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[RichiRamjag]

I don't even see why this is a problem. If the Dev didn't give you the option to change your race then so what, it's tough luck. Not every game has to offer the options to select race. What's next, is everyone going to call out Rockstar for not having male prostitutes in GTA?

Because it was a feature they went on about before release. You don't complain that Nathan drake isn't another race because no one gave off the impression that you could customize him. I think folks simply mistook the level of custimization that would be afforded to them. Personally, I would have never noticed if there wasn't a customize character screen with 9 faces, some slightly more tan than the others.

 

[User 73706]

Whats with the excuse of different voice actors? Do american non-whites sound a certain way? Do people know that the dude that voiced Vamp on Metal Gear was black? How does an asian-american sound like?

My favorite example: Jorge from Halo Reach.

Giant Space Hungarian lumberjack of a man, essentially a Spartan among Spartans, towers over the rest of the cast and can maintain a sprint alongside his more limber supersoldier peers while lugging around a minigun.

Voice actor? Perhaps the most literal Honorable Brother Hakeem, the (relatively) dainty black British VA classically trained at Bristol Old Vic.

 

[Venom Fox]

I wouldn't be mad if someone did. Would you?

I don't get mad over people wanting more diversity, I get mad when developers get called out just because they didn't offer it.

First it was about lead Women characters.
Then it was gay characters and gay relationships.
Now it's about race.

 

[Principate]

I do wonder how people would react. From what I know is it kind of unprecedented to change the race of someone who was performance captured. Ben Browder could end up looking like Ben Browder in blackface makeup.

On the other hand, white voice actors voicing black characters and vice versa has been accepted with no problem, though those characters are also not based on their real life appearence

We have been doing simple skin tone changes for decades, now, we have a rough idea how people will react. How the actor will react is another question entire (though I'm not sure why that'd matter to us unless they seriously complain about it.

 

[Eidan]

Right never make complaints about things you don't like in a video game ever gotcha.

No you can complain. Just never on issues of representation and diversity. Stick to framerates, ludonarrative dissonance, and combat systems.

 

[Eidan]

I don't get mad over people wanting more diversity, I get mad when developers get called out just because they didn't offer it.

First it was about lead Women characters.
Then it was gay characters and gay relationships.
Now it's about race.

You don't get mad at people wanting things, but do get mad when they say they want it.

 

[Sai-kun]

I don't even see why this is a problem. If the Dev didn't give you the option to change your race then so what, it's tough luck. Not every game has to offer the options to select race.

What's next, is everyone going to call out Rockstar for not having male prostitutes in GTA?

i love posts with hypotheticals like this, as if what they'll propose is so crazy to them, and crossing some kind of line.

i'm down for male prostitutes. hell, Trevor was pansexual.

 

[GrayChild]

Because it was a feature they went on about before release. You don't complain that Nathan drake isn't another race because no one gave off the impression that you could customize him. I think folks simply mistook the level of custimization that would be afforded to them. Personally, I would have never noticed if there wasn't a customize character screen with 9 faces, some slightly more tan than the others.

This is something I would agree with. However, it's more of a false advertising than anything else.

If the artistic vision means that the game must be 900p to reach the 60 fps, you will see people whine about it.
If it means that the music use midi instead of orchestral, you will see people whine about it.

I believe you should make a difference between artistic and design choices in addition to the technical limitations that come with each project.

 

[Palette Swap]

As I implied earlier, I think it's a matter of miscommunication where the game appears to sell you a feature, create-a-character, with every expectation that goes with it, when all it's really doing is letting you choose coop customization options to look different from the three other players. Hence options that boil down to "are you bald or do you have Drake's haircut?" and "did you go to the beach?"
They kind of put their foot in their mouth on this one.

In an ideal world, they'd have let you choose among all these badass MP models, with all the silly customization options. Hell, I'd love to have a unified Campaign/MP profile with common cosmetic unlocks.

That said, defenses like "what's next? Midget Samoan lesbians?" or "Outrage/PC culture" are pretty embarrassing and inefficient. "I don't care, shut up" would save everyone some time.

