Star Wars VII doesn't respect the original trilogy (spoilers)

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Principate

Saint Titanfall
Being able to launch it via hyperspace turned the Death Star into a stealth weapon.

I thought it was a nice take on an old idea.



This.



Kylo Ren didn’t give a shit about the base at the time and only cared about where the map was. Finn freed Poe and helped him escape 2 minutes later.

Exactly incompetance, It's highly unlikely he was the only rebel fighter to have been captured, during his escapades, and he could easily have captured another if he wanted to. That same rebel squardon took down the likely super expensive, superweapon. The antgonists in the film are just dripping with it. Not even the Villains in the PT were half as incompetant as you see on display in this film. Which really says something
 
Han is a terrible mechanic, and the Millenium Falcon is a heap of junk because he basically tacked on modifications onto top of modifications without any regard for how they work together. This is the foundation for one of the main plots of ESB, for chrissake.

Meanwhile, not only has Rey spent her life making sure that tech stuff still works, the Falcon was sitting in her boss's junkyard for years AND she's done work on it.

Seriously, where does this thing about Han supposedly being an expert mechanic come from?

His penis.
 
Exactly incompetance, It's highly unlikely he was the only rebel fighter to have been captured, during his escapades, and he could easily have captured another if he wanted to. That same rebel squardon took down the likely super expensive, superweapon. The antgonists in the film are just dripping with it. Not even the Villains in the PT were half as incompetant as you see on display in this film. Which really says something

Or you're just nit picking it to death.

That and Ren making bad decisions is part of his character.
 
Calling something a nitpick is dismissive. If it's enough for someone to question and it takes them out of the movie, it's not a nitpick.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Noticed how the director did the same trick he did in Star Trek with planets exploding a longggg distance away being viewable to the main characters on another planet. Why could they see the planets in the Hosnian being destroyed?
This fact makes me literally facepalm.

There's a lot of stuff in this movie that, were it brought up at a design meeting, I would immediately raise an objection to.

All this talk before release about Star Wars being in the most capable hands... It really wasn't. That wasn't the ideal reboot. Flawed script, flawed director. There is plenty that JJ clearly doesn't understand about the DNA of Star Wars filmmaking.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
Or you're just nit picking it to death.

That and Ren making bad decisions is part of his character.

That's one miltary force, that can oppose the First Order and they didn't even bother at all in their existence to bother finding out where their base was despite it being very easy to. And you call that nittpicking. I'm starting to think the stories you enjoy are plot whole filled trainwrecks.

Just because you like a story it's alright to call bad writing what it is. Most popular actions stories have it in some form, it's not knit picking when the flaws are glaringly obvious. Like the fact the heroes are generally crack shots while the antagonists typically can't aim for shit.
 
This fact makes me literally facepalm.

There's a lot of stuff in this movie that, were it brought up at a design meeting, I would immediately raise an objection to.

All this talk before release about Star Wars being in the most capable hands... It really wasn't. That wasn't the ideal reboot. Flawed script, flawed director. There is plenty that JJ clearly doesn't understand about the DNA of Star Wars filmmaking.
As mentioned on the previous page they're seeing a rip in hyperspace caused by the blast, not the planets destruction. There's definitely a few flaws in the script but I thought JJ did a fantastic job directing. It felt and looked like a Star Wars movie from start to finish except perhaps the helicopter shot.
 
I finished the TFA with a lot of question that the more I think about, the less satisfied with the movie I am.

1. Why is the republic apparently situated on planets that are right next to each other? The republic controls half the galaxy right? Why do we only really see the republic just before it's destroyed?
2. Why has no one in the resistance/republic heard about the superweapon? The thing is bigger than the death star. There are spies everywhere, apparently even in Maz's bar. How do you hide something that would take years to build like that without some info getting out?
3. Why did Poe stay behind and try to continue to fight in the first action scene? Why is Poe that fucking stupid? Furthermore, where was he after they crash landed? What was he doing? Did Poe bail out before Finn or vice versa? Is that why they couldn't find each other? If so, why not show us that?
4. How did Kylo catch up with Finn and Rey when they were running from the base? They had a huge head start, and Kylo was wounded?
5. Why did Snoke not finish Kylo's training? This could be answered in the sequel, but why would he put Kylo half in charge of the giant superweapon potentially unprepared?
6. Why does Leia not care about seeing her brother at the end? I get that Rey should probably be the first one to see him, but why does she actively not seem to care about going to see her brother?
7. Not really a problem, but fuck whoever decided to make Captain Phasma useless. Maybe making her being Boba Fett-esque was a joke, but no one was laughing at it.

