He's 62 and an admitted racist. In today's climate he's persona non grata. Justifiably so.
Triple H addresses fan frustration with WWE; admits they feel the same way.
- Thread starter Oddduck
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They need to clean house with the writers and Kevin Dunn. Get some well-regarded union people who are big fans of wrestling but know how to bring great new storylines to the table.
Unfortunately I don't see much changing.I only watch the occasional RAW/Smackdown and some of the PPVs.
Unfortunately I don't see much changing.I only watch the occasional RAW/Smackdown and some of the PPVs.
Cause it worked at the time. Times change and have to evolve. From 2002-2008 it was still TV-14 and it stopped working.
No one wants Katie Vick anymore. In that time women were stripping and getting beat up by men. Those days are dead. NXT is popular because women are putting on great matches and not having bra and panties matches.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They took Cena off the air and the quality took a nosedive so basically yes.
There was a hell of a lot more different between then and now than just blood and tits.
It speaks volumes to the kind of year they had in 2015 when John Cena is universally heralded as a bright spot of the year even being in at least two of the best matches with the Rumble Triple Threat and whichever one of the Owens matches you prefer.
Isn't one of WWE's greatest failures is that in the age of Cena and now Reigns, they have absolutely fed the roster to one or both of these main?
Everyone on the entire roster looks like they peak at midcard levels. That's fucking bad. Who can care about Reigns when he's not an actual main eventer, but a guy at the playground? Who is in his main event realm? Sheamus? The guy who they didn't have anything for months on end?
Everyone on the entire roster looks like they peak at midcard levels. That's fucking bad. Who can care about Reigns when he's not an actual main eventer, but a guy at the playground? Who is in his main event realm? Sheamus? The guy who they didn't have anything for months on end?
Have to agree here. Bring back Hulk and let the attitude era part 2 begin. Have Trump wrestle Alberto Del Rio.
Keyser Soze
Member
I'd argue that that edginess coincided with some quality writing, that was adaptive to the needs of the fans. You can have quality writing , and be willing to appease the fans wants without going PG-14. I don't see what PG-14 would achieve nowadays. Over the years of PG WWE has still had lots of leeway. They can still bleed every now and then - not regularly. They can still perform impactful dangerous stunts, and they can still use chairs, kendo sticks aggressively enough to leave a bruise. Within the current rules, I think they would even be able to redo a version of Tommy Dreamer's famous "can I have some more" promo, and that was a very aggressive piece of storytelling at the time.
One of the big draws of TV-14 was having half naked womens on screen, and I think those ideas are best left in the 90s. Women wrestling can become a huge draw for WWE this decade if they want it to be. If any of the current roster are put in a bra and panites match, I think I will roll up and die.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
They can't fix it while Vince has veto power. He can't talk about the brass ring while he chains his talent to the ground.
Hey man, don't talk like that to the great FartOfWar!
HarryDemeanor
Member
Get rid of this man.
s_mirage
Member
The problem is that it's already been done, and this time there's no WCW for them to be up against. No anticipation of what each company would do next to one-up the other. I'd like the product to be a bit edgier but an increased rating alone won't solve the problems. IMO, in terms of presentation, what needs to change is not necessarily the rating but get rid of how bland and corporate everything feels. Also, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't WCW PG when it was winning the Monday Night Wars (before it imploded)?
Vince needs to retire and Kevin Dunn needs to go. Ignoring the obvious booking and writing problems, they need to mix up production so that everything doesn't look constantly the same, and stop trying to script and micromanage everything from promos to commentary. Bring some spontaneity back. Hell, even my mom commented, when she caught an episode of Raw recently, about how dull the commentary is these days. The promos are no better; can you imagine how diminished a character like Randy Savage would have been if he had just been made to read from the piss poor scripts they have to now?
Then there's Smackdown. Why not bring back the brand split, or at least have different bookers/production crews running the two shows? Just do something to take advantage of the fact that they have two different shows. Smackdown has been completely missable for years because it seems like they're scared of taking any focus away from Raw. Only, Raw itself has been pretty shit for quite some time.