 

[User 73706]

What devs hate doing this? The only example I can think of is that some character creators make it difficult to get a realistic black skin color (usually Japanese games, which makes sense).

Most games with character creators have black options?

yeah, i'm not letting this one get buried in the rest of this thread's fuckery

i mean, come on now

 

[Principate]

I don't get mad over people wanting more diversity, I get mad when developers get called out just because they didn't offer it.

First it was about lead Women characters.
Then it was gay characters and gay relationships.
Now it's about race.

Oh the horror. People making comments, that they'd like greater diversity in games. It may actually lead to greater diversity in games, we simply cannot allow that to happen!!!

 

[RichiRamjag]

I don't get mad over people wanting more diversity, I get mad when developers get called out just because they didn't offer it.

First it was about lead Women characters.
Then it was gay characters and gay relationships.
Now it's about race.

Well each is a valid complaint. People wanting representation of themselves in their entertainment mediums isn't really an issue. You're saying if doesn't bother you when people want more diversity, but the boldes statement makes it seem otherwise, like "how dare they keep pushing?". I'm a fan of your posts typically, so I'm pretty sure I merely mistook your statement in the wrong way.

This is something I would agree with. However, it's more of a false advertising than anything else.



I believe you should make a difference between artistic and design choices in addition to the technical limitations that come with each project.

I'm glad you agree. I understand that people do get outraged over every single issue, but I'd hate for everyone to assume that's the problem here for all of us. I'm not for removing the artistic freedom of a writer, with this specific game, I felt led to believe there would be more options though.

 

[Yaphett Kotto]

I don't get mad over people wanting more diversity, I get mad when developers get called out just because they didn't offer it.

First it was about lead Women characters.
Then it was gay characters and gay relationships.
Now it's about race.

You don't care if people want more diversity, but when people tackle the issue directly, you get mad over it?

What the hell...

 

[Venom Fox]

Right never make complaints about things you don't like in a video game ever gotcha.

What makes it a problem though? Just the fact that you want it in and the Devs didn't give it to you? That's not a problem.

Because it was a feature they went on about before release. You don't complain that Nathan drake isn't another race because no one gave off the impression that you could customize him. I think folks simply mistook the level of custimization that would be afforded to them. Personally, I would have never noticed if there wasn't a customize character screen with 9 faces, some slightly more tan than the others.

Ah ok, so people thought they were getting racial customisation features and the Dev didn't offer it?

No you can complain. Just never on issues of representation and diversity. Stick to framerates, ludonarrative dissonance, and combat systems.

Like I said, I have no problems with wanting more diversity in games, far from it, but I do have problems with people calling out developers for. It offering something which they do not have to.

 

[Forearm Star]

I don't really mind when a developer has a specific character they envision taking on said quest. My question for this is why even bother making the shaders in the first place if it's all variations of the same thing?

I think character creators are great but if a dev is going to do it please don't half ass it.



Edit: This may have already been addressed.

 

[Sai-kun]

I don't get mad over people wanting more diversity, I get mad when developers get called out just because they didn't offer it.

First it was about lead Women characters.
Then it was gay characters and gay relationships.
Now it's about race.

ugh when will those minorities stop being so pushy :/

yeah, i'm not letting this one get buried in the rest of this thread's fuckery

i mean, come on now

lmaooo

 

[SolidSnakex]

Yes, use difference faces.

The workaround being that they capture multiple faces for the cutscenes they use. Or went with the standard character creator since the SP isn't all that good anyways.

Whether you like the story in the game isn't important. They can't just use a standard character creator because it would look atrocious compared to the characters that were done through performance capture. Performance capture is an all or nothing decision. You don't see games with character creators using performance capture for the non-main characters because it would be too jarring to have high end animation against the muppet quality that comes from not using performance capture.

I'd say the biggest mistake they made was simply giving people the impression that the main characters were fully customizable. They should've been more specific about just how limited the customization was.

 

[Alienous]

I don't get mad over people wanting more diversity, I get mad when developers get called out just because they didn't offer it.

First it was about lead Women characters.
Then it was gay characters and gay relationships.
Now it's about race.

