Marvels Secret Wars by Hickman & Ribic |OT| Everything ends... Everything begins
- Thread starter Mudcrab
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I just got it off the US store. Haven't read it yet.
Oh my God. That one page of
Doom and Reed
Yeah that's pretty much a perfect ending. Best Marvel event ever in my opinion, they stuck the landing.
basic_text
Member
I couldn't wait. Totally just read a digital copy at work.
I'm not sure where I stand on it all!
So, spoilery thoughts for #9.
T'Challa is badass in this issue.
The dialogue is great.
I really do like that very few people actually properly die, and especially that the rumoured death of Franklin and Valeria was bullshit.
Hopefully now we could have a Future Foundation book with Reed, Sue and the gang exploring the new multiverse? That'd be awesome.
I would also like to see a book titled Reed Richards: Ape Fantastic.
I don't like that Doom comes out as sort of a chump. I accept that Reed might be able to do slightly better, but Doom can only make a crappy Battleworld whereas Reed could remake an entire multiverse? Why would God Doom want to make his dominion so small?
The issue strongly infers that Miles gets his transfer to 616 as a favour from Owen for the hamburger. But then why does Ultimate Reed get the same? The only reading then is that they get to transfer because they are in the chamber at the time this all happens, but that makes Miles' favour to Owen irrelevant.
Are we supposed to infer from T'Challa's time travel that as a result of the reset none of the events in Hickman's Avengers run ever happen and the 8 month ANAD jump is to fill that time in? If so, why do Squadron Supreme remember Namor killing worlds post ANAD?
What *is* going on with Sue? Was she always 616 Sue, and Doom just brainwashed her with false memories? Or was she the Sue of another universe? Or was she just made up at Doom's whim? How does she go back to remembering Reed? Presumably Owen does it in some way, but who's he fixing? 616 Sue? The Sue from a world with no Reed Sue? Making a new 616 Sue? Does it matter when you're god? Does this make Reed any better than Doom?
So Reed and Franklin remake the multiverse in more or less the same way... but they forget to remake the Ultimate Universe? That seems kinda of a dick move. I suppose the alternate reading is Owen really didn't like that burger and did it to spite Miles
All in all, I do like it as a conclusion to Secret Wars as a tale, and the only tonal beat I think it misses is that I really think Reed needed a way to explain why he's able to do so much better than Doom. I'm not sure it has enough room to breath as an explanation to what the fuck happened to remake the universe.
The dialogue is great.
I really do like that very few people actually properly die, and especially that the rumoured death of Franklin and Valeria was bullshit.
Hopefully now we could have a Future Foundation book with Reed, Sue and the gang exploring the new multiverse? That'd be awesome.
I would also like to see a book titled Reed Richards: Ape Fantastic.
I don't like that Doom comes out as sort of a chump. I accept that Reed might be able to do slightly better, but Doom can only make a crappy Battleworld whereas Reed could remake an entire multiverse? Why would God Doom want to make his dominion so small?
The issue strongly infers that Miles gets his transfer to 616 as a favour from Owen for the hamburger. But then why does Ultimate Reed get the same? The only reading then is that they get to transfer because they are in the chamber at the time this all happens, but that makes Miles' favour to Owen irrelevant.
Are we supposed to infer from T'Challa's time travel that as a result of the reset none of the events in Hickman's Avengers run ever happen and the 8 month ANAD jump is to fill that time in? If so, why do Squadron Supreme remember Namor killing worlds post ANAD?
What *is* going on with Sue? Was she always 616 Sue, and Doom just brainwashed her with false memories? Or was she the Sue of another universe? Or was she just made up at Doom's whim? How does she go back to remembering Reed? Presumably Owen does it in some way, but who's he fixing? 616 Sue? The Sue from a world with no Reed Sue? Making a new 616 Sue? Does it matter when you're god? Does this make Reed any better than Doom?