And I know what some of you are thinking. You're looking at this list, and thinking, wow this guy must not be any fun at all.
You're probably right, but ignore that for a second.

1. The New Republic's capital is in the Hosnian system, on Hosnian Prime. Think of it like Washington DC while the Senate and House are in session. The rest of the New Republic is incidental to the story being told.

2. First Order soldiers are all literally brainwashed and don't defect. (Finn is completely counter to how the First Order organization works. People don't realize how unheard of his defection is.) Much like the First Order didn't know about the Resistance base, the Resistance didn't know about the First Order's. Best I got.

3. He attempted to leave, his X-wing got shot. He stayed to give BB-8 time to get away. Poe walked away from the crash directly and got offworld, because what's the use in searching far and wide in a desert for one person? Finn had a burning wreck to walk towards. Why not show us that? They figured you could make the connection.

4. Well, the alternative is extended scenes of them wandering lost through the forest before Ren uses the Dark Side to hone in on them. Same end.

5. Kylo has autonomy in the First Order, but Hux is the one in charge of Starkiller. Why did Snoke not finish Kylo's training? This could be answered in the sequel, but why would he put Kylo half in charge of the giant superweapon potentially unprepared?

6. That was always the plan, but originally it was going to be Poe. Realize, Leia thinks Luke is important, but the rest of the Resistance is all about the First Order. From the novel:

She would have followed up on it herself, for who better to search for clues to the location of a missing brother than his own sister? When she had proposed the idea, the shock of objection on the part of her fellow Resistance leaders could have been heard halfway across the galaxy. Reluctantly, she had conceded to reason. Someone would go in her stead.

The scene further goes on to show Resistance leaders being salty she even sent Poe. Does she want to see her brother? Yes. Does she think he's important? Yes. But she's the General. Leia's got shit to do.

7. Yeah, got nothing here.

And where are all the rebel alliance cap ships? Where is everything?

Apparently Mon Mothma, who seemed to lead the DSII assault briefing, ordered the "new" Republic to do a full de-militarization, but would that really include every Mon Calamari cruiser? Is this why Admiral "Its a trap" Ackbar is trapped on the rebooted overgrown temple Yavin IV rebe...resistance base?

In control of the New Republic fleet.

Did we discuss yet why there are no B- or Y-Wings in the Starkiller base bombing run so the audience could easily get who is who? Tie Fighter BAD, X-Wing GOOD.

Well, you seem to know the reason behind this choice.

Why Leia has no scene whatsoever with Chewie after their both partner in crime Han dies?

Because she's a supporting cast member and their hoping you didn't need an extra 15 seconds of Chewie hugging Leia.

Why everyone knows everything about BB-8 and our two heroes after they are airborne with the Falcon for like 1 minute?

Han does, because he's been tracking the Falcon. The Order doesn't find out until Maz' bar. This one is explicitly stated in the film.

How the universe in TFA feels smaller than in the OT. Resistance + Leia arrive like 5 minutes after they are alarmed by a pirate cantina spy. How fast is Hyperspace in JJAbrams land? And if it is that fast and easy, why are there even people living on less lush worlds if it is a 5minute trip to get to a nice world?

Owning a ship or having the money to travel is a luxury, much like it is in the real world. All Abrams did was cut out scenes on ship. We technically have no clue how long travel times are.

And why can a fully formed Starkiller base be destroyed after a 2 minutes brainstorm session, a hint from a janitor and 8 X-Wings?

Story pacing.

How Starkiller base can move around, or not? Do we know yet?
How it shoots? Through motherfrigging Hyperspace?!
How its beams can arc around?

