana for example probably comes from trying to maintain and expand support in rural and working class prairie and Ontario/Quebec communities.

In contrast the Liberals were in third with nothing to lose, with their support more concentrated in the cities, so they could tailor their platform purely to that more unified market. The result was that it was simpler, more direct, and easier to understand.

 

[DopeyFish]

The electoral reform that Trudeau wants is the same as what Australia has.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_federal_election,_2013

Look at the Labor party's popular vote compared to Liberal/National coalition. It's 33% for Labor and 46% for Liberal/National. With TPP (two party preferred vote), Labor gets 47% and Liberal/National gets 53% (goes to like 110%+ for some reason). This is what we want out of electoral reform, right? Wrong.

Australia has the same problem as us; they don't have proportional representation. What does this translate to? False majorities, same as here. There are 150 seats in the Australian house and 76 are needed for a majority. Even though the Labor party has 47% of the TPP, they only have 55 seats and with 53% of the TPP, the Liberal/National has 90 seats.

When it comes to electoral reform, Trudeau offers no solutions. And a Liberal majority would ensure that we get stuck with a non-solution.

LPC platform lists ranked ballots, proportional representation, mandatory voting and online voting as part of the potential reform...

 

[gutter_trash]

I definitely agree that the NDP downplayed their left wing, but it's still there in the platform if you look for it.

As for marijuana legalization, that's a liberal (please note the small-l, where it means essentially freedom) position, not a leftist position.

Please note that where the Liberals are a mish mash of traditional liberalism and leftism, the Conservatives are a mish mash of traditional liberalism and right wing traditionalism. Both of these are relatively modern coalitions of voters, but both have a strong element of liberalism to them (which is why they're both in favour of free trade, at least when they're not campaigning).

the Liberals are an open tent party from Center-Left (Sheila Cops) to Center-Right (Paul Martin),

what hurt the Liberals was they played the fiscal responsibility card too much during the Chretien-Martin years that left a bad taste in the mouths of the Center-Left portion of the Liberal party.

 

[lupinko]

The electoral reform that Trudeau wants is the same as what Australia has.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_federal_election,_2013

Look at the Labor party's popular vote compared to Liberal/National coalition. It's 33% for Labor and 46% for Liberal/National. With TPP (two party preferred vote), Labor gets 47% and Liberal/National gets 53% (goes to like 110%+ for some reason). This is what we want out of electoral reform, right? Wrong.

Australia has the same problem as us; they don't have proportional representation. What does this translate to? False majorities, same as here. There are 150 seats in the Australian house and 76 are needed for a majority. Even though the Labor party has 47% of the TPP, they only have 55 seats and with 53% of the TPP, the Liberal/National has 90 seats.

When it comes to electoral reform, Trudeau offers no solutions. And a Liberal majority would ensure that we get stuck with a non-solution.

Australia's "Liberal Party" is a hardcore right wing party, just like Japan's current ruling "Liberal Democratic Party", which is also hardcore right wing.

And I thought many said that the Greens and NDP are ultra popular? Surely they could make a big splash in ranked ballots, no?

 

[matthewwhatever]

I don't see the Liberal getting much more than 25 seats in Quebec at this point(20-26 seats most likely in the province) so it looks like a majority is going to be really hard for them unless they get a ton of seats in Ontario(like 90+ seats). The bloc may sneak in and get a few seats(4-8 seats) and the ndp will dominate quebec still, but not as much as before.

In 1993 the Liberals did just miss getting every single seat in Ontario (and only by 123 votes in that other riding, too!), so it's happened that they've achieved that...but that was obviously a much different climate. It would be amazing to see, but I just doubt it.

 

[gutter_trash]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Are you serious?

define it then

 

[maharg]

the Liberals are an open tent party from Center-Left (Sheila Cops) to Center-Right (Paul Martin),

what hurt the Liberals was they played the fiscal responsibility card too much during the Chretien-Martin years that left a bad taste in the mouths of the Center-Left portion of the Liberal part

Divorcing 'left' from 'liberal' and 'right' from 'conservative' (although that's less of a problem) is more useful for discussing what parties actually believe and do than trying to use the made up, nebulous, and incomplete concept of centrism. I know this isn't a popular way to frame things, but it is both more expressive and more accurate to those terms' histories. Socialism coming along made a single axis of political thought untenable.

 

[Tiktaalik]

There is, though!

See... if they dont change it as promised, that will be seen as a lie. That hurts their position and then leads to allowing opposing parties to reclaim seats.

This would be in major places like quebec and ontario... where a small amount of votes can lose a seat in a hurry. They would be huge beneficiaries of PR. All left parties would be.

Considering how much the LPC was slaughtered the last election... they know they need to execute their promises...

Voter memories are short and parties can get away with a lot.

After being elected in 93 the Liberals pretty much threw out their platform and it never hurt them.

I'm cynically expecting a few promises to be thrown out...

* Voting Reform
* Marijuana Legalization

 

[CreeperBlocks]

Hypothetically if Harper loses power and Quits, who will be the next Conservative Leader?

 

[BigJonsson]

Hypothetically if Harper loses power and Quits, who will be the next Conservative Leader?

