"send someone but please consider issues of diversity" or "send someone and we highly value diversity here at The Official Games Award 2015* *brought to you by The Holy Mountain Dew and Our Blessed Doritos"
It's really that simple.
The Game Awards jury lists only 2 women out of 32 jurors (sites selected jurors)
- Thread starter Lime
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"send someone but please consider issues of diversity" or "send someone and we highly value diversity here at The Official Games Award 2015* *brought to you by The Holy Mountain Dew and Our Blessed Doritos"
It's really that simple.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Evidence of what?-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-;185993900 said:
WiiRevolution1
Member
No its not. Gamergate is the worst thing to happen to the industry. I will not watch TGA and I hope it bombs. How Geoff, who does seem like a nice guy could get someone from that fucking site is beyond words in its stupidity.
find more women then, and not the one's you meet on the streets
and then they all send every woman they have, if any, as the modern stereotype of equality, because nobody knows the split by then. Diversity is basically saying send in the black males.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
"Social Justice" as a pejorative is never the best fit.
I'm going to assume that you mean "hardcore gamer girls" and not "those everyday gamer girls"?
Gotdatmoney
Member
You've been preaching this all thread. Allow me to ask you, how are you going to encourage more women to get into the industry?
Sephiroth_VII
Member
But it's the same thing. You just word it nicer.
I've answered this before, but I'll say it again: No clue. I suggest hiring some experts of cultural and women's studies to figure out why women aren't joining the industry at the same rate as men. That's the best I've got.
Again, this is a complex issue, and I don't think picking these kinds of easy solutions is going to actually change anything for the better. If anything, I'd argue it would be humiliating for a woman to be chosen over more experienced male colleagues(who, remember, are statistically more likely) because "the company is expected to send a man and a woman". Not to mention the resentment it might generate towards her.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
It's arguably not sexism, just a general failure to consider women at all, and in some cases an actual lack of female staff to add to the selection pool in the first place. In some ways it's a chicken and egg situation.
The problem is that some people have an extremely strong aversion to even considering why there are less women in the industry and are willing to tie it all up as "girlz hate vidya" when that's demonstrably untrue. It's obvious that you will have less women in the industry and games media if there are less women trying to get in, and it should also be obvious that less women try to get in because these can be generally unpleasant places for women to work. There are many women in the industry who've been successful and have not personally been subjected to harassment or discrimination, but this does not cancel out the experiences of the many women who do have to deal with these things. It's no big secret and it's not even like the industry or games media even try to argue against it; it's largely gamers who do that.
People get tired of intellectual dishonesty regarding this and become impatient.
Like I said earlier, one of the few awards they gave prominent stage time to was given to Roberta Williams last year. Not only was she a prominent female game developer, but she was a prominent female game developer in a time when that was even rarer than it is today. Putting her in the limelight is going to encourage more young female game developers. Sure, it won't fix things over night, but it is doing something. Also, it is doing something without being condescending or calling anybody a sexist. It is encouraging women without tearing down men. It's the fucking definition of progress.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
What?
-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-
Banned
Read the conversation.
SolicitorPirate
Member
You wanna debate my point that a more diverse industry is better for everyone or that games are still largely power fantasies sold to white guys, or do you want to keep posting like an idiot?
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I read it and I'm still confused by this supposed proof.-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-;185994362 said:
Games as a technology moves quickly. But the games industry is still a business, and businesses are intrinsically linked to all the other socioeconomic parts of our society at large, and therefore move as slow as molasses in January.
-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-;185993900 said:Clearly the rules were different back in the day
That was indeed a long time ago, they also make exceptions...
-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-;185993900 said:
How is this thread evidence?
Where do you see the male female split of this thread?
I would seriously prefer if there was some criteria, there clearly isn't.
If it was an award hosted by actual devs that need to have shipped X number of titles in a Y number of months, yeah I'd get that but here?
It can move surprisingly quickly, heck the whole adoption to new business models out there is not something you'll see in a car company for example.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
He's making the claim that "actual gamer girls" are rare.
I think that's related to giving a Breitbart employee a platform, but I am assuming this is the case.
It's really great that you are aware of it and trying to do something. Always keep that in mind when you see criticisms like the ones in this thread, so you don't feel targeted. But you're such a small team, whereas someone like IGN or Gamespot or Games Radar could have done a better job, so their lack of doing anything (or Geoff not reaching out to women or minority-oriented sites given the outcome of the jury) is more open towards criticism.
Yes that's really good. But it doesn't detract from the fact that this year's jury turned out the way it did (and it occured last year as well).
Shadoken
Member
If you were in charge of choosing the jurors surely you would have some criteria correct? Perhaps its not an actual skill set but you would choose based on SOMETHING.
If it was completely random then sure you can just find random guys and girls and call it a day.
So suddenly through whatever selection process you do , would you go "Oh I seem to have selected too many dudes so far , I should start selecting more women now". So now gender becomes an actual factor in your criteria , How is this different from a quota system? Unless of course you were implying thats what should be done.
Trogdor1123
Member
Are they not the people who are selected by their peers and are game reviewers? Being selected by your peers is usually a strong endorsement of skill, assuming there is criteria of course. I better read some more.
