Yup.
This award show isn't the issue. The issue is that they went to 52 publications and most of them wouldn't be able to come up with a female journalist if they tried. THAT is the problem here.
The Game Awards jury lists only 2 women out of 32 jurors (sites selected jurors)
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
Yup.
This award show isn't the issue. The issue is that they went to 52 publications and most of them wouldn't be able to come up with a female journalist if they tried. THAT is the problem here.
viveks86
Member
Take Witcher 3 for example. The way men process that game is vastly different from the way women process it due to the controversial subjects it tackles, such as prostitution, domestic abuse, female protagonists etc. Some might look at it favorably and others might not. And that's important when you are assembling a jury. Otherwise you end up with a skewed opinion.
On second thought, not a bad idea actually. I mean if there a people who want to come out like this their could be a "biased category" or something....
igordennis
Member
I think it's more proof that the gaming industry doesn't really understand sexism, rather than have a problem with it. It's hard for someone to see they are being sexist when they don't understand it.
Messofanego
Banned
This assumption is based on a fantasy that ignores the disproportion. Gaming critics aren't 50/50, that's a problem in of itself. Women not being hired or not wanting to work as games critics is worrying. We should be propping up more women or minorities critics so that we can encourage more diversity in gaming outlets.
Like if I see more of my kind of people who I can relate to being part of outlets or being game developers (Tamoor Hussein, Gamespot, and that's about it lol), then I might feel inclined to become a critic and therefore easily correct this issue.
EEEYYYY!
I love it when I find other people who wrote their master's thesis on games. Makes me feel less weird.
I'm sure it will become yet another blip on the "yo, there are no women in games' journalism" discussion. But it's not the show's fault. Again, it's a bigger problem.
cartographer
Member
Do you need an example? How somebody views and critiques art and media is directly influenced by their life, experiences and perspective.
Basically how I am looking at this issue to.
The color of your skin and your gender doesn't instantly define your tastes or your judging abilities.
Give War A Chance
Member
Bingo.
Also, in an industry that is seemingly dominated by "white dudes," I'm not shocked that a "jury" (of its peers) are a bunch of white dudes. Not saying it's right or wrong, just not surprising at all.
You're saying "sexism" and right now - whoever is hosting or in some way responsible for choosing judges their name/brand can be harmed if this gets "spun" the wrong way for discrimination. That can destroy a company/someone who's in the media business. All for the cause of equality that the effected gender NEVER asked for. These are the repercussions - so completely relevant.
I don't think the show is necessarily in the position to fix the problem, but it's certainly something they can help with.
But it influences your perspective and your priorities, which are things actually relevant to the 'credentials' of making an opinion of something.
It's a little troubling. Having people that are way too like minded all focusing on one project is how you end up with a racist Resident Evil game, or a rum ad condoning date rape.
Finale Fireworker
Member
If nothing else, I am grateful that posters with morally questionable or outright sexist gender politics are banned pretty predictably. While mega-threads like this one are embarrassing, at least it weeds out the egregious offenders.
Even with these ludicrous threads about whether or not fan service is sexist or if more women should be on a judge panel, NeoGAF is a better moderated and better populated place to have this discussion than anywhere else in our hobby's sphere.
Can you imagine having this conversation on Reddit right now?
Sure. And I wouldn't expect them to change things this year. Next year though.
The fact that we all see it as a problem is sort of enough for me regarding what needs to be done with the show going forward.
No one is solely responsible for the lack of diversity. You can isolate any situation and easily explain it away as not racist for x reason, but when you look at the trends then the reality becomes clear. Gaming, actually all media has an issue with diversity and hopefully the more we bring it up the more gets done.
There's probably a thread for it, and it's probably a clusterfuck.
As someone who definitely doesn't fit the status quo - I would be completely devastated knowing that I was invited to fit some type of role "just because" I was "something" and not acknowledged for my qualifications. If someone is more qualified than me and he's white - I don't deserve to be there just because i'm something else.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Okay, why do you assume women would automatically be less qualified than these dudes?
You understand that people can be included for their race/gender and qualifications?
ViewtifulJC
Banned
This reminds of another piece I read today. Every year, THR does a big roundtrable with Actors, Actresses, and Directors who are being predicted and promoted for possible Oscar nominations. All the Actresses this year are white. I thought Stephen Galloway did a pretty interesting mea culpa about why that is, and how the system keeps this going. Its not the actresses interviewed AREN'T worthy; by most accounts each and every one of these actresses gave wonderful performances this year that deserve recognition. But for various systemic reasons, these roles simply aren't being given to women of color, so you end up with a cover of white women like this.
Like TGA's make-up of judges, it points towards a wider issue that you can't point a finger at any one entity. All the studios, the publicists, the agents, the Award consultants, the marketers...its a system wide problem that won't change unless a lot of people take direct action to change it.
Architechnophile
Member
I don't think there's a compelling reason to prioritize ensuring that the panelists all be senior editors over ensuring that there be more than a single woman on the panel. A panel of white male senior editors does not reflect as well on the show as a diverse panel would have--we're seeing the fallout of that right now. To say nothing of the fact that a more diverse panel would better ensure a broader range of outlooks and backgrounds in the voting pool.