Useless pedantic information.
How fast can they move back and forth and how close must Starkiller base be to both Takodana, the Resistance base Yavin IV world, Jakku and those poor innocent Republic worlds that get blown up instead of something of importance?

Here you go.

EDIT: The answer to all this is that TFA is a script built around visual story telling and done so with a hot needle. Everything serves under the premise of where characters have to be at certain times for maximum impact or pace or easy understanding, but it is done so by sacrificing established universe rules or basic logic when they get in the way.

Not having scenes of the ships to establish hyperspace travel doesn't mean those actions did not happen. Abrams simply decided those scene would not add anything to the story being told.

The Starkiller Base is not significant to any of the three main characters' plots, so its inclusion feels rushed and hollow. Nobody even talks about the super weapon until it's right about to be fired, so there's no build-up. The destruction of the New Republic leadership carries even less weight than the destruction of Alderaan, and at no point does Starkiller bring the sense of dread the Death Star or even the Death Star II did for the characters. I honestly would have gutted the entire super weapon angle and instead made Starkiller Base just the First Order's headquarters.

Waiting for the supposed legion of people who will tell me otherwise.

This I will agree with.
 

Oppo

Member
I do think Rey should have stumbled in the forest, when the planets exploded, the way Ben did. would have been a nice touch
 

Estocolmo

Member
He's given up on the Jedi after Kylo Ren's turn to the Dark Side. Perhaps he believes that the Jedi are simply not worth the trouble? So, Luke isolates himself from the rest of the galaxy. In doing this, the Jedi would also fade away from existence.

Is this really the Luke Skywalker we remember? Would Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda condone Luke's actions? I would hope not.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Luke Skywalker.

I have been thinking about this, and because we have only seen one of the movies of the new trilogy, we dont know the correct answer.

What if Luke is the reason that Kylo Ren returned to the Dark Side? We all assume that Luke started this Jedi Academy and had a good side philosophy. So what if it was Luke himself that somehow made Kylo turn to the Dark Side? Luke is after all the one that killed Darth Vader, he destroyed the Empire.

And Darth Vader tells Luke in the end of Episode 5 that it is his destiny. Maybe this is what he was talking about? That the dark side in Luke is unavoidable.
 

Nikodemos

Member
I have been thinking about this, and because we have only seen one of the movies of the new trilogy, we dont know the correct answer.

What if Luke is the reason that Kylo Ren returned to the Dark Side? We all assume that Luke started this Jedi Academy and had a good side philosophy. So what if it was Luke himself that somehow made Kylo turn to the Dark Side? Luke is after all the one that killed Darth Vader, he destroyed the Empire.

And Darth Vader tells Luke in the end of Episode 5 that it is his destiny. Maybe this is what he was talking about? That the dark side in Luke is unavoidable.
Maybe that's why he ran away. Both his father and nephew turned to the dark, and he nearly did so when fighting his father. He might be searching for answers on a) whether he will or won't eventually turn as well and b) whether he can somehow prevent it.
 

Astral Dog

Member
Star Wars Episode VII.
With Rey as Luke Skywalker.
Kylo Ren aka Benny as Darth Vader.
Poe Dameron as Han Solo.
Supreme Leader Snoke as the Emperor.
Starkiller as the Death Star #II
Han Solo as Han Solo.
BB 8 as R2D2.
Luke Skywalker as Obi Wan kenobi.
FN-2187 as "Stormtrooper traitor"
Maz Kanata as Master Yoda
 

Estocolmo

Member
Maybe that's why he ran away. Both his father and nephew turned to the dark, and he nearly did so when fighting his father. He might be searching for answers on a) whether he will or won't eventually turn as well and b) whether he can somehow prevent it.

That would explain why he escaped. That he is afraid of who he can become, so he escaped and isolated himself intentionally after the Kylo Ren incident. Maybe Luke is still having an internal battle between the good and dark side.

Remember. JJ said that this new trilogy is about "Who is Luke Skywalker?"
 

neurosyphilis

Definitely not an STD, as I'm a pure.
Yeah I didn't like how Rey was so good with the force with no training what so ever. Using Jedi mind tricks and force pulling Anakin's/Luke's light save out of the snow, but Kylo Ren couldn't. Or resisting Ren's mind trick.
 