Doug Ford!

 

[Mr.Mike]

Hypothetically if Harper loses power and Quits, who will be the next Conservative Leader?

Thomas Mulcair after he get's kicked out of the NDP.

 

[maharg]

Hypothetically if Harper loses power and Quits, who will be the next Conservative Leader?

Brad Wall.

Spoiler

 

[gutter_trash]

Divorcing 'left' from 'liberal' and 'right' from 'conservative' (although that's less of a problem) is more useful for discussing what parties actually believe and do than trying to use the made up, nebulous, and incomplete concept of centrism. I know this isn't a popular way to frame things, but it is both more expressive and more accurate to those terms' histories. Socialism coming along made a single axis of political thought untenable.

what unites all Liberals from Left or Right is that they are socially Liberal and progressive and that they are a pan-Canadian party that is present in every region of the country

 

[Tiktaalik]

Hypothetically if Harper loses power and Quits, who will be the next Conservative Leader?

Jason Kenny or Jean Charest

 

[CreeperBlocks]

Doug Ford!

Dude, I'd lose it if Doug or Rob Ford Goes to Ottawa. Imagine if they get Trump-Like Support.

 

[maharg]

what unites all Liberals from Left or Right is that they are socially Liberal and progressive and that they are a pan-Canadian party that is present in every region of the country

So the Liberals weren't Liberals last election?

 

[GuessMyUserName]

yup, the NDP and CPC both want the Liberals gone because the Liberals always spoil the plans of both the NDP and CPC


both the NDP and the CPC want an American style 2 party system .... a polarized 2 party system. Both thrive on polarization

the Liberal Party is the stable conscious of normality that balances ph levels to be just right for the pool

Please, at least wait until Libs give us PR until you start claiming they're any better about a 2 party system.

 

[DopeyFish]

nanos poll coming soonish

 

[bardia]

I'm still up in the air on who to vote for. As much as I hate Harper, and as selfish as this sounds, I'm not looking forward to having my taxes raised if the Liberals win. Especially since I just finished school and have tons of student loans to pay back.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

define it then

You seriously don't define yourself as a proud member of the canadian nation? Give me a fucking break.

And there's ethnic nationalism among english canadians (just look at the conservative campaign) just as there is among québécois nationalists. You pretending Québec nationalism is exclusively composed of ethnic nationalists is frankly ignorant and insulting. You pulling quotes out of context and voluntarily misinterpreting them doesn't really prove anything.

 

[gutter_trash]

nanos poll coming soonish

another? Nick Nanos really wants to have the last word

 

[maharg]

I'm still up in the air on who to vote for. As much as I hate Harper, and as selfish as this sounds, I'm not looking forward to having my taxes raised if the Liberals win. Especially since I just finished school and have tons of student loans to pay back.

If you just finished school and are already making enough to have your taxes raised by the liberals, you'll be just fine.

For reference, I make more than enough to have my taxes raised by the Liberals and I'm fine with that.

 

[Indicate]

Doug Ford!

Please no. Him or Rob in the office will be worse than Harper.

 

[Tiktaalik]

I'm still up in the air on who to vote for. As much as I hate Harper, and as selfish as this sounds, I'm not looking forward to having my taxes raised if the Liberals win. Especially since I just finished school and have tons of student loans to pay back.

You should vote for the party that promised relief to low income students oh wait none of them did.

well your vote still matters something something...

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Mulcair campaigned on a balanced budget no matter what, in the face of obvious recession. That's right wing economic policy.

Trudeau campaigned on spending into deficit on infrastructure during recession. That's left wing economic policy.

I don't think you can do social left wing on a right wing economic policy. Those social programs are going to kick into high gear during recessions and cause budget deficits. And they should, it helps stimulate depressed economies.

So yeah, I certainly think Trudeau is running to the left of Mulcair.

 

[Walpurgis]

yup, the NDP and CPC both want the Liberals gone because the Liberals always spoil the plans of both the NDP and CPC


both the NDP and the CPC want an American style 2 party system .... a polarized 2 party system. Both thrive on polarization

the Liberal Party is the stable conscious of normality that balances ph levels to be just right for the pool

Come on gutter, you know that this is crazy. Of course, the NDP and CPC want the LPC to fail. LPC and CPC want the NDP to fail. And NDP and LPC want the CPC to fail. No one wants a two party system, especially the NDP because they would have to go against their beliefs in that environment, whereas, the Liberals are built for that. And the CPC doesn't want it because they would have to tone things down by quite a bit. Really, if anyone wants a two party system, it would be the Liberals.

No.

Yes.

Oh, you meant "Quebec nationalism", lol. Of course.

Canadian nationalism is perfectly fine however, right?

Nationalism that goes "oh, look at our great culture and our superior values

Spoiler

and our pure race

" is right wing. Nationalism that is like "we're such a great country for being so accepting and tolerant" is left wing. Liberals and NDP use the second kind. CPC and BQ especially use the first kind.

Voter memories are short and parties can get away with a lot.

After being elected in 93 the Liberals pretty much threw out their platform and it never hurt them.

I'm cynically expecting a few promises to be thrown out...