First, no need to get mad, regardless. You can if you want, maybe you were exaggerating, but it's all cool.

Second, it's a simple case of gamers wanting to be represented, or, at least, not made to feel excluded. It's people responding to being given the choice of being a plethora of slightly different looking white guys, where the question becomes 'What purpose does that choice serve if it isn't to aid representation?'.

 

[User 73706]

i love posts with hypotheticals like this, as if what they'll propose is so crazy to them, and crossing some kind of line.

i'm down for male prostitutes. hell, Trevor was pansexual.

Unrelated to this thread and it's not as high up on my list as general LGBT education and greater minority representation in gaming, but I really hope we get some decent characters in any form of media that are pansexual, but aren't treated as "bang-anything-that-moves" types. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Trevor and then Roger from American Dad, though I'm sure literature has a couple of better examples that aren't as simple as "everyone is bi."

 

[Principate]

What makes it a problem though? Just the fact that you want it in and the Devs didn't give it to you? That's not a problem.

..... I'll bite, I'm since I'm guessing this hasn't actually occurred to you yet, but that's the same with every problem, every single one.

Problem is directly linked to perception it's in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Eidan]

Like I said, I have no problems with wanting more diversity in games, far from it, but I do have problems with people calling out developers for. It offering something which they do not have to.

The developer doesn't HAVE to do shit. Why do we call them out on anything at all?

I'm sorry, your posts really just read like someone who prefers those who feel underrepresented to just suffer in silence.

 

[braves01]

How many call of duty: white ops jokes have been made already? Seriously though this is deeply troubling and problematic.

 

[Obrek]

You don't get mad at people wanting things, but do get mad when they say they want it.

This is like the third time you've completely ignored someone's statement and used a strawman to make a completely bunk point.

There are a dearth of people in this thread literally saying this "ruined the game for them." That isn't saying you want something, it is decrying the entire game because it doesn't have this feature. They should have advertised it better, but don't pretend like the responses in this thread are reasonable, your own included.

 

[ocean]

I will say this thread has been eye opening. People are "immersed" when the color of the skin texture on a generic soldier "represents" them.

I'm guessing anyone except teenage girls failed to be immersed while playing as Ellie in TLoU? That's the way this works right? The experience is not "immersive" if you don't look like the character you're playing as?

As a non-white fat Caribbean islander I believe I have decades of outrage I should start venting...

 

[Yaphett Kotto]

Whether you like the story in the game isn't important. They can't just use a standard character creator because it would look atrocious compared to the characters that were done through performance capture. Performance capture is an all or nothing decision. You don't see games with character creators using performance capture for the non-main characters because it would be too jarring to have high end animation against the muppet quality that comes from not using performance capture.

I'd say the biggest mistake they made was simply giving people the impression that the main characters were fully customizable. They should've been more specific about just how limited the customization was.

I get you. I wasn't trying to say use different capturing methods for the characters, but go with one and actually show us up with the customization.

That, or actually make characters who don't fall as flat as the ones in the SP.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Haven't played the game so no idea.
I still don't see what that has to do with the fact that he is a fixed character.

Is there something particular about the character or personality of Nathan Drake that couldn't work if he was Black? Or Lara Croft if she was asian?

Because there's no excuse for it rather than just the typical flimsy one of "well, it's an established character, so they can't just let you change things about them," a common argument that pops up in these discussions. If that's not you argument, then good. In this game, it's a generic, nameless avatar that is customizable, but only to an arbitrary point. People wanted further customization, and it's not ridiculous to want or include that. The CoD avatar could've had further customization, and it's something that has precedence in games with voiced customizable characters.

There is nothing preventing those other games from having protagonists who aren't white in future installments either, and it wouldn't be ridiculous for that to happen. Are you trying to argue that those other series — and games as a whole — don't receive criticism for routinely having only white protagonists? Because they do. If they receive less criticism, it's because those characters have a semblance of characterization, either through having an individualized personality or for story reasons across multiple games, so people don't expect those characters to change spontaneously. Again, however, there's no good reason to not have characters of atypical skin colors/nationalities/genders in those roles.