Yeah I didn't like how Rey was so good with the force with no training what so ever. Using Jedi mind tricks and force pulling Anakin's/Luke's light save out of the snow, but Kylo Ren couldn't. Or resisting Ren's mind trick.

It's exactly like Luke destroying the Death Star. Can't you see it?
 
It's exactly like Luke destroying the Death Star. Can't you see it?
Luke force pulled the lightsaber to himself on Hoth without having been taught that was even possible yet. He hadnt met Yoda and only knew the force was something to help you focus. Some of the criticisms aren't even thought out.
 

Estocolmo

Member
Yeah I didn't like how Rey was so good with the force with no training what so ever. Using Jedi mind tricks and force pulling Anakin's/Luke's light save out of the snow, but Kylo Ren couldn't. Or resisting Ren's mind trick.

Its not been stated that she hasn't had any Jedi training. I think Rey was one of the students in the Jedi academy that Luke and Kylo was a part of. I saw the Force awakens a second time and Kylo says "This is the girl I have heard so much about" when he meets Rey inside the Starkiller Base.

And when Kylo reads her mind, he finds an ocean and an island. Maybe its him reading the place where of one of the spot that the Luke Jedi Academy was, where Luke is now hiding.
 

Durden77

Member
The only thing I agree with is the fact that the First Order is all of a sudden seemingly as big of a threat as the Empire without any real explanation.

Where did they come from? I have to imagine most people that believed in Empire-type ideals were going extinct when tons of them went down with the Death Star... twice.

Where do they get their funding? Who the hell has got those type of resources, and on top of that would even want to fund pretty much an even bigger Death Star, especially after the last two have been such miserable failures? Along with a massive army?

How big are they actually? They might be 1/4 of the size of the Empire with just better tools at their disposal, which I think would be cool, but the movie never really makes it clear if they're as huge as the Empire once was or smaller. They're just there.

Ect. They just show up and they're like "you need the bad guys so we're the bad guys."

The whole First Order as of now just feels like "the audience wants to see Stormtroopers so here's Stormtroopers" and that's it. But it's more of a problem in presentation than anything. If some more detail was given about their motives and creation, it wouldn't be a problem, and hopefully this will be explored more in VIII and IX. I really hope so, because if not, yeah they're just somehow the Empire again pretty much. Thought we beat those guys pretty good.
 
The only thing I agree with is the fact that the First Order is all of a sudden seemingly as big of a threat as the Empire without any real explanation.

Where did they come from? I have to imagine most people that believed in Empire-type ideals were going extinct when tons of them went down with the Death Star... twice.

Where do they get their funding? Who the hell has got those type of resources, and on top of that would even want to fund pretty much an even bigger Death Star, especially after the last two have been such miserable failures? Along with a massive army?

How big are they actually? They might be 1/4 of the size of the Empire with just better tools at their disposal, which I think would be cool, but the movie never really makes it clear if they're as huge as the Empire once was or smaller. They're just there.

Ect. They just show up and they're like "you need the bad guys so we're the bad guys."

The whole First Order as of now just feels like "the audience wants to see Stormtroopers so here's Stormtroopers" and that's it. But it's more of a problem in presentation than anything. If some more detail was given about their motives and creation, it wouldn't be a problem, and hopefully this will be explored more in VIII and IX. I really hope so, because if not, yeah they're just somehow the Empire again pretty much. Thought we beat those guys pretty good.

There were still plenty of people capable of restarting the villain group. That's basically how it went down in the EU - a whole bunch of fractured organizations, except here it's just the First Order.

Luke force pulled the lightsaber to himself on Hoth without having been taught that was even possible yet. He hadnt met Yoda and only knew the force was something to help you focus. Some of the criticisms aren't even thought out.

Oh damn, Mary Sue confirmed! I mean heck that is literally the perfect equivalent.
 
The only thing I agree with is the fact that the First Order is all of a sudden seemingly as big of a threat as the Empire without any real explanation.

Where did they come from? I have to imagine most people that believed in Empire-type ideals were going extinct when tons of them went down with the Death Star... twice.