We're talking about people working in the industry here, right? Well if we know already that because of the whole nature of our industry women tend to avoid getting jobs, thus making a disparity in balance. That's the point.
-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-
Banned
No, I don't think I was a junior when I was banned. The junioring was probably an extra penalty.
It's easy, take notice on how posters talk about women: those who consider themselves part of that group and those who don't. That gives you a good idea of the split.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Sounds like a good demographic to judge which game is the best.
If there's any blame to lay, I'm pretty sure it's at the feets of the outlets that choose the people going there.
Or it could be that the guy selected was just available or it was his turn to do some chores or whatever.
Considering the state of game reviewing at some outlets I doubt they couldn't have sent a freelancer there.
The only criteria we have is that the outlets picked people to send to the award, that's it.
They could all do a pot draw or something for all we know about it.
That can also happen...-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-;185994974 said:
No, not really.-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-;185994974 said:
It's very easy to pass off as one or the other depending on the conversation.
Unless otherwise stated you can't assume anyone is male, female, black, white or whatever.
Sephiroth_VII
Member
I sincerely hope that you are wrong -_-
But actually, if the reviewers were chosen completely at random, the split would be distressingly close to the split we actually see...
I like you.
Even though he didn't choose the editors, it is still his event. After he saw the lack of diversity in the list of judges, he could have asked some of the outlets to submit alternative names.
Unfortunately he didn't.
This is what we fight in this industry - not enough people notice (or care) when there's no female/minority representation. It just doesn't register. It's not intentional - they don't sit around and say "lets make sure no women come in here." But they don't seek it out either, and women's voices get left out of the conversation.
Individual actions can make a difference. They build up over time. That's why its important to look at things like this judges panel, and ask can we do better? The answer in this case, is yes.
I totally agree with all of this, but most of the outrage in this thread is over the Jury not having equal representation, right? When, as we've established, that isn't the root of the problem at all. The games industry clearly needs to move in a better direction when it comes to being more open to (and the treatment of) women...but the reality of the situation here is that gaming sites with a predominately male staff were asked to select representatives for a Jury, and surprise surprise it ended up being predominately male. There is no avoiding that unless they specifically selected people based on their gender (and therefore ignoring who was actually best suited), which I can't really agree with at all.
SolicitorPirate
Member
It's not just people don't know or care. As can be seen in this thread alone, people actively fight against improving things.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
No one wants quotas. They want a climate where actual, tangible female colleagues are considered as equals by more people, and where women aren't apprehensive to get into games in the first place. Expressing frustration at a symptom of a problem does not preclude being aware of the cause(s) of the problem.
Gotdatmoney
Member
You don't need experts to tell you this. Just google wonen in stem fields. Women leave stem fields and male dominated fiels in general because they suffer poor treatment from their male colleagues and they see lesser ability for advancement.
What if I told you this is a thoroughly reasearched area of study and incentivising hiring women and retention was the most obvious solution? You seem to think everyone arrived at the solution hastily despite the fact that so many industry do infact use preferential hiring because it yields better results in the work environment and if they don't act the default of male hiring always returns. So I ask you, do think no one here researched this before we suggested it?
Men get bitter about preferential hiring because they are pissy that they are not getting to continue living in a world that allows them to flatout have advantages for being men. Fuck that. I have flat out told guys who complain about it to shut up. No company hires someone who lacks the ability to do the job. If men are salty about it so be it. And women need not feel like they got a handout. I know lots of women who want to feel like they got hired on merit and not sex. But everyone has to face facts, the default of competency is a white male. They are never going to win that battle unless we actaully do something.
And people have the stupidest fucking aversion to quotas. The can be a good thing. They can have entirely positive affects. Let me give you purely factual example. Where I went to university the medical school sets aside specific seats for people who live in the southwestern region. If you live there your odds of attending this medical school are amplified. This is done because 80% of the schools population lives in a highly dense metropolitan and they have been demonstratably proven to not stay in the area to practice medicine. So in order to better ensure all the talent doesnt leave to the city they specifically choose qualified indivduals located in that area. And it works because positions are about more tham experience and checkmark qualifications
Imagine that.
nephilimdj
Member
I think the best thing that could come from this is if Geoff could get the industry to sponsor some paid internship for upcoming female journalists or something. Rather then a kneejerk female quota.
-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-
Banned
I'm certainly not going to go a step further and assume they're lying.
Ask for a show of hands if you're so inclined. Or just use Twitter for measurements.
Sephiroth_VII
Member
There is always more than one way to tackle any given issue,
I think most people were for ending WWII, but many were still against using nuclear weapons on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
Not saying that it was in any way equivalent to deciding to change the composition of the judges panel at the VGA's, obviously. Just trying to clarify my thoughts on the issue. Come to think of it, going into Afghanistan to end terrorism might have been a better analogy. Dropping the A-bomb did actually end WWII, after all.
Uhh...are we in the same thread? Based on the last few pages it certainly feels that they do.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Please find me some quotes where people are specifically asking for quotas.
I don't want feelings, I want facts.