This CoD avatar definitely does not need to be white based on all non-spoiler story stuff that's readily known. Since they're named "Player," it's particularly reasonable for someone to want to have more options for that character's appearance.

 

[RichiRamjag]

What makes it a problem though? Just the fact that you want it in and the Devs didn't give it to you? That's not a problem.

Ah ok, so people thought they were getting racial customisation features and the Dev didn't offer it?


Like I said, I have no problems with wanting more diversity in games, far from it, but I do have problems with people calling out developers for. It offering something which they do not have to.

I know I did. I read interviews like the one below:

From COD producer James Blundell (who also spoke to playstationlifestyle) “You can be male, and you can be female. And by the way, that means you’ve got a full female track for the whole thing as well. So male track, female track. Customize that character, change the outfit, weapons, paint job- err, Paintshop, you know, all that good stuff. Equipment that your putting on there. That is all represented in those third-person cameras and you are the hero of that moment.” – this also includes all cut scenes too.

I was hyped when I read we could customize our characters and read a few different interviews and such. Statements like this may not have been intentionally misleading, I don't think there is a conspiracy here, but it just gave off the impression that we'd be making our own characters.

 

[Alienous]

I will say this thread has been eye opening. People are "immersed" when the color of the skin texture on a generic soldier "represents" them.

I'm guessing anyone except teenage girls failed to be immersed while playing as Ellie in TLoU? That's the way this works right? The experience is not "immersive" if you don't look like the character you're playing as?

As a non-white fat Caribbean islander I believe I have decades of outrage I should start venting...

Having representation of your ethnicity or gender excluded when there is a choice is a reasonable thing to dislike.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I don't get mad over people wanting more diversity, I get mad when developers get called out just because they didn't offer it.

First it was about lead Women characters.
Then it was gay characters and gay relationships.
Now it's about race.

You're acting like people are coming out of the woodwork and are trying to take away your video games.

 

[Principate]

I will say this thread has been eye opening. People are "immersed" when the color of the skin texture on a generic soldier "represents" them.

I'm guessing anyone except teenage girls failed to be immersed while playing as Ellie in TLoU? That's the way this works right? The experience is not "immersive" if you don't look like the character you're playing as?

As a non-white fat Caribbean islander I believe I have decades of outrage I should start venting...

Immersion was always a bullshit term, but question to you is this, do you think it's wrong to want to customize a character to look like you or have very little options when deciding how you want the character to look, or simply not play the same race all the time in a game where you can even change the gender of the character in question.

 

[Eidan]

This is like the third time you've completely ignored someone's statement and used a strawman to make a completely bunk point.

There are a dearth of people in this thread literally saying this "ruined the game for them." That isn't saying you want something, it is decrying the entire game because it doesn't have this feature. They should have advertised it better, but don't pretend like the responses in this thread are reasonable, your own included.

I haven't ignored anything. That is what he's saying.

 

[RichiRamjag]

You're acting like people are coming out of the woodwork and are trying to take away your video games.

Venom is a really cool poster, I'd personally like to give him/her the benefit of the doubt on this one.

 

[freeofgreed]

artistic vision in a call of duty game

where's :lol when you need it???

I always hated this argument. People always get mad when you make a women or non white protagonist and say that it's "SJW pandering", and that it ruins the "artistic vision" of the game. But they faill to realize that most AAA protagonists are pandering to the white male crowd as well. Do you really think that devs are choosing generic brunette straight white gays as protags all the time is part of their "vision"? No, those characters have been focus tested from hell and back to be as generic and non offensive as possible. But no one ever gets mad at that. You also have situations where devs want to have a more diverse MC but publishers want them to be white guys. But again no one raises an uproar over that as messing up the artistic vision. They only get mad when it's a woman or a POC which shows just how hypocritical these guys are.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Venom is a really cool poster, I'd personally like to give him/her the benefit of the doubt on this one.

I've felt this disappointment before here — it's easy for certain aspects of someone's character to be filtered out on a message board.

 

[User 73706]

This is like the third time you've completely ignored someone's statement and used a strawman to make a completely bunk point.