So Reed and Franklin remake the multiverse in more or less the same way... but they forget to remake the Ultimate Universe? That seems kinda of a dick move. I suppose the alternate reading is Owen really didn't like that burger and did it to spite Miles
All in all, I do like it as a conclusion to Secret Wars as a tale, and the only tonal beat I think it misses is that I really think Reed needed a way to explain why he's able to do so much better than Doom. I'm not sure it has enough room to breath as an explanation to what the fuck happened to remake the universe.
My incredibly egotistical "how I would have improved God-Hickman's writing despite being a talentless hack and changed this issue" below...
Reed and Doom's relationship works best when they are equals, except for the fact Reed wins because of his humanity and his love of his family making him stronger. So leverage that - Reed doesn't need to have a flashy plan, but he does have one, so at the crucial moment of explaining why he can do better, T'Challa warps in with the time gem, gives it to Reed, and he uses it to rescue HIS Sue and the kids just before their untimely end. And that would be why Doom couldn't do better, because Reed would have his brilliant *real* little boy and girl in a way Doom did, and they are powerful enough to help him remake the universe in a way Doom could not. I feel like that would have explained why Doom could only remake Battleworld, given Reed a bit more of an actual plan, and made it a bit clearer what was going on with the family. One page would have fixed an awful lot of the problems I have with this issue.
I just bawled after I read that.
Victor getting his face back is definitely a gift from Owen, but I don't know if there's anything in there to support Doom helping Reed bring everything back. I mean, he's right there in ANAD, whereas it appears Reed spends that eight months and considerably longer rebuilding the multiverse.
There's actually a lot of dense storytelling in this book. I think it would have fit in a page, and the rest of the book doesn't really have to change much at all.
There's actually a lot of dense storytelling in this book. I think it would have fit in a page, and the rest of the book doesn't really have to change much at all.
Edit: Sorry I broke tags! Fixed. Hopefully nobody saw it.
I'm very touched by it. Those last couple of pages. I'm so glad that's the message he chose to impart.
Edit: Those are fair points, Mindwipe.
It dawns on me how much better this was than Uncanny X-Men #600. Just... so so much better.
Just to be clear above, there's a lot about this book I liked, I think that it's by far and away the best event for years, and Hickman made this issue stick the conclusion to the story in Secret Wars pretty well given I thought it would be horribly rushed after #8.
I just had a few niggles that are probably things lost in the rewrites tbh...
I just had a few niggles that are probably things lost in the rewrites tbh...
I haven't read the issue in a while, but if you really want to get technical
Silver Surfer is the one that brought everything back after Reed gave him an opening.
38.
That sounds like quite a big deal. I remember seeing that
Eternity
My reading was more
that the release of Eternity is as Franklin and Reed recreate 616, and Silver Surfer merely prevents it all getting fucked up before it even starts tbh.
(Spoilers for SW9 and the end of Last Days of Silver Surfer)
Brian Fellows
Pete Carroll Owns Me
Well that was boring. Then again I hate Reed and the FF so I me not liking this issue is to be expected. At least I'm FINALLY done with Marvel.
my name is ed
Banned
This was probably the first time I've bought a comic as soon as I woke up. It was really great. Dat last line. It's like a happy ending at the end of a horror movie
So, spoilery thoughts for #9.
T'Challa is badass in this issue.
The dialogue is great.
I really do like that very few people actually properly die, and especially that the rumoured death of Franklin and Valeria was bullshit.
Hopefully now we could have a Future Foundation book with Reed, Sue and the gang exploring the new multiverse? That'd be awesome.
I would also like to see a book titled Reed Richards: Ape Fantastic.
I don't like that Doom comes out as sort of a chump. I accept that Reed might be able to do slightly better, but Doom can only make a crappy Battleworld whereas Reed could remake an entire multiverse? Why would God Doom want to make his dominion so small?