TV-14 doesn't have to mean bra and panties matches. Hell it could be used to give the women a chance to do some proper wrestling and do some high risk moves.
At the moment the product is piss poor but could become so much better if they let the wrestlers actually do things and make things unpredictable. It's all so earth shatteringly predictable. Everyone knew Reigns would win the tournament and sheamus would cash in. There was no fucking surprise. And to top it all off we see people like Ziggler and Cesaro, who work their arses off every time they are in the ring, get fucked over because people like Vince and Dunn don't think they have what it takes etc. Bullshit. Everyone likes watching Cesaro wrestle, the guys fucking great, but the fact that management cannot see that is stunning. The man's over with the fans.
I'm stunned that New day haven't been split up yet given that they got over with people on their own and not because of management.
At the moment the product is piss poor but could become so much better if they let the wrestlers actually do things and make things unpredictable. It's all so earth shatteringly predictable. Everyone knew Reigns would win the tournament and sheamus would cash in. There was no fucking surprise. And to top it all off we see people like Ziggler and Cesaro, who work their arses off every time they are in the ring, get fucked over because people like Vince and Dunn don't think they have what it takes etc. Bullshit. Everyone likes watching Cesaro wrestle, the guys fucking great, but the fact that management cannot see that is stunning. The man's over with the fans.
I'm stunned that New day haven't been split up yet given that they got over with people on their own and not because of management.
Dark Ninja
Member
The show has been trash for years enough people finally had enough with the anti-fan booking, being insulted every week and stopped watching. Vince is still gonna keep waving his dick around every Monday until the ship sinks into the abyss.
Gaiaknight
Member
until raw is under the complete control of HHH Vince will continue to not let things change say what you want about HHH when he was an active wrestler but he does wonders with NXT and he could do the same for raw.
One of the main problems with WWE right now to me is that they refuse to almost ever use gimmick matches outside of specialty PPV's.
Randy Orton and Sheamus fight for the billionth time on PPV and once again it's a standard singles match you would get on Raw. If you're going to repeat the same match a thousand times add a stipulation like last man standing or falls count anywhere. Add something to spice up the monotonous nature of the current product.
Randy Orton and Sheamus fight for the billionth time on PPV and once again it's a standard singles match you would get on Raw. If you're going to repeat the same match a thousand times add a stipulation like last man standing or falls count anywhere. Add something to spice up the monotonous nature of the current product.
I agree with the impossible-to-do-now cut to 90 minutes. Can't stretch yourself out too thin with filler vignettes and long-winded promos. Sometimes less is more. I'd be ok with the regular 2 hours, but 3 is ridiculous. If imagine you burn through writing so fast that way.
Speaking of writing....
I watch briefly from time to time for about 10 minutes or so, and the commentary is absolutely terrible, JBL specifically. Two men max is all there should be with a special guest appearance from a heel once in a while to talk smack during a match. I literally can't bear the announcer team for more than those 10 minutes. I don't remember it ever being this bad around 2010ish
Speaking of writing....
I watch briefly from time to time for about 10 minutes or so, and the commentary is absolutely terrible, JBL specifically. Two men max is all there should be with a special guest appearance from a heel once in a while to talk smack during a match. I literally can't bear the announcer team for more than those 10 minutes. I don't remember it ever being this bad around 2010ish
If you guys think Raw is bad, wait till you see the recently recorded Tribute To The Troops special in which.....
How do these things even happen?
Jack Swagger, an American Patriot for those that don't know taps out to a foreigner (Rusev) in the opening match.
A heel jobber (Bo Dallas) plays an Uncle Sam character and is defeated in quick fashion by Mark Henry.
How do these things even happen?