Brazil dropping truth bombs. Snap.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
There is no shortage of men who has had the years of exposure and experience to speak express their expertise on a subject as colorful as video games. But there are small subset of women who have just as much years, skills and qualification to do the same thing but aren't seen as best for the job because they are essentially "unknown". How are we to judge anything or get any perspective by listening to the same people?
Statistically they are a minority, not less qualified.
I've understood your post so far but the point you are making is no different than the others who are basically just better with the idea of who's built for the job is better for the job, yet ignoring that the diversity that is wanted and we won't get that if we continue to keep giving the same people the same opportunities they are normally always giving access too and not allowing those without the opportunity but the qualifications, to also join. It's no secret that if we look at the numbers, yes, men outnumber women by a lot and they have everything to back it up.
However, it's not encouraging to see the people who have it all telling others, who don't and still won't, to join a club that they still don't and won't have the same acceptance as these people do. On top of that, if none of these men outside of their usual gaming personas advocate for the change that is needed to encourage those who are on the fence, to join then once again, what's the point? Who is this helping? What change is being shown here that can become something positive for the future?
All these sites making an effort to take themselves out the larger pool and nominate someone who has great, if not better qualifications than the 100+ out there who on any giving day of the week would have been picked, is more powerful to me. Just saying that simple line, is basically saying that the cycle will remain what it is.
Minorities don't have the opportunity to get to the same level or even get the recognition deserved if not given the chance. So (imo) it's not a matter of an artificial quota. It's the matter of giving someone who is just as qualified but in a smaller pool, the chance to be apart of something they will most likely never be able to be apart of ever.
I can only do my part as much as I can, but if the industry isn't willing to change, and if fans a like are so bothered by the idea of someone of a different color, gender or religion, having a chance to discuss their expertise of the very medium they love, then progress will never happen.
Waiving this off as, well hire the most qualified person which ends up being the most popular person is not the right way. Also, I'm not saying that the most qualified person should never be consider if it comes down to A and B....but it's highly suspect that when there is someone that is better, they are simply just not as good enough and sometimes it will come down to personal preference and what is a better representation of the face of the company/organization/etc.
On mobile so it'd be difficult to quote, but there's def quite a few people on here from the past five ten pages that essentially want quotas.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Lying about what? I don't think I even saw 1 person stating their gender in this thread.-=::[Eagle-Vision]::=-;185996093 said:
I'm leaving in a sec so I don't have time to look for quotes in multi-page conversations, but people are literally calling for Geoff to have asked for alternate candidates once he saw the gender imbalance. You have been perfectly rational though, so I'll go with the assumption that the more outlandish posts are just standing out.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Facts, not feelings
They tend to do that, I agree. That's why it's important to note the more realistic posts as well.
Like I've said, I don't think boycotting will have any effect, and this isn't an issue that starts and stops with the VGAs and Keighly. Positive, sensible feedback and more critical thinking on all sides, long term, is necessary.
Zambayoshi
Member
1. So basically trying to pressure them into nominating someone other than a straight white male? This is what 'valuing diversity' is analogous to.
2. You are assuming there are sites and places that conform to your arbitrary specifications that are statistically relevant in the gaming space. Are there any? I don't know what sort of clicks Biogamergirl reviews get, but I'm pretty sure Geoff would have invited the outlets with the biggest presence and readerships rather than smaller sites.
3. You are assuming he's done something wrong that could have been avoided if he'd sought 'the right advice'. What's he done wrong?
Sephiroth_VII
Member
No one I've quoted has suggested that until now, actually. That's a great idea, but not as great as enforcing "blind" recruitment processes, IMO.
You really need to calm down a bit. Nowhere in my posts have I talked about this. And of course companies sometimes hire people who can't do their job properly, you see it all the time. What are you trying to say here?
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Lol.
Is this a thread if it's even distribution?
Can't wait for your 'facts, not feelings' response.
SolicitorPirate
Member
The comparison is a poor choice, and I think you will agree with me there. That said, I understand and sympathise with your motivation but utterly reject your argument.
The automatic revulsion and disapproval of the idea of a quota is uncritical and founded in ignorance. Quotas when used meaningfully, are a powerful tool to correct a historically imbalance that is unlikely to self correct. At this stage, white and male opinions are disproportionately valued and as a result, such opinions are more likely to be given a platform, further reinforcing the view that those opinions are the most valid.
The only way to correct that is to involve more women and racial minorities, but that is unlikely to happen organically because the wider community has already been conditioned to devalue such opinions.
Look, I come from a country that has actively used racial quotas to disadvantage and drive off targeted minority groups. I know what its like to live in a society where corporate and university make ups are specifically engineered to benefit certain groups to the detriment of others. Quotas used maliciously are a terrible thing. Asking for more female jurors and voices in games is nothing like that.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
What do people really expect to gain from lying about this?
If it's there, pull it. Not hard.
ieptbarakat
Member
This situation wouldn't exist and this thread wouldn't have been made if the jury had the diversity quota people are asking for in the first place, that's a fact.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Yea, so do it.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I'm not the one accusing people of calling for quotas, so why would I do that work?
timmyp53
Member
Shadoken
Member
This is slightly OT but I am curious which country?