Where do they get their funding? Who the hell has got those type of resources, and on top of that would even want to fund pretty much an even bigger Death Star, especially after the last two have been such miserable failures? Along with a massive army?

How big are they actually? They might be 1/4 of the size of the Empire with just better tools at their disposal, which I think would be cool, but the movie never really makes it clear if they're as huge as the Empire once was or smaller. They're just there.

Ect. They just show up and they're like "you need the bad guys so we're the bad guys."

The whole First Order as of now just feels like "the audience wants to see Stormtroopers so here's Stormtroopers" and that's it. But it's more of a problem in presentation than anything. If some more detail was given about their motives and creation, it wouldn't be a problem, and hopefully this will be explored more in VIII and IX. I really hope so, because if not, yeah they're just somehow the Empire again pretty much. Thought we beat those guys pretty good.

First Order is essentially Nazi Germany. After WW1, Germany became a machine that threatened the world. Few would have expected that.

The novels and such go into more detail about the First Order, but essentially it was the Empire that retreated and went into hiding, taking along with it vast amounts of resources and rebuilt itself in secret out in the outter rim of the galaxy.

The movie doesn't really go into the size of the First Order either, we only see one decent sized base, and only one big star ship even, so it's unlikely even as big as the Empire was
 

Pineapple

Member
Luke force pulled the lightsaber to himself on Hoth without having been taught that was even possible yet. He hadnt met Yoda and only knew the force was something to help you focus. Some of the criticisms aren't even thought out.

I think the difference here is that Rey pulled it away from an individual that had trained under Luke, Snoke, and had significantly more experience in the ways of the Force than she did.
 
Luke force pulled the lightsaber to himself on Hoth without having been taught that was even possible yet. He hadnt met Yoda and only knew the force was something to help you focus. Some of the criticisms aren't even thought out.

Well, it did take place in the second movie, after he had already been vaguely initiated into the concepts of the force in the first movie. A gap between movies can sometimes help with the suspension of disbelief, the audience can infer the hero has become more compentent/experienced.
 

Reizo Ryuu

Gold Member
I think the difference here is that Rey pulled it away from an individual that had trained under Luke, Snoke, and had significantly more experience in the ways of the Force than she did.

Please that's not an actual argument is it?
Ren stops a blaster bolt in mid air no problem, and he pulls the soldier who reports losing the droid on jakku to him without any effort.

When he tried to pull the saber he was struggling hard, because had been shot by chewie's deathcannon. This clearly shows at that moment he was in a severely weakened state.
 

RedStep

Member
Calling something a nitpick is dismissive. If it's enough for someone to question and it takes them out of the movie, it's not a nitpick.

What?

So if anybody takes time to question anything, it's not nitpicking? So then, what is nitpicking if vocalizing (or writing) something makes it valid and substantial?

Not all arguments are created equal.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
What a stupid question. You know if something is memorable or not.

I remember the movie pretty damn well, so I don't know why you're so certain it's forgettable. Thanks for the condescension though! Good discourse.


I think the difference here is that Rey pulled it away from an individual that had trained under Luke, Snoke, and had significantly more experience in the ways of the Force than she did.

She also repelled his mental probing. And Snoke's reaction was "She fucking did what?!"

Maybe she's just more naturally in-tuned with the Force than he is.
 

Estocolmo

Member
Maybe that's why he ran away. Both his father and nephew turned to the dark, and he nearly did so when fighting his father. He might be searching for answers on a) whether he will or won't eventually turn as well and b) whether he can somehow prevent it.

And maybe this is how Kylo Ren has Darth Vaders burnt mask in possession, maybe he took it, or Luke gave it to him..
 

neurosyphilis

Definitely not an STD, as I'm a pure.
Its not been stated that she hasn't had any Jedi training. I think Rey was one of the students in the Jedi academy that Luke and Kylo was a part of. I saw the Force awakens a second time and Kylo says "This is the girl I have heard so much about" when he meets Rey inside the Starkiller Base.

And when Kylo reads her mind, he finds an ocean and an island. Maybe its him reading the place where of one of the spot that the Luke Jedi Academy was, where Luke is now hiding.