The issue strongly infers that Miles gets his transfer to 616 as a favour from Owen for the hamburger. But then why does Ultimate Reed get the same? The only reading then is that they get to transfer because they are in the chamber at the time this all happens, but that makes Miles' favour to Owen irrelevant.
Are we supposed to infer from T'Challa's time travel that as a result of the reset none of the events in Hickman's Avengers run ever happen and the 8 month ANAD jump is to fill that time in? If so, why do Squadron Supreme remember Namor killing worlds post ANAD?
What *is* going on with Sue? Was she always 616 Sue, and Doom just brainwashed her with false memories? Or was she the Sue of another universe? Or was she just made up at Doom's whim? How does she go back to remembering Reed? Presumably Owen does it in some way, but who's he fixing? 616 Sue? The Sue from a world with no Reed Sue? Making a new 616 Sue? Does it matter when you're god? Does this make Reed any better than Doom?
So Reed and Franklin remake the multiverse in more or less the same way... but they forget to remake the Ultimate Universe? That seems kinda of a dick move. I suppose the alternate reading is Owen really didn't like that burger and did it to spite Miles
All in all, I do like it as a conclusion to Secret Wars as a tale, and the only tonal beat I think it misses is that I really think Reed needed a way to explain why he's able to do so much better than Doom. I'm not sure it has enough room to breath as an explanation to what the fuck happened to remake the universe.
Miles gift is that his mother is alive again. Read Spider-Miles!
Yeah, actually I was just rethinking an hour ago and you're right, that works...
LucidMomentum
Member
Also to play off of why I think
Doom wasn't as "good" at it as Reed was is that Doom clearly was afraid of losing what he held dear.
So, he compacted all the Molecule Men into one central location, compacted the universe into one central world, and picked and chose what he felt was worth keeping, and how best to rule it.
Reed / the kids / Owen are doing it as a group project and taking a more scientific, objective approach to it by making universes, worlds, and sending them out to develop on their own with some minor guidance.. Kind of restoring the ones that have ben destroyed, bit by bit. It may not exactly line up with the pre-incursion universes, but it's a good start.
And along the way, Reed / Owen make small changes to improve the quality of life of the people who endured Battleworld. Miles gets his mother back, Reed gets Sue and his family back, Victor gets his face back, etc.
So, he compacted all the Molecule Men into one central location, compacted the universe into one central world, and picked and chose what he felt was worth keeping, and how best to rule it.
Reed / the kids / Owen are doing it as a group project and taking a more scientific, objective approach to it by making universes, worlds, and sending them out to develop on their own with some minor guidance.. Kind of restoring the ones that have ben destroyed, bit by bit. It may not exactly line up with the pre-incursion universes, but it's a good start.
And along the way, Reed / Owen make small changes to improve the quality of life of the people who endured Battleworld. Miles gets his mother back, Reed gets Sue and his family back, Victor gets his face back, etc.
Anyways, loved it. Yeah the ending was a bit abrupt, but maybe later tie ins and ANAD has the guts to expand on the events of Secret Wars 2015/16.
It was so good though, especially the artwork throughout.
I like how
New Avengers starts with them destroying worlds or contemplating it and this ends with them building them. Both Reed and T'Challa are doing things for the betterment of mankind after everything they've been through. They're getting outside help. They don't have all the answers like they thought they did before. They've let go of that fear.
Manmademan
Member
So, spoilery thoughts for #9.
Are we supposed to infer from T'Challa's time travel that as a result of the reset none of the events in Hickman's Avengers run ever happen and the 8 month ANAD jump is to fill that time in? If so, why do Squadron Supreme remember Namor killing worlds post ANAD?
What *is* going on with Sue? Was she always 616 Sue, and Doom just brainwashed her with false memories? Or was she the Sue of another universe? Or was she just made up at Doom's whim? How does she go back to remembering Reed? Presumably Owen does it in some way, but who's he fixing? 616 Sue? The Sue from a world with no Reed Sue? Making a new 616 Sue? Does it matter when you're god? Does this make Reed any better than Doom?