The major sites of the enthusiast games press have a problem with diversity, particularly at the senior editor level, true. All the more reason why Keighley & Co. should have considered other benchmarks when they sought out their panel.
Why would you assume that you are not or less qualified? Even two equally qualified jurors would make different decisions sometimes.
While I agree with many that having only 2 women on a panel of 32 is indicative of a problem, I don't think it's TGA's fault since it's the gaming publications who are sending these people.
A lot of girls and women play games. A lot. It's not a boy's hobby. I am not sure everyone fully grasps this. They ought to have better representation when it comes to stuff like this.
A lot of girls and women play games. A lot. It's not a boy's hobby. I am not sure everyone fully grasps this. They ought to have better representation when it comes to stuff like this.
I was wrong.
I don't think it's their fault necessarily but I do think Geoff is in a position to help. Had it been made necessary for all publications to front two people and to have TGAs pick to reach a gender benchmark would have had a positive impact at least.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Required Qualifications:
*3 years writing experience.
*50 written reviews
Woman's experience
*5 years writing experiemce
*75 written reviews
Man's Experience
*7 years writing experience 100 written reviews
Panel has 30 males and 1 females.
If they pick the female she is less qualified. Are you insinuating she should be embarassed or she is undeserving? Less qualifications doesnt even imply lack of competency or that you wont do a good job. And it doesnt even bring into considerations that companies also hire based on personality and fit as well as qualifications.
I'm saying sexism because sexism manifests itself in ways beyond the black and white "I hate women, so I'll do what I can to keep them from advancing"-style you're hung up on. Overt sexism is actually much easier to deal with than the structural issues that many well-meaning people buy into without even realizing that they're sexist.
I'm not assuming that at all. Read the two questions I asked in my first post. I'm putting the whole "it has to be 50/50 or we're not supporting you" into perspective. If a publication makes a decision to send 20 white men and no women you have to expect that they know who are the most qualified to participate.
Who's talking about selecting unqualified individuals?
Meh. This kind of discussion will become useless when a bunch of machines/computers decide these kind of awards for us in the near future. 
All seriousness: Honestly, as long as the judges are the most qualified and established people for this event, then I don't care if it's 32 Women or 32 Men.
However, it does speak volume about the lack of well established female critics/journalists. Hopefully that changes sooner than later.
I doubt this is the case of the guy in charge being sexist/racist or something. Hell, I bet Geoff probably tried getting more women on board if anything but some declined maybe?
All seriousness: Honestly, as long as the judges are the most qualified and established people for this event, then I don't care if it's 32 Women or 32 Men.
However, it does speak volume about the lack of well established female critics/journalists. Hopefully that changes sooner than later.
I doubt this is the case of the guy in charge being sexist/racist or something. Hell, I bet Geoff probably tried getting more women on board if anything but some declined maybe?
What? No you don't, of course you don't.
SolidSnakex
Member
Well, race in Hollywood has a long way to go considering the people in power positions don't actually want to talk about it
https://youtu.be/TIv7lubHif8?t=44
Ninja Scooter
Member
And why do we have to expect that, you know, since we're not making assumptions and all that?
And even if you do, what you are saying is that 30 out of 32 outlets have determined that they have no sufficiently qualified female employees on staff...and that's not a problem?
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
The call for tokenism is the weirdest aspect of modern 'social justice' stuff.
A thing that was frowned upon is now held up as a mandatory initiative regardless of situation or context.
A thing that was frowned upon is now held up as a mandatory initiative regardless of situation or context.
viveks86
Member
You are making strawman arguments. Nobody said any of that. If you think a person's gender or race has no influence on their taste, then you don't understand the concept of social conditioning. People don't grow up in a vacuum.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
What are you even talking about?
And how can you guys judge that someone is 100%, objectively the most qualified person to do something as subjective as giving awards to video games?
igordennis
Member
How is the fact (yes, fact) that the environment that a person was raised and the experiences she went through in her life (meaning everything that built her as a person) radically changes how she views things and how she forms her opinion on media so difficult to get through you?
Because it has demonstratively positive results?
bananafactory
Banned
You're completely painting everything black and white. Of course the things you mentioned are not impossible.
But the WAY in which people react to certain games will be influenced by their life experience because that is what shapes their personality - and their background including race and gender and even religion will indeed inform that.
Why is this so hard to comprehend?
Oh no.
No you don't. Because that is RARELY the case. The glass ceiling isn't a myth and racism is still alive even though we have a black president.
Christ, I love that to be the case, where if something is just extremely gender/racially imbalanced, it's solely because the most experienced just happened to be on the other side of the scale. But that's not how things work most of the time.
Who's saying they "Hate women" - did the game awards say that? Did any woman blame their employer for saying that? Where's the proof? Or are folks just making assumptions that "woman hate" is present because no woman was asked to be a judge?
This makes more sense.
If people were clamoring for token representatives, then everyone would be fine with just having two women.