MaverickHunterX
Member
This. This was the last WM I watched whole-heartedly (though I watch bits and pieces here on the network, it's mostly classic stuffs)
It was bad enough that they fucked Mick Foley at WM2000 (of all people, they had to give it to Triple H?), but they had to ruin Austin the following year? (That "What?" shit was the worse - though I loved Pipers response to it)
Go back to 4 ppv's a year. 5 at most. Give feuds time to slow boil. Bring back managers and stables. Give WRESTLERS time to tell their stories in ring. Don't have WRESTLERS flip-flopping heel and face every few weeks. Stop scripting the announcers and have a definitive heel/face/color grouping. Stop burying your new WRESTLERS. The damage done to Rusev has been irreparable.
Keyser Soze
Member
Women are making children cry wth heel antics, doing powerbombs, hurricanranas, reverse hurricanranas from the top rope and suicide dives in NXT. They are doing moves on the ring apron, throwing each other at the the stage rigging, trying to break each other's hand, and Nia Jax threw Bayley through a fucking door. This is all PG, but more importantly works with the storyline of the various matches.
PG can, and currently very much is, making a highly compelling product. A show can be aggressive, brutal, but also vitally make logical sense without stopping up to TV-14.
You can find all of my theories on my Geocities page with the sweet DX midi playing in the background.
Keyser Soze
Member
It was in the same hole then as it is now, they've just dug himself a bit deeper.
Ninja Scooter
Member
There was a time for it, and that time was perfect back then. It wasn't just the "mature" content, but keep in mind that the attitude era hit just before the Internet really blew up so they were able to successfully blur the line between work without social media blowing up their spot.
As for the content itself, it came at a time where calling someone a bitch or flipping the bird was seen as edgy television. It was also the time when NYPD Blue made headlines for having an exposed ass on television. Nowadays millennials watch shit like Game of Thrones with fairly graphic sex and violence and don't even bat an eye. WWE could not push the envelope far enough to be seen as edgy in 2016.
Pretty much. Now more than ever, they could use a return of the attitude era... but they wouldn't dare to do that now that we're in such a politically correct time. They're also trying super hard to promote the show to little kids and I'm sure they're worried about anything attitude-ish scaring them off (or their parents)
But really, like others have said, the show is boring, predictable and the storylines are either stupid or make no sense.
And just as important... they aren't building up any of their talent through storylines like they used to. You have a guy like Bray Wyatt who could be awesome and have this really creepy, powerful stable, but he just seems like he gets buried all the time ever since he went against Cena. That was a huge botched opportunity.
You can look at a guy like Roman Reigns who they want to push so badly. He's the chosen one that nobody except for kids wants. They could've had a great story where the authority helps him to win the title at Survivor Series and he turns heel. Becomes their chosen champion like The Rock was back then. He would've screwed over his teammate and fan favorite, Dean Ambrose plus half the crowd already doesn't care for him. He would've had so much heat. Plus when Rollins came back, he could've been pissed off that the authority basically ditched him for Reigns. Would've been a nice way to have the three of them going at each other... but they blew that. They just make awful decisions as far as the storylines go. And now Sheamus is the champion. Nobody wants that.
They have no stars right now and haven't built up other guys enough to make up for it. CM Punk could've been one but they ran him off. They have Cena but just like with Reigns, half the fans can't stand him. They'll let him break Flair's record and people will dislike him even more. I don't know if it's the storylines or what but most of the wrestlers they have right now just aren't very entertaining on the mic.
They have some good "young" talent like Kevin Owens, Rusev, Neville and Dean Ambrose but there's no doubt in my mind that they'll just screw things up with them. They need to figure something out soon though to help build these guys up and make things more interesting.
Also, please start letting big titles change hands on shows like Raw sometimes. That used to happen every now and then when wrestling was at it's most popular. Now you know it won't happen unless it's a PPV. So what's the point in watching pointless matches on Monday nights if you can just tune in once a month? They need to make it more unpredictable.