So Reed and Franklin remake the multiverse in more or less the same way... but they forget to remake the Ultimate Universe? That seems kinda of a dick move. I suppose the alternate reading is Owen really didn't like that burger and did it to spite Miles
Couple thiings to clear it up:
no, the events of the run still happened. Sue references being "saved" when the raft exploded, which was the last issue of the run. Reed says he had some "help" with this one, its implied Owen Reece is responsible for preventing the death of Reed's family.
The Sue in secret wars was always an alternate. Not Reed's sue storm. two different people. She only "remembered" seeing him once or twice from Doom's video screens earlier in the event.
The ultimate universe or something VERY close to it still exists, but appears to be destroyed and/or abandoned. it shows up as "ultimate end" in contest of champions.
There are probably a lot of reasons why Reed was better at remaking the multiverse than Doom was- but the obvious one is that Doom felt the need to personally attempt to control everything, and keep it centrally under his command using one "combined" owen reece to do it. This is too much for anyone, even doom- Secret Wars hints more than once that battleworld is barely being held together this way.
Reed instead works in tandem with franklin and owen to design, direct, and rebuild a multiverse that will grow on its own over time.
The Sue in secret wars was always an alternate. Not Reed's sue storm. two different people. She only "remembered" seeing him once or twice from Doom's video screens earlier in the event.
The ultimate universe or something VERY close to it still exists, but appears to be destroyed and/or abandoned. it shows up as "ultimate end" in contest of champions.
There are probably a lot of reasons why Reed was better at remaking the multiverse than Doom was- but the obvious one is that Doom felt the need to personally attempt to control everything, and keep it centrally under his command using one "combined" owen reece to do it. This is too much for anyone, even doom- Secret Wars hints more than once that battleworld is barely being held together this way.
Reed instead works in tandem with franklin and owen to design, direct, and rebuild a multiverse that will grow on its own over time.
Simply Sarah
Member
Right. The whole point in the end was
that Victor was so obsessed with holding on to and protecting the fragments that he saved that he neglected to appreciate how a much better solution was possible. It was basically Reed and Victor having their positions switched from Time Runs Out. Victor (supported by Strange) did his Doom thing and focused on playing God while trying to hold together what remained through his own (borrowed) power and force of will. He used whatever means he determined were required to do this even if he didn't love the solution. Granted, we also know that the last time Victor tried making a universe he did so in his image and it completely blew up in his face, so he was likely afraid of trying his hand at creation again.
Reed, on the other hand, had learned from his prior mistakes that struggling to save a small part of things through any mean necessary just didn't work. He did his Reed thing and decided he could fix everything (and seemingly was right this time) because he's Reed Fucking Richards. He was looking at the bigger picture and for a solution that was good for everyone instead of sorta good enough for a select few. In the end he's working with the help of his family to create something that can function on its own rather than trying to go it alone and playing God.
Reed, on the other hand, had learned from his prior mistakes that struggling to save a small part of things through any mean necessary just didn't work. He did his Reed thing and decided he could fix everything (and seemingly was right this time) because he's Reed Fucking Richards. He was looking at the bigger picture and for a solution that was good for everyone instead of sorta good enough for a select few. In the end he's working with the help of his family to create something that can function on its own rather than trying to go it alone and playing God.
Hearing lots of great things today.
I'm gonna miss this man on Marvel books, at least I'll have his Image work to look forward to.
I'm gonna miss this man on Marvel books, at least I'll have his Image work to look forward to.
Jack Remington
Banned
I mostly liked that. Would have done a few things differently, but overall they're minor squabbles.
As long as he's writing *something* I'm happy, I don't particularly care what it is.
The last panel of SW9 IMO:
it wasn't about Doom helping Reed or whatnot, but I think it's more catharsis from Reed in that he's willing to let go of old rivalries and allow Doom to grow beyond, well, 'Doom' and always relative to Reed in a sense. You see that a lot in Invincible Iron Man, where Doom is actually a pretty good guy.