There are a dearth of people in this thread literally saying this "ruined the game for them." That isn't saying you want something, it is decrying the entire game because it doesn't have this feature. They should have advertised it better, but don't pretend like the responses in this thread are reasonable, your own included.

Blops III's flaw was in that it didn't commit to either a single, static and contextually-defined character, or a customizable one. It was advertised as having various character customization options, which one would logically assume to mean, well, customization - only to be greeted with a gender-switching option and 9 skin tones / hairdos for either one. On either end of the spectrum, these concepts have been implemented with little complaint relative to their characters; Noble Six from Halo Reach could be either male or female, but barely had any other information revealed by proxy of having it all extensively redacted to all but the highest-level government operatives. You only hear a voice, and nothing's ever explicitly said regarding Six's racial background, you never see their face, etc.

GTAV's protags also had a pretty large number of customization options, but they were still definitive characters in Michael, Trevor and Franklin; while GTAO has much more expansive customization options, staying true to its promise of a character customization system.

Blops III's campaign options are cosmetic character options, but were paraded around as custom character options. That's the problem people have here, and when so many people hop into this thread to show their asses with "i'm not [X] and i don't have a problem with it so you guys shouldn't either," "moral crusade outrage brigade SJW censorship," "i'm white and immersion is relative, get over it," ad nauseam it's pretty easy to see why people have issues with its execution.

 

[shiftplusone]

I get you. I wasn't trying to say use different capturing methods for the characters, but go with one and actually show us up with the customization.

That, or actually make characters who don't fall as flat as the ones in the SP.

I'll ask again, then:

If the character was better written would it be more acceptable that they are white?

Does racial diversity help/ excuse the lack of good characterization? Why?

I understand why diversity is important, I'm trying to figure out why in this case it's a big deal that the character who no one seems to like anyway should be more customizable and why him not being as flat of a character would be excused if you had more options

 

[DannyDanger]

How is this debate still going?

It's pretty straight forward... Don't call it "Create Operative" if its not a character "creator"

If a game has a set character, and ppl start dissing the developer I cant get behind that.

But if a game says "you can create a character, just as long as she's/he's white, and looks like this" I can see why ppl would be mad.

 

[Fbh]

Because COD specifically had a customization mode they kept going on about before release and they went on about you being the hero this time.

I've never thought about it in a cod game before as you outright knew you're playing someone else.

Oh, I hadn't followed the advertising/marketing campaign for this.
If they have been selling it like: "and this year you the player will be the main character of the story" I can see why people are upset.

 

[ocean]

Immersion was always a bullshit term, but question to you is this, do you think it's wrong to want to customize a character to look like you or have very little options when deciding how you want the character to look, or simply not play the same race all the time in a game where you can even change the gender of the character in question.

I don't see anything wrong with doing it if you're given the choice but I think it's a strange thing to care about. The game is either good or it's not and a color slider for the skin texture has exactly 0 effect on that.

We play as all sorts of batshit insane looking spacey or alien or robot or fantasy characters in different games - it's just the artistic vision behind the setting the developers decide upon. In this case, it was decided that the game would have a white protagonist. I don't think there's much else to look into it.

I mean no disrespect if your enjoyment of a game hinges on or is affected by a sort of visual semblance between yourself and the main character...but I don't get why, and I'm trying to educate myself on the issue here.

 

[TriniTrin]

This is a problem in alot of games. Hell in madden if you make a coach you are either white or black. AIN'T NO HISPANICS, ASIAN or INDIAN coaching no football! Why would anyone want those options?

Ugh. So dumb.

 

[Kahjah]

You can't really give characters shades then not expect POC not to notice themselves not represented as the main character. It's not like these particular games have this specific cannon that determines the race of the protag but we consistently the white option given as default.

That is the issue most people who are upset about this are focusing on.

That focus is valid.

 

[User 73706]

I'll ask again, then:

If the character was better written would it be more acceptable that they are white?

Does racial diversity help/ excuse the lack of good characterization? Why?