Mmmph never thought of that. I need to see it again, probably when the Blu Ray releases.
 
But Luke actually had some kind of trading from Ben, even if it was only a little. Unlike Rey with no training at all.

It isn't just about using the Force. It's also about using it to such a degree that he can somehow survive an attack by the greatest star-pilot in the galaxy.
 
What?

So if anybody takes time to question anything, it's not nitpicking? So then, what is nitpicking if vocalizing (or writing) something makes it valid and substantial?

It's all going to be relative. You might find something to be nitpicking. It might be something important to the complainant. Dismissing something as nitpicking is useless. Argue it or not.
 
But Luke actually had some kind of trading from Ben, even if it was only a little. Unlike Rey with no training at all.

All he really got was this:
hqdefault.jpg


Which was really the bare minimum needed. Luke had to teach himself pretty much everything other than jumping and levitation.

Like, Rey being good with a lightsaber makes sense with the staff fighting. Luke? He had to spend some years just winging it.
 

Durden77

Member
There were still plenty of people capable of restarting the villain group. That's basically how it went down in the EU - a whole bunch of fractured organizations, except here it's just the First Order.

First Order is essentially Nazi Germany. After WW1, Germany became a machine that threatened the world. Few would have expected that.

The novels and such go into more detail about the First Order, but essentially it was the Empire that retreated and went into hiding, taking along with it vast amounts of resources and rebuilt itself in secret out in the outter rim of the galaxy.

The movie doesn't really go into the size of the First Order either, we only see one decent sized base, and only one big star ship even, so it's unlikely even as big as the Empire was

Yeah but this stuff needs to be explained/presented better in the movie. In the OT it's clear that the Empire is in a complete state of power, and they even remark on taking over the rest of the Galactic Senate. Also as much as I hate to say it, the core story of Palpatine in the prequels does a decent job of showing how he and the Empire gained so much power. He took over every economic planet in the galaxy.

In TFA, the First Order my as well be a rebel group that are Empire fanboys. Which I would actually be fine with if they actually gave us that context. Nothing is shown or heard about why they have their power, or how big of a threat they actually are besides the Star Destroyer, (which cycles back to why do they have the power to have the ability to build that in the first place), and we're just left assuming it's because they're just the bad guys that "rose from the Empire".

And like I said, they have plenty of time to go into this stuff in VIII and IX, so hopefully they will. If not, I'll be very disappointed and The First Order will end up being flat, uninspired fan service in my eyes. That's great if they talk about it more in the novels and such, but it needs to be in the movies because that's all the majority and I really care about.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Yeah but this stuff needs to be explained/presented better in the movie. In the OT it's clear that the Empire is in a complete state of power, and they even remark on taking over the rest of the Galactic Senate. Also as much as I hate to say it, the core story of Palpatine in the prequels does a decent job of showing how he and the Empire gained so much power. He took over every economic planet in the galaxy.

In TFA, the First Order my as well be a rebel group that are Empire fanboys. Which I would actually be fine with if they actually gave us that context. Nothing is shown or heard about why they have their power, or how big of a threat they actually are besides the Star Destroyer, (which cycles back to why do they have to power to have the ability to build that in the first place), and we're just left assuming it's because they're just the bad guys that "rose from the Empire".

And like I said, they have plenty of time to go into this stuff in VIII and IX, so hopefully they will. If not, I'll be very disappointed and The First Order will end up being flat, uninspired fan service in my eyes. That's great if they talk about it more in the novels and such, but it needs to be in the movies because that's all the majority and I really care about.

I believe there were scenes cut out of the movie that show Leia's determination to do something about TFO and the Republic's inaction on that point.

They probably gave a lot more context to TFO, the Republic and to Leia, and I think we are worse off without them.

I believe they were cut to improve the flow of the movie, but the lack of context for so much in the movie is exactly what contributed to my overall dissatisfaction with it....
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
First Order is essentially Nazi Germany. After WW1, Germany became a machine that threatened the world. Few would have expected that.

The novels and such go into more detail about the First Order, but essentially it was the Empire that retreated and went into hiding, taking along with it vast amounts of resources and rebuilt itself in secret out in the outter rim of the galaxy.