* Voting Reform
* Marijuana Legalization

I really don't think they can get away with that one and I think that Trudeau sincerely wants it. Didn't he smoke weed before?

 

[mo60]

another? Nick Nanos really wants to have the last word

I bet you nik will be laughing to the bank tommorrow while forum, ekos, leger and mainstreet will be off by a bit more than expected or way off and one or more of them reputations will be ruined.

 

[maharg]

I really don't think they can get away with that one and I think that Trudeau sincerely wants it. Didn't he smoke weed before?

To be fair there's no fucking way any of them haven't smoked weed.

 

[GSG Flash]

I'm still up in the air on who to vote for. As much as I hate Harper, and as selfish as this sounds, I'm not looking forward to having my taxes raised if the Liberals win. Especially since I just finished school and have tons of student loans to pay back.

You're gonna be making $200k out of school?

I have a feeling that you're not, in which case your taxes are actually going to be less under the Liberals. Don't buy into the Conservative misleading talking point.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Nationalism that goes "oh, look at our great culture and our superior values

Spoiler

and our pure race

" is right wing. Nationalism that is like "we're such a great country for being so accepting and tolerant" is left wing.

So we agree nationalism is not necessarily right wing. Good.

EDIT: Wait, so being proud of your culture is bad to you?

 

[mo60]

Mulcair campaigned on a balanced budget no matter what, in the face of obvious recession. That's right wing economic policy.

Trudeau campaigned on spending into deficit on infrastructure during recession. That's left wing economic policy.

I don't think you can do social left wing on a right wing economic policy. Those social programs are going to kick into high gear during recessions and cause budget deficits. And they should, it helps stimulate depressed economies.

So yeah, I certainly think Trudeau is running to the left of Mulcair.

His reasoning for that was that he did not want to leave debt on the back of future generations. He did say once that in special circumstances a balanced budget is not appropriate.

 

[Tiktaalik]

If you just finished school and are already making enough to have your taxes raised by the liberals, you'll be just fine.

For reference, I make more than enough to have my taxes raised by the Liberals and I'm fine with that.

Well the Liberals are promising smaller employment insurance premium cuts than the Conservatives so apparently Conservatives are probably the best vote for low income students!

The NDP is promising zero interest student loans, but that wouldn't come along soon enough to affect you.

In conclusion you should vote Liberal so that you can buy legal weed, get high, and forget about how none of the political parties care about you.

 

[DopeyFish]

His reasoning for that was that he did not want to leave debt on the back of future generations. He did say once that in special circumstances a balanced budget is not appropriate.

but lending rates are so low in terms of interest

build now while you can

 

[Dr.Acula]

To be fair there's no fucking way any of them haven't smoked weed.

https://youtu.be/01C4o4DcNK4

Guy probably rebels by heating up a glass of milk.

 

[Mr.Mike]

You'd actually have to make a bit more than 200k to actually be paying more taxes. While you would be in a higher tax bracket, you would also be getting the full benefit of the reduction in the middle bracket.

Current Fedral Tax Rates

•15% on the first $44,701 of taxable income, +
•22% on the next $44,700 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $44,701 up to $89,401), +
•26% on the next $49,185 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $89,401 up to $138,586), +
•29% of taxable income over $138,586.

 

[Walpurgis]

Dude, I'd lose it if Doug or Rob Ford Goes to Ottawa. Imagine if they get Trump-Like Support.

I don't think they would get a lot of support. I mean, people like them but in a Trump way. Once they actually have the power of affect the entire country, they'd get laughed out.

To be fair there's no fucking way any of them haven't smoked weed.

I meant that he was comfortable admitting that. Marijuana legalisation is a sure thing. If the Liberals, for whatever reason, tried to slink by without passing it, Mulcair would tear Trudeau to shreds in the house.

So we agree nationalism is not necessarily right wing. Good.

EDIT: Wait, so being proud of your culture is bad to you?

Raising your culture above others and trying to force it on others while forcing other cultures out is bad to me.

 

[gutter_trash]

The Federal is already lean and slim while the Provinces are choking in debt.

Everything the Federal cuts = the Provinces will end up being forced to raise fees and taxes plus cut on their own side.

What has anyone built lately?

I'm for investment mode now, time to make stuff

 

[ItIsOkBro]

I'm still up in the air on who to vote for. As much as I hate Harper, and as selfish as this sounds, I'm not looking forward to having my taxes raised if the Liberals win. Especially since I just finished school and have tons of student loans to pay back.

 

[matthewwhatever]

The pictures the Liberals have been tweeting out for the last two days have been insane:

Some of those shots are from Calgary and Edmonton. A Liberal leader in Alberta on the day before a close election!

I'm still up in the air on who to vote for. As much as I hate Harper, and as selfish as this sounds, I'm not looking forward to having my taxes raised if the Liberals win. Especially since I just finished school and have tons of student loans to pay back.

Your taxes are almost definitely not going up, and the Liberals have said that student loans won't be repayable until you make at least $25k/year.

 

[maharg]

Just to be clear, no deficit spending is not something I agree with the NDP platform on. But I also think the NDP would almost certainly have had deficits anyway.