Jack Remington
Banned
I still think I would have much preferred
Doom voluntarily abdicating his power. I didn't like that Reece turned out to be the ultimate fountain of power with the ability to give and take it away. Felt kind of cheap tbh.
LucidMomentum
Member
Funny how
it took the multiverse falling apart for them to finally set aside their rivalries and grow beyond that. I expect big things from the "new" Victor and Reed.
We knew Owen had a huge part of it though, due to when they explain how Victor created battleworld and took on the celestials with his help.
You should read Serah's post above. I think that's quite a bit of an oversimplification.
SW #9 makes it clear this is really the end to the story Fantastic Four started. Reed thought he could solve everything. And he could or rather, he could figure out the best solution because that's what he does. His mistake was in thinking he could enact it alone. Doom made the same mistake, Reed just realized it for it what it was.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
Gotta say, the thing that shocked me the most about this crossover is, it's the biggest crossover in Marvel History. Look at who was unimportant.
Spider-Man (Peter), Hulk, Most of the Avengers and X-Men.
That rarely if ever happens. Nevermind Black Panther being the first black hero to be a main character in a DC/Marvel company crossover.
Speaking of the Avengers, they straight up failed. And never got redemption for it. A total shocker. The Illuminati turned out to be the biggest winners.
That rarely if ever happens. Nevermind Black Panther being the first black hero to be a main character in a DC/Marvel company crossover.
Speaking of the Avengers, they straight up failed. And never got redemption for it. A total shocker. The Illuminati turned out to be the biggest winners.
Manmademan
Member
I don't think so. i looked at it this way.
Reece was ALWAYS the source of Doom's power- we've known that from the start. Obviously he had the final say in where that power goes. Reece however isn't sane, and doesn't have the creativity or ability to restore creation on his own. in the absence of a better solution, Doom guiding that power was the best option- especially since as we know Strange was given the opportunity FIRST and turned it down.
Reed presented molecule man with a viable option other than the "Battleworld" that Doom had created, and the final conflict was simply to determine whose vision was better for creation. Doom fucked up by letting his rage and emotion get the better of him and flat out admitting that Reed's solution would be superior to anything he could have done- the second that was determined, Reece dismantled "Battleworld" in favor of handing the reins over to Reed.
This was never going to be about fistfights, but ideology.
Reed presented molecule man with a viable option other than the "Battleworld" that Doom had created, and the final conflict was simply to determine whose vision was better for creation. Doom fucked up by letting his rage and emotion get the better of him and flat out admitting that Reed's solution would be superior to anything he could have done- the second that was determined, Reece dismantled "Battleworld" in favor of handing the reins over to Reed.
This was never going to be about fistfights, but ideology.
That rarely if ever happens. Nevermind Black Panther being the first black hero to be a main character in a DC/Marvel company crossover.
I dunno about all THAT, but he was well used.
Palette Swap
Member
^^^^ yeah, Tony and Steve were really there for the Avengers part, which is super weird. This was always more about Reed, Victor and Tch'alla.
I just read it. After so many years and books (almost 150 issues), I'm a bit overwhelmed and I'm probably rambling.
I loved it and I absolutely loved that last page in particular. There are so many echoes and symmetries at work here, it's a very elegant story design, and above all, it works.
Also, I know it's not happening, but I'd totally read a sci-for/super-hero Hickman book about
I just read it. After so many years and books (almost 150 issues), I'm a bit overwhelmed and I'm probably rambling.
I loved it and I absolutely loved that last page in particular. There are so many echoes and symmetries at work here, it's a very elegant story design, and above all, it works.
Looking back at the whole thing, including FF, I love how many themes it carries and concludes:
- it's a conclusion about Reed and his family. Reed being a family man was his defining characteristic among all Reeds.