The movie doesn't really go into the size of the First Order either, we only see one decent sized base, and only one big star ship even, so it's unlikely even as big as the Empire was

you put more thought into this post than JJ did into rebadging the empire and calling it a day.

a dumbed down/sci-fi'd up post WW1 political landscape, with the first order filling the role of the fledgling 1920s nazi party in a economically ruined galaxy experiencing disillusion due to a power vacuum, would have been a great platform to world build on. they did fuck all of this in the film, and nobody should give them a pass because some glorified EU author expanded on their lazy scraps.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
you put more thought into this post than JJ did into rebadging the empire and calling it a day.

a dumbed down/sci-fi'd up post WW1 political landscape, with the first order filling the role of the fledgling 1920s nazi party in a economically ruined galaxy experiencing disillusion due to a power vacuum would have been a great platform to world build on. they did fuck all of this in the film, and nobody should give them a pass because some glorified EU author expanded on their lazy scraps.

I prefer the idea of TFO being a North Korea-like hermit state remnant of a crumbled Empire.

The Nazi comparison doesn't really work for me. I guess because they were defeated once and then sought revenge? Hmm.
 
All he really got was this:
hqdefault.jpg


Which was really the bare minimum needed. Luke had to teach himself pretty much everything other than jumping and levitation.

Like, Rey being good with a lightsaber makes sense with the staff fighting. Luke? He had to spend some years just winging it.

Honestly, this scene is the only real bit of Jedi Training we ever see in the original trilogy, if not the series thus far.

All the stuff with Yoda was just workout routine.
 
you put more thought into this post than JJ did into rebadging the empire and calling it a day.

a dumbed down/sci-fi'd up post WW1 political landscape, with the first order filling the role of the fledgling 1920s nazi party in a economically ruined galaxy experiencing disillusion due to a power vacuum, would have been a great platform to world build on. they did fuck all of this in the film, and nobody should give them a pass because some glorified EU author expanded on their lazy scraps.

Actually, that is JJ's explanation.

“That all came out of conversations about what would have happened if the Nazis all went to Argentina but then started working together again?’” Abrams reveals. “What could be born of that? Could The First Order exist as a group that actually admired The Empire? Could the work of The Empire be seen as unfulfilled? And could Vader be a martyr? Could there be a need to see through what didn’t get done?”
 

enigmatic_alex44

Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
Honestly, this scene is the only real bit of Jedi Training we ever see in the original trilogy, if not the series thus far.

All the stuff with Yoda was just workout routine.

LMAO wasn't Luke basically just running around a swamp with Yoda in his backpack? Some "training"
M4oe5vt.gif
 
That's one miltary force, that can oppose the First Order and they didn't even bother at all in their existence to bother finding out where their base was despite it being very easy to. And you call that nittpicking. I'm starting to think the stories you enjoy are plot whole filled trainwrecks.

Just because you like a story it's alright to call bad writing what it is. Most popular actions stories have it in some form, it's not knit picking when the flaws are glaringly obvious. Like the fact the heroes are generally crack shots while the antagonists typically can't aim for shit.

How do you know it was easy? Literally the only person they come into contact with in the entire movie who knows where it is is Poe and technically Rey . BB-8 makes it clear the location is rather classified, The Resistance just like The First Order are purposely trying to hide from each other, it's a big Galaxy, in short neither side knew where each other's base was and neither side wanted the other side to find out. Both were successful at that and both were unable to find the other.

Again the only person who talked to Poe and Rey (and Ren has no reason to believe she knows where it is, and Ren can't extract info from her mind anyway) was Ren, Ren wants Luke Skywalker and doesn't care about the rest, that's not bad writing, that's a a single minded character only giving a shit about a single thing which is 100% in character, and I note that Ren fucking up is literally also part of his character, he's a young guy trying to play the badass leader, he's trying to by Vader and failing at it. Also Poe was highly resisting Ren and the force needed for Ren to extract just the info on BB-8 was so painful it knocked him out, and then the next time we see Poe Finn is rescuing him.