Smokey_Run
Member
I think they need to contract and get back to basics in order to move forward. They've become too bloated for their own good. Too much trying to be cool using all these social media platforms instead of just letting it come naturally. Their demographics skew older, but the product is aimed for a younger audience. I'd love to see the numbers for who actually contributes more to the company. I would put a premium on those with disposable income instead of trying to make money off of parents who might not be so inclined, but maybe I'm completely wrong.
In my scenario, they lose a ton of contracts and partners, so it will never happen. I can just hope for story continuity, better booking, pushing more talent, and fixing the commentary.
It wasn't just the edginess. The Attitude era was fun because of all the personalities, gimmicks, and catch phrases.
You had guys like: The Rock, Stone Cold, Mankind, Kane, Undertaker, Chris Jericho, The Big Bossman, Al Snow, The New Age Outlaws, D-Generation X, the list goes on.
There aren't as many big personalities in WWE nowadays. They do a horrible job developing their talent. They also focus too much on wrestlers that lack mic skills, and mic skills are necessary if you want to tell a compelling story. Back in the Attitude era, some C-list wrestler like Road Dogg or The Godfather or Val Venus would grab the microphone, and it was fun to listen to him.
I find it strange how today's PG era Raw, which is supposedly targeting children, feels less cartoony than the Attitude era and the 80's era of wrestling.
Union Carbine
Member
I follow the WWE out of nostalgia but I don't actually watch at all. I'll check out some clips online, read the recaps, etc. This past week, for the first time in forever, I tuned into RAW. It was awful.
I don't understand booking the same matches over and over again or booking matches with foregone conclusions. If Kevin Owens is going to face Dean Ambrose for his belt at the next PPV, he's not going to lose to Dolph Ziggler tonight. And I can't stand the 50/50 booking.
Wouldn't it be better to keep the champs out of the ring and save their matches for PPVs and big events (they can still interfere, promo, hang backstage, etc) and let the challengers, hopefuls, and other talent see some ring time and jduke it out.
They handle stables terribly now, New Day aside I guess. The Wyatts are stuck in some weird loop and never seem to payoff the promise of their menace and mystery.
For them to claim that they're frustrated too and that injuries hamstrung them feel like very lame excuses. They've got a huge roster and a lot of talent. This isn't injuries, this is an extended period of creative bankruptcy coming back to bite them.
I don't understand booking the same matches over and over again or booking matches with foregone conclusions. If Kevin Owens is going to face Dean Ambrose for his belt at the next PPV, he's not going to lose to Dolph Ziggler tonight. And I can't stand the 50/50 booking.
Wouldn't it be better to keep the champs out of the ring and save their matches for PPVs and big events (they can still interfere, promo, hang backstage, etc) and let the challengers, hopefuls, and other talent see some ring time and jduke it out.
They handle stables terribly now, New Day aside I guess. The Wyatts are stuck in some weird loop and never seem to payoff the promise of their menace and mystery.
For them to claim that they're frustrated too and that injuries hamstrung them feel like very lame excuses. They've got a huge roster and a lot of talent. This isn't injuries, this is an extended period of creative bankruptcy coming back to bite them.
80's/early 90's wrestling is way more entertaining. I wouldn't flip the channel from that.
Attitude era I might flip away from, but leagues better than this for sure. I don't think wrestling should ever be fully mainstream, works best as an insulated fringe mainstream you don't quite understand the workings of as that adds to the intrigue.
Attitude era I might flip away from, but leagues better than this for sure. I don't think wrestling should ever be fully mainstream, works best as an insulated fringe mainstream you don't quite understand the workings of as that adds to the intrigue.
They fed the entire roster for years to Cena. They dug their own hole and should at least admit they fucked up. Not just say yeah we know people think it sucks.
Every time the fans tried to build up someone you made sure Cena came rushing in to crush them as hard as he could. I mean it took people ready to basically burn the WWE to the ground to give Daniel Bryan a chance.
Now they try to make Cena 2.0 with Reigns
Every time the fans tried to build up someone you made sure Cena came rushing in to crush them as hard as he could. I mean it took people ready to basically burn the WWE to the ground to give Daniel Bryan a chance.