- it builds on the conclusion to FF, which was pretty meta itself: imagination is a tremendous power, particularly when you're Franklin Richards. It's fitting that he'd be the one rebuilding the Marvel Multiverse. I expect cowboys and dinosaurs.
- Doom is central. I love that the resolution of literally everything hangs on the moment he acknowledges he could have built a better world by letting go. This is a redemptive act. It's not about who throws the better punch or has the best guys on their side. This is about two visions of what the world should be and Victor showing the uncharacteristic humility to admit he could have been wrong, there could have been a better solution. Mind you, this doesn't mean he was wrong all along. If anything, there's a complimentarity at play here: only Doom could have been Rabum Alal and managed to not lose this no-win multiversal game on such a scale. On the other hand, only Reed (and his family) could rebuild from there.
- this also echoes with Reed's "solve everything" original problem. That arc ended on the unsatisfactory conclusion that being a Reed, you had to choose between a family and solutions. Well, guess what, if your family is the Future Foundation, you don't solve everything, you make everything.
- finally, there's the central theme of New Avengers, Everything Dies, as we watched for years the multiverse lose layer after layer through incursions, now we're expanding back, from the singularity of Battleworld to an endless multiverse only bound by imagination. That's a hell of a conclusion.
So yeah, Everything Lives. We knew we'd get there but that was a phenomenal journey.
I'm curious to see how we'll look back at it all, but right now, I feel the whole run was one of the best superhero runs I've ever read. I'm glad I was there.
- it's a conclusion about Reed and his family. Reed being a family man was his defining characteristic among all Reeds.
- it builds on the conclusion to FF, which was pretty meta itself: imagination is a tremendous power, particularly when you're Franklin Richards. It's fitting that he'd be the one rebuilding the Marvel Multiverse. I expect cowboys and dinosaurs.
- Doom is central. I love that the resolution of literally everything hangs on the moment he acknowledges he could have built a better world by letting go. This is a redemptive act. It's not about who throws the better punch or has the best guys on their side. This is about two visions of what the world should be and Victor showing the uncharacteristic humility to admit he could have been wrong, there could have been a better solution. Mind you, this doesn't mean he was wrong all along. If anything, there's a complimentarity at play here: only Doom could have been Rabum Alal and managed to not lose this no-win multiversal game on such a scale. On the other hand, only Reed (and his family) could rebuild from there.
- this also echoes with Reed's "solve everything" original problem. That arc ended on the unsatisfactory conclusion that being a Reed, you had to choose between a family and solutions. Well, guess what, if your family is the Future Foundation, you don't solve everything, you make everything.
- finally, there's the central theme of New Avengers, Everything Dies, as we watched for years the multiverse lose layer after layer through incursions, now we're expanding back, from the singularity of Battleworld to an endless multiverse only bound by imagination. That's a hell of a conclusion.
So yeah, Everything Lives. We knew we'd get there but that was a phenomenal journey.
I'm curious to see how we'll look back at it all, but right now, I feel the whole run was one of the best superhero runs I've ever read. I'm glad I was there.
Also, I know it's not happening, but I'd totally read a sci-for/super-hero Hickman book about
Wakandans in space.
Well...there we are. Done. At last.
I think the ending and how they're constructing the new universes will make a bit more sense when I go back and start reading ANAD Marvel, just so I can see what these new universes actually are.
From what I could understand, things are *mostly* the same but different and there's a few extra Earths in the Solar System now?
From what I could understand, things are *mostly* the same but different and there's a few extra Earths in the Solar System now?
Jack Remington
Banned
I did like the fact that
Reed admitted that Doom had done some good. Wish they'd gone into that more. Reed couldn't do shit to stop the Beyonders.
Palette Swap
Member
Seeing that pleased me, and cemented my belief that Bendis had never read the other Secret Wars books when he wrote that Ultimate End pile of shit. The last issue was incredibly off in its characterization of
Doom, who's just the usual tyrant who robbed everyone of their freedom and thoughts
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