The only reason they find the base is because they exposed themselves by firing Starkiller which allowed the Resistance to find the base (probably by tracking the energy trail of the weapon or something, it's not stated but who cares honestly), this in turn causes the Resistance to expose themselves which allowed The FO to track their Recon team back to the Resistance home base. That was a gamble on the FO's part, they could have destroyed the recon team and thus prevented the Resistance from getting the info on Starlkiller but instead chose to risk it out of confidence that they'd win, ooops....


The level of intense examination can be done to call any team stupid in most movies. The Empire were idiots for not firing on the escape pod in ANH and that was a much more severe action, the entire trilogy happens because R2 and C3-P0 land on Tatooine. If the Empire just says hmm weird an escape pod, no life signs but better not take the chance because that's very out of the ordinary, then Luke never gets the message about Obi Wan, never meets Obi Wan, never meets Han, never saves Leia, never blows up the Death Star, never learns about his father, never meets Yoda, never trains, never convinces his father to return to the light, and thus The Emperor never dies and the Empire doesn't fall.

All because the bad guys let an escape pod pass by them without a thought, would have taken 10 seconds to fire, there's absolutely no character reason for why they didn't.

But, who cares. they didn't so the movie and the OT happened, just like neither side knew where the other were in this so TFA happened
 
Honestly, this scene is the only real bit of Jedi Training we ever see in the original trilogy, if not the series thus far.

All the stuff with Yoda was just workout routine.

Yeah, most of the real training is from expanded universe stuff like Clone Wars and Rebels. Of course, Ahsoka and Ezra's Jedi training makes Force use seem far harder than anything Luke or Rey went through to reach proficiency. Hell, at least Rey believes in the stories of Luke Skywalker. Luke is coming into this mostly clean. That he gets as far as he does is amazing.

Frankly, my guess is Jedi Master Luke would probably still get taken to school by an Old Republic or Clone Wars-era Master.
 
Yeah, most of the real training is from expanded universe stuff like Clone Wars and Rebels. Of course, Ahsoka and Ezra's Jedi training makes Force use seem far harder than anything Luke or Rey went through to reach proficiency. Hell, at least Rey believes in the stories of Luke Skywalker. Luke is coming into this mostly clean. That he gets as far as he does is amazing.

Frankly, my guess is Jedi Master Luke would probably still get taken to school by an Old Republic or Clone Wars-era Master.

And that's why it makes sense imo that he has had difficulty training new Jedi and re-establishing the Jedi.
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh

those two scenarios are nothing like each other.

one is dealing with the socio-political climate that leads to people willingly voting in a despotic, fascist regime, the other exposes JJ's comic book mentality as he treats the nazi party as criminal supervillains who can exist independently of the social conditions that birthed them.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
those two scenarios are nothing like each other.

one is dealing with the socio-political climate that leads to people willing voting in a despotic, fascist regime, the other exposes JJ's comic book mentality as he treats nazi party as criminal supervillains who can exist independently of the social conditions that birthed them.

Ouch. Truth.

TFO isn't based on the Nazis. TFO is based on the Nazis as seen in Indiana Jones :p
 
those two scenarios are nothing like each other.

one is dealing with the socio-political climate that leads to people willingly voting in a despotic, fascist regime, the other exposes JJ's comic book mentality as he treats the nazi party as criminal supervillains who can exist independently of the social conditions that birthed them.

Actually, I was responding directly to your contention that the poster who used JJ's explanation put more thought into it than JJ. The latter part of your post is fan wish fulfillment and fiction, so I didn't think I needed to address it.
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
Actually, I was responding directly to your contention that the poster who used JJ's explanation put more thought into it than JJ. The latter part of your post is fan wish fulfillment and fiction, so I didn't think I needed to address it.

his comment specified that it represented the rise of nazi germany after WWI. not an elite band of super-fascists escaping nuremberg and getting together in uruguay to plot their takeover of the world.
 
his comment specified that it represented the rise of nazi germany after WWI. not an elite band of super-fascists escaping nuremberg and getting together in uruguay to plot their takeover of the world.

Ah, I misread his statement. The Empire is supposed to the rise of Nazi Germany. This is the leftovers.
 
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