Now they try to make Cena 2.0 with Reigns
You know one big thing that would go a long way to fixing the product?
Take a break...4 - 6 months at least and send everyone from jobber to main event to the performance center. Give the entire roster the same training the NXT people are getting. I feel that is where a lot of the disconnect is....the main roster's training. FCW or OVW was just no where near the level of expertise they are learning there.
Look at what Charlotte did in NXT with no prior wrestling experience.
Give that to the main roster and evaluate them after the break to see if they can return to TV or not and return with those on the roster that are ready for a fresh run at Raw.
Take a break...4 - 6 months at least and send everyone from jobber to main event to the performance center. Give the entire roster the same training the NXT people are getting. I feel that is where a lot of the disconnect is....the main roster's training. FCW or OVW was just no where near the level of expertise they are learning there.
Look at what Charlotte did in NXT with no prior wrestling experience.
Give that to the main roster and evaluate them after the break to see if they can return to TV or not and return with those on the roster that are ready for a fresh run at Raw.
non-PG wouldn't make a bit of difference
you lapsed fans miss good story telling, not non-PG content. the attitude era succeeded because the storytelling and characters were compelling. 2002 and on WWE was still non-PG, yet the ratings suffered because the show was less compelling. there was no wcw, so vince didn't have to try as hard. we are still feeling the results of that today, now worse than ever.
you lapsed fans miss good story telling, not non-PG content. the attitude era succeeded because the storytelling and characters were compelling. 2002 and on WWE was still non-PG, yet the ratings suffered because the show was less compelling. there was no wcw, so vince didn't have to try as hard. we are still feeling the results of that today, now worse than ever.
My wife and I used to love watching RAW. She hasnt watched more than a few minutes here and there in close to 2 years. Im not far behind.
My issues:
3 hour show. 2 Hours was more than enough.
Virtually no surprises or wow moments anymore. Stale as hell.
Reliance of the same, tired, boring top guys. Now that most of them are injured, its headless chicken time.
Way too many guys still hanging around when they are well past their use by date.
No continuity from show to show. Back in Attitude era, story lines lasted from PPV to PPV and longer. I dont care now as none of it matters, nor makes sense.
Plenty of talent just wasting away with almost no light at the end of the tunnel.
...And the biggest gripe.... If Vince is still involved, nothing tangible will change.
My issues:
3 hour show. 2 Hours was more than enough.
Virtually no surprises or wow moments anymore. Stale as hell.
Reliance of the same, tired, boring top guys. Now that most of them are injured, its headless chicken time.
Way too many guys still hanging around when they are well past their use by date.
No continuity from show to show. Back in Attitude era, story lines lasted from PPV to PPV and longer. I dont care now as none of it matters, nor makes sense.
Plenty of talent just wasting away with almost no light at the end of the tunnel.
...And the biggest gripe.... If Vince is still involved, nothing tangible will change.
iceblade997
Member
Definitely. It's like a clock almost. Maybe he'll get beaten once or twice on occasion, but his time always comes when he winds up winning and it still seems disproportionate to other people on the roster. The show is way too predictable by now. That and the overly long mic segments at the start of Raw each week (and indeed the overly long Raw episodes but those don't seem like they'll go anywhere).
Simply Sami
Member
I love how people moaning about Vince.
The authority are the worst thing in the WWE, which involves Triple H and Stephanie. Them coming out and putting everyone down every week. The divas all scared of Stephanie. There hasn't really been a pay off with them.
Vince and Shane at least used to end up getting beat up.
NXT and Raw are aimed at two different demographics. It is also Stephanie who hired all these Hollywood writers. She had problems with Heyman, when he was on creative.
It's not just all Vince you know.
As soon as these NXT stars come to RAW the authority will put them down as usual.
The authority are the worst thing in the WWE, which involves Triple H and Stephanie. Them coming out and putting everyone down every week. The divas all scared of Stephanie. There hasn't really been a pay off with them.