I understand why diversity is important, I'm trying to figure out why in this case it's a big deal that the character who no one seems to like anyway should be more customizable and why him not being as flat of a character would be excused if you had more options

See my post above. The character was said to be an "avatar," rather than a self-contained "character," despite resembling the latter - albeit with a handful of customization options. If Sgt. Calladudebro II was an explicitly-defined character and said to be such, there'd be nowhere near as many complaints - the problem is that they were advertised to be an actual product of a character creator, of which there is none.

 

[CenturionKei]

People are complaining about the character sexuality?

They are aware, that your love interest dosent change, regardless of there gender, as does the very suggestive dialouge. Implying the female prota is lesbian/bisexual?

 

[alterno69]

I bought the game digitally, how many GB is the multiplayer portion only? It said 12gb, it's done but i still can't choose MP :/

Woops, wrong thread, read COD and assumed this was the OP sorry.

 

[Kinyou]

I feel like the thread title is a little misleading because it gives the impression that a different skin tone is the only thing that's missing from the character creator, while in fact everything from a normal character creator is missing.

The former sounds a lot more heinous to me, while the latter is a confusion created by misleading PR.

 

[Johndoey]

And the publishers are some of the most destructive forces of that artistic vision.
Let's be fair, no one really gives a shit about artistic vision.
If the artistic vision means that the game must be 900p to reach the 60 fps, you will see people whine about it.
If it means that the music use midi instead of orchestral, you will see people whine about it.
It's not less valid because we're talking about gender or race.

I was specifically responding to a post ridiculing the concept of a call of duty game having artistic vision.

 

[Principate]

I don't see anything wrong with doing it if you're given the choice but I think it's a strange thing to care about. The game is either good or it's not and a color slider for the skin texture has exactly 0 effect on that.

We play as all sorts of batshit insane looking spacey or alien or robot or fantasy characters in different games - it's just the artistic vision behind the setting the developers decide upon. In this case, it was decided that the game would have a white protagonist. I don't think there's much else to look into it.

I mean no disrespect if your enjoyment of a game hinges on or is affected by a sort of visual semblance between yourself and the main character...but I don't get why, and I'm trying to educate myself on the issue here.

People care about different things, the person right next to (or if your not sitting next to someone near you), will have different priorities or care about different things than you do, even if the differences are relatively minute.

The mere fact people care really shouldn't be much of a problem to anyone, unless they either really don't want things to change, or don't want to/can't be bothered to emphasis with the group (perhaps the group annoys them or they don't like the way they do things for whatever reason).

 

[Kreed]

Yeah, its not really a create-a-character, its just...slight variations. Prophet is always a specific black man you can play in MP, no matter what goofy ass helmet you put on him

It's clear that Shareef Jackson is discussing why the diverse MP characters aren't available in the campaign mode vs just the two white characters, but the OP "seems" to have interpreted this/or at least has directed the discussion towards the create a character not being diverse enough, which has caused the topic to diverge into two different discussions.

Regardless, while you're right that money and development time was likely the cause for why you can only play as the two characters in SP, it is worth discussing why the developer felt it wasn't worth the effort to get more characters into the SP as opposed to MP and/or why the developer thought those two characters were acceptable enough for the SP campaign and not the others.

 

[Yaphett Kotto]

I'll ask again, then:

If the character was better written would it be more acceptable that they are white?

Does racial diversity help/ excuse the lack of good characterization? Why?

I understand why diversity is important, I'm trying to figure out why in this case it's a big deal that the character who no one seems to like anyway should be more customizable and why him not being as flat of a character would be excused if you had more options

Yes it would have been better accepted. Especially if it was someone who is from the Mason/Woods family tree. The problem is that the faces given to you aren't "set" characters so it opens up discussion for threads like these.

No, racial diversity doesn't excuse bad characterization. The game will just be praised for at least being aware that there needs to be diversity.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Oh, I hadn't followed the advertising/marketing campaign for this.
If they have been selling it like: "and this year you the player will be the main character of the story" I can see why people are upset.

Yeah exactly. If I went in thinking I was playing was playing a certain guy, then this would be non-issue for me. I just thought I was going to be able to better customize the character and have some real options. What I got was 9 similar faces, one or two slightly tan.