Vince and Shane at least used to end up getting beat up.
NXT and Raw are aimed at two different demographics. It is also Stephanie who hired all these Hollywood writers. She had problems with Heyman, when he was on creative.
It's not just all Vince you know.
As soon as these NXT stars come to RAW the authority will put them down as usual.
He still is better than everyone on the roster.
exactly. people forget he's still the one with final say. not triple h, not steph, and certainly not any of the 20+ writers.
Union Carbine
Member
The problem with the Attitude era is that they, to use a smark term, hotshotted non-stop for years and it's basically led to a mass change in fan expectations. A bunch of the wrestling "insider" podcasts have covered this to some degree or another, how that approach is like going nuclear-- it generates a ton of energy and then burns out. It was something only done as a last resort. At the time of the Monday Night wars, as desperate as WWF was, it made sense, but they're still dealing with the aftershocks of hotshotting for that long.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
Why don't they just make the wrestlers fight for real? I get that the WWE is wrestling soap opera's but maybe things are predictable now and is starting to look really fake that the acting no longer feels believable?
s_mirage
Member
IMHO you're right. I don't think the existence of the network has really helped here, as it seems to have reduced the need for good build ups in order to sell PPVs.
Either that or if they're going to have title matches on TV, actually have the titles change hands there occasionally. Not WCW-like changing hands every week, but just once in a while so that you're never 100% sure of the result and actually have a reason to tune in. More unexpected twists in the storylines might help too. Again, not late WCW-like constant swerves, but enough that viewers feel that they might miss something important if they don't tune in.
Battersea Power Station
Member
I'm only speaking for myself here as a non-fan:
I used to live with a roommate who's into it (buys DVDs, subscribes to the VOD service) and I watched it once in a while. The whole soap opera/comic book stuff put me off. Like, it was never well acted, it was never clever, and there were too many inconsistencies to ever allow one's disbelief to be suspended.
However, the athleticism is amazing. Watching some old Brock Lesnar matches or whatever he put on from time to time (I think I watched some good stuff featuring Undertaker, Kurt Angle, HHH, and maybe Mankind for the craziness of it) was highly entertaining.
I would totally watch if they found a format to display those skills and that athelticism that didn't subject me to intros, "commentary," skits, and whatever else. I don't know if that format exists or what it would be (something like the Japanese-style obstacle shows, maybe, but somehow interactive) but it's worth exploring.
They're not going to grow their business by just focusing on current and lapsed fans, as much as you guys are into the stories and characters. To keep a business healthy, you always have to be reaching new people.
I used to live with a roommate who's into it (buys DVDs, subscribes to the VOD service) and I watched it once in a while. The whole soap opera/comic book stuff put me off. Like, it was never well acted, it was never clever, and there were too many inconsistencies to ever allow one's disbelief to be suspended.
However, the athleticism is amazing. Watching some old Brock Lesnar matches or whatever he put on from time to time (I think I watched some good stuff featuring Undertaker, Kurt Angle, HHH, and maybe Mankind for the craziness of it) was highly entertaining.
I would totally watch if they found a format to display those skills and that athelticism that didn't subject me to intros, "commentary," skits, and whatever else. I don't know if that format exists or what it would be (something like the Japanese-style obstacle shows, maybe, but somehow interactive) but it's worth exploring.
They're not going to grow their business by just focusing on current and lapsed fans, as much as you guys are into the stories and characters. To keep a business healthy, you always have to be reaching new people.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Have you actually seen professional wrestling? These guys damn near kill themselves when they aren't trying to hurt each other
Man. That would be bad...
I get the idea, but for the schedule? They would all be dead and murdering families in record time.
It's Vince's show. He eats the blame.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I really liked the Cena/Rollins SummerSlam match too.
People just like to use Dunn and Vince as a scapegoat for everything. That somehow removing them would solve everything and make wrestling great. Somehow
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